MATT BROWN: Building a studio for $6k, landing a $250k record deal, and working with Jon Anderson

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. And now your host, Eyal Levi. Hey guys, welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi and I am super excited to bring on my friend Matt Brown. If you've been following us, then you know exactly who he is. If you don't, then you're about to learn. He's really one of the most gifted engineers, drummers, techs, human beings, thinkers that I have ever met. This is why I'm so excited to have him on a quick introduction here is that he's the producer, engineer, mixer, head recording engineer at Solar Studios in Orlando. He's an expert drum technician and professional drummer. He works not only with bands in the studio, but also percussion and drum lines for college level performers. Now that intro does not do him justice. I met him maybe around 2013, 2012 when I was making records with my former partners.

(00:01:04):

We always had different drum techs coming in to help us get the right sound either on records I was making with them or on my own. And it was a really frustrating thing for me because most of these guys would sit there and they would tune and tune and tune, and they would just not produce the sound out of the drum that I was describing. They'd give me physics this and physics that, and all these long explanations, but the results would not work. And comes, Matt and I told him what I wanted and he was the first guy to ever take what was in here and help translate it through the drum and then through the speakers every single time. And little by little through working with him, I discovered not only is he a great drum tech who knows how to tune better than anybody I've ever met, but he's a great engineer.

(00:01:57):

He'd be giving me advice on, use this mic, use that mic, move it over, and he'd have great ideas. And then I realized he's a phenomenal drummer too, because I would have him sometimes show the drummer in the band how to play parts and shit was always better with Matt. And when I started doing educational content, when I did my first stop of a recording machine bootcamp in 2014, I thought that Matt should give a lecture on how to get great drum sounds because people are coming to learn how to record from me. And my drum sounds are nothing without Matt Brown. So he gave a lecture. People's minds were blown. That led to him doing more lectures at my bootcamps. And then eventually I brought him on my Creative Live metal recording bootcamp with monuments and people consider that drum section to be maybe the most comprehensive drum course to date.

(00:03:00):

People look at it like a drum tuning bible. So since then, we've made here at URMA course with him called Ultimate Drum Production. That comes out in March or February, and it puts, everything else that we've done in that department is shame. It is the literally most comprehensive drum production course on the planet. And what's great about it is that it doesn't matter what situation you're in, it's not for people with million dollar studios or for people with garbage gear. It's for people who want to learn how to make drums sound in real life the way that they hear them in their head, regardless of their situation. And it shows you exactly how to do that in various scenarios. There's real life scenarios and it is fucking great. And without further ado, I introduce you Matt Brown. So Matt Brown, welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. I just saw you seems like the other day. How are you feeling after that summit?

Speaker 2 (00:04:11):

I'm feeling pretty good. It was exciting. It was a really, really cool time. I didn't realize I was going to enjoy it as much as I did. It was just awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:04:21):

Same here. How's your throat? Mine is just,

Speaker 2 (00:04:27):

It took a couple days to get my voice back for sure. It was definitely tired

Speaker 1 (00:04:32):

Still. So what is it that you enjoyed about it? What were you not expecting to enjoy and what did you enjoy? And I'm wondering, not as a sales pitch for next year, but because I also enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than I expected to. And I think that that was a sentiment felt by everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:04:53):

Yeah. Well, I enjoyed the people. I mean, the guys were awesome. They were really, every single person was just nice and easy to talk to and which is kind of the opposite of what I expected. Most of us just like to be secluded in our rooms by ourselves and very introverted and don't really like to talk to people. But that common thread of why we were all there was definitely the catalyst for some great conversations. So that was really enjoyable.

Speaker 1 (00:05:28):

I think it's the first time in life for a lot of people who do sit behind the computer all day long, secluded working on what they work on. It is the first time in their lives to actually meet, I guess a social peer group.

Speaker 2 (00:05:45):

Yeah. Yeah, it's true. It was very cool. It was a very cool experience. I really enjoyed the presentations. The ones that I got to see where I was at were really cool, really insightful, and I really enjoyed teaching. It was a really enjoying experience to watch people's eyes just open as wide as they could in their mouths escape. After the information that was put out there kind of was proven. My whole class was building up to that final point of, okay, well, what do the drums actually sound like? And as soon as I hit playback on what I had just recorded in front of them to just to watch their minds blow up was awesome. It was a great experience.

Speaker 1 (00:06:38):

One of them told me that he realized that everything he had been taught were lies about gear because you did it all on a barringer. It sounded amazing. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:06:49):

It was literally the whole entire setup that I had, including the laptop, the microphones, the interface, the pre was maybe $3,000 maybe, maybe 3,500 at the most. I mean, some of the microphones were a little bit expensive but not terribly expensive.

Speaker 1 (00:07:09):

What was the most expensive microphone on up there?

Speaker 2 (00:07:12):

I had a pair of tele Funken, M 60 FETs, which those aren't terribly expensive, but they're pretty penny. And the course base really was focused on the source is the most important. So the sources, the drums, the room, the player, the sticks, and the microphones first, all of those things come together to form the source. So it was cool. It was a very cool experience.

Speaker 1 (00:07:44):

Did you get to watch Billy Decker mix?

Speaker 2 (00:07:47):

Yes, about four times.

Speaker 1 (00:07:50):

So four times means, so he did like 24 songs.

Speaker 2 (00:07:55):

I did sit in on his class twice because we had worked out a really cool kind of thing where the tracks that I recorded during my course, Billy took those in and mixed 'em during his course, which was just,

Speaker 1 (00:08:12):

Whoa, I didn't know about that.

Speaker 2 (00:08:13):

That's cool. It was really cool. And it was one of those things, I was just talking to him before we even started the first day and I was like, Hey, I'm going to be recording a song. Do you want to mix it? And he's like, sure, bring it all over. I can fit two songs in an hour while telling everybody what to do. And it was awesome. I got to watch it twice in two different days. There's minor differences in the setup that I used, and it was great. He actually asked me for the samples that I cut the second day. So I sent the samples from that session that I did that morning with everybody there. I just sent those to him and he started mixing with 'em yesterday, I believe. So he was like, I'll send you a track once I use them.

Speaker 1 (00:08:59):

Yeah, he's sure to include things that people give him. I've noticed. I gave him my drum forge pack, the ELE, and he made a point of putting my Toms or my kick on some country record just to prove a point. That's awesome. So your samples will end up on some big country record and you will get a text with a video message on it soon, including that?

Speaker 2 (00:09:32):

I can't wait. I mean, I was not to say that I was shocked. I mean, it is. That was my first time recording with that Beringer interface and preamp. I bought that as a backup mobile rig in case I needed to do something really quick. So it is been sitting and not even being used for almost a year, and I was like, oh, this is a perfect opportunity to test this thing out. And I mean, not that I was going to be shocked, but I was kind of shocked at the quality that the Beringer had. It was like, okay, this actually sounds really great. And since then I've used those samples on a track as well, and it's like, man, this sounds really great. Unexpected benefit.

