PHIL SGROSSO: As I Lay Dying’s Studio Secrets, The “Trim the Fat” Philosophy, Tour Managing Animals As Leaders

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Line six. Line six is a musical instruments manufacturing company that specializes in Guitar, amp, and affects modeling and makes guitars, amps, effects, pedals and multi effects. We introduced the world's first digital modeling amp and we're behind the groundbreaking pod multi effect, which revolutionized the industry with an easy way to record guitar with great tone. Line six will always take dramatic leaps so you can reach new heights with your music. And now your host, Beau

Speaker 2 (00:00:33):

Burchell. Welcome everyone, it's Beau Burchell back here again. Taking over another episode of the URM Podcast Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. I am really excited about today because I have one of my favorite people, Phil Sgrosso with us. If you don't know who he is, he was in as I lay dying, woven war, poison headache. He's toured with nails, he's played with us and SEN and just an all around incredible guitar player and awesome dude, professional hair farmer, and here he is. Phil, what's up?

Speaker 3 (00:01:16):

Hey Beau, thanks for having me, buddy.

Speaker 2 (00:01:19):

So dude, I posted a thing saying that we were going to be talking to you and everyone was pretty excited, which as am I, but so let's just jump right into it and we'll be fast. I have to get to a session and I know you have to take off too. So I guess let's talk as Le dying, I thought you were a founding member, but from what you were saying, you joined kind of shortly after.

Speaker 3 (00:01:42):

Yeah, so the band had formed, formed slash started in 2000 and they'd released a couple, I think one full length an ep, and then the first full length off metal blade for Edwards collapse. And I had joined right after that was released. So my touring with the bands started with that album and then led up to the next album Shadows Our Security where I finally was a contributing songwriter and performer on the album.

Speaker 2 (00:02:22):

Awesome. Here's some questions that I have and I think that people will probably want to know these answers too. So I mean, you guys were probably one of the hugest metal bands of the time, you know what I mean? To me it was like you guys kill Switch and

Speaker 3 (00:02:39):

Lama God, they've always been pretty far up there. Yeah, I'd say yeah, those bands probably started a few years ahead of us and I feel like they were always kind of big brothers to us, especially just kind of maybe having a sound that was a little more relatable with their fans. But yeah, I mean we just were always on tour, always putting albums pretty consistently. So yeah, I think that really helps keep our fan base interested in us that there was never enough time for them to find another band to, we were always keeping busy,

Speaker 2 (00:03:29):

Especially compared to now because you figure now you can put out a crazy record that is something that no one's ever heard of before. Oh my God, this is that fresh new sound you were looking for. And then as soon as you get off tour, there's four bands that copied you and are on the radio

Speaker 3 (00:03:49):

And you're not as unique anymore, which goes to show there are a lot of capable guitar players out there to hear something and be able to emulate it, I guess. But no one can really emulate Lamb of God or something. They can all try and be close, but I mean a hate breed, it's like how many hardcore bands have there been after hate breed and hate breed, hate breed. But I think if you really have that you're kind of a pioneer with a sound, then people will be close, but they'll still never match it. Or who knows, maybe they reinvent it and are better than you.

Speaker 2 (00:04:33):

Yeah, I mean, being that this is a show about recording, how much of,

Speaker 4 (00:04:38):

Let's

Speaker 2 (00:04:39):

Just say your sound do you feel like is made up of gear versus the percentage that comes from you and your hands or you and your, or I guess before we get into playability, how much of it do you think just is in the riffs you write

Speaker 3 (00:04:57):

Gear and I have always had this weird relationship that I don't really like it. I am intrigued by it and I'm intrigued by always just learning something new. But my passion with music stems mostly from how a song is written, how this story of these notes here lead into these other notes here and your root notes are changing and it's kind of like how this song is evolving, but I guess a big part of it is having a good team in the studio with you, or once it goes off to mixing and mastering, it's like we always liked having Colin Richardson involved or Andy Snee and stuff like that. So you hired these guys that you trust to take what you've kind of done and bring it to the next level.

Speaker 2 (00:05:51):

First off, the fact that you got to work with Andy Snip and Colin Richardson is just insane to me. It's pretty awesome.

Speaker 4 (00:06:00):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:06:01):

Okay. So being that you've produced records with Adam D and had records mixed by Andy sne and Colin Richardson, how important is say the production compared to the mixing or the mixing compared to the production? Do you feel like one is more important than the other?

Speaker 3 (00:06:22):

I think production is obviously that's the foundation for everything, obviously starting with the drums, going to guitars and then splitting off to bass and vocals after that and then adding all the other auxiliary stuff. I mean, you really have to get it pretty awesome. I mean, it's got to be great because if you're wanting to keep pushing the sound of the genre, you want to go in there with great results from the studio and then hand it off to a guy like Andy Snip or Colin and be like, Hey, just elevate this, make this even greater. And every time we were so happy with what the results were coming from both of them, but I think they had some good stuff to work with, some good performances, some good takes, and I think the collaboration of Little Bumps here and there, little DB bumps and add this and add that little collaboration from our end still going on, always just made it better and better. And then obviously you hand it to a guy like Ted Jensen to master it and it's like, yeah, there's no reason to get another pass from Ted Jensen.

