JACOB HANSEN: Pop Vocals in Metal, XY Drum Overheads, Mixing Huge Orchestras

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Focus, right supplying hardware and software products used by professional and amateur musicians, which enables the high quality production of music Focus. Right? Sound is everything. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis. Joel Wanasek and Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:00:22):

Levi. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and with me is special guest, Mr. Jacob Hansen. I'm sure you guys know who he is, but if you don't should know, he's worked with bands like Volbeat, Camelot Epica, boarded Doro, tear Amaranth, many, many others plays guitar for power metal band pyramids, and he owns Hansen Studios in Denmark. I love his stuff and I implore you to check it out. Welcome, Jacob. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 3 (00:00:58):

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (00:00:59):

Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time. I've been a fan of your productions for a little while now. I've always been particularly interested in your vocal sounds because they're so polished. You do a really, really good job of getting things to sound so heavy, but then you hear the vocals and the vocals sound like straight up pop productions.

Speaker 3 (00:01:26):

Yeah, thank you. I think that's actually what I'm aiming for anyway, so I guess that that's a good thing.

Speaker 2 (00:01:34):

Yeah, I would say so. I have a question. Pyramids, do you guys have a, I'm wondering if this is the same band I'm thinking of. Do you have a keyboard player named Jonah?

Speaker 3 (00:01:47):

Yeah, we do. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:01:48):

I know Jonah from a long time ago.

Speaker 3 (00:01:51):

From

Speaker 2 (00:01:52):

Cool, from one of his old bands. Blood Promise.

Speaker 3 (00:01:57):

Yeah. Alright.

Speaker 2 (00:01:57):

From 10 years ago more. They recorded in my basement of my old studio like three studios ago when they were trying to get signed. So I

Speaker 3 (00:02:11):

Remember. That's cool. It's a small world. There you go.

Speaker 2 (00:02:13):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:02:14):

Pretty cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:02:15):

Have you been in the band from the beginning?

Speaker 3 (00:02:18):

No, I haven't, but the guys who started it are friends of mine and they're obviously from Denmark, and I think they were looking for a keyboard player, and I have really no idea how they got ahold of Jonah, but that just ended like that. And he came to my studio when I first started back. That must also be maybe in 2002 or three or something like that. I can't really remember, but way back I feel it is. And I just started and yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:02:54):

I'm talking This was a long time ago.

Speaker 3 (00:02:57):

Yeah, really? Yeah, and he was a small kid and he came to my studio and recorded the keyboard parts for the first Pyramids album, and I was a producer on all the albums, so that's why when they lost their main guitarist, the main songwriter, they asked me to help them out.

Speaker 2 (00:03:15):

And how do you guys keep a band together for so long? That's actually kind of incredible.

Speaker 3 (00:03:22):

Yeah. Actually, yeah, there was some kind of a break. I mean, when the main guy, he left the band and I don't really know when, but yeah. Anyway, there was a long break of maybe four or five years where they didn't do anything. And I think Jonah, he started it again, somehow got the guys back together except for that, except for the bass player and the main guitarist. And that was when they asked me to help them out. And then it took a couple of years before we really got things started and everything got going. So yeah, I think they had a break of, I think it took maybe five or six years from the last album release to the first one where I was on it, which is called Disciples of the Sun.

Speaker 2 (00:04:23):

So I guess if you count the break, the band hasn't been together that long, actually, whenever I've had long distance relationships with girls, I've always said that if we were together for a year, but maybe got together eight times for Yeah, I know what you mean. A week at a time. Yeah, it's actually, it's really, we've only been together eight weeks with a lot of breaks in the middle.

Speaker 3 (00:04:50):

Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. But yeah, and this is maybe like that actually. Yeah. But maybe that's also why, I mean, we don't really get tired of each other because we hardly ever see each other. And when we do see each other, it's like, it's fantastic. It's a great get together.

Speaker 2 (00:05:14):

That sounds like the perfect situation

Speaker 3 (00:05:16):

Actually. It is. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:05:18):

The thing I hated about being in a band was being around the band. I mean, touring was cool sometimes, but after about five days I'd get over it and I hated everybody and was ready to get back home or go back to

Speaker 3 (00:05:34):

The studio. Exactly. That's how I feel as well. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:05:39):

So you definitely prefer the studio?

Speaker 3 (00:05:41):

I do. And I can leave and my studio is located where I live now, so I can just, whenever I can't just leave in the middle of everything, but I can get some time off from the people in the studio from bands. And not that I hate people, but you know how it suddenly, sometimes things gets to you and you need a break. And that's hard in a tour bus, I think. And that's why I've only been touring twice with my old band.