Speaker 1 (00:10:14):

Were people, I mean, I know everyone was respectful, but were people talking shit at all in advance on like, oh fuck, he's going to use a Beringer?

Speaker 2 (00:10:24):

No. Well, I didn't hear any of that. I definitely saw some people that were like, what? A little confused thinking that this was going to be about.

Speaker 1 (00:10:34):

What the hell did I pay for fly all the way from Australia for,

Speaker 2 (00:10:38):

I flew all the way from Spain to watch this guy use a beringer.

Speaker 1 (00:10:43):

Fuck. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:10:44):

But see, that was kind of the point of the course is preamps. I mean, as you know, because when we did those, the preamp shootouts here at my studio, it was shocking how minimal the difference was between a really nice $4,000 preamp and $150 preamp. The difference was so minuscule that it was just a matter of taste, and most people aren't even going to be able to hear it. So that's kind of what the point was of the course is you get the source and then the last part of the chain doesn't even matter. It doesn't even matter. It makes minimal difference on your overall sound. So

Speaker 1 (00:11:29):

Speaking of source did, I mean, you got a long, long history of getting sources and that was ingrained in you as a kid, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 (00:11:41):

Yeah, it definitely was. So my dad was a drummer, and so I was just born into drums to begin with. I started playing when I was three, and he had a studio in our house when I was a kid. And so I used to not only play my drums in the living room, but go out to the studio and play his drums. And that was my first studio experience playing to the Dukes of Hazard record when I was four years old.

Speaker 1 (00:12:10):

Were you more into that than toys?

Speaker 2 (00:12:12):

Oh, yeah. I mean, I had the toys that I liked, but Legos and anything I could build stuff with was great. But I mean, it was like my life was riding my big wheel building with Legos and playing drums. And then when I got older, it became, instead of riding the big wheel, it was riding a skateboard, Legos and drums.

Speaker 3 (00:12:36):

Those

Speaker 2 (00:12:37):

Were basically the components of my, and then drawing, I used to draw a lot too, but those components were basically my whole entire childhood. So the drum thing had always been there and it came really naturally to me. So it was fun, and it's never playing, has never been a going to work, and I hate this type of thing. It's always been very enjoyable, which just makes you want to get better.

Speaker 1 (00:13:10):

Did you any chance feel a kinship at all with Kane C Chico?

Speaker 2 (00:13:14):

Yeah, a little bit. I didn't get to talk to him all that much. Everybody wanted to talk to him a lot. But I mean, yeah, I get it, man. Both,

Speaker 1 (00:13:23):

He grew up in a similar environment.

Speaker 2 (00:13:25):

We both grew up in a recording studio. His is a lot more extravagant and a lot more high profile than mine was. Hollywood, for sure. Hollywood. Hollywood. But yeah, I mean, it's interesting. There's a couple things that I kind took away from being in the environment of a recording studio while I was learning how to play my instrument. And the biggest takeaway from that was that I saw that every musician that would come in, just like every voiceover talent that would come in, they all had their own sound. They all had their own voice literally. And musically, they all had a thing that they did well, and

Speaker 1 (00:14:10):

You noticed this as a kid?

Speaker 2 (00:14:11):

Yeah, I noticed it as a kid. It was like, oh, this guitar player doesn't play the same sounds. He doesn't sound anything like that last guitar player that was in. And so my development of my drumming not only as a player, also encompassed what do my drums sound like? And so that was a whole different study, a path that I don't think a lot of drummers take. They don't really pay attention to it. They're more

Speaker 1 (00:14:42):

So you mean what do my drums sound like in order to compliment what this person's musical voice is?

Speaker 2 (00:14:49):

Well, no. More of the finding my own voice and to the point where I can hear a recording. And this has happened to me a couple times because I've been worked for Hire on People's records and I'll hear a song on the radio and I'm like, man, these drums sound pretty good, and I like what this player's doing. And then it sounds way too familiar and all of a sudden it'll click. It's like, wait a second, and I'll go back through my library of songs that are recorded and it's me. It's like, oh,

Speaker 1 (00:15:23):

Okay, so you meant every player that's coming in has a unique voice? I must have one too.

Speaker 2 (00:15:29):

Exactly. And so part of developing that voice to me was not just the notes. And I think a lot of drummers get caught up in just the notes, and that's where it ends. That's where they think their voice, voice as a musician ends at how many notes they can play and how fast they can play and how groovy it is. And then maybe it extends into their symbol choices a little bit. But most people stop at the learning process of defining your voice in the instrument itself. Why do you use a certain drum set or snare drum, and why do you use those heads and how do you tune the drum? A lot of drummers don't really pay attention to that stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:16:16):

So you think that all that stuff is what goes into a drummer's voice?

Speaker 2 (00:16:20):

I think all, yeah. It's not just the notes. You play it. It's how you hit the drum. It's the heads you choose, the tuning you choose the drums, you choose the symbols, you choose how you hold the stick. All of that stuff is in a player's voice to me. And the really iconic drummers that everybody knows, they have a signature sound. Even if somebody else was to sit behind their kit, it still wouldn't be them. You could sit any, and I am sure some people have seen this at Nam every year where they do the Bonzo Bash where they play a bunch of Led Zeppelin songs and different drummers come in and play on a Bonum kit that is set up and tuned like Bonham's Kit was. And every single drummer that comes up there and plays, they all sound completely different. And these are all top tier drummers as well, and they all have their own voice, but that just proves, it's not just about the notes you play, it's about the little things, the details, just like with guitar players, how you hold the pick and the angle of the pick hitting the string, how that defines your voice as a guitar player.

(00:17:39):

It's the same thing with drums. And I just took it a step further to where it's like, okay, well how do I get my drums to sound the best regardless of the player?

Speaker 1 (00:17:51):

Interesting.

Speaker 2 (00:17:51):

I want my drums to have a certain sound to where it doesn't matter who's playing them, they will sound good.

Speaker 1 (00:17:57):

So you created an inanimate clone of yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:18:01):

Yeah. I mean, but mean, here's the thing is, as you know, it's still how I hit the drum is how I hit the drum. And it doesn't matter. It'll still sound different

Speaker 1 (00:18:13):

When we're cutting a record. There's a reason for why no matter who the drummer is, I ask you to take the sample hits

Speaker 2 (00:18:21):

So you don't wear out the drummer.

Speaker 1 (00:18:25):

It's one of the reasons.

Speaker 2 (00:18:27):

Well, yeah. I mean, I get it mean. That was part of my development.

Speaker 1 (00:18:32):

Was this a conscious thing though?

Speaker 2 (00:18:35):

I mean, yes. Mean part of it stems from the fact that where most people would play to records in their garage, which I did a lot of that. I did a lot of garage playing to Rush and yes, and Huey Lewis and the News and the Police and the Top 40 Radio, whatever was on, I would literally play for hours in my garage. There's a lot of that involved in developing your chops and that side of your voice. But I was fortunate enough to where some of that time playing to records was with my dad in a studio where we had the whole kit micd up and we would go take turns playing to a track off a Steve Wynwood record, and then come back and listen to it how you played versus the track. And then that led me to study the sounds that the drummers had on records.