Speaker 4 (00:07:39):

It's

Speaker 3 (00:07:40):

Like, and one and done. So I think you, throughout the whole process, obviously from when you're demoing and you're in the room jamming, you're like, the whole goal here is to make this better and better pretty much on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 (00:07:55):

Yeah, it's funny you say that because even in our couple months touring together, I feel like that kind of hard work attitude is very, that's just you. You know what I mean? As a person, you're very much like, alright, I need to do my best, make sure I'm really delivering everything and doing everything to the best of my ability. So I dunno, I think that it kind of all makes sense now that you guys just worked that hard on the records. So I guess to dig a little deeper at that, I don't know very many people that have had the chance to work with a team like you said, like Adam D and then those mixers and then Ted Jensen. So when you were done producing the record before it was mixed, are you generally at the feeling of like, man, this record's pretty good. I'm pretty happy with it, it just needs a little bit better mix?

Speaker 3 (00:08:52):

Well, a lot of the time before even going into tracking, officially tracking the album, we had already tracked pre-pro with a dedicated engineer like Daniel Castleman. We had already laid down drums, recorded everything, and then we were prepared from that point we're like show 'em to the label and they'd be like, wow, these demos sound great. And it's like, cool, well they're going to sound greater now. We're going to have this guy on board and this guy on board and we're just going to, I guess we were more than prepared and we had figured out just already by pre tracking things what we needed to fix and all that stuff. And we were always just very prepared for the most part, even though generally I would always want to add a million other things later on, but I guess that answers that.

Speaker 2 (00:09:57):

Yeah, so I mean it sounds like you guys pretty much had the record done before even going into the studio. So with a band like you guys, what does a producer do or what are you looking for?

Speaker 3 (00:10:11):

So I guess once we had gotten Adam D on board, he was about trim the fad and lines don't bore us get to the course. And as I would see a part as four, I'm like, okay, yeah, just do things in four. He is like, Hey, cut that in half. I'm like, do as two. And he's like, trust me, trust me. Once that mentality sunk in, it was like, yeah, wow, that really just, we don't need that part to be as long as it was. And it really just helps move everything along. And Adam d also being like, Hey, let's get a third chorus. We used to be a two chorus band say on Shadows Our Security, and then he's like, let's get another chorus after the bridge. And we're like, really just can't go in this heavy part and be done. And so he was so helpful in us finding those songwriting, just that ability, and not to say every song has to be a three chorus song and we did two records with Adam, and you learn from someone like that, someone who's better than you at something who's been doing it for so long that you learn their tricks and then you kind of know what they would say,

(00:11:36):

Oh, Adam would totally do this, but you then have that mentality as you're writing, so you're always having this producer mentality from the point of when you start creating. And so then we were like, okay, well let's go with a different producer. We could totally have Adam back on board again, but we kind of need to just change it up. So that's when we went with Bill Stevenson

(00:11:57):

Who plays drums for Descendants and recorded a lot of the rise against records and it seemed like more of a, as our band was kind of gaining success, it was like, well, we need to break off into this world that it's just a little more, I mean we always wanted to have technical metal risk, but we also wanted to that less is more approach with some songs. So we thought Bill would be great for that. And then Bill really reintroduced a lot of new ideas to us as well. So that's why we wanted to work with him again on Woven Wars first album. So yeah, I would say that producers kind of bring in just that fresh perspective on how a song's arrangement, how the flow should be. And also they're just the mediator. They really have to between five different opinions. They have to be the one that lets people know that their opinion is heard and make everyone feel like they're involved. But at the end of the day, you trust your producer is pretty much that sixth member to get things in a right place that everyone's on board with.

Speaker 2 (00:13:04):

So from there, walk me through the process of what it's like to produce a record with somebody huge like that and you're in the band, so once you're done tracking everything, is it you get to go home with Ruffs or is it just like, I remember hearing the record in the studio, but I have no idea what it actually sounds like because I've never taken it home and listened to it in my car or anything.

Speaker 3 (00:13:32):

Yeah, I would say, I mean, I can't remember. We would kind of get studio roughs, but I didn't like hearing it unless, what was the point if, oh, there's no bass on this so there's no vocals. It's like, oh, I've spent all day with the guitars. It's like I already know the guitars are fine, drums are already, if we're already on guitars, then drums pretty much are good. Even though changes do come along where you're like, Hey, we should edit this drum part because this new guitar part's cooler and blah blah blah. But it's not until start getting, you send 'em off to mixing and then you get that first rough back and you're so excited. Like what did they do? What did they do to the guitar tone? What did they do to the drums? How are they getting this new power added to everything? Which is, for me, that's the appeal of Andy sne and Colin is that they just can either pull so much power or add power to the part that you're just like, wow, our snare sounded weak before, and you kind of know what they're doing, but at the same time, no one does it like them.

(00:14:45):

So that was always the most exciting. And there never really, there's little tweaks, the one db, the two DB tweaks that I would generally have a pretty long list of just kind of how I want things to hear stand out and stuff like that. I'm the freak with that stuff and probably drives them crazy, but I've sat there with Colin before and when he came out to San Diego and mixed, it was the Powerless Rise album and he was like, Phil, you get behind the computer, you make the little tweaks that you want to hear. And he was always on board with everything. And so it was, I dunno, very validating that, hey, maybe I'm not crazy because Collin's in the back of the room airing because he's so stoked on how all those little tweaks make it sound better. I guess

Speaker 2 (00:15:47):

I would agree with that a hundred percent. I do think that that is a quality of a really good, and what's the word I'm looking for, a confident mixer, you know what I mean? Someone that knows that getting the right feedback from the right members of the band can actually really help elevate the mix and the record to a level that may not have been capable without that feedback. And especially with someone who's as dialed in with the songs as someone like you or anyone else that was there for the tracking and knows has the vision of it. Especially when I do mixes, it's like when bands are able to come in and be like, oh yeah, no, I've got this vision. This is supposed to be like this. There's definitely, yeah, exactly those moments where you're sitting there, man, that is so cool. I didn't see it that way, but it's so much better.

