JOHN BOECKLIN: Writing DevilDriver’s riffs, navigating band egos, forming Bad Wolves

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

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Speaker 2 (00:00:32):

And now your host. Eyal Levi. Alright, so welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. I am Eyal Levi, with me is one of my favorite people from this horrible, awful business. I've actually known him a lot longer than I'd care to admit because it makes me feel old as hell. Going on over 10 years since we shared one really nasty bus experience together and got to know each other pretty well. One of the best drummers in the game, one of the most talented musicians I've met in the game, doesn't really act like it, but he's known in production circles for being every band that he's in. And no offense to anybody else but just one talented motherfucker. So John Boecklin. Hello.

Speaker 3 (00:01:28):

Hello. That was one very awesome intro. I'm very humbled by that. Thank you very much Al.

Speaker 2 (00:01:35):

I was just telling you the truth. And I have a question about your last name before we go any further.

Speaker 4 (00:01:42):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:01:42):

You got the Worcester of last names because I've known you to be pronounced Boecklin, but you spell it B-O-E-C-K-L-I-N. How does that work?

Speaker 3 (00:01:58):

You threw D on the end of it. It's German. Did I? But it's not Boecklin. Yeah, you threw a D on there, Boecklin and yeah, it doesn't, not pronounced anyway, it's spelled, it's German and in Germany it's like there's no E, it's just B-O-C-K-L-Y-N in Germany with the two dots over the O. I forget what those are called, but so it's be Flynn. So my family came over here, I guess they got rid of the two dots and put in the E and then looked at, we could walk around the rest of our lives saying pick with that.

Speaker 2 (00:02:39):

Alright, thank you. I've been actually wondering this forever. Alright, so the reason that I invited you on here other than just to shoot the shit is because this podcast is generally production oriented and lots of times we talk about how you're going to be in the studio and pass the guitar around hopefully. And sometimes the guy that wrote the riff or sometimes the guy that plays guitar in the band is not going to be the guy that sounds best playing the riff. And sometimes it'll be the guy in the band that you least expect and you are that guy in the band that the guitar gets passed to a lot. You don't act like some big guitar guy or anything like that yet. It's just how things go is people pass you instruments. And I know once we were sound checking, loading into a club on tour together and I started hearing one of my songs coming through the pa, like someone picked up a guitar and started playing it and it sounded better than the other guitar player in my band. And obviously it sounded better than me. He was better than me. So I was like, who the hell is playing? And at the same time he was thinking the same thing. He heard the guitar coming through the PA and was like, God, that sounds better than a who the fuck's playing. And it was you, it was the drummer from some other band. So how did this happen? You always, do you play drums first or did you take other instruments just as seriously as drums or does this all just come naturally? What's the deal?

Speaker 3 (00:04:22):

I started playing guitar first and I played on acoustic guitar probably maybe three, two years before I started playing drums. And I never, the only thing I ever did on guitar, I never took one lesson. I never looked to really learn songs if I tried. I just tried about a year and then I found drums and the guitar really kind of got put down for a while and I got to college and I was in a shitty dorm room and I had guitar and then that's when I started playing. I think every day I would just master of puppets the album and learn it and then just play to it with rhythms. I'm pretty sure that's where any of my skills came from in terms of, but on acoustic guitar. And then when I transferred it to electric, I was, oh, I sound pretty. That's it pretty much.

Speaker 2 (00:05:09):

Is that where the strength comes from Because you've got a lot more strength in your hands than a lot of guitar players do, which I think is where you get a lot of your insane tone from is I noticed that you pick a lot harder than a lot of guitar players and you've got a lot stronger grip, which is interesting because you're not one of these guys that pulls everything out of tune. But it kind of makes sense to hear that you played on acoustic and when I was trying to get really good at guitar, sometimes I would warm up on acoustic and then start practicing on electric. The same thing as when you see a baseball player warming up with three bats instead of one sort of thing. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:05:55):

I just couldn't really warming up. Sure. But the way I learned guitar has its limits where because of the technique I learned and I didn't care to be a guitar player, so I never learned solos and stuff, but the way my technique is and how I learned is so rough and physical that when I try and play leads and thumbs, are you fucking kidding me? I can't even begin to grasp it. So it's limited but worked very well for what I wanted to do, if that makes sense. But it's not something I'd be like, you want to be the best, do what I did because you know what I mean? It's just, it's all rhythm playing and it works for me. But I do realize also some people just don't have the ability, and I've been going a lot through this with drumming is just realizing when you're doing something and it's not very good, some people are just like, yeah, sounds great. I'm doing it right. And they just don't, don't have the ability to look at what they're doing and go, that's not great. I should change my technique or work on changing my technique to get it to where it needs to be. I don't know. And I think that's kind of how I became, I've never called myself a guitar player, but if I was to, those are using the acoustic, playing the tempo style metal that I do and it's not many dream theater moments or so I don't know. You know what I mean? It's pretty,

Speaker 2 (00:07:16):

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's maybe not the most technical stuff on earth, but to sound awesome, playing anything takes skill. You can play anything mediocre, but to sound authentic and to have the right tone in your hands, that in and of itself is a skill.

Speaker 3 (00:07:38):

It is interesting what you're talking about too, about bending at tune. I know a lot of dudes that do that and I don't know why I don't do that. I do have a really hard grip and stuff, but I guess I'm just going back to what I'm saying. I'm conscious of working on that and I did. Now I don't have that problem.

Speaker 2 (00:07:52):

Well, you've got a really good ear. So I imagine that if you were to bend it out of tune, you would be able to actually hear it and then correct yourself. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:08:03):

I just don't have that problem anymore. I did when I was maybe at 18 or something. Yeah, if I did do it out, I'd be like, oh, let's do that again. That sounded like shit.

Speaker 2 (00:08:14):

So when you're solving problems in your technique, is it really that simple, just that sounds like shit, let's do it again? Or do you sit there and analyze what you're doing wrong and how to get better at it?

Speaker 3 (00:08:28):

No, there was only a couple things that I would try and change, but I can honestly say guitar playing came much more natural to me than drumming. So it's like for alternating fast death metal, picking the technique that my body chose to do first is completely the right way to do it and it's easy as fuck for me. Or the only thing that I struggle with that I can't quite get is really, really fast down picking. I still work on my technique with that, but I don't really care that much. So I don't sit there, I don't wake up in the morning just like can't do puppets today. Oh boy, just once in a while be like, yeah, I never really got that. It would be nice to be able to do down picking at two 10 kind of effortlessly the way I can do alternate picking death, metals, strumming and stuff. It's just effortless to me. That's the way, if it's hard to do it, that means you're doing it wrong. That's what I've always been taught. So no, I'm not the best at when I say I can analyze my playing and fix it, there are some things I still struggle with, but at least I know it's bad. I can't say when dudes don't know it's bad.

