JOHNNY MINARDI: Getting signed, why producers get rehired, and having a long-term vision

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by the 2017 URM Summit, a once in a lifetime chance to spend four days with the next generation of audio professionals and special guests, including Andrew Wade, Kane Chico, Billy Decker Fluff, Brian Hood, and many more. The inspiration, ideas and friendship you'll get here are the things that you'll look back on as inflection points in your life. Learn [email protected]. And now your host.

Speaker 2 (00:32):

Hey, Eyal Levi. Alright. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi and I am very, very happy to be doing this episode because last time this guest was on, I wasn't there. I don't remember what happened. I either had a migraine or I was traveling or something got kidnapped and trapped under a mountain or something, but I wasn't there and it was a really great episode. And so Johnny Minardi, welcome back to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:00):

Thank you. Very stoked to be here, my friend.

Speaker 2 (01:02):

Well, for those of you who didn't hear the last one and may not know who Johnny is, you are familiar with his work, even if you don't know his name, he's currently the senior director of a and r at Fuel by Raman and Roadrunner, but has previously worked a and r with Equal Vision Atlantic and Red Bull Records. He's also the president of Self-titled Management is his own company, which is focused on managing producers like some of your favorites, Wil Putt name machine, Chris Crum, Nali, Misha, Nick Sampson, and other amazing talent. And he's also one of the co-founders of a really, really cool website and podcast with another great friend of URM Jesse Cannon. He's a park creator of Noise Creators, that site where producers can get gigs and also one of the best podcasts in audio, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:59):

Agreed.

Speaker 2 (02:00):

So welcome.

Speaker 3 (02:01):

And I didn't mean agreed as a pat on the back to myself because Jesse fully runs the podcast side of it, so I am a fan of that myself.

Speaker 2 (02:08):

Agreed that Jesse is a badass.

Speaker 3 (02:10):

Yes. There it is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:12):

Did I leave anything out?

Speaker 3 (02:14):

No, I think, and that sounds exhausting, but it's cool. I guess I somehow find a way to do all that and have some fun with a lot of good people.

Speaker 2 (02:23):

How long was that journey? I mean, I kind of covered it in only two minutes, but we're probably talking about decades of your life.

Speaker 3 (02:31):

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about 2004. I started at Field Bar Ramen into 2012. I started self-titled management, then did a little stint with Red Bull. Then I did three years with Equal Vision and just went back to Field Bar Ramen and also included Roadrunner this time around four months ago. And Noyce CRA was two years ago at this point.

Speaker 2 (02:56):

Congratulations. Thank

Speaker 3 (02:57):

You.

Speaker 2 (02:57):

On Roadrunner, by the way. Absolutely. That's my alma mater. In a way. I still don't understand why they ever signed my band. That's amazing. But it changed my life, and I know that Roadrunner is one of those labels where when you get signed to it, your life will actually change. And that can't be said for every label,

Speaker 3 (03:19):

But

Speaker 2 (03:19):

There's a soft spot in my heart for it. And

Speaker 3 (03:22):

I was going to say, yeah, I mean, it's crazy for me. I mean, I completely grew up on everything from the early era of Fear Factory, Soly, ura, even cold chamber, stuff like that. So it was really crazy when I sat down with everyone over there and they were like, we'd like you to be a part of this side of it too. And I was like, this combination of Field Bar Ramen and Roadrunner was literally built for me as a fan of music because I grew up on the Roadrunner stuff, transitioned into the field, bar Ramen stuff, and now full circle back helping with both.

Speaker 2 (03:57):

That's incredible. Well, just out of curiosity, what position did you start at Fuel by Ramen in 2004?

Speaker 3 (04:03):

Retail. So it was a very strange thing. I had a label myself right out of high school and a couple of my bands signed to Fuel by Ramen. So I was learning the a and r thing and label things in general and just got very friendly with the owners and the other people that worked at the label just from grooming bands and having them go to that level. And at the time they were expanding, boy was exploding, and they had this new crop of bands right behind it, and they were just like, we need people feet on the ground that we trust. Would you come do retail? And I was like, yeah, I don't know the first thing about it, but of course I'll come dabble. And in the process, we were kind of collaborating with Atlantic Records at the time, becoming a subsidiary of that, and eventually their retail guy took over and I was kind of there, I got all these bands I, and he's like, well, why don't you just start signing 'em to the label? And I was like, holy shit. So I kind of fell into an a and r job just by being around and being creative and providing whatever value I could to the label. They were really small. So when people would work around the clock and everyone would juggle a list of different jobs, they kind of took notice to that.

Speaker 2 (05:13):

I mean, I think that people still take notice of that. True. Because I don't know, it's interesting, I have this little theory that just showing up and doing the work puts you ahead of 85% of the other people.

Speaker 3 (05:26):

I love that. That's that you're absolutely correct. And that's one of the better ways I've ever heard it put.

Speaker 2 (05:30):

Well, I mean, it's really interesting because we have a lot of students at URM now, and I hear a lot about how hard it is to do this, how hard it is to do that. But in my experience, when I was a producer, I'd get interns a lot and there would be quick turnaround because they just wouldn't want to do the job. And then the guys that I kept, they had no problem doing work. They just stayed there. And maybe their skills weren't always that refined, but because they had the work ethic, I was willing to give them more of a chance and teach them. And so just showing up was enough for me to give them a shot. Absolutely. That alone. So a and r is an interesting field because a lot of a and r guys don't last, let alone last for over a decade in the position. There's a lot of turnaround in that job department. What do you think has kept you doing a and R and doing a and r for so many incredible labels?

Speaker 3 (06:38):

I think it's weird. It's like, to me it just comes natural to give a shit about things and people, for me, the position isn't so much about, I don't know, a lot of it, the a and r stuff gets a little douchey here and there, but for me, I just really love music and bands and people. So when I see someone that I think has the potential to do something really special, I really want to be a part of that. And I don't rest until I feel like enough people hear it or understand it, and even if it's too soon or we all know bands that we felt like we're way ahead of the curve and it went over fans' heads or whatever it may be. But yeah, I mean, I'm just really interested in working with bands that have big enough ideas to really change the world in a way to be the biggest in their genre or to reinvent something.