Speaker 1 (00:19:31):

Take a second to just let people know that your dad's not just like some Yoel with a shitty four track or

Speaker 2 (00:19:39):

Something. No, no, no, not at all. He's had a professional career. He's owned, well right now he has two studios. He's got a larger studio in his house, which is a music facility that has a large tracking room and an ISO booth that's big enough for a drum kit as well as five one surrounds mixing set up. And I mean, it's legit U Phonics console. The room was designed by Rob Rosati of Ti Acoustics. It's legit. And then he's got another, a secondary studio that's a voiceover house, and he's owned his own studio since 1990. Before that, he was the house engineer for Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, which is a huge publishing company that used to own SeaWorld, and he did all of their in-house voiceover production stuff. And before that we lived in Jacksonville at a studio in the garage that converted the garage into a studio and had been recording bands out of there as well. So I mean, his history is long and rich, and he's one of those guys that if you know him in town, you know him as one of the best engineers to put out work. But he does so much work in a field that most musicians don't even know about that nobody would know who he was unless you knew him through me or met him at his studio type of a thing.

Speaker 1 (00:21:11):

I met him once because he was dropping off a drum that we were renting from him.

Speaker 2 (00:21:15):

Right. Yeah, he's an encyclopedia man. I mean, he really is. I noticed he's an encyclopedia. And even this morning I went over there to show him my new microphone and kind of talked to him about he's in the final project. Well, he's just sent a record out to mastering, and he's been keeping me in the loop of the process because the artist, he doesn't have a huge budget and had a friend that does mastering in New York, and so he's keeping me in the loop of the thing. So I was talking to him about that and the microphone, and even in that conversation, I walked away from it going, man, I never thought about that type of approach to a mix. And it is really cool. I mean, very beneficial that I have that my father is an encyclopedia of that stuff, doing the same thing that I do. Well, I mean, I'm doing the same thing that he does.

Speaker 1 (00:22:14):

Definitely, definitely rubbed off. Did he impose it on you

Speaker 2 (00:22:18):

At all? Not at all. I mean, he never showed me how to play drums. He just showed me how to work the record player.

Speaker 1 (00:22:27):

Because you asked,

Speaker 2 (00:22:29):

Yeah, I wanted to play to records, and he's like, here's how you play to records. And he never imposed on me anything. Him and my mother were just very supportive of everything that I wanted to do, and it just kind of stuck. And I guess they saw the natural gravitational pull that I had towards music and just encouraged it along the way. And then how I got into the studio side of things is I was working my first job at, well, I wanted to start working a job. I wanted to pay for a car. And so when I was 15, he is like, I can use some help editing this voiceover stuff. So I started then and then he bought Pro Tools when it first came out, and that was the beginning of that for me. And it was a little bit laborous in my teen years because I was sitting in a studio by myself editing dialogue for hours and hours and hours on end, and most of it in a foreign language that I did not really understand. So you're listening for technicalities there. You're listening for clicks and pops and breaths and plosives and making sure that the pacing matches what needs to be on the paper, and it's a very technical job. So as a kid,

Speaker 1 (00:23:51):

So that's what happened to your teen years?

Speaker 2 (00:23:53):

Yeah, I spent basically 15 to about 19, 20 doing that as my part-time job while going to school.

Speaker 1 (00:24:03):

Well, most people look back at those years as the years they got laid, the most that they scored the most touchdowns,

Speaker 2 (00:24:12):

Everything

Speaker 1 (00:24:13):

Happened. And you sat there

Speaker 2 (00:24:15):

Editing

Speaker 1 (00:24:16):

Foreign language stuff,

Speaker 2 (00:24:18):

Legal

Speaker 1 (00:24:19):

Documents or something?

Speaker 2 (00:24:20):

Yeah, it was learning how to speak Spanish, and I walked away from it with very little knowledge of any Spanish at all, but I can kind of read it. Yeah, I mean, that was the job that I had. I did one other job besides, besides music period ever

Speaker 1 (00:24:40):

In your

Speaker 2 (00:24:40):

Life? Well, a musical recording ever in my life. I've had one other job, and I was a bag boy at Publix when I was 16

Speaker 1 (00:24:48):

Because Bet that was fun.

Speaker 2 (00:24:49):

Yeah, it was one of those where the studio was a little slower and my dad's like, well, you got to pay for this car insurance. So I've forced, I went and got a job at Publix and bag groceries for eight months at part-time, and it was horrible and I hated it and I hated it a lot more than I hated the editing foreign language at the time. So the choice became really clear, okay, I can make more money and edit this foreign language, or I can work at Publix grocery store, which was not fun.

Speaker 1 (00:25:26):

Did you kind of promise yourself that would never happen again?

Speaker 2 (00:25:30):

No. No. I never made that promise. I just kind of was like, Hey, if I can find a way to do music or this other skill that I now have, which is running pro tools and recording and editing, if I can do either one of those two things, I'll be fine. And I'm sure there's lots of work here. Being Orlando, there's a ton of work with the theme parks for players. There's a lot of work for, my dad's studio is super busy and there's a lot of studios here now. So the opportunity to support myself was always there. I just had to really want to do it. So that gave me the drive to become good at drums and to become good at editing so that I always had one or the other that I could do to pay bills and afford to live on my own and be a real adult. And that just turned into wherever I am now. It is one thing led to the next, led to the next, and now here,

Speaker 1 (00:26:40):

Those are two skills that I feel like when people say that going into music or audio is kind of a, I don't know what the word is, kind of like an unstable choice or risky.

Speaker 4 (00:26:56):

Yes,

Speaker 1 (00:26:57):

Risky. If I was your uncle and I was like, son, you don't want to do that. I really do think that a good counter is, well, I'm going to become a badass editor and badass drummer,

Speaker 3 (00:27:12):

And

Speaker 1 (00:27:12):

If you do those two things and you don't smell bad or something and you don't have a drug problem, you'll probably always be employed as long as you're in an area where those services are needed.

Speaker 2 (00:27:29):

Right. Yeah, I mean, that is the key. I think the location of the location here was a big part of that development and that ability to do those jobs for a living. I think there's only one other place in the world that's like Orlando, or at least in the US in the sense that it has a lot of opportunities to work in a theme park environment, which is, it's not huge money, but it's consistent money when you get in. And besides Disney, we have SeaWorld and Universal, and each one of those has multiple parks, and there's groups in every single one of those parks, at least one that has a drummer, if not seven groups that have a drummer. So there was a lot of opportunity to play with the parks. Also being here, there's also a lot of opportunity for editors, for especially dialogue editors. There's for a little bit, nine 11 kind of changed my playing outlook in the theme park world at least because when nine 11 happened, everybody freaked out and especially Disney freaked out because people weren't going to travel as much. And the tourism definitely took a hit after nine 11

Speaker 1 (00:28:50):

A little bit.