Speaker 2 (00:09:36):

Well, I mean I know you keep saying that you're not the best guitar player and I get that it's a whole other kind of world to be like a Jeff Loomis or Amal Worler or something.

Speaker 3 (00:09:48):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:09:49):

That's a whole other kind of thing, but

Speaker 3 (00:09:53):

I'm just not sure the listeners, I don't know your demographic or how in depth. So I always watch my words very quickly before I'm like, yeah, I'm real fucking good.

Speaker 2 (00:10:03):

Well, the thing is that we talk all the time about the difference between a really good musician that's good at showing off versus a musician that's really, really good at sounding good on songs and that when you're producing, you want to find the guy that's good at the songs and that that's a whole different kind of skillset. And that again, it's not necessarily going to be the guy that practices guitar the most, it's not necessarily going to be the guitarist. Sometimes it ends up being the bassist. Sometimes it's the drummer, sometimes the singer, sometimes it is the guitarist, but what you're looking for as a producer is the guy that sounds the most authentic with the songs. So I just think it's interesting that this has been happening to you for over 10 years now. I actually think I met you at Sonic Ranch in 2006 or something

Speaker 3 (00:10:59):

Or

Speaker 2 (00:10:59):

Five.

Speaker 3 (00:10:59):

I remember that you guys came through and we were, I think I just tracked clouds over California and then I walked out the door and you're like, what's up?

Speaker 2 (00:11:08):

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. I seem to remember from back then too, you were already being dominant with your guitar playing. So I just want to get inside your head because I think that it's a style of musician that doesn't get praise very often, but it's the exact guy you're trying to identify as a producer. Sometimes these guys that practice all day and try to be really good and you hear them play songs and it sounds okay, but it doesn't always have the crushing tone or the emotional connection or whatever it is. So

Speaker 3 (00:11:51):

Me not being a producer, I don't get to come across train wrecks and just things that aren't quite there as much as you do. So it's hard to me to be like, oh yeah, I totally know what you're talking about, but

Speaker 2 (00:12:03):

Okay, well how about this without sounding like a dick or without saying anything mean because that's totally not where I want to go. Is there ever situations where it was like, you play the riff? No, you play the riff and then somehow it's like, we're just going to give it to John.

Speaker 3 (00:12:20):

Yeah, that happened. But the point of saying that is because you asked, not because of like, listen, I'm here to make sure that everyone knows that when the guitar was passed around, sometimes it ended up me a lot.

(00:12:32):

That's not the point. But I would say most of it was because I wrote it. So it would just be like, well, and Devil Driver, which was the main, most of my guitar experience in the studio was if you wrote it, you play it. And then as things kept going on and on, I just wrote more and more. So it was kind of just natural like that, you know what I mean? But I did discover in 2005 doing the second record when Colin Richardson was like, well, let's try him. And then I watched everyone get excited and that was really kind of like, wow, they actually think I'm good at doing this rhythm stuff. And then I kind of took pride in it and had fun doing it and that's where it started. I guess it was fun to watch a renowned dude like Colin Richards and be like, yeah, your right hand is really, really fucking awesome. And I was like, wow, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (00:13:23):

And was it something where ever in the past, did it ever cause tension or is it something where everyone was just like, man, he sounds awesome, you do it?

Speaker 3 (00:13:37):

I'd say it was both, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:13:40):

I guess. And I'm wondering being on the side, on the musician's side, if you have any tips for producers on how they could best approach this in a diplomatic way?

Speaker 3 (00:13:52):

That all depends on the dynamic of the band. I think, I'm trying to think. It is a very good question. There's always going to be a little bit of tension when someone starts doing a lot of the work that that's not their instrument. Some dudes took it lighter than others or whatever, but it was never a boiling point or anything. And for some reason I actually think it caused more tension between the other guitar players than me with both of them, if that makes sense. Interesting. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Fucking, I don't really know how to put it, but you're talking about really there was some issues with it long time ago and then as we just grew up and it was kind of like, well, I wrote it, or if someone sounded the best doing something, do it. And then it became accepted that and we grew out of that little baby phase. Well wait a minute now I'm the guitar player so I should be doing it. I think within a week or two that kind of brushed over, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:15:01):

Well, normally in my experience, veteran bands don't have those issues anymore.

(00:15:09):

And by veteran, I mean past their first album. So not even really veteran. Basically non baby bands don't have those issues anymore. But a lot of our listeners, I mean some of them were huge records, but a whole lot of 'em are still at the point of just now starting to make a living at production or going to be making a living within the next year or still working with smaller bands. And smaller bands is where you see lots of these issues take place. Because I think that with veteran bands, once they've already gone through and seen the benefit of letting the guy that sounds best play the parts because it sounds better and you do better, a better sounding record is just a better record generally, not always, but generally they get in line and they're just generally happier to just make a record happen. Well, but I think when they're younger, they've still got shit to prove

Speaker 3 (00:16:11):

Who wants to sit there and struggle in the studio is my first advice to give. If you're struggling and someone else can do it, hand it over. You're paying for this time, you're paying and you're crossing frustration. I remember when I couldn't do parts, certain technique parts, I would call the other guy and say, Hey, do this now. I don't even think twice about it. It's just like the recording process. Just make it go as smooth as possible. So handing over something is get rid of your ego and just get it done. That's how I always viewed it. But as a producer, to give a producer advice of how to approach it, you got to look at the age you're dealing with the maturity level, but in general you should be like, I'm the fucking producer not using the word fuck, but this guy sounds the best. No one can come up with a different scenario of why we shouldn't use him then, and the band should learn on their own how to fight about it.

Speaker 2 (00:16:57):

So the time to fight about it is not in front of the producer basically.

Speaker 3 (00:17:02):

Absolutely not. Because the guy who's not the best is going to look the dumbest, the guy sticking up for himself who sucks. It's like you don't want to be that guy. And most people at that moment don't realize they are that guy. Hey, that little fist shove, I'm going to give him my best and I'm trying hard, so just give me my chance again. It's like everyone's rolling their eyes at you behind your back. So it's like, yeah, and you want to become professional. So it's like you should go into the studio hopefully with able to demo some stuff before you go in and know who's the best at what because you want to, when you leave a session, you don't want a producer pulling his hairs out, I can't stand these guys or whatever. And you want to look like you're a team that has everything figured out. And that's how I always want to present ourselves in front of producers that I was nervous to be around.

Speaker 2 (00:17:49):

Yeah, interestingly enough, I'm thinking about the things you were just saying in terms of me being around devil driver both on tour and in the studio, and I always got that vibe that whenever you guys had a problem, you would cut off the rest of the world and figure it out within your family unit and then present the solution to the world. And I've seen other bands that I look up to do that Black Dahlia murder would deal with problems like that too. And they're ultra professional. They would not ever air their issues in front of people that are not in the circle.

Speaker 3 (00:18:26):

I'm not saying I never did that, but

Speaker 2 (00:18:29):

Nobody's perfect.