(07:27):

The cookie cutter stuff just really doesn't get me excited. So maybe it's not having a long list of casualties, of signings, of nothing working, but having ones that I think did something special and the future ones that I'm speaking with now even or have signed in the past couple of years, I think have a chance to be the biggest or the best in their genre for whatever reason, whether it's talent or just the hardworking of within a band, which a lot of people forget that once you sign to a label, it actually gets a lot harder, not easier. But yeah, I think just giving a shit and it sums it up pretty easily with that.

Speaker 2 (08:04):

Well, it's interesting that the a and r guy that I worked with back my Roadrunner days was Monty. And the thing that Monty has that is so unique to him and maybe a few other guys like yourself is that he loves music, he's passionate about it, he lives it. And I think that that's what has helped him have such a great track record over the years. And I've seen lots of different personality types in the a and r role. And I know that at some labels or some people, the interest is in just making a quick buck or sometimes they don't even listen to the recordings that come in or check the art or I can't believe it. But then people wonder why things aren't selling the way they used to. And it's like, well, I mean,

Speaker 3 (09:00):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (09:02):

It kind of goes down to the core of who's working behind it, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (09:08):

I fully agree. And guys, Monty are obviously legendary, so it's like there's a reason we speak about certain people the way we do. And this long after even,

Speaker 2 (09:18):

Well, I think it's that love for the music and the love for finding something that will change the world, always striving for something better. I think that I wish that everyone in a and r was like that. I think that the music industry would be very, very well off if that was the case.

Speaker 3 (09:40):

I agree. And there are a good amount of them. Oh yeah. But at the same time, there's also not, so it's like it's a mixed bag for sure. Just like any industry, I guess.

Speaker 2 (09:50):

Absolutely. So when you are looking for a band, does it matter to you if they've already established themselves as a business? Or is that secondary to what you think the potential is? Because you hear a lot of people say that labels only will look at you if you already have done it yourself. And I know that that's true sometimes, but I know that's not true every time at all.

Speaker 3 (10:16):

Right. And yes and no. Most previous examples, the last two artists that I signed literally had nothing going on. And I just loved the people in the band and what they were doing. And when I met with them, they spoke to me about their vision and their plan, and I was like, holy shit, I can get on board with this. So it just hit me hard enough to where there wasn't that, but there's absolutely times when I like a band, but I'm like, you know what? I'm going to wait and see if they could actually pull this off in the sense that I want to watch them grow and put in the work rather than go on tour twice and break up, they realize they missed their girlfriends. So I think it's a lot of, there's some that are absolutely wait and see, and there's some that you just get smacked over the head with and you're like, I need to do this because everyone else that hears this is going to feel this way and it's going to go somewhere else.

(11:10):

I had an example, I had a meeting a month ago at Roadrunner, and I said, I presented a band, which we didn't announce yet, but I very much was like, this band is going to be the biggest band in this genre. Do we want it to be with us or somewhere else? And it was that clear to me. So that's what I think if you have that feeling. They hadn't put out a song, but I had heard their songs. You know what I mean? So it's like there is no business there, but absolutely, if you have that feeling, you're crazy to let it go.

Speaker 2 (11:40):

Absolutely. And the business part is learnable.

Speaker 3 (11:43):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (11:44):

The talent is not

Speaker 3 (11:45):

Right, and that's a better way to put it. If the band or people in the band or their team around it are willing to learn it, if they don't know it or if they're in process of building it and you're like, wow, they're actually doing it. That is a very helpful piece of it. Like I said, it gets way harder when a label starts to amplify what you're doing because then you got to do a lot more faster because everyone's watching now. You're not in your hometown playing a show every three months. You're doing a lot more than that.

Speaker 2 (12:14):

I think also one of the hardest parts of being a band on the label, in addition to everything you just said, is the fact that a label is not some impersonal entity. It's a collection of people.

Speaker 3 (12:27):

And

Speaker 2 (12:27):

So more than your a and r need to be stoked on it. The press person needs to be stoked on you. Your product manager does. If your label has a touring department that the head of touring needs to be into it, the label as a whole, the personalities there in need to feel like your band is the shit. And so that right there is also, that's difficult. I think for someone, for a band who might not have experience with networking or meeting people, that's tough too. I think

Speaker 3 (13:02):

Maintaining and really developing those relationships to where they really give a shit as well to where those late nights when they're struggling to get you a feature or whatever you're doing, you really need them to be able to put in that extra phone call. So if you are a dickhead and treating everyone like shit, that extra phone call gets a little shorter.

Speaker 2 (13:22):

Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, if the label publicist has 10 bands to work that day and your baby band act like they're the Rolling Stones and treat her shit or something, she might not be as inclined to Yes. Stay those extra hours,

Speaker 3 (13:41):

Right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:43):

So how do you recommend though that for a new band that they get to know the people at the label and do their own politicking to get the label everyone behind them?

Speaker 3 (13:58):

I think in my role, it's a lot of me initially really introducing on the right way, in the right way and on the right level of making sure that each person at the label understands the band's vision and my passion for it, why I'm excited about it. I think, yeah, it's a lot of it falls on the a and r, whomever brought the project into the building, really making them understand, introducing them correctly and me going individually to each person and just saying what I love about it, why I think it's going to be crazy, what I think that their department should focus on in a sense of what I see the angle at, especially on a press side or tour side, that stuff is very specific. And just making sure that when they meet that I prepped both of them in the sense that why I know they're going to get along and what's exciting.

(14:54):

And then that way, obviously from there, as things roll out and you set up records and songs and whatever, they start to really dig in and work together. And from there, it's kind of more on them to continue that relationship. But yeah, just staying in touch and doing, when a publicist suggests certain things or whatever, you obviously, unless you're very against whatever it may be, you very much just kind of like they're there for a reason, they're there to help you. And a lot of people I think, realize that the sooner you realize that, the better because they only want success for you. So if they're suggesting something that's usually for the bigger picture, whether you see that at the moment or whatever, there's a ladder to have to step on to get to other opportunities sometimes.