Speaker 3 (00:16:43):

Totally. Yeah, I mean I've heard of Nightmares with other vans where it's a total opposite approach with the guy mixing and you're like, how did that happen? But I guess how did you guys even get in a room and decide to do a record together? That sounds like a terrible pairing, but that's why it takes a good level of intuition, I guess, to know who you're going in with and you are like hopefully they're a team player with what our vision is. And fortunately it's been great,

Speaker 4 (00:17:23):

Even

Speaker 3 (00:17:24):

When it comes down to we're a week past our master the labels saying we're behind, we got to push the release date back. And you're like, no, but this one guitar lead has to have this one DB bump. It's like, I don't care, it needs this or I can't listen to it ever again.

Speaker 2 (00:17:45):

I guess that's on the mixing side of things. And then what is it like on, because you figure Adam D is just known for such a guitar tone guy, what is it, what's the process in the tone dialing in department? Is it the type of thing where you guys just plug in to an Amp sim and Pro Tools or do you rent every amp in San Diego and then try 'em out? Or is it like he shows up with an amp, this is the one, or how does it work?

Speaker 3 (00:18:16):

Well, back then, I mean their amps and simulators weren't really a thing I don't think. I mean, we're talking over for shadows. That was 12 years ago. Funny story, an ocean between us. The first album that Adam did with us is 10 years old as of yesterday.

Speaker 2 (00:18:37):

Oh dude. Well, happy Birthday.

Speaker 3 (00:18:42):

Which I was like, wait, on a Monday. I was like, I thought they came out on Tuesdays anyway.

Speaker 2 (00:18:46):

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (00:18:47):

I'm confused. And I'm like, all right, whatever. So basically it was, and I was really young back then. I didn't know, like I said, Geer and I haven't always had this great relationship, so I always have to give credit to Adam or to Andy Nee and to Colin Richardson because they would re-amp our guitars.

Speaker 4 (00:19:07):

Oh.

Speaker 3 (00:19:07):

So that's part of how we viewed the mixing process was that they have the gift of getting the best guitar tones and we'd hear stories from them how bands are like, don't touch our guitar tone. We printed it how we want it to sound. But then from that point, Andy and Colin would have to shape the drums and everything around and kind of work with how these guitar tones sit in the mix.

(00:19:39):

So I mean, it would've been ideal. And we actually had the opportunity on Powerless Rise when we brought Colin out to bring him 12 different amps and they checked all of them and they were like, alright guys, here's the shootout. And we were like, this one, we love this sound. And then it's like, all right, get our hands on it, make these little baby tweaks with them. And it was like that was the collaborative part of getting our guitar tone with them. But for the most part we always viewed it these guys, Andy Snip, especially as just the king of metal guitar tones.

Speaker 2 (00:20:18):

And then, so obviously time goes on as dying is no longer, how is the process different in woven war than in as Dying? And what I mean by that is going from being what I'll say is one of the hugest bands in the world, in the metal world, to basically having to start over

Speaker 3 (00:20:43):

Starting the four of Us, the instrumental side of asla, dying kind, sticking together and having that musical bond carrying over into that wasn't as drastic as four other guys who've never played in the band together. So we kind of knew we had our way of how things worked. And then obviously the big thing is bringing in a new singer and adjusting the sound to that Singer's strengths, which was the more melodic singing. It was not a single real scream on that first record from Shane. So it was something that we were always interested in doing. And I feel like the Asle Dun sound musically was sort of headed in that direction,

(00:21:39):

Although we would've still probably done a lot more metal or thrash sort of things. Woven war wasn't that thrash element and because Shane's singing over a thrash song wouldn't really suit his strengths. So we kept things making the music more rock based, I guess it kind of had that tinge of Rockness, but still it was at a time where I was like, man, I am so tired of hearing breakdowns the way that they've been for the past 10 years. So it was like, let's not do this. There's kind of this mental checklist of let's not do this, let's add these other elements here and give it a shot. And it was a very controversial amongst our Dazzle Dying fans controversial album and was, I think there were just a lot of things when you're four guys coming from the same band before, it's like, well, why isn't this, as I lay dying,

(00:22:45):

Why isn't this the same thing and why I don't get what you guys did? It's such a letdown and you're like, well, this isn't, as I lay dying, this is something new and sorry, sorry, that we're the ones the band had to stop playing and figure out what to do next. It's our fault for taking this risk of a new sound we were interested in pursuing. So overall, we're all very proud of it. But then from that first album to the second one, it was like, alright, what elements do we want to add again and not do? Which a lot of people would probably agree that it's a heavier album.