Speaker 2 (00:06:24):

One thing, I was just talking about this with some producers that we think that almost every single producer ever gets called lazy behind their back, but actually it's not that they're lazy, it's that being around bands for too long sucks the life right out of you. It is very intense for some reason. So it, it's not that you're lazy or don't want to be around them, it's more that you just need to get away from them so that you can recharge your soul,

Speaker 3 (00:06:59):

I think. Yeah, I think you're right. Plus that, I mean, it maybe comes out a little harsh, but it's not people that you choose to be together with. It's people that you quote has to work with.

(00:07:13):

So maybe they're not your type of people, really, some of them. And that can be a challenge, even though I think that it's sometimes also great fun to learn new people, get to know new people and work with people where your best psychology skills comes up, or the lack of them. I don't know. I think it takes a lot of work to be together with the same people for a long period of time. And yeah, it's good that you do work with parts of the band all the time. I mean, one day you maybe work, or a couple of days you work with the singer and then the bass player and then the guitarist, and so it's not all of them all at once. That's too much.

Speaker 2 (00:08:11):

So when you're producing an album, do you do things in a specific order or do you set up so that you can work on whatever you want at any time? I'm just wondering. I know that myself and my partner Joey, we did this independent of each other, but when we record, we'll set up stations so that you can bounce around. You'll have the vocal set up, the guitar set up, the bass set up, and the drum set up all at the same time so that the moment you're losing inspiration on one thing, you can jump right to the other thing instead of just going straight from the beginning.

Speaker 3 (00:08:49):

Yeah, that's a great idea. And I do that in a way, although I like to finish the drums before I move on to all the other things, because I think that one day the drums are great sounding and overnight the heads, they get weird and you need your drum tech to come in and maybe change things. And it gets a little, I mean, if I have plenty of time and plenty of money to change the heads and everything, then I'll do it. But I'd like to make sure the drums are done and then that's it, and then we can move on. And then I, like you have stations or whatever, I have everything set up so we can just play one song bass and then do some vocals. We can do some backing vocals, we can do per precaution, we can do everything. So that is more or less how I work, however, it is sometimes with some bands and in some productions I like to have things done and then say we are done, and then we move on. Also, because sometimes there are members that are going, oh, I have to leave the 22nd because my mom has a birthday party or something. And then we need to make sure that his stuff is done before he leaves, obviously. And sometimes those things dictate how I work. And even though that's a little annoying, because then you are sometimes racing against time and trying to finish things before you're actually ready to finish stuff. And that's a little weird at times. But I manage, I'm used to working under pressure. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:10:40):

I think it's hard to find a situation where there isn't some sort of pressure involved. But the whole working and stations thing for me developed out of necessity for having to try to get vocals in earlier so that the vocalists wouldn't blow their voes out. I guess the way that I learned to record, which was very traditional for metal metal's, a very untraditional style of recording, but where you do everything and then the last two days you do vocals. So you spend three or four weeks doing all the music and then spend two days on vocals and the vocalist just better nail it.

Speaker 3 (00:11:26):

Yeah, that's just

Speaker 2 (00:11:28):

Terrible. So dumb.

Speaker 3 (00:11:30):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:11:30):

So bad. Yeah, I tried to get the vocalists started from almost the beginning. Maybe once drums are done or something.

Speaker 3 (00:11:39):

Yeah, I think, yeah, that's cool. And the thing with that is that most of the times, well, it depends, but sometimes I am not ready with the, how do you say, all the Q guitars were terribly played, or they were, maybe we did some weird arrangements, so we needed to work on that. So I'd like to make sure that when the singer comes in, he or she listens to something that sounds pretty good. And if it's too early on in the, how do you say, in the production, it's sounding a little crazy, everything. But yeah, you're right. I mean, when I started recording, when I was in a band back then, that was exactly the scenario. We spent maybe two weeks recording, and then I was the singer of that band, and I had a weekend, or maybe not even three days to do a full album.

(00:12:40):

And then of course, I ruined myself. And the vocals on those albums are just crappy sounding, obviously, because yeah, it's impossible to do it like that actually. So I like to spread out the vocal recordings, and I like to make sure that we start with vocals and maybe do one day of vocals and then maybe sometimes a couple of days of rest for the vocalist, because the first day they're always really excited and they push themselves and I can do four songs, and then they can't because the next day they can't even talk. No. So I tried to save people's energy a little bit, maybe two days off, and then I do some more vocals and of course, as much as possible, as long as they sound good, and if there's a day where they feel like, ah, it's not working for me today, we can just move on to whatever needs to be done, bass, guitars, solos, everything.

Speaker 2 (00:13:45):

Yeah, I think that that's great. I mean, really, vocals are the priority, in my opinion. They are what will make the difference, in my opinion, on whether or not the record is a success or a failure for the most part. So to not treat them gold I think is kind of dumb.