Speaker 2 (00:28:51):

And part of that hit was letting go of some of the bands that I was working for at Disney. So that forced me to go back to my studio thing. And at the time my dad had hired, because I was busy playing full-time for the most part, my dad had hired somebody to do the job that I used to do, so he didn't have a place for me. So I had to get out there and find another gig. And the only other besides playing is I have another skill of Pro Tools that I've been working on since 1991, and here it is 2001 and I have 10 years of Pro Tools experience. I've mixed three records at home on my crappy iMac with Pro Tools Free eight channels at a time. And I just decided to open the phone book and start cold calling recording studios.

(00:29:45):

And I did, and I got down to the S'S and I found this one I'd never heard of, and I gave them a call and they were a radio and television production house. So I called 'em and I said, Hey, I'm a pro tools editor, audio engineer, just calling to see if you need anybody. And they didn't need anybody at all. They were all stocked up, staffed up. But when I told 'em that I had been working on Pro Tools since version one, they were like, well, come by and we'd like to talk to you. And I had lunch with the owners and the other engineers. They gave me a test, which was basically assemble this radio commercial. You have an hour to do it

Speaker 1 (00:30:31):

In Russian.

Speaker 2 (00:30:32):

Yeah, right. No, it was actually in English, which was like, okay, this is a nice change. But the test was assemble this radio, produce this radio commercial, follow the script, here's our music library. You can search it on the computer here, and you have an hour to do it. And it was like a 62nd spot, and it included editing the vocals and putting all the sound effects in mixing it and doing a final bounce of it. And I finished the whole thing in 33 minutes, which they were shocked because one of their engineers that they had working for them there couldn't do that in 30 minutes. So I basically, I didn't force them anything. They just saw that I was good and they built a control room for me and added,

Speaker 1 (00:31:21):

It's funny how that works.

Speaker 2 (00:31:23):

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (00:31:25):

Just out of curiosity.

Speaker 2 (00:31:26):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:31:26):

So it sounds like the ground fell out from under you a little bit because of nine 11 and for a lot of people, and that's a common thing in lots of industries that you're seeing it in YouTube now with a lot of video content is now getting demonetized. And so suddenly people who were doing great suddenly overnight, it all changed. Or you play in a band called As I Lay Dying, and the next day your front man gets arrested, and then the band is look, point being that stuff can change from one day to the next, and then suddenly you source of income or Hey, my friend Josh Newell, not to get Morbid was working for Lincoln Park for 10 years. One day the guy's dead, which is RIP, but life happens out of curiosity, when life happened and all of those bands that you were playing with basically got fired, so you hit the streets and got yourself work. How many people that you knew contemporaries from back then did the same thing, and how many people were just like, life's too hard. The universe is conspiring against me. This industry is all a racket, bro,

(00:32:52):

I'm out.

Speaker 2 (00:32:55):

I mean, here's the thing is honestly, I was playing with guys that were significantly older than me. One of the bands that I was playing in, almost everybody there was at least 15 years older than me.

Speaker 1 (00:33:09):

So you must've been what, 21, 22?

Speaker 2 (00:33:11):

I was in 2001. I was 25, 26, 26.

Speaker 1 (00:33:17):

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (00:33:18):

So I was still young.

Speaker 1 (00:33:19):

I've been playing. So they were like 40.

Speaker 2 (00:33:21):

Yeah, they were in their forties. They all were married with kids. It was a completely different thing. And I was a freelance musician for the park. So I basically subbed in for all these guys, all the full-time guys that wanted to take time off for whatever reason. So I had a little bit of a luxury in the fact that I could change up who I was playing with on a regular basis, and I could also work more days without hurting the company. Basically any of these full-time guys, if they picked up an extra day at the time, it was an overtime for the company, whereas me not being hired for me, it was just a sixth day at the same rate. So I was able to juggle a lot more gigs that way, and it gave me some freedom, but at the same time, it instilled into me the take all the work you can get aspect of a freelancer, which has, I mean, that's all I've ever done is freelance. So when a gig falls through for me, I know a lot of people that in that same era were just freaked out and they just drowned in their miserableness and were legitimately scared, which they should be. They had a lot more bills to worry about than I did. I was just a kid. Well,

Speaker 1 (00:34:41):

I mean, I think it's perfectly fair to be scared.

Speaker 2 (00:34:45):

Yeah, totally. Totally. But for me, I was scared for an hour. The first hour that I found out that band I was playing at the time, I was playing with four bands and two of the bands were let go, and then one of the other gigs that I was doing there on property, I walked away from, I quit because I couldn't stand the guy who was, it was a contracted group, and I couldn't stand the promoter. He was from Italy, and he was a complete and total jerk, and he owed me money, so I quit one. Two of the other bands got fired, and then the third band group that I was working with, which employed like, God, I can't remember, something like 30 drummers a night for Their Parade. That for me became a little bit like I was not very happy there. So to walk away from the gig was not difficult for me, and I was worried for an hour, but after that, it was just like, okay, I'll just find something else. Describe that hour. It was just a lot of, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? How am I going to pay for my apartment? How am I going to pay for this? A lot of those typical questions that everybody would have when they had the rug pulled out from underneath them.

Speaker 1 (00:36:06):

I have to admit something. I think it happens not just when you have the rug pulled out from under you. At least for me, right after the summit, which I got home, I got home on Sunday or Monday and was like, what an unbelievable event. I can't believe we've come this far. I can't believe it. Can't believe it. Fuck. What if it all goes away? What if we, it all falls apart tomorrow? What if we can't do better? What if that was the highlight of life? What if for a 30 minute or 45 minute little spell, and then I just got right back to work? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:36:48):

I mean, that's the thing is I think getting to work is just how you do it. I think dwelling on something is not to get too conceptual here, but if you, psychologically, if you sit there and dwell on something, you make that a reality. And I've always kind of lived under the idea, if I'm going to make my own reality, I'm going to make it what I want to make, what I want it to be, instead of, well, the universe is dealing this to me and I have no choice. It's like, no, I have a complete choice and wherever I want to go, whatever I want to do and however I want to get there, and it's just a matter of whether I want to do that or not. And so losing a gig for me was, I've never really been worried about losing gigs. It's just like, okay, well, one's gone. That one's done. What's the next thing I can do? And I would just get out there and hustle. And that's the last time I really had, I mean, well, that's not the last time I had to do it with this studio, with the studio, solar studio that I'm in now. I had freelanced with Mike,

Speaker 1 (00:37:59):

The one that we filmed your drum course,

Speaker 2 (00:38:01):

The one that I'm in right now, and that we filmed the drum course in. I had worked freelance for the owner of this building and the studio since 1998, on and off here and there. And because of his connections in the classic rock world, I was able to work with Pat Traver and Liberty DeVito, and there's a lot of guys I don't even remember, but there's records sitting up in the wall. I don't even remember recording. But throughout that time, I was in and out with the studio. I did a Felix, the Cat cartoon that was huge in Japan. A lot of different things with this studio, but the same, I mean, this whole starting all over or looking for the next gig has happened to me several times. And the last time it happened to me, which led to where I am right now, was in 2012, I had been a touring musician with Brian Howell from Bad Company starting around 2008 after being hired to play on his record. And so I played on the record, Brian asked me to join the live band. I did that and was with him for almost two years. And that was mostly weekend, flyout date type touring, a lot of fairs and whatever bad company plays.