Speaker 2 (15:40):

Absolutely. And I think that that's actually a really important point to make, which is that the people at the label are there to help you

Speaker 3 (15:48):

Because

Speaker 2 (15:49):

There's sometimes this misconception about how a label is the man

Speaker 3 (15:54):

And

Speaker 2 (15:55):

The man just wants to take you and turn you into some McDonald's music product or something. No, that's not it. They really just want you to have a career. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:04):

I mean, they only win if you have a career. If you don't and you fight all the time, it's not going to be great for anyone.

Speaker 2 (16:10):

Exactly. And if they can't keep their lights on, then what are you even, you can't continue that relationship or your record deal, so. Right, exactly. Yeah, so it's very important I think, to realize that. I think sometimes it takes a little bit more maturity to understand that on the part of a band,

Speaker 3 (16:32):

It takes a bit of learning, but also I think deep down, good people really like to work with other good people and absolutely. I've been super fortunate to, the people I've worked for and learned from have been very passionate music fans and good people to where they have treated bands like family. So I've watched that from day one only knowing that way, and I've seen other things not be that way, and it's been like, holy shit, I don't know how they still operate. So I've been very fortunate and I think a lot of the bands, if not all of them, would speak that way, the ones I've worked with, especially on the labels.

Speaker 2 (17:09):

Here's something I'm wondering, in your time at Fueled at Rum and you've worked with super top tier acts like Follow-Up Boy Panic at the Disco Paramore and others, and in your management company you manage some top of the line producers, what do you think sets these top achievers apart from the hundreds of thousands of people who never make it? Is there something that all these top bands and top producers share any common traits

Speaker 3 (17:41):

That

Speaker 2 (17:41):

You've noticed?

Speaker 3 (17:42):

Absolutely. It's just like an unparalleled work ethic. Every single one of them, the people that I work with on the producer side especially, are out of their minds workhorses. And not only just talent-wise, but just time-wise and the drive and getting up earlier and staying later, whatever all of that is. And same thing with those bands, especially those three you mentioned, there's a reason they've been around for 10 plus years, watching all of them from literally being unsigned acts into stadium artists. It's not by coincidence. It's very much someone within that band had a very strong vision and wasn't stopping until they got there. Even when we didn't understand it on the label side. I remember panic at the disco would talk about doing some sort of circus set during their headlining tour in the first record before we released it. And we're like, okay, you guys are out of your minds.

(18:37):

And then by the end of that tour cycle, they were headlining small arenas and they had a circus set up and we were like, holy shit, this is what you were talking about. They knew before they released a song legally, they just had demos on the internet before they put out a real release. They already knew what the next couple of years held for them, and they weren't stopping until they got there. And it was amazing to see. It's like when I sit with the band now and they're just, they talk about their band or their vision and it's very lackluster or whatever, it's like, oh man, you guys are competing with people that will literally not sleep till they play stadiums and you're talking about your music. It's a side job. It is just never going to work.

Speaker 2 (19:25):

Yeah, it's interesting. I remember once back when I was in college, the producer, Eddie Kramer came to give a masterclass and he was asked, what is it that people like Jimmy Page and Jimmy Hendrix have that other people don't have, besides that they're good at guitar, there's a lot of good guitar players. What made them so special in your opinion? And he was like, well, most people can see 10 feet ahead of them, but they could see a full football stadium ahead of them into the future. They had vision, they had more vision than anybody around them.

Speaker 3 (20:05):

And the work to get to that vision, not just like a lofty, I want to play stadiums one day and then sit back and hope it happens. It was like, okay, well, if I want to play stadiums in a couple years, I better learn how to sell out my 500 cap room, then my thousand, then the this and work backwards from it.

Speaker 2 (20:22):

Is it always that broken down? And I'm wondering, because for me, it always has been. It always was. When I wanted to get my band signed, I learned how does a label discover a band and get interested? And then after studying all that, I did all that and then it worked. I got signed by Monty. And weird

Speaker 3 (20:39):

How that happens when you actually

Speaker 2 (20:41):

Lay out a plan. Dude, I laid out the plan and it was obviously a different time, but I learned exactly what they're looking for. Back in those days, it was like, how much regional touring are you doing? Can you make a video on your own? It wasn't assumed that you could make video back then.

Speaker 3 (21:01):

So

Speaker 2 (21:01):

It was those sorts of things. And so I made a point of really going down the list and making sure that we covered all bases and other things happened as well, right, networking and meeting the right people. But still, the plan was very logical and it worked. And then also with URM for instance, I knew that it was going to work because I figured out in my head what it took to start an internet business and make it work. And I knew what our market wanted, and so I laid it all out and just worked backwards and made it all make logical sense so that you could just knock everything off the list. And yeah, it's worked. And also everybody I know in music who's gotten really, really far, with the exception of one or two geniuses who just happened to be at the right place at the right time, they all kind of had a plan of some sort and executed.

Speaker 3 (22:01):

And I think building that plan, I think there's people like you and I would classify in the same world, obviously with Joel and Joey and Finn and everyone like that. To me, when you see someone having success and you want that success, two people, someone that goes, fuck that guy and they're jealous, and then there's guys like you and I think that go, wow, I would love to be doing that. How did they do it? And then you go and you figure it out and reverse engineer, and then you say, oh, well I could apply that to this and this and this. And then it's not luck. It's very much strategic in a sense. I mean, there is luck involved, like you're saying, networking and who do you meet when and all that. But there's a reason you put yourself in those situations rather than sitting in your garage being like, fuck that band. This local band's getting all these better shows, these tours. How are they getting these Spotify playlists? Fuck this. This is stupid. And it's like you need to go ask the questions and be supportive. The other thing I see is when bands get something that other bands get what they want, they go and talk shit on it. And it's like, that is the quickest death rattle you could have to me.