(00:23:32):

And I think that was something that we all collectively were like, alright, let's get back to the heavy stuff, go out on tour and it's like, man, we're kind of the lighter band out of all this. And it's like, man, let's get it heavy again. So that was a big motivating factor to do that. And yeah, I'm still just as proud of that album as well, and it's a lot different changing the tuning on that album kind of, it's just a whole different register than anything that we had done before. So it's still something that's like whenever I hear it or hear a song, I'm like, oh, that's still refreshing to hear. At least

Speaker 2 (00:24:19):

For me, I actually really love that record and I still get excited When you were in the back of the bus just listening to the mixes over and over again, making those notes of the Half DB up here, one DB there, what the heck is this? Oh man, this needs to be fixed. This has got to be up. This is wrong. Where's my solo? Why is this muted? I just remember that and it's so cool to hear the record all finished and you're right because it totally, all those notes just make it so great.

Speaker 3 (00:24:52):

It just brings it together. And you're obviously a production guy, so you're probably the same exact way that you hear it a certain way and you just got to see it through until it's right.

Speaker 2 (00:25:08):

Yeah. So now I guess moving from woven war, you've got Poison Headache, right?

Speaker 3 (00:25:15):

Yeah, poison Headache's been a band with two other guys, two of my good buddies back from San Diego that we've been jamming some of those songs for a long time, many, many years. And it was just to get any momentum really going with that because I wasn't doing the Asle dying stuff, doing the W war thing. It was just more of a fun jam thing, man, these songs are really fun, but are they ever going to see the light of day? So then finally there was a window of time to do it and it was awesome because Poison Headache is on Asle dying or woven war obviously.

(00:25:58):

So it was this other side of me that really loves hardcore and more, I guess, crossover whatever, mixed with just more Crustier riffs or something in Tombed, like an throw an HM two pedal in there or something just dirty or a crowbar sounding riff. And it's just a whole other side of me that I never could do really with Asla dying or woven more. And so it was finally the time to do that and that record I took on doing a lot of the vocals, I engineered all the guitars, I recorded the bass, I sang some on it. So it was really like, if this is ever going to get done, I really got to do a lot with it, even writing lyrics, which I had never really done before. But in doing all these things, I found, wow, this is really fulfilling for me. And even though it's more like a punk kind of hardcore thing, I'm really proud that me and my buddies were able to finish this record and kind of start this other journey with this sound of what we can do.

Speaker 2 (00:27:17):

Yeah, I mean ultimately I think that the people like us that are doing it, that have such a high passion for it to us, it really is something that we have to do. And it's like, yeah, when you get, it's like you have to do these projects and it's like you have to have an outlet for your creativity and your music and yeah, you're right. As soon as you get these projects done, you're like, wow, I am so fulfilled.

Speaker 3 (00:27:46):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:27:46):

Awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:27:47):

It's rewarding.

Speaker 2 (00:27:49):

And you're speaking of taking on other jobs, you're also working in, I guess more of the management side with a couple different bands too now, right?

Speaker 3 (00:27:58):

Yeah, it sort of started the whole tour managing thing is that none of my bands had things going on this year, so I'm like, alright, well how can I, last year I was doing four different musical projects with doing the woven war record, the Poison Headache record, playing Eosin songs, learning and playing nails songs, and I was pretty busy as a guitar player and once this year started it was like, Hey, everyone's just going to chill out. And I left woven war and I was like, okay, well I need to be doing something music related and if I'm not going to be doing guitar right now, then how else can I put my strengths to good use? And the management side of things sort of worked out. I've got this artist author and Punisher from San Diego who from the first moment I saw him, I was mesmerized by what he does as a one man sort of electronic industrial doom band.

(00:29:10):

And him and I sort of became friends and just the idea of he probably needs help with a lot of things. He's a one man band and he does so much, he's one of the hardest working guys. And I just was like, dad, do you need help with anything? And that's kind of how that relationship started out. And then from there, found the ban animals as leaders, not having management but being at a level of success that they need help with some things. And that's kind of how my management partner, Matt and I sort of got involved and then from there it was like, Hey, can you guys find us a tour manager for the tour? And I was like, when are the dates and saw the routing? And I was like, I'll just go out and do it and figuring out their light production and all this stuff. I was like, this is great because it gets me still out on the road, which I've always been doing since I was 18, but I can also help this band in other ways and I'm totally fortunate enough that I still have this music related job that I can help out these other bands that I believe in.

Speaker 2 (00:30:27):

It's pretty inspiring too, I guess just the way that it seems like whatever you put your mind to do and to learn whatever the task, it seems like you're able to put in the hard work and accomplish it, whether it be like you said, oh, well they need this, I'm going to learn how to do it and go do it. And it's not like you're just tour managing. That's not just going out and saying like, oh yeah, my friend's band is going to go and do some shows at a local bar and I just have to get them drink tickets. They're like a no joke band. I mean, they're huge.

Speaker 3 (00:31:06):

Yeah, I guess I've just been trying to take on these things that it's a little intimidating at first, but it's kind of, well, once you get into it and start doing it, you'd be surprised at what you're capable of doing. And there's always so much more obviously that I have to learn and I like learning new things. And maybe for the longest time, I mean like learning new songs, it was always like, oh, this band wants me to play with them. I can't wait to get the songs so I can start learning them. So with a new task is tour managing, I was like, I feel like I can do that. I feel like it's something that I'd be okay spending my time doing. And once I took it on, I was really, really stoked to be doing it. And so from that point on, they wanted me to finish out the rest of this year and kind of see what goes on next year, but it's like, well, I'm glad that they're happy and they know that I am willing to do whatever it takes and work my ass off to get the job done.