(00:39:29):

As well as during the week, I would work my theme park gigs, and then I'd fly out on the weekends and play the gigs. And then the band, 10 years from Knoxville, Tennessee, who has that song, wasteland is their big hit. And they were looking for a drummer because their drummer had moved to lead guitar when guitar, their lead guitar player left the band. So the drummer, who was the main songwriter anyway, and a great guitar player, he is like, I'll just play guitar. So they were looking for a new drummer. They were out on tour with Shine Down, which is a band that I cut almost all the demos for before they were Shinedown and pointed them in the direction of Barry, who's their current drummer, who's a college buddy of mine, Barry. And all the guys in Shinedown was like, well, Matt Brown is a great, I don't know if he has a gig or not, but he would be perfect fit. And so I got that gig as a result of them recommending me and landed it with a phone call without them even hearing me play, just because I was recommended so highly by the guys in Shinedown. And so I was with 10 years from 2010 to about 2000, the beginning of 2012, somewhere in April, I think.

(00:40:45):

And then they went in to record their record. And of course, with the songwriter being a drummer and guitar player, he took over the duties. Well, he decides after they record the record that he wants to play drums again. So I was left once

Speaker 1 (00:41:00):

Again. See you later, Matt Brown.

Speaker 2 (00:41:01):

Yeah. He's like, unless you know how to play guitar, we don't have a job for you. So I was once again left without a gig. So at that time, I had turned to this studio here, which was open. Well before that. He had started sending me songs from the record to start learning, because before the record came out, we were going to do a tour to start promoting the record, and then the record would drop. So I was getting rough mixes and learning the songs and needed a place to rehearse. So I contacted Mike, who's the owner of this building, and he was in China doing a lot of work in China for years and years and years. But he's like, yeah, the place is not being used. So I was able to set up my drums here in practice, and when I lost the gig with 10 years, I basically was like, I think I can get this studio back up and running. And so I did. I cleaned it up, cleaned up the studio, got the computer, which was just in shambles. I got it back running and the pro tools up and running and started recording some bands in here. And after doing a little bit of work in the studio and getting my feet kind of back into the studio thing, I quickly realized that I could turn this into something a lot better if the studio looked and sounded better.

Speaker 3 (00:42:28):

So

Speaker 2 (00:42:29):

I talked to Mike and I was like, listen, I think I can remodel the studio for $4,000, which is like pennies, especially when you see what this place looks like now.

Speaker 1 (00:42:41):

Yeah, the place looks great.

Speaker 2 (00:42:42):

$4,000

Speaker 1 (00:42:43):

Is pennies for a studio renovation.

Speaker 2 (00:42:45):

Yeah. I mean, overall, the whole thing costs $6,000 with the flooring I misb budgeted when it came to the flooring. But everything else, all the acoustics, the wood, the finish, I mean, everything that was in this place I built, I designed, and I did it for $4,000, and I did it on my off time when I wasn't working at the theme parks. So I was able to live really tightly. I budgeted to where I could live off of basically $700 every two weeks while I, wow. Yeah. So I would work a couple days a week, two days a week, maybe pick up a gig here and there to cover the holes, but do two days a week there, and then work and build and construct the studio four or five days a week, and had a shoestring budget that I was working personally living off of with food and rent and all that. But I was able to spend most of 2000, well, it took me, I started it in February of 2013, the remodel, and I finished it in September of 2013. I only got help from a couple people. I couldn't lift giant sheets of plywood by myself. So I had a couple guys come in and help me put up some of the walls and stuff like that. But overall, I did everything.

Speaker 1 (00:44:13):

So, okay, real quick. That is an incredible budget. How did you figure out how to do it? Not only write, but do it right for so cheap? Because, man, I haven't built a studio in a while, but I've been involved with some studio builds over the years. Pricey. It doesn't begin to cover it.

Speaker 2 (00:44:37):

Yeah. I helped my dad build two studios before this, and one of 'em was one that he designed, and I was a little younger then, so I was in high school, so I didn't help out as much as I could. I just wasn't strong enough most of the time. And then the second studio, his big studio now, my grandfather and my brother and him built the whole place. And that was a legit blueprints, the whole nine yards. And that took us two years to build. So I remember what went into the design aspect from how we were building that. And this building that I'm in now has had good guts. Basically I had a nice size live room, and then the control room was almost as big as the live room and the wall dividing the two was already there with some glass. So the structure was there, but when it came to getting off of the building, the studio out and not having it drywalled, I did a lot of research, man. I did hours and hours of research on acoustics, on materials, where to get the materials in town, what was the cheapest way to do the acoustic treatments and build the things I wanted to build in the studio. And luckily there was some materials left over here that I could repurpose, and it was a lot of research in order to do that.

Speaker 1 (00:46:05):

I guess the point is just that you don't have to have a million dollars to have a really nice studio.

Speaker 2 (00:46:10):

No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (00:46:11):

I've been to your studio. We recorded ultimate drum production there.

Speaker 2 (00:46:15):

It's

Speaker 1 (00:46:16):

A nice place. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:46:17):

It really is. It's as nice as, and

Speaker 1 (00:46:18):

Especially considering $6,000.

Speaker 2 (00:46:20):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's as nice as it could be without gutting the thing and starting all over. Honestly, if I had 20 grand to do it, it would've been a little bit better, but

Speaker 1 (00:46:33):

Okay, fine.

Speaker 2 (00:46:34):

I mean, ultimately my job was the problems that the studio had before acoustically were easily solved by just retreating everything. Taking the studio as a whole and looking at it as an empty slate versus trying to make something sound better by hanging stuff on the walls. I tried that. It didn't work. The room needed an overhaul. The guy who built it before was not a studio designer, and they kind of took the old school approach of like, well, if I put carpet on the walls, that'll help knock off, absorb some of the high frequencies, which it did, but it also made it sound like a box. So for me, it was like, okay, I just need to redesign the acoustics of this room. And I lucked out, man, I scoured every Home Depot looking for specials on wood. So if one thing was on sale, it was like, oh, is there enough of this here to do what I want to do? Yes, there is. Alright. Then I'm, all of the oak that's in my live room was on sale for 50% off, and they just happen to have two pallets full of it. And it was,

Speaker 3 (00:47:46):

How

Speaker 2 (00:47:46):

Much do I need? I need all of this except for one sheet, and it would cover my whole room. And it was like, okay, I saved 50% on that material. That drastically changed my budget, and I was able to take a little bit more money and put it into the absorption material, the 7 0 3 and stuff like that. So Andrew Wade, I talked to him about it a little bit when he was designing his studio, and he kind of approached it the same way of, how can I get the best sounding rooms for the lowest amount possible by researching alternative means of acoustic treatments?