Speaker 3 (00:18:30):

Nobody's perfect. But yeah, that's such a whole big can of worms just about how bands operate. That's such a broad discussion. Some people expose themselves completely like a lamb of God on their DVD, they show the fighting and stuff and that drew attention to them. Their honesty works for them. For me, I always thought the inner turmoil was embarrassing to expose. And so I just like to handle shit quietly and neatly. That's how, that's just kind of how I am as a person. Like God, when you see how it is or you see band members on tours, bickering at each other at a soundcheck in front of all the staff and you're just like, oh my God, pull it together boys.

Speaker 2 (00:19:16):

It's totally like a daddy hit mommy at the dinner table kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (00:19:21):

Well put. I don't have the wit you have right now, but yeah, this is fucking beautiful. I just think that stuff is embarrassing and I think it stems from Metallica and always believing that those guys were good at keeping their shit tight. And I always look because you never until they release that one movie. You know what I mean though? But I'm talking about when I was like 13. Totally. It's like they were always a force and you never knew if they did. Everyone knows that Lars did drugs now, but back in the day, everything about them was a mystery and their problem very much.

Speaker 2 (00:19:57):

Yeah, totally. I very much admire that style of working and I always appreciated bands from the studio end of it, who would operate like that? It's just a lot easier to deal with. Let's talk about your drumming. That's a whole other thing. We've been talking about guitar this whole time, but I mean people know you as a drummer,

Speaker 3 (00:20:18):

But you know what sucks is I like to tell anyone who's listening, I'm very unin informative when it comes to guitar playing. I don't even literally, I don't own a guitar right now. It's pretty sad. And that's kind of my level of interest in guitar. I have a little beat up acoustic thing I need to do writing for, but I can't give. I'm just not good at giving advice about it. But I do have a passion for it, so I apologize if I didn't come across as pro because I'm not.

Speaker 2 (00:20:45):

Okay. Before we move on to drums, let me just give you a quick rebuttal about what I think you explained on guitar.

Speaker 3 (00:20:53):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:20:54):

So you're not like a guitar player by trade, I think you're a musician by trade, and so you work with the tools in front of you to get the job done, whether it happens to be on guitar or drums or bass or writing or whatever, you're just a musician and a multi-instrumentalist. And so in my opinion, you've never really cared about guitar per se, other than having it be basically a conduit for riffs,

(00:21:26):

Which are parts of songs. And over the years, you've gotten so good at playing your own songs that you sound better at them than guys that are actual guitar players who care about guitar. And I think that the main thing that people should take away from that is that, like you said at the very beginning, you've always had a keen awareness for when something you're doing sounds fucked up, and then changing your physical approach to it, not making a big deal out of it, just this isn't easy. It should be easy, but it's not easy or it sounds out of tune or I'm struggling or whatever. Let's change it. Let's fix it.

Speaker 3 (00:22:07):

See, we should have had this conversation prior, should have wrote that down and just leaded the whole combo with that. That was beautiful.

Speaker 2 (00:22:14):

Well, no, thank you. But I like these podcasts are all improv because it's weird. We tried earlier on, we would try to pre-seed that kind of stuff and then sometimes it would just come off as robotic, like a news anchor kind of thing. It's better to get to those points naturally, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (00:22:36):

And one thing I left out too, which I just kind of clicked is like, yeah, when I was in the studio, sometimes I played my own riff better or something else better, but I also probably guarantee you I prepared harder than the other guys in terms of guitar. How

Speaker 2 (00:22:53):

So guitar?

Speaker 3 (00:22:53):

If I knew I was recording a song, I had play it a lot. So I cared about a job that I knew I had to do a lot. And I'm say they didn't care, but sometimes I probably even some producers have called me a bit of a workhorse sometimes I don't know when to quit or whatever. Sometimes I just keep going and I have a little bit of obsession compulsive thing about getting things, so I come in very prepared. So that might be another reason too. Work ethic is a motherfucker. It can get you just a little bit further than the guy who's a lot more talented than you.

Speaker 2 (00:23:26):

I've actually known a lot of people over the years who maybe aren't the most talented guy, but who just outwork everybody and their careers are better for it. And I also have known quite a few people who are just God level talented, whose careers aren't anywhere near what they should be because they're fucking lazy.

Speaker 3 (00:23:49):

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe natural talent comes with laziness. He didn't have to try that hard to get that good. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:23:58):

They're like the hot girl of musicians. No one's ever, no one's ever told them bad things.

Speaker 3 (00:24:05):

Yeah, I don't know. I dunno. I never had a problem working though, so even if it's a real shitty job, even when I was 14 working at McDonald's, I'd take it seriously. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:24:16):

Well, okay. So on the topic of preparing, how would you prepare? As you say you play a lot. Can you talk about that?

Speaker 3 (00:24:25):

Yeah, I would just go play guitar in my room. Like, okay. I'd go through each song and I would whip out the click track, but like a metronome, I don't even have a computer. And most of the times we were talking about, I didn't even have a computer, so I would just put out the old metronome and I would just play to it usually with acoustic guitar for a long time and just make sure that all the picking sounds right or whatever, and just go through it when it sounds good. And then normally you just strap on an electric and it sounds better than you'd imagined it would.

Speaker 2 (00:24:53):

Yeah. And you would just do that until

Speaker 3 (00:24:55):

I'd just do it until

Speaker 2 (00:24:57):

It's ready

Speaker 3 (00:24:57):

Not, I would never be like, oh, okay, I think I've got this. I would just practice it every day until it was time to record,

Speaker 2 (00:25:04):

And

Speaker 3 (00:25:05):

Then I would have that break. I would do drums first and then guitar second. So I don't know. I never played guitar during that break, and then I'd go back and I'd usually hit it pretty fresh. Yeah, perfect

Speaker 2 (00:25:14):

Time to start talking about drums. Do you approach drums the same way you approach guitar in terms of it's just a means to an end, it's a means to play your songs? Or do you take drums? I mean, I don't want to say that you don't take drums seriously or music seriously because you do, but do you consider yourself a drummer or is it the same sort of thing as with guitar?

Speaker 3 (00:25:40):

No, I definitely consider myself a drummer. If someone asks me, what do you play? I'm not one of those guys. Well, I'm a trumpet player guitar player. I usually say I'm a drummer. And then if you care to get into more details, oh yeah, then I'll say, oh, I also play this. But drums are, however, I am a lazy drummer when it comes to, especially in the beginning, I don't know much about drums. I have a hard time talking shop with dudes because I was more focused on being a drummer and a songwriter because I was writing a lot of the material for the Devil Driver band I was in, and it was also since the age of 23, it got bigger and bigger and bigger. So that was just all I cared about. I wasn't the guy, the drummer, who was left to his own devices to have the time to worry about just making himself a better drummer. I was more focused in on just writing songs. So I never got to be that nerd. I didn't really have the time to do that. That's a lie. But I could have found the time, but it just wasn't at the top of my list. The top of the list was,

Speaker 2 (00:26:48):

I was about to say, did you have that, the interest? Because lots of times the songwriter guys don't care to be the nerd guy.