Speaker 2 (00:32:14):

Yeah. Do you ever feel like you have an advantage being a tour manager because you were in a band and you know what you want from a tour manager? Sometimes I feel like I have an advantage producing or mixing because I'm in a band and I know what I want from them, so it's pretty easy to kind of like, oh yeah, well, if I was a tour manager, the things that are important to me is when I wake up in the morning, I want a day sheet and I want to know where the nearest coffee is, what the wifi password is and where the showers

Speaker 3 (00:32:50):

Exactly. Yeah, this is what I would want and that's how I see that my strengths work in that way as opposed to if I had some other random job, I'm like, this isn't music.

(00:33:04):

It is totally relatable for me, even though I can't relate to my bunk in the afternoon, it's like I'm usually one of the first guys to be in the venue and get things rolling. It's like, you know what? I don't mind this because I don't mind working hard. It's just got to be for something that I'm passionate about. So yeah, I would totally say that for the most part, the guys can, whoever I work for, they can rely on me that, yeah, you've done this before, you don't want to suffer and you want to make this as easy as possible. So that's generally what I try to do.

Speaker 2 (00:33:44):

No, that's cool. We actually have a lot of questions from subscribers, so you cool if I fire off some of those

Speaker 3 (00:33:54):

Fire off, I'll try to keep 'em brief. I sometimes just, we'll talk forever, so cut me

Speaker 2 (00:33:59):

Off. You and me both. I'm like diarrhea mouth. Chris, funny, I don't know if this is a common thing or not, but Chris I, I forget how it came up, but anyways, he was telling me a story about me and he mentioned that I will sometimes get him in what he calls a small talk headlock and he's like, yeah, dude, sometimes he just won't shut up and you keep repeating yourself and you just keep talking about shit that doesn't matter. And I'm like, I don't know man. I'm sorry, I just talking to people,

Speaker 3 (00:34:39):

It's like the Larry David stop and chat and how do I get out of

Speaker 2 (00:34:46):

This? Totally. Anyways, but yeah, Rodney says the rhythm section and everything that you're involved with has always been a goal of mine to obtain. How the hell do you come up with such catchy riffs? They have the ability to be where I can literally hum them out. And are they're memorable? I guess what he's asking is what is the secret to you writing such sick rifts?

Speaker 3 (00:35:12):

Yeah, it's the hardest thing to answer how you are the way you are. I guess what I focus on for me as being a musical person is listening to good music for the most part, listening to something that is inspiring to me that the sound could influence how I am. So I've always listened to things with good guitar playing for the most part. To me it has good guitar playing and it stands out like, wow, that's a memorable riff. I can do the same thing with all of my favorite bands. And even after just hearing it once. So I've always just kind of wanted to write things that are memorable for other people and just a little melody here and there. I don't know how it got shaped in my mind of how a melody should be, but I always was like, well, I like this. At the end of the day I'm like, hopefully my band likes this, the band, the band. Because ultimately you're writing for your band. I mean, it starts with you, Hey, this isn't too bad. Might as well put it down on the record tape or put it into Pro Tools and then you go, Hey guys, you send it off to them and it's like, you're nervous. I hope they like it. They could just totally say, no, this is dog crap. And just like, Nope, which we've all been there. It's

Speaker 4 (00:36:38):

Like,

Speaker 3 (00:36:38):

Wow, man, I thought that had a chance, but nope, dog crap. So then once they say, oh my God, I love that, that's great. You're just like, awesome. This is going to become something that gets thrown out to the rest of the world. And fortunately, a lot of it's resonated with a lot of the fans that they're like, wow, that's something that they want to listen to as well. But my whole thing is just be inspired by what you listen to and kind of push yourself to create something that is unique in a way, somewhat unique. Originality is always a thing of, man, I haven't heard this before and this is kind of a clever thing. It's just those few things. It's like, well, that makes, I am now content with this riff. So other than that, that's all I got.

Speaker 2 (00:37:40):

Here's another one from Rodney. He says, this may be odd, but I am really curious of the guitar tone on Nothing left. I'm assuming you know what song he's talking about, right?

Speaker 3 (00:37:52):

Yes, I do.

Speaker 2 (00:37:53):

During the opening riff, there seems to be this resonance woof coming from the guitars when they palm mute. It's always been kind of an ear candy thing for me. Any memory on what that setup and mic being used on that is?

Speaker 3 (00:38:07):

That was, like I said, going back to the call was Colin or that was an Andy Reamp.

Speaker 2 (00:38:18):

What did you use for guitars?

Speaker 3 (00:38:20):

For guitars back then? I feel like we always used a Les Paul studio with an EMG 81 on that record. Nothing too crazy, nothing just that was the standard back then before I guess Fishman influences came around, but I would say that, and maybe just, I have a pretty heavy right hand, so I would say why maybe some things don't, what makes me sound different than some other players playing the same riff is that, well, I beat into the strings really hard without taking them out of pitch, obviously. And Adam D is the same guy, Hannah a guitar and is just very overpowering, right hand, James Hetfield, that kind of thing. So I would say that's a big part of it. But as far as the amp that was used, I am starting to draw blank on that, but I know calling Mike's, I would have to say that I just can't even remember. I wouldn't even want to give a wrong answer.