(00:48:23):

But that, I mean, all of that was me putting my foot down saying, okay, I want to reaffirm myself as an engineer, as a producer, as a studio drummer. I want to put my foot down almost five years of touring people. They didn't know I was home anymore. I started from a blank slate. I had to land another theme park. I mean, luckily I had a theme park gig that kind of was let me go on hiatus. And then when I got back and I was like, okay, I can take, but that was only two days a week. So

Speaker 1 (00:48:55):

It's interesting that you say this because I know a lot of guys who, they had a studio business and they toured, and then they came back and they lost their clients, or they had a studio business and stopped doing it for a while. They had kids and stopped for a while and now want to come back, but they don't have the momentum they had before and they feel lost. And here you are saying, I was out of it for five years and did it.

Speaker 2 (00:49:25):

Yeah. I mean, you just have to do it. What's funny is those five years, I didn't do anything except for play drums in the studio. I would still get calls to play on people's records and occasionally would pick up a session while I was on the road on an off day, that type of thing. So I was still in recording, but I wasn't doing the recording. So that for me, after five years was like, okay, I need to brush it off and kind of hone my skills. And so much had changed. So much had changed from 2006 to 2012. I mean, the studio, the whole atmosphere of the studio, not just,

Speaker 1 (00:50:11):

It is completely

Speaker 2 (00:50:12):

Different. It's completely different. The landscape is completely different because now all of a sudden there's a lot more affordable gear. That

Speaker 1 (00:50:20):

2006 was almost like the tail end of another era.

Speaker 2 (00:50:24):

Yeah, it really was. I mean, to put things in perspective, when I came back to the studio, we had a Control 24, the first version, and that was our preamps. That's all we had is a control 20. We had an Avalon 7 37 and a Control 24 and Pro Tools seven. That was when I came back here into this room in 2012.

Speaker 1 (00:50:47):

Here's a 2006 perspective. My death metal band had gotten signed a Roadrunner, no track record really. I personally was sent to England for three weeks to watch Colin Richardson mix in a Neve room for three weeks in London, paying full price to the London studio, plus 35 grand for the mix.

Speaker 2 (00:51:13):

Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:51:13):

That's some 2006 shit.

Speaker 2 (00:51:15):

Yeah. Well, when I was signed, I was in a band that in two, I think it was 2002. Yes, it was tail end of 2000. Yeah, 2002. I was in a band that was put together by Tony Battaglia, who's a producer that produced Mandy Moore and nsync and the Shinedown record and stuff like I was his session drummer. So he put together a band with some guys from Jacksonville that Pete Thornton, who's another producer had, he was working out of studios up there, and Pete did the original Limp Bizkit demos and stuff like that. So he was working with two songwriters out of Jacksonville, him and Tony paired up, and we kind of put together this Jacksonville, Orlando super group type of thing without even playing a gig just off of our demos and showcases. We landed, the band was put together in February. We landed a record deal with RCA in August, and we never even played a show.

Speaker 1 (00:52:25):

Amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:52:25):

We never even played a live show in front of real people until after we had our record deal. Amazing. And just to give you an insight on the budget, granted Tony had some good lawyers on his side working. Our first record budget was $250,000.

Speaker 1 (00:52:45):

Jesus.

Speaker 2 (00:52:45):

And it was an exponential deal. So the second record, 500, the third record, 1 million, the fourth record, 2 million, an exponential budget like that. And we were signed for a seven record deal. And the seventh record, the budget was something insane, like $16 million or something like that. So I mean, I still have that contract, and I look at it and I'm like, man, this is incredible. We had $250,000 budget for the record. We had a hundred thousand dollars grand upfront signing bonus. And then the crazy thing is a month

Speaker 1 (00:53:22):

We didn't get anything like that, but we were a death penalty.

Speaker 2 (00:53:25):

The crazy thing is, a month after we got that record deal, the singer was killed in a car accident

Speaker 1 (00:53:30):

Sucks.

Speaker 2 (00:53:32):

And so the band went nowhere, but it was an interesting experience, to say the least. But those budgets don't exist anymore. They don't even exist for huge artists unless you're a seventh record on the same label type artist. That's when those old, especially like a Lincoln Park, that was right after the Lincoln Park record had dropped is when we started doing that stuff and got that record deal. It was the same year that the Lincoln Park record had dropped the first one

Speaker 1 (00:54:06):

Or a slip knot or something.

Speaker 2 (00:54:08):

Yeah, those type of bands, they're locked into those deals that have those huge budgets. But nowadays, man, you're lucky if you get 10 grand for a record, and that's like huge budget for most people.

Speaker 1 (00:54:21):

It's crazy. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:54:22):

So there's not a lot of money in this business, is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (00:54:26):

I actually think there is. It's just shifted.

Speaker 2 (00:54:29):

It

Speaker 4 (00:54:29):

Has shifted

Speaker 1 (00:54:31):

In some ways. I think there's more than ever, it's just gone through a transformation and it's not the smart people will find it, but if you're kind of going to the same well,

Speaker 2 (00:54:44):

You're

Speaker 1 (00:54:45):

Going to get thirsty.

Speaker 2 (00:54:45):

Oh, totally. Totally.

Speaker 1 (00:54:47):

And I started to figure that out when I was living in Florida. That was freaking me out around 2013,

Speaker 3 (00:54:55):

Kind

Speaker 1 (00:54:55):

Of 2009, 2010 when I was still in the band. I kind of saw it off in the distance and it started to give me anxiety. But when I was in Florida around 13 or 14, it was freaking me the fuck out. I saw the, well, I don't know, I just saw that 10 more years of that and I'd be fucked.

Speaker 4 (00:55:16):

And

Speaker 1 (00:55:17):

A lot of people I knew would be fucked. So hence what I'm doing now. But I do think that there are plenty of opportunities for people to do really, really well for themselves in music.

Speaker 4 (00:55:31):

Totally. People

Speaker 1 (00:55:32):

Still make music, they still listen to music. They love music. Music's not going anywhere. There's just a shift in how it's made and in what people will pay for, but they'll still pay for it. Right. It's just what they'll pay for has changed. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:55:50):

Exactly. It's funny because currently I'm wrapping up a record I've been working on for a couple years with John Anderson from Yes. And the last podcast I was on, I couldn't talk about it, but since then, the reins have been let go.

Speaker 1 (00:56:11):

That's a year ago.

Speaker 2 (00:56:12):

We can talk about it now. So the past two years I've been working on this record with John Anderson from Yes. And not only is it filled with some of the guys from Yes. I mean, the original record started in 1992. Massive budgets were recorded at Conway Studios, Chris Squire on Bass, Allen White on drums, some of the guys from Yes involved. And then the whole project was shelved, and it was resurrected by Mike, the studio owner here who's producing it. He started the groundwork for the resurrection in 98 of this project. And it just came, it finally got the go ahead a couple years ago in 2015. And so you have that type of record that's still being made. And it's been awesome working with the type of musicians that I'm working with, and I mean a classic names that everybody knows.