Speaker 2 (23:11):

I have a funny story for you on that topic. So back when we got signed to Roadrunner, there was another Atlanta band who was also in the running for a deal with a Roadrunner. They were talking to Getter primarily. They never got the deal. We got a deal and they were super butt hurt about it, and they went around town saying that we stole their deal. Now I've never heard of someone stealing a record deal.

Speaker 3 (23:38):

Yeah. How does that work?

Speaker 2 (23:40):

Actually, logically, but great, we broke into Mike DER's office, changed the names and he didn't even notice.

Speaker 3 (23:46):

Right?

Speaker 2 (23:47):

Whoops. So yeah. So I ended up telling him about that, and he busted out laughing and he was like, they don't even know how far they were from getting an office

Speaker 3 (23:57):

That's even crazier. And yeah, you almost just feel sorry for that. You know what I mean? To me it's just like, man, I wish they had someone around them being like, no, it's not a competition. There's a lot of pie out there for everyone. Just if you really want it, keep going. And the other thing is too, when bands when I have to give honest feedback and I don't like something, I hate when I, I hate when I feel like I let people down, but it's like, fuck what I think keep going if you love it. I don't give a shit. It's just for me right now, I'm not pulling that into what I'm working on because I don't share your vision, but fuck my vision. You know what I mean? Everyone's got their own thing. I'm not always right. I've passed on bands that went on a lot of success and I've signed bands that didn't have any.

(24:41):

So it's like there's a good mix of all of it out there. I mean, no one bats a thousand in any industry, especially a and r, I promise you that. So I think that that's another sign of it too, that other band instead of being shitheads, should have been like, yo, we should buddy up and maybe they'll take us out and then maybe we strengthen our chances to get Roadrunner or another competing label involved. Absolutely. But it's crazy when they're like, fuck them, and then they talk shit. And then when you're doing a hometown show, who should have opened that show? Probably that band, but fuck them.

Speaker 2 (25:11):

Oh yeah, they definitely did not open When you get Hometown Show. Absolutely not. It is interesting, something recently kind of like what you said happened to me where you see somebody's success and you could either go down the fuck them

(25:27):

Or the how to do it route. This was about two or three years ago when all we had was the podcast before we launched Nail the Mix. I knew that we were going to do Nail the Mix and turned it into this whole school, but we were still just a podcast and we saw an article about someone that's not a direct competitor, but kind of in the same field, and it was a article about how big they were, and it was like, holy shit. But it wasn't a fuck them. It was like, that should be us too. How do we do that now? We know that's possible. Before we only thought that it could be possible. Now we know that it's possible that should be us. How do we do it? And we did it, but it could have easily have been, fuck that guy, what does he have that we don't have? And just negativity. But it wasn't

Speaker 3 (26:20):

Right.

Speaker 2 (26:21):

The CEO of Creative Live Chase Jarvis always says, don't hate congratulate

Speaker 3 (26:25):

There. I love that.

Speaker 2 (26:26):

Which I totally agree with. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (26:28):

That's a good way to sum it up. But yeah, that's absolutely it. And obviously proof to what you guys have built, which has been amazing to watch. You could have easily been the bitter assholes and one either closed shop and not done it and had your whole future stunted off of some dumb reaction or built what you guys have built and what you're building in the future.

Speaker 2 (26:51):

I don't understand why some people let other people's success stunt them. Like you said, there's enough room, there's enough pie for everyone.

Speaker 1 (26:57):

I

Speaker 2 (26:57):

Think I heard a quote recently from James Cameron, and I think I said this on a pod a few episodes ago, but it's such a great quote, which is at the top shelf, there's Infinite Space.

Speaker 3 (27:07):

Sure. That's crazy. I really believe that. Yeah, I fully agree that, I mean, dude, there's so much going on. It's like, what if one of the labels that we love that put out music didn't do one because some other label beat them to being a label. Think about that. That's fucking crazy. That's what people talk about when they're like, oh, they already started this kind of recording academy thing and you guys just end think about how fucking crazy that is. Totally irrational, but that's how our minds sometimes are. Unless you have a really great group of people around you that are like, no, dude, I have a buddy that's literally in the process of starting a label, and every time he's like, oh, this one already did these kind of, I'm like, are you kidding? Go. There's nothing to complain about. Go right now.

Speaker 2 (27:53):

Yeah, I mean if you think about it, back in 2006 or oh seven, people were talking about the death of labels coming up. That was the big talk back then. I remember how panicked everyone was, and that was about the time that Sumerian,

Speaker 3 (28:11):

That

Speaker 2 (28:12):

Ash didn't give a fuck about what anyone was saying, had a huge success with Sumerian, and there were already bands that played heavy music with blast beats and technical stuff out there. He could have easily have gotten discouraged and not do that, but instead he got that label going and kind of created a whole other scene of heavy music. Absolutely. Whether you like Sumerian sound or not, in the face of an industry that was saying that it was finished, he just went and started that and had great success.

Speaker 3 (28:44):

Absolutely. I mean, that's a testament of not giving a shit and being like, well, why not me? So I fully backed that kind of mentality.

Speaker 2 (28:53):

So let's talk a little bit about self-titled management. First of all. So you manage a lot of great producers. What do you think is different about managing producers and artists, and why are you managing producers?