Speaker 4 (00:39:40):

Right.

Speaker 3 (00:39:41):

So maybe I can find out again what it was and I text it to you or something.

Speaker 2 (00:39:45):

Okay. But the positive Id we got was Les Paul studio with the EMG 81.

Speaker 4 (00:39:53):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:39:53):

It's so funny how that's just the classic that everyone wants to hate on, but has been so great on so many records.

Speaker 3 (00:40:01):

Exactly. I mean, if it's not broken, don't fix it. But at the same time, there's the Fishman fluence, it makes me want to play guitar more.

Speaker 2 (00:40:15):

Oh yeah, I remember dude, first day of rehearsals with you, and I remember I thought my rig sounded so sick, and then you showed up with your guitar.

Speaker 3 (00:40:31):

My Charl, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:40:32):

Yep. And just a 51 50 and your tone blew me away, and I was so just confused and upset and it's only a feeling that you get if you're a guitar player and another guitar player has his tone schools you and you can't figure out why. You know what I mean? You're just like, dude, my world just got turned upside down. I've always had the best tone. What's going on right now? Am I in some sort of weird twilight zone? What the hell? Yeah, I just remember then when you went to go to lunch, I think you went to Jimmy, and then I plugged my guitar into your amp and I was like, oh man, this 51 50 sounds awesome. I was like, Nope, still doesn't sound as good as Phil. And then I plugged your guitar into my amp and I was like, shit, that sounds way better than my guitar. But still, it was, even when I picked up your guitar and plugged it into your amp, it was like, I still don't sound as crushing as Phil. Like, alright, fine Phil, you win.

Speaker 3 (00:41:46):

It was my job to keep you on your toes, but if you spend time with it enough, then you are just like, man, this feels so good. This sounds so good. And I love my Charl guitars, and from the second I got my hands on one, I was really stoked on it. Same with Throw the Fishman in there, and I've always been happy with that. It's like I couldn't picture really changing to something else at this point.

Speaker 2 (00:42:21):

Yeah, yeah. I mean for me, the Fishmans are just so sick and every other guitar that comes into the studio, it's always a noticeable difference, even if the guitar player likes his guitar a little bit better and he's usually just kind of like, it's a mental block about it. The rest of the band always picks the guitar with the Fishman's in it.

Speaker 4 (00:42:45):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:42:45):

Like, oh dude, that one's just better. It sounds clear and way more just better. I can't even describe it. And it's like just

Speaker 3 (00:42:51):

Better. Oh shit. More better.

Speaker 2 (00:42:53):

Yeah. Okay. Alright, well moving on. John Perfo, he just says Practice routines. Did you have any practice routines that you were doing during when you were just shredding all the time

Speaker 3 (00:43:07):

On tour?

Speaker 2 (00:43:08):

Yeah. Or I guess maybe. Yeah, mainly tour. Let's stick to touring.

Speaker 3 (00:43:12):

Touring, I usually just had a few drinks. I didn't really warm up that often. I didn't like warming up. I don't really warming up. And it was also this back in, I was dying days. I was mean. I'd come home from tour and not even touch my guitar for weeks. So it was just, if I'm not inspired to pick it up and create with it, then I don't have practiced techniques and things. Really over the years I've kind of learned maybe as I was getting more technical things with Asla dying, I was like, okay, this kind of might as well. But I always felt confident that if I had a drink or a few drinks that my mind would not be overthinking as much as I do

(00:44:04):

And I would just play guitar because it felt good to play guitar as opposed to I got to play this riff perfectly. I got to play this song perfectly and oh no, I just messed up. And then now that I'm thinking that I'm messed up, I'm messing up again on this next part. And it's just like I had rather just be loose and calm and just enjoy playing and enjoy how it sounds. So I think once I started jamming with you guys, I just was getting to this point of I just playing guitar more often, so it's not that I'm warming up, I'm just like, this is fun again. This is fun to do.

Speaker 2 (00:44:42):

Actually. You know what? Now that I think about it, I do remember you were just always jamming no matter what you were like. Yeah. Now that I actually think about it, you just always had a guitar and you were creating back there.

Speaker 4 (00:44:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:44:57):

Back in Phil's apartment in the back of the bus that you just, Phil's apartment you took over our back lounge.

Speaker 3 (00:45:03):

Well, I was also learning a lot of things too. I mean if I'm learning nail songs and it's like that kind of was my warmup on Taste of Chaos was I got these nail songs, I got to learn like, oh, I'm good, I'm good on this sales and stuff speed wise. Then with, there's this other band that I was trying out for at the time and was learning all these solos and stuff and then I was trying to make Sayon songs have more butt rock stuff to it with these squeals and bends. I was like, yeah, I feel like I'm just immersed in guitar right now and just having fun with it. That's

Speaker 2 (00:45:41):

Awesome. Yeah. We covered this a little bit. Dave Escobar says, I'd love to hear about Asalia dying, working with Colin Richardson and Adam d. Any details about those sessions would be awesome. We kind of discussed it a little bit. Can you tell us anything? Royce Whitaker says, I'm really interested to know Adam D's tracking methods and what he uses in his chain. His stuff is always the tightest. Any insight on that?