Speaker 3 (00:26:55):

Yeah. But I liked to push my, I loved it when you get compliments on drumming, oh, the drums on that record are sick or whatever. That felt great to me. So I also wanted to, I had a drive to keep getting more and more extreme, but I think in general with the band I was in, that just meant faster. I dunno. So I definitely, towards the end of that band, I hit a huge creative rut where when I was left to my own devices as just a drummer for a bit, I went back and I took lessons and I did a lot of shit, and I learned a lot more shit that I should have learned when I was 23. And I do have regret. If I had known what I know now, then I would've been able to make Devil Driver a lot more original.

Speaker 2 (00:27:36):

It's still kicked ass.

Speaker 3 (00:27:37):

Yeah, no, I'm not knocking the band. But

Speaker 2 (00:27:41):

I mean, fair enough. If it's one of those things where, of course if we were better, then everything we would've done would've been better.

Speaker 4 (00:27:49):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:27:51):

I feel you on that. I guess if I was better looking, I'd be hotter.

Speaker 3 (00:27:57):

Yeah, no, but also the way Double Driver grew there was kind of a cuteness to it because we were learning how to get better as we went, and some of this stuff is so, especially on the first record naming the second, some of it's so simple and stupid that if I knew what I knew now, I could have never ridden that because I was like, oh my God, that's terrible. Who the fuck would, but there's an honesty and a simplicity to it that worked for us. So I guess I wouldn't change a thing, but damn, when I think about those songs now I'm like, I could have done this. I could have done that.

Speaker 2 (00:28:30):

You wouldn't change a thing, but if you had the chance, you would change the thing. Probably. Maybe. Probably.

Speaker 3 (00:28:37):

I guess, I don't know, I'm, it's going off the top of my mind right now about how I feel about that stuff. It's great, but sometimes I'm like, oh, it's terrible. Sometimes I'm like, it's awesome. Yeah, I don't know. Depend on the day.

Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

I understand the feeling. Well, I can tell you as a producer, so I've never produced your drums, but I've been closely involved in the recording of your drums and you're kind of like a producer's dream drum wise too. You want to get things done fast. Yeah, I

Speaker 4 (00:29:09):

Hate recording.

Speaker 2 (00:29:11):

Yeah, you want to get things done fast. You hit super hard, you come in super prepared and you don't want to leave until it's done and you take direction very, very well. But also, there's certain things that you won't do. You will not play Kick Pads, at least in my experience. You won't play Kick Pads and it's not an argument with you because you actually know how to play the kick drum parts. But that said, do you also put in that amount, the same type of preparation that you put in on guitar? Are you sitting there on drums like the other half of the day?

Speaker 3 (00:29:48):

Yeah, I put in more preparation on drums than I do guitar.

Speaker 2 (00:29:52):

So do you divide the day up or something?

Speaker 3 (00:29:55):

No. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:29:56):

Because you just made it sound like

Speaker 3 (00:29:58):

It was one thing all

Speaker 2 (00:29:58):

The time. You sit there all day on acoustic guitar getting ready for a record, but you left out the fact that your main instrument is drums and you're also getting ready for drums for a record.

Speaker 3 (00:30:08):

Yeah, you just do both in the day, however it comes to you.

Speaker 2 (00:30:13):

So kick drum, I'll do this first kick drum with the right foot while fretting the left hand,

Speaker 3 (00:30:19):

The guitar. Yeah, no, I mean you just go to the room and you play drums and I get back and I know I have to do guitar and go over that, but drums take up more and they're mentally more exhausting and without using Kick pads, I always thought this might go back to a little bit what we're saying about wanting to present yourself correct in front of people that you look up to or that will be talking about you. And if you're a band going into a studio, it's like first thing you don't want to do is like, all right, just so we're clear, let's get out the Kick pads because my fucking feet suck and I don't want to make your job. It's nice to come in and be like, no, I don't want to do that. I want to have it be an original sound if we can't get one. Sometimes it ends up getting sampled later on anyways, but just presenting yourself in kind of that mode will be like, all right, if you can really do it, do it. I remember there's always been you really want to do it. You sure? It's like, yeah, I do. Because it's like I know for a fact someone like you, like, oh yeah, yeah, he wasn't an editing nightmare or something. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:31:20):

Well, however, if I suggest you No, no, no, no. However is actually not about you. The however is yes, you're correct. My preference will always be if the drummer is like, I don't want to use kick pads, and then they actually walk the walk, that's the best of all worlds, but how often do they walk the walk? It's a bummer. More often than not, you want them to use the kick pads just because they're not as dedicated. Like you said earlier, work ethic's a bitch, and most guys don't have the work ethic, and so you want them to use the Kick Pads because they're not going to learn the kick parts as well as they should. And then it does become not just an editing nightmare, but a mixing nightmare. You got the kick all in the room mics and the overheads, and it's like, fuck.

Speaker 3 (00:32:19):

But also to listeners, anyone out there using kick pads doesn't mean you can't play double bass or you can't do it the right way. There's plenty of phenomenal drummers that just know that. I know Shannon uses pads in the studio. I was just in a session last,

Speaker 2 (00:32:36):

Shannon used his pads. Now

Speaker 3 (00:32:38):

I think he did with Mark Lewis was saying that he did, and I went into a session with what? With Shannon?

Speaker 2 (00:32:45):

I'm just going to say because, okay, because Mark and I worked on Battle Cross with Shannon and Shannon.

Speaker 3 (00:32:51):

Oh, notepads.

Speaker 2 (00:32:52):

Notepads, okay.

Speaker 3 (00:32:54):

Maybe I'm remembering what Mark said.

Speaker 2 (00:32:56):

He wouldn't even considerate, but I don't know if that's changed since then. That was 2013.

Speaker 3 (00:33:04):

No, then you're totally right because maybe I was thinking of someone else

Speaker 2 (00:33:08):

Else. Maybe you're thinking of dude from White Chapel, Ben from White Chapel, because Ben from White Chapel uses pads and he's phenomenal.

Speaker 3 (00:33:19):

Okay. Yeah, I guess I didn't know. See, I thought Ben used real drums. That's funny. But yes, Ben is a phenomenal drummer. And it depends on the drummer too. It's like, did anyone care that Zen was programmed drums? No. No,

Speaker 5 (00:33:31):

Because

Speaker 3 (00:33:32):

Everyone knows he can do it, but then when Fear Factory did it with that record, the industrialists, it's like, I dunno, you're just doing to save money, but I can't get on the forums and care too much. But it's funny how some people think one bank could do it and it's disgrace and another one does and it's totally fine, but definitely because people know Thomas can fucking do it, and there's no question there, so

Speaker 2 (00:33:57):

That's good. Know who brought the Kick pads into our lives, the person who pushed for them back in 2009 or 10, and where I was like, I don't know. It was fucking Kevin Talley

Speaker 4 (00:34:11):

Dally. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:34:14):

Because he was starting to do his own recordings.