Speaker 3 (29:06):

So when I left Field by Ramen in 2012, something I had noticed from eight years of being an a and r there, there's just so much going on the label front. And we were in the Atlantic building and I was watching them operate and the a and r staff and everyone. And a lot of times it was really interesting to me that when we would make records with producers, I'd be dealing directly with the producer. And a lot of them just didn't have any sort of business experience or how to even keep a calendar. You know what I mean? Very minimal things. Yes,

Speaker 2 (29:40):

I know exactly what,

Speaker 3 (29:41):

Yeah, sure. And on the business end of it, with even invoicing and negotiating and whatever, they had times when they would negotiate the deal and then a band would come in all sour because they felt like the producer was being a dick. So I felt like there was this need with people I had worked with. I started it out just kind of like, Hey, there's these producers that I've worked with for the past eight years that I feel like I could help out and help grow their business and just make it work better. So literally the day I left Field by Rom and I called, I think it was five or six guys, and I just said, Hey, I'm going to start a producer management company. I really want to just, basically the way I pitched it to all of 'em was, I want to make sure you're the guy in the studio. All you have to do is be creative and make great records. I'll handle everything else. And I don't know any producer that if they believed me in my relationship with them was strong enough. I don't know any producer that would be like, that sounds terrible. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (30:39):

That sounds like the dream.

Speaker 3 (30:41):

Yeah. So I felt like I found that white space of value that I could bring because I did that all day at the label anyways, and I was like, you just cut me in on what I bring you. Here's how it all looks. I'll keep it organized. You just make records and look at your calendar. It'll all be negotiated. And obviously some of them are very much a part of day-to-day conversations and some aren't. Some just go through it and I'll kind of go, Hey, here's this record, here's the budget, here's the timeframe. You cool? Yeah, good book it done. So it's like literally they get to be the guy in the studio. I mean, I was trying to book projects with some of the guys I work with while I was at FBR and they wouldn't get back to me for days. And sometimes you know how deadlines work, it's like sometimes we'd move on and it was like, dude, you missed out on a project.

(31:25):

You didn't respond. That's crazy. So I kind of built it on the back of that and just again, a lot of them were friends, and I loved having that accountability to help them and their families bring in money and put food on their table and in the process myself as well. But it's a thing of taking care of friends and it's just what I was always raised on and to have them and me understand the business side was I think of value to a lot. I had been at labels for so long, I was like, I know what the labels want and how willing they are to bend on certain things that you're not even asking for. So it was one of those things which I hadn't run into any conflict of interest of negotiating against my own labels, which is a good thing. And if that were to happen, I would just step out of the way and let someone else handle that deal because the last thing I can do is really fuck that up.

Speaker 2 (32:19):

But

Speaker 3 (32:19):

The difference between producers and artists is, in my experience, a lot of artists, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and a lot of them are a lot younger than a producer that's been around for a minute. Obviously there's young producers, but most of the guys I work with are established at least five, six years, if not 10, 15, 20.

Speaker 2 (32:40):

Just about all of them that I saw in that list are either in their thirties or forties.

Speaker 3 (32:44):

Absolutely. And I mean, you know what that is. You know what I mean? So it's like the difference of being an adult, some of them having wives and families and kids, it's important. It's not a fun thing. It's not like a side job that they kind of fuck around with. It's a serious business for them and it matters. So to me, having that kind of pressure and accountability, I love that. I thrive off that and I just put it together that way. Whereas a band, sometimes you're dealing with 17, 18-year-old kids that have never left their state. So it's like it's a lot of babysitting and grooming, and I'm not saying it's not worth it, but it's just a different set of structure that I didn't build. I do self-titled on my own by myself, so if something doesn't get done, it's me. I fucked it up, or I know I have to do it.

(33:31):

With managing artists, I feel like it's really important to have a day-to-day or an assistant or something to where you have structure at helping you with the constant barrage of social media or in a new town at 3:00 AM blew at Tire and for some reason can't, whatever it may be, that's a different game. And I respect the hell out of everyone that does it and builds a company to handle that. I just knew my capacity. I didn't want to do that. And I dabbled, I managed William Beckett from the Academy with a co-manager. I tried a couple other artists and I learned very quickly and was honest with myself. I was like, this is, I'm using so much bandwidth on this that I'm now doing a disservice to the original idea of producers. So I just basically chopped that and had real conversations and said, I'm going to go at it and just try to be the best producer manager and just really deliver on all the promises that I did to all these guys I work with and kind of left it at that couple of years ago.

Speaker 2 (34:31):

Well, your clients are like, I've already said, and I know, but they are some of the very best. What is it that attracted you to them, or what is it that you look for in a producer?

Speaker 3 (34:44):

I think it's different with each guy. I mean, they've come to me in very different ways and timeframes. I mean, the first batch of guys, like I said, I had worked with or made records with during my time at Field Bar Ramen or prior, even when I had my own label. So that's how it started. And once I got going, I would just get recommended or Hey, my buddies looking, he just lost his manager, or he's never had one, or he took a couple years off from making records and now he really wants to dive back in. And I told him, you're the guy to plug him back in. And I just really, for me, again, knowing my bandwidth and being really, really honest with myself of knowing how to have the success that I promised to these people and myself, I always very delicately start the conversation with, Hey, I'm not SHRM looking right now, but I'm always down to meet new people and I always need to understand who's out there doing cool shit anyway, even if I don't get involved on a management front.

(35:44):

So I always start that way, but there's some guys that I just click with on such a heavy level. When Putney came to me, I was so blown away just as a fan that I was like, yeah, of course, I'll fucking work with you. You're the shit. And we just became really great friends musically and as fans of music that I was like, alright. And that guy's out of his mind in the sense of workhorse. I've never met anyone that runs an operation the way he does, having multiple studios in a building and multiple engineers that are just constantly ripping through records and he is just another level of stuff. So with him it was like, Hey, I'm super busy, but holy shit, I need to figure this out. And we struck up a friendship before we really dove in. So to me, again, it always goes back to personal relationship if I can really do it. But then again, there's people that I've had to pass on that I'm like, I will be doing a disservice to, I don't have the time. So it's been a lot

Speaker 2 (36:45):

Of that. What is it that makes you want to pass on somebody?

Speaker 3 (36:49):

Just

Speaker 2 (36:49):

Out of curiosity?