Speaker 3 (00:46:12):

I mean, back then I wasn't looking over the engineer's shoulder as much as I do now, so I can't really,

(00:46:21):

Adam is very, I mean the first record working with Adam, knowing his history, having toured with Kill Switch is kind of a nervous sort of like, oh, he's going to track me and know that I learned that I really suck at guitar and I'm going to be frustrated with myself and he's probably going to be like, I could do that in my sleep. And so I was really nervous and Adam, he knows me, we're really good buddies and he's always told me he is like, you think way too much about stuff. And he is a pretty less kind of guy and I've always just wanted to hear guitars a certain way. And on the Powerless Rise, he thought I was crazy and I think he stopped tracking me and Daniel Castleman would come in because probably because I liked working with Daniel a lot and I think Daniel was patient with me with how crazy I was and he was also willing to do whatever it was versus Adam who's like, no man, it's fine. It doesn't need to be changed. And I'd be like, no, I'm looking at it right there. I heard it, I heard it, but I'm also pointing at the waveform of what I want changed.

(00:47:45):

But I listen back to those guitars and I say those are, to me, they're pretty tight guitars. I'm proud of how tight it, you could solo those out and anyone who wanted to hear like those, that's the best I could do and I'm pretty stoked on it. So I think Adam, as much as he's done so many more mechanical metal records, Adam's like a rock guy and a lot of times he's like, I only listen to Top 40 Radio. He's very pop structure oriented as in just a song being a good song and having a good flow to it.

Speaker 2 (00:48:31):

And you hear that a lot with Kill Switch.

Speaker 3 (00:48:33):

Absolutely. They know how to write a hit. So I think he knew enough that we were good players. He had, as a producer, you've got all the elements there that can do their job, just he has to trim the fat and be the overseer of all things because as a producer you're making sure from coming from your demo sessions, getting your drums in order, you're pre relay and all that stuff, and getting all your markers and just the structure of the recording process, it starts here and it ends here and it's got to be done or else it's on your producer's ass

Speaker 2 (00:49:12):

Right now. Would you say working with Adam and Bill Stevenson in, they were basically the two producers that you guys worked with in Asle dying, right?

Speaker 4 (00:49:27):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:49:30):

Did they kind of track records in the traditional sense of, okay, let's track drums first, then bass, then guitars, then vocals, or was there anything unusual about the way either one of them worked that you remember?

Speaker 3 (00:49:43):

I would say no, pretty traditional drums going first and then guitars and then splitting it off to bass and vocals once rhythms for a song were done. And then I would do a lot of the overdubs and if a song had a lead that Nick was playing or a solo, then he would do it. And for the albums that Adam did, we eventually got to a point where we set up two guitar stations to where I could be tracking all the rhythms and then Nick could be doing whatever leads in the solos he was doing. So we could both kind of be productive during the day as opposed to, Hey, I'm going to work first from eight to not 8:00 AM probably 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM and then you come in 6:00 PM to midnight. It was like, no, we both want to work during the day, so we would start getting these two guitar stations going, having two different engineers. That's cool. So I think it was like everyone could feel like they're productive during the day, but nothing really, nothing really crazy. Pretty traditional still

Speaker 2 (00:51:03):

You guys just mainly double track guitars or quad rhythms?

Speaker 3 (00:51:08):

Always double rhythms for sure. And then we would do thunder chugs as we would call them. So for a lot of the heavy parts, we would throw another two guitars in there and I would sort of thicken things up here and there really make it punch, I guess.

Speaker 2 (00:51:30):

So when you call it thunder chugs, say if you had a riff that was kind of like, so you would basically do another track that was type of thing,

Speaker 3 (00:51:47):

It would be shout out to on Earth, by the way.

Speaker 2 (00:51:51):

Do the best dude best breakdown ever of all time?

Speaker 3 (00:51:55):

I know, I know you're a fan. Yeah, definitely one of the best for sure. I would say we would probably, yeah, actually just the chugs, just why not

Speaker 2 (00:52:05):

Just to make those heavier,

Speaker 3 (00:52:07):

Just really get that thicker sound out of the chugs and I don't know, just kind of always did that and yeah, we just always did that.

Speaker 2 (00:52:20):

Okay, awesome. Kyle Davis, wondering about your musical background growing up. Did you have any musical background growing up?

Speaker 3 (00:52:30):

I did. I started playing guitar when I was 10. I saw the Nirvana smells like Teen Spirit video probably when I was nine or something, so I didn't get my hands on a guitar until I was 10. And my dad was like, well, if you're going to play this, then you're going to take lessons. So I immediately got into lessons and my older brother is, well, he's a few years older, and we started with classical guitar, and so our teacher was classically trained and that was learning notes and all that notation and all that stuff. So it was something that has always been part of my mind, I guess, with having this attachment to classical music. But I'd also be learning about Alison Changs and Wheezer and I'd asked my teacher, can you teach me their songs? And so half the lesson would be classical and then, Hey, did you do your homework and all this stuff.

(00:53:37):

And the other half would be him teaching me all these riffs from bands that I really loved. And then I started seeing when you watch someone learning, picking apart a riff, learning, okay, where's the root note? Here's the root note, and then here's the scale they're kind of doing. And then just walking them, do it, then write it down for you. Alright, here you go, kid. Do learn it. And that's kind of when I started learning other people's songs because I had seen him do it. I started feeling confident that, hey, maybe I could do this. So I did lessons with him for, I want to say three years and every weekend, three years. And then I think my parents moved and then I had stopped doing lessons, always still playing guitar. I was always grounded a lot, so if I couldn't go out and skateboard, I would have guitar to do and Guitar World and like I said, learning people's songs.