Speaker 3 (00:34:17):

I do. I remember him saying that all the time. Every day.

Speaker 2 (00:34:20):

Yeah, five times a day. Yeah. He discovered that if he could use Kick Pads, it was even easier to record. And so then he tried to use Kick Pads on a doth record, and I was the one who was not into it, but then he convinced me, and I think he convinced all of us, and I mean not like he couldn't play.

Speaker 3 (00:34:50):

It's very true. Yeah. I was just in on, see, I don't know if saying this stuff is wrong or not, but I don't think anyone really fucking cares. But I was just in Lamb of God's latest session with Josh Wilbur, and I was surprised to know that they were using pads as well, and they were in the B room at Energy. You're given that kind of God, the records have been cut in that room, and it's like at the end of the day, sometimes in metal, they're just like, dude, we're just not going to use the sound that we get in here for fast syncopated shit. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:35:27):

And you're causing yourself problems. If there's any problem with the kick performance whatsoever or other reasons, and you have it in the room mics and the overheads, you're causing yourself problems later. So yeah, it definitely doesn't mean you're a bad drummer at all, but still that said, you coming in, you had pride about your drums and you wanted to play them all and get it right, but get it right quickly and not fuck around.

Speaker 3 (00:35:58):

Yeah. I always had a man, maybe you could even call it a fear, but I just never wanted to have a bad reputation as a shitty drummer that was always at the core of me. And when you start going and doing records with Colin Richardson is like, you just know those people are going to, they're going to thumbs up and thumbs down you behind your back. Oh, how was that guy, blah, blah. I always wanted to give it my best and be as prepared as possible for that reason. Who knows? Then if you do well, there's been times you get calls and get, that's when you know, oh, that's awesome because the mother,

Speaker 2 (00:36:36):

Well, I mean those types of recommendations from people like that go a really long way too, as opposed to, I remember once Colin told me that he considered this one drummer, he recorded raw material. I forgot what the context, it was just about how much editing they had to do. He was like, well, he's definitely raw material. It's like, wow, I guess that means never call this guy again.

Speaker 3 (00:37:08):

See? Yeah. So it's like when you're in the studio, like I said, I'm not quite sure what kind of listeners are here, but if it's geared towards giving people advice about recording, it's like if you're a musician, go in holding your head high with the most prepared you can be because you never know where it can lead to you with suggestion from somebody else.

Speaker 2 (00:37:27):

And what kind of, so you have worked with a bunch of different producers. What type of approach do you think works best with you? Do you prefer a drill sergeant or you just want someone that's like a bro or super intense or a little more hands off? If you were to tell me about your ideal production experience, what are you looking for in a producer or an engineer?

Speaker 3 (00:37:56):

Well, first and foremost, their track record. What have they done? Do I want to be working with this person in the first place, which we've had the pleasure I have of picking the producers that the band collectively wanted and agreed upon. So wherever we stepped into, we wanted to be with the people that were there, and then I didn't know them usually, but I work perfectly with someone who I don't have much of a relationship with and who maybe we don't have the same sense of humor or not. And because if they just want to work and get it done, that's great With me. I can work 14 hours a day, but it's also nice to have a friend involved. I know you and I have, we would pass Mark Lewis's stuff and you would help edit and I don't know, we would fucking laugh. That's all we did.

Speaker 2 (00:38:57):

It was like that on tour too,

Speaker 3 (00:39:00):

And that makes things easy. At the end of the day, if they're doing their job, I'm a very forgiving person in terms of personalities or if people don't do things that I don't like, I just don't really care. I'm just like, Hey, fuck sounds great. Let's just keep working. The only thing that can bug me sometimes is if things don't roll on time, because when you have a manager breathing, when you're approaching that last week and you're not where you're supposed to be, and if it's falling on one person's shoulders, particularly, that's never really quite happened to us. It's came a little close sometimes, but then you start feeling that pressure of now you're not going to make as much money as we thought you were because this budget's going, you're taking too long. So just as long as no one's slacking off, which I've never come into play, I've never had a producer who just drinks too much or just wants to hang out half as much as, I dunno, you're paying all these people a lot of money. So I've never really had to do a record with a total unprofessional person. So I guess I'm a little blessed in that area.

Speaker 2 (00:40:05):

I hope that at the point that people were getting your budgets, that it weeded out the dudes who just wanted to hang out all day.

Speaker 3 (00:40:14):

I get, but there's got to be producers out there with drug problems and drink too much and stuff. But I've just, fortunately, I've never done a record with someone like that. It's like, yeah. So it's just like, where's fucking Bob? It's fucking seven o'clock at night. He's still not here. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:40:35):

Yeah, I've definitely heard of guys like that. So I want to ask you a few questions about Life after Devil Driver, but I don't want to ask you things that you've been asked a million times or whatever.

Speaker 3 (00:40:51):

I really haven't really done a lot of interviews.

Speaker 2 (00:40:53):

Okay, good.

Speaker 3 (00:40:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:40:55):

Well, I mean, first of all, I just want to congratulate you on the new band Bad Wolves and how awesome it is. And it's like a collection of buddies of mine from different time periods in my life too, playing in the band. So it's kind of cool seeing all of you guys do this, and it's also cool seeing for people that don't know, so it's got Doc Coyle and Tommy Vex in it as well, who are just guys that had been in the game for a while. I don't know the other guys in the band, but

Speaker 3 (00:41:32):

Chris Cain is the other guitar player and Kyle Keel is the bass player,

Speaker 2 (00:41:36):

And I love them both, even though I don't know, but it just sometimes when you get super groups, I don't want to call it that, it's not the right word, but when you get these bands that are after the band that the person is known for, you're known for devil driver doc's known for God forbid, sometimes when the ex dudes from certain bands get together, it kind of sucks. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:42:08):

Well, let's start off with calling the band Super group. In my opinion, a super group is usually combined when I'm going to call someone a super group that's combined with platinum plus selling artists. That's what I said, maybe not the right approach. No, it's not. I think a couple websites picked it up as a super group and I just sit there and I roll my eyes. You're begging the trolls to come hit this hard right now because it's not that a supergroup the word super. It connected with some sort of status.

Speaker 2 (00:42:45):

Well, more than anything, I just want people to understand that it's not you. It's not John and the Lins. It's like you and some dudes who have done stuff

Speaker 3 (00:42:57):

I know, but usually it's doomed from the start,

Speaker 2 (00:42:59):

Right? Yes. Usually those are the worst bands. Usually it's like you go see your friend and his new band and it's like, oh no, I need to leave because he's going to ask me what I thought

Speaker 3 (00:43:12):

Straight up. I guess I'll segue into this. I thought about that all the time. I was like, okay, what's the number one thing I can't do? Normally these guys end up just doing something that sounds derivative of what they've already done, but worse.