Speaker 3 (36:50):

Honestly, it's time for me, it's just really time. When I got this new position at Fuel By and Roadrunner, I had to let go of a handful of guys because I knew my time, my bandwidth was shrinking and they were basically the guys that I had picked up more recently, I think it was the last four or five people that I started working with. I had to kind of call back six months a year into working with them and be like, Hey, I have to make some really tough decisions. I need to step away. I will help you where I can. I will recommend you for projects if I hear a conversation, but I can't be accountable for your full schedule anymore. I know this new position is going to kick my ass. It's another level of stuff. Whereas the guys that I still work with, I've been working with for a minimum of, I want to say three years or so outside of machine.

(37:39):

I had worked with him a little on and off through the label stuff and more recently of a year and a half ago now. And he's machine and he is machine dude. I mean, I grew up on those records. It is crazy having the first conversation with him and he's just like, so you've heard some of my records? And I was like, dude, come on now. It was just a very humbling way to introduce himself, I guess. But yeah, I mean just again, it's just being really self-aware is the thing I really strive for. And if that means having tough conversations, I mean the people I had to step away from, I still recommend all the time, whether it's directly or in a conversation. If I'm hanging out at another label, I'm like, that band is super close to this producer location wise, and I think that they would kill it. I know you have a small budget, so you don't want to travel them across the country. You should go over there and call him. I'll put you in touch if you haven't talked to him. And I still do my job with them, even though I don't work with them just because they're friends. It all has to come back to that for me. Well, and

Speaker 2 (38:40):

I can tell you, you don't want to be with a management that doesn't have time for you. Just like you don't want to be on a label where they're not stoked. You don't just want to be on a label. You need to be on a label that is stoked about you. You need to have a manager who's got the time to devote for whatever's needed. And if he doesn't have that time, you shouldn't be with him just to have a manager.

Speaker 3 (39:07):

I agree. And I think that that's something that not a lot of people figure out or they do too late and they've wasted time. I mean, any of the people I work with, I know it's a long list, but any of them can get me on the phone or a text or an email, whatever, outside of a few things. But whenever, no matter what, especially if it's serious, you know what I mean? It's just something that I care about enough to always make time for with the people I've committed to.

Speaker 2 (39:35):

So I mean, it sounds like you're not taking on new producers now, but just say that you were, what is it that if you were looking for a young producer, what are the kinds of things that would get you interested in managing them in the first place?

Speaker 3 (39:52):

A lot of it would be first and foremost, it's got to be just quality. You know what I mean? The quality has to be there. Whether they're working with Joe Schmo up the street band, or they're working with a band that's kind of growing and going to another level, or it's someone that's been killing it for 10, 15 years, whatever, the quality has to be something that I can honestly sit and look someone dead in the face at a label or a manager and be like, this person will make the best record for you. I have to believe that. Otherwise my reputation, which is all I have, which starts to get a little hindered on everything. And it goes back to too, like you said about getting signed a roadrunner for your band, you watched, you learned what they wanted and they did it. For me, I got to watch a producer not only make quality stuff, but being consistent and going out there and getting work. If they're a great producer and no one's going to them, I feel like there's a disconnect. And it's like they always,

Speaker 2 (40:48):

There's probably a reason for that.

Speaker 3 (40:50):

Exactly. And another main thing I love when most producers don't understand is why don't I get any repeat customers? It's a kind of crazy thing that it's a very self-aware thing where it's like I have producers that every 18 months that band calls back, it's like clockwork. And we go over their schedule and we're like, Ooh, we're filling you up too much, but this band's probably going to call you back mid next year because their cycle's going to be ready. You just know you have those clients where some other guys that aren't self-aware about it are like, man, this sucks. I have no work next year. It's like, why aren't any of the bands you made records with the past two years calling you back? That's something to figure out. So when I watch all these one and done guys, and then they're like, no one's getting me work, so why don't you just get me work?

(41:34):

It's like, that's not how it is. I could just amplify what you are doing. I could pitch you as a service, but I can't sit in the studio and make sure the experience is great. And clearly if bands aren't really coming back or excited that you're involved, there's something wrong. So I always look for that. I talk to bands that work with people who are you recording with? How was the experience if you made a record with that guy and then you made one with a different guy? What was the difference? Who did you like more and why? Really just researching. And when you see the same names pop up all the time, you're kind of like, oh, this is going to be, it's like bands. It's like signing bands. It's like, oh, this one's going to be the next one to pop. This is going to work.

Speaker 2 (42:15):

So what are some of those differences between the guys who get all the repeat clients and the guys who don't in your opinion?

Speaker 3 (42:23):

I think it's a couple of the things I said with quality and personal touch and just caring about the record. I think some of the guys that don't get returned, customers are the people that run it somewhat of a business while in the studio of very strategic, very dictatorship. They make the final call. They're not really listening to the band's ideas. They're taking the instrument and rewriting apart and then just plugging it into the record and you're like, what the fuck is going on? The whirlwind of just kind of an egomaniac producer in a sense, and the other ones that actually care. And when you hear a band speak about a recording experience in an interview or whatever, and they're like, that producer literally changed our life in the sense that they took what we did, really broke it down with us and made it stronger and wouldn't take good enough for what we wanted. We needed to find the great parts that made the songs great, and that's why we're a band that's not selling 3000 records anymore. We're selling 30 or whatever the standard is for everything at this point. And that's wise because the producer actually cared and has fingerprints all over it. Not in the sense of overpowering it, but actually caring about it.

Speaker 2 (43:39):

That makes perfect sense. And I think also there's the factor of how pleasant are they to be around?

Speaker 3 (43:45):

Totally. It's got to be a relationship, man. You don't want to be in a studio for three, four, or five weeks with someone that's an asshole, and every day you're like, here we go again. Who knows what's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (43:54):

Yeah, exactly. At what point do you think that a producer is ready to get a manager? And I'm asking because I don't think that if you're working with local bands or regional bands that you need to mess with producer management.