(00:54:36):

And then I got lessons from another teacher who was more of this shred guy, taught me some Van Halen stuff and taught me how to improvise over all these chords and kind of basic chords, like blue stuff, and then just improvise, here's your scale, and just go. And he'd show me some little bendis and techniques and stuff here and there that he would do. And then I would try to do the same. And so I've always had this ability to sort of improvise over some stuff, whereas like, Hey, I got this rhythm track going, maybe it needs this melody over it too, so then I could easily do kind of a rhythm and then a lead. And so that's kind of how I was shaped into the guitar player I am is from those two guys who, their influence on me, I guess.

Speaker 2 (00:55:35):

Cool. I wish so badly. I would've gotten guitar lessons as a kid, but I never did.

Speaker 3 (00:55:42):

That's pretty good for, I mean, yeah, you hear those guys, they're like, oh, that guy's never, he just learned all on his own. It's like, that's crazy. You need, but I'm sure hearing your story of how it shaped your playing, it's like you probably just watched guys really closely or you've always had a great ear, obviously, if you've been attracted to production, so it's like it's a crazy journey going that way too.

Speaker 2 (00:56:10):

Yeah. Okay. Zach Knight says, what kind of music inspires you now? Are you still a metal mostly guy, or do you find new styles more interesting? The fact that pop music has had a subtle tropical influences appear over the past five years, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (00:56:28):

I will always like a band, an artist with good guitar playing. It's what I've always attracted to. Do I always want to listen to guitar playing? No, I listen mostly these days, the classical music. So I am going back to my roots, but I've always had this attraction to composing and doing more violin scoring stuff. So I listen to a lot of Han Zimmer, I love James Newton Howard and Danny Elfman. I love that style of, these are instruments I can't play with my hands, but I can get a keyboard and I can do the midi for it. And I guess you go to Trent Resner and Atticus Ross and you're like, man, these are just crazy sounds. And it's like, I attract a lot to that as well. But generally, I love bands like OPEC Macon for kind of the out there spacey sort of stuff. And same with Inflames will always be one of my favorite bands. I think Bjorn just has one of those ears for melodies that it's like, that aligns with what I would want to hear.

Speaker 2 (00:57:52):

Me too.

Speaker 3 (00:57:53):

Yeah. Yeah, right. So I do listen. I like a good pop hit. I like a good Ace of Bass was the first, lemme see the first CD I ever got, and every time I hear Ace of Bass I'm like, God, these are the best melodies ever. I am. That was just pop music way back then. And it's like I've always had that respect for pop music, but do I care most of the time? No. It sort of has to find me before I would go out and find a good pop song.

Speaker 2 (00:58:31):

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Plus it's like, man, have you ever tried to go find a good pop song on iTunes or something? You have to sift through 20 pounds of crap and it's just not even worth it. My brain is drained after hearing the first six garbage pale songs.

Speaker 3 (00:58:55):

Yeah, same way. I guess I won't even say this example. I might lose all metal credibility. Yes, I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:59:06):

Okay, let's see. Mark Wooten Hogan. He says, any advice on how to build a picking hand stamina like yours? I know a lot of practice is key, but if you could any advice and not just play song X over and over again.

Speaker 3 (00:59:27):

Yeah, right. The thing is, I didn't get into metal music until I was a junior or senior in high school. So I was into punk music and I guess emo had a phase, but emo, I would not say contributed to my, I hate even saying emo, but normal.

Speaker 2 (00:59:50):

I'm just picturing you with red eyeliner and never a como, like a swoopy front shoulder length, red tips haircut.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):

I never did red tips. I never did eyeliner. I did the girl jeans. We'll say that. Shout out to whoever wore girl jeans before. It was getting made fun of, right? It's like, wait, I'm like a metalhead now too. Metalheads wear girl jeans. Okay. Anyway, back to it. I'm from San Diego, so it's like, bro, punk is such the norm, but I love bands like strung out, lag, wagging, no effects and stuff like that. So guys who probably grew up listening to Slayer and stuff in Metallica, that's how they got their speed and their right hand ability. And then I'm listening to those guys to get my speed and right hand ability. And then once I got in the medal, it wasn't really a hard transition because I understood, I guess maybe from my years of classical, I'm like, oh, this is D minor or drop C minor, whatever it was. It's like I get this scale, I can do that. So I guess it was an easy transition, but I guess then I was getting into the Metallica's and then I was getting into this and that. I was like Man and Fear Factory. And I was like, man, Dino's right hand is the fastest and most mechanical,

(01:01:30):

And I still listen to Fear Factor to this day. And I'm like, God know, it's crazy. It's inhuman. So I've always been drawn to that. So it's not, I guess MGA you could say too. And it's not hard for me to do. I don't know, I've just always been like, yes. Right-hand of death. And if you could down pick it or downstroke it, that's what you got to do.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):

I agree. Well dude, Phil, it's been awesome. Thanks so much for coming on. This was great. And again, thanks for taking the time and I think people are going to be psyched.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):

I hope so. And thanks for having me on it, Beau, and it's been nice to finally catch up after having a few months off.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):

I know, I know. We got to get back at it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):

Let's riff out one of these days.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):

All right, cool. I'll talk to you, Phil. Thanks. Alright, later. Bye.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):

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