Speaker 5 (00:43:28):

Yeah, that's rough too.

Speaker 3 (00:43:33):

It is real rough. It's a rough room music business, especially given our ages. We're not like these 20. We weren't like, yeah, I was in sleeping sirens for 10 minutes and now I'm trying this out. It's like we all had pretty long established careers and long bands for a while, so we're a bit older, but I thought about it more than your average Joe, kind of like my work ethic, but with my mind just like,

Speaker 2 (00:43:55):

Okay, your mind was working overtime on it.

Speaker 3 (00:44:00):

Yeah, just like I've got to make sure that I don't just release one of those fucking bands that's just like God. However, you can totally think that my new game sucks, but at least I know you're not going to be like, dude sounds like a God forbidden devil driver put together. It's like it's really got its own thing. And from, I know you've heard,

Speaker 2 (00:44:23):

Honestly, dude, I was worried. I figured at some point I'm going to have to talk to you and talk about it, and maybe Tommy, I haven't talked to him in a while, but at some point it's going to come up and these guys all got together, so it's going to all these guys that I think are really good, but that just means it's going to suck. And I'm so sad, so sad for my friends, but I heard it and it was badass, so it was on my end. It was just pure relief.

Speaker 3 (00:44:56):

Yeah, I know what you mean. Also, if someone's listening, it's like, well, this guy just thinks his new band's the shit. And I understand I was the first to throw myself under the bus, the first song Learn to Live, which people have only heard. I'm very well aware that it's a one-two punch on modern metal. It's got that gent vibe and stuff, but I'm also saying that the rest, there's not one song that sounds like that song on the rest of the record. So it's like we kind of delivered kind of the meat and potatoes f to not throw people off too much. But I think it was a good move to kind of get our original, any members fan base at what they have left of a fan base to keep them interested. Like, okay, it's not some shocking left or right, but there's a lot of ups and downs, this record, and going back to thinking over time about not repeating yourself, I just made sure that not only does this material not sound like anything else we've done that the record from front to back is not, it's not a hate breed through and through.

(00:46:08):

It's not a devil driver through and through. It's definitely you're going to be like, this is the same band. Whoa. So those are the two goals. Now, whether that will work, that's yet to be told some people, we might lose some of our fan base from stretching out different boundaries, but gain other ones there. We'll see if our formula works or not. That's yet to be seen

Speaker 2 (00:46:30):

Yet to be seen, but at least so far so good. And the reaction I've seen has been super positive. I thought that the new song was awesome, and I wouldn't have you on to talk about stuff like this if I didn't. I would've just not even if I had you on, I would've cut it off at talking about guitar or something.

Speaker 3 (00:46:56):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:46:57):

No,

Speaker 3 (00:46:58):

I think it's good. And in people who know me real well know I am a whole poker, I'm always waiting for something to fail, and so that always, when I listen to interviews that I do, it kind of comes across that a little bit like, well, we'll see how it goes. And we tried real hard. I'm not a salesman like a fucking car, cheap car salesman. Do you see this puppy? It's just fucking cheesy. I can find problems in every piece of material I've ever written and done, and I think that's an honesty that some people don't have that you should.

Speaker 2 (00:47:29):

I completely agree. That's one of the reasons I don't have musicians on this podcast very often is full of shit. For the most part.

Speaker 3 (00:47:39):

When I wrote that, I just knew No, just starting with that line. I just channeled channeled those risks, bro.

Speaker 2 (00:47:49):

Yeah, exactly. I mean, first of all, it's fucking boring and second is bullshit and nobody cares. But I think that there's also something to be said for just the fact that you've still got a lot of musical expression left in you. I don't know. I mean, am I mistaken that you wrote a lot of that stuff and played a lot of that stuff too?

Speaker 3 (00:48:14):

No, you're definitely mistaken there. I wrote a little bit here and there, but it was me and this Max Karen who wrote the entire record together, and I noticed his talents as a guitar tech and I was like, wow. And then when I figured out I was leaving Devil Driver, I got into a room with him and we kind of channeled, yeah, not channeled, but

Speaker 2 (00:48:40):

You just kind knew it was the one.

Speaker 3 (00:48:42):

Well, no, it took us a long time to get to where the album ended up, but just we had a natural connection in terms of writing. It was fun together, but also we'd pull each other's hairs out, but then at the end of the day, we're still friends. It wasn't like, I fucking hate this dude. So it was good. It took a year and a half of writing to finally started getting to where the songs we were like, yeah, I think this is it. And he is fucking phenomenal rhythm player. So this was the first time ever where I was like, I remember, I think I said this before in some other interview, but when I first started, I came in writing all the songs. So I came in with these songs written and I just watch him play and I'd be like, fuck it, you play it. There was no contest. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:49:27):

Well, hey, I just think that that's interesting that even you know how a lot of guys, if they had been in your shoes for all those years where the guitar gets passed to you and now they're onto some other project that hasn't proven itself yet, they would've been like, well, in my last band I play the riffs, so who's got the sales here buddy?

Speaker 3 (00:49:51):

I fucking can't stand on that shit around. But yeah, it's like, dude, assholes sold some records, man, fucking let me try. But the fucking, that goes back to what I said earlier. It's like, if you're not the best guy in the room, just give it up. What's the problem? This makes the process easy. But if I was on a scale of one to 10, if you think I'm a good rhythm player, it's like I'm like a four. He's a 10. So it was beyond no con and plus he would take Learn to Live the first song I wrote, that whole song, but he maxed it, you know what I mean? He made things just a bit more complex and that verse, I can't do it now, but I could play the demo I had of me playing it. And then you can hear the record with him doing it, it's night and day that how much he's like, he's a younger, he understands rhythm much more than I do in terms of being that tight. And instead of just sitting there beating myself over, I was like, yeah, fucking you do it, man. Sounds fucking amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:50:54):

He's got, I guess that touch that younger generation touch with those types of gen rhythms that they just get,

Speaker 4 (00:51:03):

It's more their real, they grew up, I don't know about you, but shit, not fucking grow up playing that.

Speaker 2 (00:51:12):

No, I definitely did grow up playing that stuff. I grew up playing riffs, not patterns.

Speaker 3 (00:51:19):

Me too. So it just seems like you said you grew up playing riffs, so did I?

Speaker 2 (00:51:25):

Yes. Rifs not patterns.

Speaker 3 (00:51:28):

It seems like s Yeah, riffs not patterns. It seems like Shuga just, especially with Absen, just kind had this rebirth connecting to the fuck, the band became 10 times bigger after than it ever was. And it seems like the youth really connect, especially with periphery coming up. And then I think a youth just really recognized Shuga, even though they've been around for 20 years before that, I think defined kind of a generation of rider and Max is in that wheelhouse where like, oh yeah, these patterns, they're nothing to me. No problem.