Speaker 3 (44:09):

Absolutely agree. And it's like the level of band again, where if they're working with a regional band, a bunch of regional bands that start to get plucked out and signed, it becomes very apparent that now they could start going to those labels before the bands come to them. So it's that switch that gets flipped. But if you're just working with a lot of local bands and none of them are really going on to sign to labels or to have whatever sort of success, there's probably not a lot a producer manager can do for you anyways. If I walked in to Rise and I sat and said, yo, so-and-so's the best, you got to work with them. They're from Texas, whatever. And they're like, cool, what have they done? And I list it off and they're like, oh, I really never heard of any of that stuff. That's not an awesome way to start a conversation. You know what I mean? Nope. That's a pretty tough sell for me. Where then they kind of be like, come on, man, you knew we were going to react like this.

Speaker 2 (45:07):

I mean, you got to have something to work with.

Speaker 3 (45:09):

So that's what I mean, management is a lot of amplifying. Obviously it's bringing opportunity, but you got to have the ammo to go get that opportunity. A good example is when I started working with Seth Henderson, who was just doing a ton of pop punk in the Midwest. He was doing real friends, knuckle puck, sleep on it, all these bands that went on to labels. So it was very easy to be like, Hey, all these bands are coming directly to you in this area. I think if I worked with you, I can expand you out of this area because you have five bands that have gone onto labels after you made their record. So there's clearly something going on. And I worked with him and Rise brought another band to him and all these other bands that weren't from the Midwest, and it started to break open his opportunities because he was kind of knocking on that door. But five years prior, if he was working with five bands that didn't go to any label, I wouldn't have had that same conversation. There's just no chance of it working in my eyes.

Speaker 2 (46:05):

It's very similar to when you hire a publicist. A lot of people think that the publicist is going to make the stories happen, and it's like, no, you have to have the stories.

Speaker 3 (46:17):

They're

Speaker 2 (46:17):

Just going to amplify your stories and get them in front of the right people. They're going to pitch the story to people, but if they don't have anything to work with, if you don't have a story, then what would you expect to happen?

Speaker 3 (46:32):

Yeah. It's like, can you imagine going to Rolling Stone with a band that no one's ever heard of? Unless the music literally floors them and has a really interesting story or vision, or Hey, they're going to stand up for this. You should be a part of helping this out. But working at labels, bands get so pissed when they send us a list of here's our three targets for premieres to announce the record in First song. They get so pissed when those publications pass and it's like, Hey, we pitched them the exact story that we're passionate about. We think you made the right songs and the right record. They disagreed. What do you want from us? You know what I mean? There's just very simple black and white methods to that stuff where it gets really crazy. And I'm not to say that everyone's a fall down and be like, oh, they said no, let's go fuck ourselves at this point. That's it. But unless there's a story, it's not that exciting sometimes, you know? Know what I mean? And it's all lot of personal taste, and you got to understand the amount of shit getting thrown at every publication every day.

Speaker 2 (47:36):

Yeah. It's a mountain of, well, a digital mountain.

Speaker 3 (47:40):

Digital mountain, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:41):

A lot of megabytes. So I've got a question, which is a little bit more general. We've been talking about really specific stuff, but I know that you're also involved in launching clothing lines, snakes and suits, and you're pretty entrepreneurial, dude, man. What do you think helps cultivate the spirit of an entrepreneur? And I'm wondering, because most of the audience does freelance work, and so there in a sense, entrepreneurs, how do you stay inspired and disciplined to keep grinding? And again, what do you think really defines or helps cultivate that spirit?

Speaker 3 (48:15):

I think it's a lot of, again, being the person that looks at something of like, whoa, that's awesome. I wish I could do that. And then doing it instead of like, well, that's awesome. I'm just going to buy some T-shirts. Instead of be like, I want to make t-shirts, I want to design stuff I would wear. Or I just launched a clothing company with my wife called Good Future Club. And the whole thing is just about inspiring people or spreading positivity, because I feel like a lot of that is lacking, especially for the last year, but for the last couple years. And I just feel like it's this whole crazy thing to where all I wanted to do was tell people, shit's cool. Everything's good right now if you want it to be. That's not taking anything away from any people that are really dealing with hard times.

(48:59):

But to me, the entrepreneurial side of it is just like if you want to say something or do something or figure it out, it's like you just got to go try shit. And just a lot of shit. I had so many things that I was launching that I was like, man, this isn't going to work. I'm just going to pull it back. And then I went and started something else learning from what I was learning from setting that up. So it's never going to be easy, but I always just like when I first started a label, I heard bands and I would go up to them and be like, yo, where do I get your record? We don't have that record. No one ever put it out. I was like, well, I'll put it out. And they were like, what do you mean? I was like, I have no idea, but I like your bands. So I think other people would like it. And it was very naive of me. I mean, even with that same record, first one I put out, I went to Best Buy, literally to a store, not a distribution center. And I said, how do I give you CDs to sell? I just put out this record. And the employees laughed at me.

Speaker 2 (49:53):

Did they know? What were they like? Huh?

Speaker 3 (49:55):

They laughed at me and I was like, well, what do I do? They're like, we get everything from distribution centers. And I was like, well, can you give me their number? They're like, yeah. I was like, alright. So I called them and they're like, we get our stuff through these distributions companies. And I was like, okay. So I called all them and Little I figured it out. And then we had records in Best Buy two months later. But having that spirit of which I've been talking about a lot lately is something that Rage Against the Machine actually taught me is to just question everything in the sense that why can't I have records in Best Buy? I don't know. So go figure it out. And I did. You know what I mean? Because I asked everyone, don't be a dickhead in the process. That usually stunts pretty quickly.

(50:38):

But I just asked and asked and asked, and then by the time it happened, I was like, whoa, I have records in Best Buy. That's fucking crazy. But two months ago, I didn't even know how to put out records. So I think it's just that it's the curiosity and it's like no one should be able to tell you no. So it goes back to even when I can't sign a banner, I tell them I'm not interested. I always end it with, but fuck me, dude. Go keep going it and go somewhere else. That'd be awesome. Do your thing. So it's like I want everyone to win. And I think the shit that I've started, whether it be management or noise creators or clothing company, there's always a reason that I did it. There's always a need or a value or something. I feel like to me, selfishly, there's something fun to do with it too. And I think that that is kind of the fire of an entrepreneur is like, go create something. Go fix something the way you want it to be for yourself. And that's how I've always done things.