Speaker 3 (00:14:07):

Yeah, you're right. But sometimes I feel, even though I try to make sure that I have plenty of time for vocals, sometimes it just, ah, shit, the drums took maybe, yes, then they took one week too much or, and then, oh, I know where that's going to lead me. That's going to lead me working after extra hours on the vocals, or just hope I have everything before the band flight is going or whatever. There's always, yeah, I mean, maybe that's also a good thing that it's never a perfect session. It's always stress at the end, and it's always chaos. But yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:14:55):

Have you ever had a situation that doesn't end up in chaos at the very end? I can't think of one.

Speaker 3 (00:15:02):

Yeah, maybe I have a few, and then I get really, then I go, oh, shit, something's wrong because it went so smooth, and maybe everything is just shit, because it's supposed to be crazy at the end where everybody's like, oh, oh, we're going to make this. And I think that's just, that's a major part of the game. I think everybody feels like that. And all the bands that I work with, when they come back, they're like, this time it's going to be different with the time pressure. And it's not different. It's exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (00:15:45):

I forget what this is called, but there's an idea that the amount of work that you have will always stretch out to fill the entire amount of time that you have allotted to work on it. So no matter how much time or how much work you have, somehow it will always stretch perfectly to where you have just enough time to get it done. Scientific phenomenon.

Speaker 3 (00:16:11):

Yeah. Yeah, it is like that. And sometimes, I mean, when I went from the two week album recordings, when I used to do that back in the days when the bigger budgets came in and I could do long stretches of reduction, it just seemed like in the beginning we were being really, things were happening. And then in the middle of the whole period, it seemed like everybody was coming in late, and maybe we leave early today and go drink coffee. And it's like that. It's hard to keep the energy level really high all the time, and we're not supposed to, but that's how it also ends up. You're saying that even if you have two, three months to do the production and you'll be stressed out the last couple of days, that's how it's without fail.

Speaker 2 (00:17:15):

So you're a guitar player first. What made you get into recording? How did that happen?

Speaker 3 (00:17:22):

Yeah, I think it's probably the same story as everybody else on this program. But yeah, I played in the band, played guitar, and I was the vocalist as well, and the studio work was just really exciting for me. I was never the type of guy that would be really happy about playing live. It was fine, and I did it, but it didn't give me anything special really. It was just, yeah, cool. But being creative and being in the studio, and I think maybe from when I was a kid, I was just, if I had the chance of watching something or some band recording in a studio, I was like, yeah, all those buttons and things to work on and compressors and shit, even though I didn't know what it was. But that just turned me on somehow. And I think I started to also, the fact that when my band went into the studios in Denmark, most of them didn't really have any clue of recording heavy metal.

(00:18:35):

And they really, they just looked at us like we were insane when we were distorting our guitars and playing ultrafest drums and shit. And I thought, Hey, I mean, I can do this because I know what it sounds like in my head, and I kind of know how the end result has to be, even though I had no idea how to get there. But then I borrowed some equipment from some people and I rented some gear, and I just started recording my own band and local bands. And even though it sounded pretty shitty, it had something, I mean, it sounded like metal. It didn't sound like somebody who didn't know what they were doing. And that just developed that suddenly I saw myself actually being more interested in that than playing in a band.

Speaker 2 (00:19:30):

It's so funny, man, how that is such a common story with so many of the guys that we've talked to on here that they started as musicians.

Speaker 3 (00:19:41):

They

Speaker 2 (00:19:41):

Went to a studio and nobody knew how to record metal, and it could be like a million dollar studio, but if they don't know how to record metal, it's going to be garbage. What comes out, lots of the guys who've been on the podcast are nailed the mix, started recording metal because nobody around them did it. And they needed to get their own band recorded.

Speaker 3 (00:20:05):

Yeah, that's exactly how, or more or less, how I got into the whole game. And I know more people who are telling me the same story, and I think, yeah, that's very common.

Speaker 2 (00:20:20):

I mean, that's how I started too.

Speaker 3 (00:20:21):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:20:23):

Yeah. I was looking for studios for my band, and I got the prices to record an album, and they were ridiculous. And then I realized that none of these people at these studios even recorded metal in the first place. So we were going to be spending like $20,000 to have enough time to record something in a genre that these people never even worked with.

Speaker 3 (00:20:48):

Yeah, that's insane. Really.

Speaker 2 (00:20:50):

Yeah. Why not just learn how to do it myself?

Speaker 3 (00:20:52):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:20:53):

So you quickly found that you enjoyed working in the studio more than even being the musician yourself?

Speaker 3 (00:21:01):

Yeah. I mean, I like being a musician. I like playing guitar or I like being creative, writing and working with all the aspects of the music, part of being in a band, but that other part of being in a band, the one that you have to tour, you have to promote yourself. You have to get out there. And what if it fails and oh shit, that's just not, I mean, plus now I feel pretty old and I don't, yeah, there's no chance that I will ever, I mean, make it with my music or my band and it doesn't matter anymore because I don't care. I really just enjoy playing guitar and writing, and I mean recording guitar. And that's the fun part. If I don't really care if people listen to what I do, as long as I feel it's that I did something and I've written a song and yeah, that's cool with me.