Speaker 2 (00:52:02):

I can definitely tell you that there's a divide among players, and I've seen it in the studio. There are some guys who just get those types of patterns. It's in their DNA, and it's like it's just in how they play. It's not a big deal. And there's some guys to where that kind of stuff is just, it would be like me trying to play funk or something, it just wouldn't work. Me playing funk is a disaster and there's just a certain breed of metal player who maybe it's not that bad, but these types of patterns are just not in their DNA and they just don't have it for whatever reason. So I have some questions from our audience for you. We had some stoked people that you were coming on, so I'd like to ask you them if you don't mind.

Speaker 4 (00:53:00):

I love it.

Speaker 2 (00:53:01):

Alright, so this one is from Luis Jaime Flores, and he's saying, hello John. When I try to write a song, I always struggle with the transitions between riffs. What advice do you have to get better at this?

Speaker 3 (00:53:18):

I know exactly what he's talking about. I think you as a guitar player, everyone sit there. How the fuck am I going to connect these? Well, I think in the terms of, okay, I just think in terms of up and down, am I going to climb in the next part or am I going to descend in the next part? And then if that doesn't really work, then I think about some sort of jarring move that I could do, which a good example of that, which I always think about is I heard that Pantera always struggled getting into the chorus of I'm Broken You. And then in the end it was Rex's idea. What about it? It's just a stupid, weird idea that finally connects the dots. It's like if the ups and downs for me don't work in terms of rhythmically and they come, sometimes you find yourself going to cheesy, like 0, 5, 3, 6, move to get somewhere. It's just stupid. Then I try to go for the jarring thing, but I dunno, that's off the top of my head. Those are the first things that come to mind.

Speaker 2 (00:54:29):

It sounds like you actually have a set of, I guess things that you'll try right away. If you can't think of a transition, how do you take the intensity out or take the intensity down?

Speaker 3 (00:54:43):

Exactly. An up and down. It's

Speaker 2 (00:54:44):

Like,

Speaker 3 (00:54:45):

Okay, if you have two risks, you're trying to connect, where's one, where's the other? Would it make sense to try and go up to the one or down? It's just like that common sense, how would I connect these? And then as I got older, I realized that sometimes it's like you're making the same choices over and over and sometimes it's a little too predictable and sometimes smooth is not fucking aggressively, strangely, getting into the next part and everyone go, damn.

Speaker 2 (00:55:12):

Yes. Alright, so here's one from Bay Georgian, which is a John. While I know creativity is different for everyone, I feel like some of the best songs are written from a combination of both great creativity as well as specific process that some musicians have found for themselves and gotten down to a close science. Do you have a process and if so, what's it like?

Speaker 3 (00:55:39):

I would disagree with his statement.

Speaker 5 (00:55:41):

Me

Speaker 2 (00:55:41):

Too.

Speaker 3 (00:55:42):

That there's some, the best in the world. Have it down to a science. No, I don't think you're just good or you're not and you get lucky or you don't. And my process is usually starts with watching TV on guitar and I'm playing something, not paying attention, something catches my ear, I go, oh, that's kind of cool. And then I kind of focus and I turn the TV off and I start from there. And then if I get something, alright, I'll work. I only work. I took Billy Joel's advice, which I always thought was very strong. I only work on stuff like five to six to 10 minutes at a time. I don't sit there and work on something for three hours straight. I just go, okay, cool. Where would I naturally grow here? But if I don't come up with something, I put it down, I go, go fuck off. But I remember what I started, so then I'll to it, and then usually it just ends up working. It's a little bit longer than other ones, but there is no science where you go, okay, I got the recipe, let's do it again.

(00:56:42):

Let's just make millions. And it's that easy. So I did notice and some of the stuff, I think I worked the hardest on it ends up being everyone's least favorite and whatever, but Clouds Over California was one the devil driver's biggest songs. And that was nothing about, that had any science and never was repeated again. It was a rift that Mike had that was super slow. I suggested we speed it up and then from there it took shape and Mike had the Harmon part, and then I wrote the intro and it was just like we all did it all within one day and it was very easy and fun. And then still, then Dez did a great job on top of that. So if that was a recipe, I wouldn't know how to recreate it. You just can't. You get lucky and sometimes you don't.

Speaker 2 (00:57:32):

Absolutely. So here's one from Jack Hartley, which is how far do you get with a song or idea before you bring other people in on the creative process? And what are some of the challenges of being such an independent creative force in a full band situation?

Speaker 3 (00:57:54):

Well, yeah, it depends on what situation I'm in, in Devil Driver in the end. And most of the time I would bring fully presented full songs. I'd write them all myself and come down. And then sometimes what you thought was going to work and you make changes on the spot. But for the most part, I work stuff a lot on my own and bring it to the table as completed and it usually stays that way. However, change to now, I stopped doing that approach as working with Max and Bad Wolves. I find that the goal that we're trying to do, we don't have a brand that we know and we are following up with. So I kind of just leave things more open and we kind of flow. It's a little bit more painful working together, trying to make that stuff happen, but I'm leaving it more open. I'm in no need or want to control a musical situation, so I just kind of go in and hey, I throw out ideas like let's write a song like this Faith No More song right there and we just start like that. You know what I mean? Let's just kind of pick up on a vibe and mood you're in. And that worked really well for us on this first record.

Speaker 2 (00:59:10):

Alright. Charles is wondering, do you find you need to get in a creative mindset for a specific instrument to complete a song idea? Or do you have a cascade of ideas that lead into one another as you work on a song? Do I need to get into drum mode or guitar mode or is it all just like I'm working on this and now I'm working on this and now I'm working on this?

Speaker 3 (00:59:32):

Well, everything I do on guitar, that is much more of a loosely thing. Drums, yeah, I got to get in drum mode mainly for simple reasons. I need to drive there to go do it. I need to devote my team into a small room and it's physical, so I have to be in the mood to be up and out. And so then I need to create a routine that's like that working out. It's like once I get in that mode, I don't stop, but with writing guitar, I write all the guitar first and then maybe we'll do program drums or something and then go back and then I fine tune all the drums. So that's my mode. I'm like, all right, this is drum mode of writing. And when I'm in drum mode, that goes hand in hand of being creative and focused. So when I come home, I do the guitar stuff in terms of working on what I need to and in terms of if I'm going to be recording guitar practice what I need to. But creatively writing guitar is much more loose, like I said, ride in the house, writing tv, but in general the same situation that usually we're going to have to be alone. I don't enjoy writing when there's anybody else in the room.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):

I feel you on that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):

Okay, dude, I'm going to fuck this name up. Griz fuck. Alright, I'm just going to ask the question and I'm sorry dude who asked that your name is just not within my capabilities and it's just not so, Hey John, love drums and sick arrangements on Devil Driver. How do you approach to achieve that arrangement? Do you have overall vision of the song and write it from start to finish or do you collect different ideas and then glue them into the song?