Speaker 2 (51:32):

I think that most people would've probably stopped at the Best Buys part of the story. They took their CDs there and they got laughed at, and that was the end. I think that's where most people would've dropped off.

Speaker 3 (51:49):

I agree. And I've seen people drop off at those kind of instances where I had to ask a bunch more questions, get laughed at a few more times, and then I got put in touch with a distributor that was like, oh, you're selling how many copies in your home area? Let's put it in the 30 closest Best Buys. And see how it does. And then the smartest thing you could do, send all your friends in with your money and go buy 'em all. So they buy more and spread it out, and it works out pretty all right if you promote it correctly. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (52:15):

I mean, exactly. It is just interesting to me, man. I've always wondered what it is that why some people don't get discouraged when they get a no or it doesn't work this way. Why is it that some people are like, okay, well then how does it work and why are some people like, oh, it can't work,

Speaker 3 (52:36):

Right?

Speaker 2 (52:38):

I always wonder if that's nature or nurture

Speaker 3 (52:41):

A

Speaker 2 (52:41):

Little bit of both, or what the hell causes that?

Speaker 3 (52:44):

Yeah, I don't know, man, because I definitely didn't learn it from school. I was awful and didn't care at all. Me too. Yeah. Don't tell my daughter that in a couple of years. But yeah, and with my family, maybe it was homegrown in the sense that every time I would ask, they were like, I dunno, go try it. You know what I mean? No matter what, it was even something stupid with playing basketball and being like, man, I suck. Those kids are better. They're like, well, go figure it out and go back, whatever it is. And then with starting the label right out of high school instead of going to college, they were like, yeah, go try it for a couple of years. Maybe it works out. And I had a conversation with my dad last night, like, funny to think how you skipped college to try this music thing. And it's like, yeah, it's been 16 years ever since and still going, so thanks for letting me do that.

Speaker 2 (53:30):

That is very cool. I do think that having the right environment, and that's also luck of the draw in some ways, but I do think that having the right supportive environment can free you to be able to take risks or to dig deeper on certain things. But I think that either way, no matter what environment you come from, the thing that I've noticed a lot of successful people have is that they do dig deeper. They don't get discouraged, or if they get discouraged, they get over it very quickly and they keep going. Right.

Speaker 3 (54:03):

No, and that's absolutely it. And like you said, it's the luck of the draw. And I also think in a social media age though, there's so many people that I would say have had a hand in mentoring me from afar that I've never met finding the Gary V shit. Or there's a podcast by drama who was on Fantasy factory called Short Story Long that is super inspirational of people that have broken businesses, and he breaks it down from being a teenager all the way up into success. Your podcast, what? Finn's starting to do a lot more with the punk rock. NBA. There's so much cool shit out there that if people in someone's life are not physically helping or surrounding themselves with good people, just engulf yourself in that stuff. And honestly, from time to time, if I hit a wall, I'll throw on a couple Gary V videos or whatever it is, dude.

(54:52):

And it's crazy what it does to your brain where you're like, why the fuck am I discouraged? Fuck that. You kind of forget and need a reminder every now to really shock your system. And I think, but once that switch flips, it's flipped, it's over, then you're good for a long time. And then now it's funny because I don't have time to look at a lot of that stuff anymore, and I looked back the other day, I was like, I've missed so many of these podcasts that I used to obsess over when they were released. I have missed so many because I learned so much from the earlier ones that I haven't stopped to even look around. I'm just going head down horse with blinders on moving forward and trying to fulfill every promise that I have and grow it all

Speaker 2 (55:33):

Well, some of the best mentor types like Gary V, will tell people to only consume their self-help products or motivational products like 5% of the time and spend all the good ones say that you need to spend 95% of your time executing.

Speaker 3 (55:50):

Right. And that's absolutely it. And the best part about everyone that I named is it's all free. So it's like there's literally no excuse to not try it or find your entry point. And they all do such a great job at saying, if you've never heard me start here, you know what I mean? There's so much great stuff, and I love talking about that. I love having positive energy. Or the other day I was talking to a manager that's really discouraged because a band fired him and I rallied him back up. And I love that. I love to be able to, in five years have that manager come back to me and be like, dude, that conversation hopefully changed my outlook because I was so bummed and said, fuck everyone, and now I manage these three great bands. You know what I mean? That's my favorite thing in the world.

Speaker 2 (56:34):

I love it when people go through something rough and then realize a few years later that was what allowed them to be free to do the next great thing.

Speaker 3 (56:44):

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, in the Jimmy Iovine Defiant ones thing, he's like, the strongest thing is making all that fear be a tailwind instead of being like a wall in front of you. And it's like, it's crazy how many people put the wall up and just stop and go, oh, poor me. That sucks. It's like, no, put that behind you. What a great show, dude. I literally go back to it. It's almost like an obsession to where it's fucking up my daily routines a little bit. I just think about it. Then I go watch it, and then I 30 minutes later, I'm like, dude, go back. Figure something else out. You got to go back to work here. It's just so great. There's so much inspiration in that thing.

Speaker 2 (57:21):

Absolutely. Well, Johnny, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great talking to you.

Speaker 3 (57:26):

Thanks, anytime, man. I love what you guys are doing, especially each individually and with this all you guys are great. Keep doing what you're doing. Everyone listening. You should also say thank you to them because they put out so much great shit. It's awesome to see. Thanks, man. Thank you very much. Cool. The

Speaker 1 (57:41):

Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by the 2017 URM Summit, a once in a lifetime chance to spend four days with the next generation of audio professionals and special guests, including Andrew Wade, Kane cco, Billy Decker, fluff, Brian Hood, and many more. The inspiration, ideas, and friendship you'll get here are the things that you'll look back on as inflection points in your life. Learn [email protected]. To get in touch with the URM podcast, visit urm.com/podcast and subscribe today.