Speaker 1 (00:57:13):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:57:14):

And not only

Speaker 1 (00:57:16):

That is really amazing,

Speaker 2 (00:57:17):

And not only that, I'm getting to play on the record as well because I'm here. I'm here, I can play, I actually play drums, so it's quicker for me to set up a kit and just go out there and play whatever needs to be played and get the sound that we're looking for than it would be to put in a midi part to hold place, hold, and then send it out to somebody. So I ended up playing on the record a lot besides recording, and now we're in the mix process. So that is one project, that's one side of the work that I'm doing on. And then the other side of the work is I'm working with unsigned nobodies that have found out about me through word of mouth, and they're paying a decent amount of money. They're making it worth my time. So there's two opposite ends of the spectrum that I'm working at, and I'm sure there's a whole bunch of bands in between those two that are looking for people to work with. And the thing is, I'm getting gigs not because I really respect what Finn and Brian Hood and those guys are doing in the business world. I really respect it, and I wish I had time to actually put my ducks in a row like that, but I don't because I'm so busy with this record.

Speaker 1 (00:58:41):

I bet if you actually did that, you would figure out how to have a multimillion dollar studio because you're already, I think that in your case, you're a special case. It's like you're born into it in a lot of ways. I was born into the musical family thing. My parents' friends were like it, H Perelman and Andre Watts and Pink Kerman. These are the people that would come over for dinner, and I'd wake up with Andre Watts practicing piano in my house and smiling world. That's a

Speaker 4 (00:59:17):

Nice way to wake up.

Speaker 1 (00:59:18):

Oh, man. It was fucking awesome. Thinking back to that is crazy. At the time, I didn't think it was crazy, but now I realize just how nuts it is to be in that environment. But the thing about it is that since I was basically indoctrinated into it as a child, the fact that it's hard to make a living at it or that it's risky or any of that stuff, I wasn't given that chip.

Speaker 2 (00:59:51):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I wasn't either. That never made sense to me. People were like the musician jokes that have run rampant about, especially the drummer ones. How do you know? What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend homeless? I was like, man, there couldn't be anything further from the truth. For me. That's not my experience at all.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):

The idea that this is a risky industry to me is like, well, I mean, it's risky in the sense that you never know who you're going to deal with and maybe business deals

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):

Will what isn't risky.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):

Yeah. What isn't risky, but anything worth doing is going to have an amount of risk to it. And I think the people that see it through will eventually see some sort of success. I mean,

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):

I never imagined to be in the situation that I'm in right now with this place. I mean, I hoped, and that was ultimately the goal, is to be able to do something of the caliber that I'm working on. But when I went to Mike and was like, I can turn this into a place that makes money. I thought I can just tap into the local music market.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):

It's in your DNA.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):

Yeah, it really

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):

Is. It is. Look, I know for a fact that if just say URM died tomorrow and I had no other business prospects, I could grab a guitar practice for two months or work some engineering for two months and be back in the music game full-time, making a living at it. I have no doubt in my mind, and I know that you would be the same way if this studio burned down. You got no insurance money.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):

Your

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):

Dad moved to Mars and Disney was taken down by a sinkhole and you got moved to Lithuania, you could still figure out a way to make it work because it's in your DNA. Well,

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):

I don't want to do anything else. When it really comes down to it, I don't want to do anything else. When I think about having a job that my best friend had worked at a place for almost 15 years and had a really good, good living, and then they downsized and let him go, he was making more money than most of the people in that position were, and he's had to start all over and he's still looking. He's had a job now that's kind of just covering his basic income needs and the whole time he's never really been happy at any one of those jobs. He's made a good living or at least used to, and I've always been of the ill, I would rather have to eat nothing like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches all day long and really enjoy what I do than be loaded and eat steak every night and be miserable for eight hours a day.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):

I completely agree. But I do think though, that there is a place for the business content like the Brian Hood stuff or we have a program coming up called CareerBuilder that we've been working on for two years. It's better. It's not for people like you or me, it's for the people who have enough talent to make it work, but they don't understand the ins and outs of how to actually make this a viable business you can support your family off of or something. It's not for dudes who think that they want to get rich and famous

Speaker 4 (01:03:31):

Or

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):

Something, but I feel like now more than ever, because there are so many more musicians than ever and so many more opportunities to record, a lot of people think that it's harder than ever to make money at it. I think it's the opposite. Oh

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):

There's more opportunities than ever. And so for the people who just want to have it as their job and make a good job out of it, that's what this business content is. For

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):

The

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):

People who don't have it in their DNA and who aren't delusional into thinking that in two years they're going to take over all of Will Putney's bands and then be the next CLA, I mean, there will be a guy, there will be a guy who supersedes Will Putney and Metal. There will be the next CLA, there are those guys. There will always be the next millionaire pop producer, but that's always kind of been a long shot. The thing that's not a long shot now, which I think was a lot harder actually in 2006, is for someone to make a middle class normal living in a home studio environment. I think that that's a new thing mean there were those back then, but I think that that can be much more common now, and I think that that's what the Brian Hood content or career builder or that kind of stuff is aimed towards. And of course, maybe one of those people will become a superstar or two or three.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):

I

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):

Never count on it though.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):

I saw a glimpse of those superstar type people. There's a couple people at the summit that are just super young, like

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):

20,

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):

20 years old, 21, and just the talent since the summit, I've talked to a couple of the members and I actually started a friendship with a couple guys that as a result of talking to them at the summit and being in communication with them since then, and I had, what's his name? Ruben, who won, I think last month. Did he win last month

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):

To Ruben? He was won three times.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):

Yeah, he won three times and he's like, Hey, he sent me a thing today. He is like, I just did this Christmas thing and I produced it and played everything and sang and mixed it. Just let me know what you, I'd really love you to rip it apart for me. And I played it and I was just blown away. Seriously, this guy, I mean, that type of talent at that age is unbelievable to me. And so there's people like that that as long as they fight through it and keep the drive, I think the drive is more important than anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):

Don't develop a bad drug habit.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):

Yeah. Yeah. Don't develop any terrible habits.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):

Don't be a Jimmy Rosenberg.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):

Yeah. So if the talent is there and it's like I keep telling,

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):

Did you meet Luke Mansel Ward?