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):

It's hard to know if he's just talking about the V Devil driver or self-titled album Devil Driver. But in general, I think he's just talking in general. So I'll shoot for that. No, everything the basic, you got the tempo of a song. So then you basically know if you're going to be living where your snares living on the one and the three or the two or once those kinds of decisions are made, the basic format's there. And then I get into a room and then usually everything is coming off of improv and the more I play to the song and get into it with headphones and I'm playing to guitars and I get excited and then that's when you'll do some sort of pull something out of your ass and okay, cool, so that's the mode I need to get into, get the special fills going and that's about it. And then also that magic happens also when you're actually recording too, when you just go for shit. But when I say go for shit, this isn't like it's metal kind of 1 0 1. It's not like, alright, I'm going to go off and do a five pattern like a jazz, just see the bend follows. It's not crazy and improv, it's just kind of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):

So Chad, bill Anderson saying, when you were in Devil Driver, did you ever find yourself wishing you were playing guitar or bass instead of drums?

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):

I don't think wishing is the right word, but there was times where I just like, man, I could really play guitar in this band. And I just never enjoyed when the drums fuck up. Everything fucks up guitar players could fuck up all. And so maybe it was a little bit of jealousy issue with that. And yeah, sometimes the pressure of being a drummer is a little high, that's all. But I don't think I sat around and wished bass player though. That's a fun gig.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):

I mean, yeah, it definitely does seem like a fun gig

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):

And fun, but I mean sometimes not that challenging and also you can really be miss a lot of notes and whatever and you're still riding through the show looking good.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):

Yes. So Charlie Monroe is wondering, I recall an interview where you said you thought pray for villains was over edited or something along those lines. If this is the case, I was wondering what constitutes over editing to you and when would you call it a bad thing in this genre?

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):

I don't think I use the word over edited. I think I just used the word over polished. I think that record too. I think there are some parts that were definitely quantized too, a little bit too much where it just feels stiff. I'm trying to think of an example on that. I think there's a song called Pure Sincerity where it's very fast double bass and yeah, it sounds great, but to me I was like, I know I didn't play it that perfect where it just sounds kind of like a typewriter machine just going, you know what I mean?

(01:04:52):

And we would have problems. We still play that. We still play that song and we played that song and it sounded fine live too. It's just, I think we got a little, if it's not fucking perfect man, then fix it kind of mode. And trying to compete with the kind of computer game video fucking metal records that were coming out around that time where I think now feel is coming back a lot more and not being overproduced, but I think around that time we were just being competitive with what was around us too. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):

Yeah, totally. So here's one from Max Morden, which was being a drummer. And how do you approach hearing protection?

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):

How do I approach it?

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):

I protect my ear. You put stuff in your ears.

Speaker 4 (01:05:47):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):

Well, I mean, do you have any custom earplugs or in ears or do you always wear hearing protection or one of those guys that's like, nah, it'll grow back.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):

No, I think I stopped around shit, I can't really remember when I was like, this needs to change because my monitors were so loud and I didn't wear, so I just went to in-ears and I can't even remember the company I started with and I would break and step on. They're expensive as fuck, and I would break and step on. So then I really don't, I'm not picky. I use, I use my own, the only thing I have in my ears is my own kick and a click track. So that's all I need it for. So I get whatever I get my hands on, I'll go to Guitar Center, pick up some 200 ones until they run out. And then usually the water from the sweat ends like a sear one out and then I'll go get another one.

Speaker 5 (01:06:51):

All right.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):

And so my in-ears are my hearing protection as long as I don't play too loud.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):

Makes sense. John, I was wondering, when you hit your creative flow state, how do you go about harnessing your ideas? Is it a gut feeling you go off of or the reactions and input of your band that keep the flow inspiring? And how does your creative flow state feel to you?

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):

It definitely a gut feeling. It's not based off my band members. And the same for them, don't have the feeling that they do. So they'll show you something that's very rare where you're like, are you fucking kidding me? That's basically the best riff I've ever heard. So if you're looking for that guy, if you're looking for that sort of, Hey, check this side. If you're looking for, God, why am I fucking fla on the word acceptance, then you might get discouraged. So just get you as good as you can

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):

If you're looking for that kind of hand job.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):

Yeah, exactly know, but I don't know, that's how it works in Dell. Driver was like, cool, let's check it out. Mike was always the guy recording our stuff and he was never with anything. It'd take him a lot of times to put things sent in before he is like, dude, you know what? That's really good. So I was never looking like, anybody want to soak my dick right now? I think this is awesome. But yeah, I always went with my gut feeling myself. And like I was saying before, when I got onto an idea, I would know on my gut, oh, this is worth exploring. And I would mentally get in a mode where it's like, okay, for the next couple days, that's what I'm working on. I'm going to make it the best I can.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):

Alright. And I'm just seeing, he wrote some more stuff, but I feel like we already covered it. So Giovanni Angels wondering what kind of coffee do you drink to stay so productive?

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):

I do not drink coffee,

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):

That's the answer.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):

Yeah, sometimes I get in and out of teas, but not too much. I can't drink coffee. I get way too coffee to me is, there's no difference between doing that. And cocaine get super amped up and I can't be myself. I feel like I'm high, so I can't really do it too much.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):

Fair enough. All right. I think, well that concludes the questions I'm going to ask because everything else we already covered. I, dude, thank you for coming on and talking to us and nice talking to you again. And congrats with the new band for real. It actually is really awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):

Yeah, thank you very much. It was great to talk to you too. My pleasure. Fucking be on here and hope spread the word in the new band too. And thanks for making, I know that isn't the point of this podcast, so it was nice to get a little bit of words on that. That was great, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):

Well, we'll definitely, I mean, it's a production podcast, but still, if they want to hear a cool mix, they should go listen to the Single By Bad Wolves. And we're going to actually embed the music video in the show notes for this episode. Okay. So anyone who wants to hear what it is that we've even been talking about with John's new band, just go to the page for this episode and you can check it out.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):

And it was production that was mixed and recorded by Mark Lewis, so everyone can know that. There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):

There you go. Great.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):

Alrighty. Alright, well thank you for having me on and I dunno if this says goodbye first, so let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):

Alright,

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):

Goodbye

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):

First. Alright man, let take it easy. Thank you. The Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by two notes. Audio Engineering two notes is a leader in the market for load box, cabinet and mic simulators. Gunner, the days of having iso rooms or having to record an amp at ear bleeding volumes to capture that magic tone, the Torpedo Live reload and studio allow you to crank your amp up as loud as you want, but record silently. Check out www.two-notes.com for more info. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit nail the mix.com/podcast and subscribe today.