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):

Yes, I did. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):

That kid's impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):

Yeah, there's several of the kids. There's several of the guys there that were just like, wow, okay. I wish I was in your place when I was your age was a different time. But I keep telling some of my students that I teach both in the recording side of things. I teach at the Arts magnet here in Orange County. I started teaching the recording class as an outside consultant guy for the senior level or third level recording students. And occasionally I'll talk to kids that they're really excited and they want to do this. They want to make this, their living is recording and producing and that type of thing. And when they ask me what they should do, I mean, I tell 'em, if you're going to go to school, don't go to a school that is overpriced and that focuses on this. There's plenty of schools in this area that you can get a regular bachelor's, at least build towards a regular degree while still taking the recording classes that they offer. And our community college or well now a state college, but Valencia here in town on their main campus, they just invested millions of dollars into a multi-room recording environment.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):

I got to nail the mix in their curriculum.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):

They have have an SSL room and a Neve room, and it's a community college thing, so it is not super expensive. And I tell my students, if you really have to go to school, go there. If you don't have to go to school, buy some gear with the money that you would take for your first semester. What is that your first semester with housing and all that stuff? Stay at home if you can buy some cheap gear, nail the mix. If you're in the metal, a rock, do nail the mix. There's others for different genres that focus on maybe the dance music a little bit more, but whatever. Do those type of courses. And then at the end of it, they're like, well, how do I get to the level? And I said, man, it's about drive. It's not about talent. If you develop your skills, the talent, that's all talent is development of skills. And if something comes naturally to you, I don't define that as talent. I really think talent is achieved. It's not inherent. It's not an instinct. And so the talent is one thing and everybody thinks that you have to be super talented in order to really be successful. And I don't agree with that at all. I think you have to be

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):

Some of the most talented people I know are the biggest losers.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):

Yeah, exactly. I think you have to be the most driven, and if you're the most driven person and nothing is going to stop you, then talent, you're a talent. If you have talent will help. If you're not talented. If you're not talented at all, but you're still driven, you will eventually get there because your drive is going to take you there and you won't say no.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):

Not to be cheesy, but that's why we put unstoppable in the business name because that in my opinion, is the key ingredient to almost anything in life. You cannot let things get in your way.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):

That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):

You literally have to take obstacles, crush their skulls, drink their blood, and keep going.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):

Exactly. I mean that's what it's about is just trying to get to the point you want to get. Years ago a friend of mine was doing an interview on local musicians that had gone on to do whatever, and at the time I was touring 10 years and she asked me the question of, so what is it like to be successful? And I was like, well,

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):

I mean, what does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):

Yeah, I mean does that even, that's exactly what I was like, I don't know if I understand the question because the definition of success changes at every accomplishment that you make. And if you're really driven, then you'll never be successful. You'll get to a point where you're comfortable and you might choose to stop because you're comfortable, but you always know that personally there's another level that you could go to to really be successful. And as soon as you get to that step, there's another level that you'll shoot for as that being successful. So

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):

Just to give you a perspective on that, in 2015, my lowest point financially, and maybe since the band in July, I made 1300 bucks in income.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):

It

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):

Was rough. And my biggest goal was get 500 subscribers to the podcast by the end of the year. That was everything. And we did it, and then it was like 2016, I want us to have 1500 by the end of the year, 2000 if we're lucky. And then we hit Black Friday and had our biggest month ever in 2016. And we were like, wouldn't it be awesome if this was every month? Think about how much stuff we could do, but that's unrealistic, but let's set that anyways, as the goal for 2017,

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):

That's successful, right?

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):

We did that. Exactly. You were looking at five, now we're doing that. We did that in 2017, and actually if we did less than that, we would feel like something is really fucked up. It was like 2000 sixteens. Black Friday is now a low month for us. And so 2018, the goal is something that in 2015 I would've laughed about. It would've been like no fucking way. But if I was looking at 2000 sixteens goals now I'd be depressed. It's like going down a highway at night. You can only see as far as the lights show you, but there's still road

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):

After

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):

That.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):

Exactly. Exactly. And that to me, that is a perfect example of how success changes as you move up. And the crazy thing is for me, I don't even feel like I've been moving up. I know that I have been, but for me, it doesn't feel like it's been moving up. It feels like I've just been traveling along with a goal in mind and hard work, and it's just that road keeps getting longer and longer, but I'm not moving upwards. I'm just moving side to side in a linear pattern. When this record is done and my name is on it as engineer mixer and musician, and I'm going to look at this record and I mean, I'm sure I'm going to have a moment of reflection where it's like, okay, maybe I moved up a notch, but it doesn't feel like that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):

Then you move on. What kind of taking it back to the beginning, kind of like the same way that when something bad happens, you get scared for 45 minutes and you move on. I almost feel like achievements are the same thing. Take it in for 45 minutes, then move on. Dwelling on them is almost as bad as dwelling on bad stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:14:06):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):

Both of them will get you stuck. I read a book once by somebody who is now very hated, and I'm not going to mention his name because just mentioning his name will cause a lot of problems, but I read this book in 2001, so give me a break. But he talked about achievement and success and how he'd have a goal. I want that plane, and if he'd make the deals and get the plane, and then he'd be on the plane, he'd be like, cool, I got the plane. That's all it is. And then I want that yacht. And I mean, look, not, I don't mean to say that all goals are materialistic, and it's just the idea that every time you have a goal that seems unattainable, like I want that mega yacht or whatever, but from this guy,

Speaker 4 (01:14:59):

He

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):

Gets the mega yacht. He's on it. It's cool, but that's it. That's it. My soul is not fulfilled. There's yet another goal. I think that that's kind of what success is, is to always hit those milestones, but keep going for more.

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):

Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I guess it'd be much easier if us creative people were satisfied ever. But I don't think that there's,

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):

It's not just creative people though. I think it's human nature because if it was just creative people who are never satisfied, then people who deal in finance all the time would stop the moment they hit, hit a $10 million net worth and could live forever off interest. They would stop, but they don't.

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):

Right, exactly. They

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):

Would keep going more and more and more. It's human nature.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):

For better or for worse.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):

So anyway, I like it. So that's how I ended up here currently. Good.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):

You wanted the yacht, got the studio.

Speaker 4 (01:16:13):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):

Well, Matt, thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks for teaching at the summit and everybody listening. Pay attention to Matt and us over the next few months because we're releasing ultimate drum production, which is a course we made with Matt. You're going to be learning a lot more about it over the next few months, but it is literally the most comprehensive drum production course ever made on the planet. And I know this because I've been a part of two of the other ones, and this puts those to shame and it is great, not just for people who have a million dollar studio. It is good for people in any situation, any situation you're in, where you want to get a drum sound that's in your head to actually come through the speakers, no matter if you have shitty gear or shitty drums or you're in a million dollar studio, and if you don't know what you're doing in a million dollar studio, all you're going to end up with is pristine sounding garbage. So this is good for people of all levels. We covered it all and be on the lookout. And Matt, thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):

Yes, thank you. Thank you for involving me in the summit and I mean everything. It's been an awesome experience. I really enjoy working with you guys and I really enjoy just getting this information out there to me is key. I would rather everybody be successful and if my information can help with that success, then I mean, that's huge. That's more gratifying to me than anything, so

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):

I appreciate it. Well, there's two ways you can look at it. And I've worked with people in the past who have the opposite view, and lo and behold, we do not like each other at all. But there's the limited pie view where you have to act like dogs around a food bowl snarling at each other. The moment someone gets ahead, snarl, keep them down

Speaker 4 (01:18:21):

Because

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):

They're taking your fucking pie and that pie is shrinking. What a shitty way to live. Or there's the mentality that rising tide lifts all boats or sun shines for everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:18:33):

Right. Or infinite room at the top.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):

Yeah, exactly. I like that one. That one's so much cooler. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:18:40):

That is way cooler.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):

Yeah. Alright, well thank you sir. Thank you. To get in touch with the URM podcast,

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):

Visit urm com podcast and subscribe.