Speaker 2 (00:22:12):

So do you write songs for your clients a lot or help them improve their songs?

Speaker 3 (00:22:19):

I don't do that that much. I help them improve if it's necessary. I try to make sure that I hear whatever songs that the band is supposed to be recording when they come in, and if I feel there's room for musical improvement, I will work with them on arrangements or vocal lines or whatever. And that's a fun part, but there's something, I have a little bit of a feeling that many metal bands, or maybe that's just the ones that I work with, are not so happy about getting help from outside, even though they respect me and know what I can do, but they want do everything themselves more or less. And I understand that, but sometimes working with this for many, many years and listening to music eight hours a day every day for the last 20 years or something like that, I have a great experience that there's no need, why they shouldn't really use that for something. But I mean, sometimes it's a little hard to get where they appreciate that I'm coming with ideas and it's a fine line when you can do it and when, then when they'll be upset about it.

Speaker 2 (00:23:53):

Well, you work with some bands that have some pretty great musicians in them or bands that have a very, very defined sound, like let's just say two examples. Volbeat is a band that has a very defined sound.

Speaker 3 (00:24:10):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:24:11):

You can spot them no matter if you've heard the song or not. The moment they start playing, it's them.

Speaker 3 (00:24:17):

And that's actually a pretty important thing because I would never, and I have never changed a thing in Volbeat songs because when Michael comes in and he has a song, the singer and Maine are songwriter, it's done, and it sounds like him and it, there's no, I mean, why would I change? I could say, oh, it would be cool to have this really weird chord here, but then I've ruined everything. So that's why I would never, ever change things because it has his unique signature and there there'll be no reason to change it. The only thing I've done on those albums is doing backing vocals since actually up till the last two albums, it was me doing all the backing vocals just because he didn't really know how to do harmonies, and I did. And he would be like, yeah, you sing him.

Speaker 2 (00:25:19):

Yeah, sure. But that's a perfect example. I think that being a really good producer means knowing when to back off and to not impose your own musicality on it, but then also knowing when your musical skills are needed. And so if the artist already has as defined of a vision as they can have and the skills to pull it off, that's great. But then if you realize that's all there except it needs some vocal harmonies and they just don't know how, boom, perfect, and you knew how to do it, that's where I'm sure that if they needed help in other departments too, you could have helped too. But I think it takes understanding when to contribute and when not to contribute.

Speaker 3 (00:26:09):

Exactly. And I think I would rather, even though if I have the feeling that something could be changed here, and I would suggest something and I would be very gentle and suggest that, Hey, maybe we should, or have you thought about changing this? And if they're like, no, no, no, no. And then I would back off immediately because I mean, even though for me, and maybe we never know, but it could be an important change. If the band is not interested in the change, I would feel terrible to, you're saying impose that onto them. But it is a fine line and it's very, I mean, how do you say it's delicate thing? You have to be careful with those things. And sometimes it's also just a matter of saying, if they're like, I'm not sure about this riff. I'm like, okay, what else have you gotten? Maybe they have something better and they come up with that themselves, but I'm the guy who's just saying, maybe try something else and then they do something else, and that's cool.

Speaker 2 (00:27:28):

Well, like you said, it's delicate. Earlier you said that you had to use their psychological skills, and I think that this a perfect example of understanding body language and understanding what people's reactions mean to things. And so when you make a suggestion, if your psychological skills are on point, then you'll know whether or not you should keep going with your suggestion or you should immediately stop.

Speaker 3 (00:28:00):

Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 (00:28:01):

And I think that that's crucial to know because every band's different and they'll all react differently to different things, different types of suggestions. I mean, what about amaranth, which is much more, I guess, musician friendly in a way.

Speaker 3 (00:28:20):

Yeah. That's also a case of, I mean, my input in Amreth is more like, I'm not going to be, how do you say, going to be a co-writer or arranging songs or something, because what Olive of comes up with is as well, I think so unique. So you can't really, it's actually done when he comes up with a song, everything is in his head, and what I have to do is that I capture everything and make sure everything is sounding the right way. And I don't even have to tell him if there's a part that we both feel is not working, we can just look at each other and he'll know it as well. And Oh, I know exactly what to change there.

Speaker 2 (00:29:17):

You just give him the look. And he's like, yeah, that part sucks.

Speaker 3 (00:29:20):

Yeah. But he's such a fantastic, I think, songwriter. So I mean, it's from the very beginning, he just came in with those songs and I was just like, yeah, everything's just working here and everything's so well thought out. There's no need for me to sit there and be the music teacher. It's actually the other way around where all of his teaching me stuff. So

Speaker 2 (00:29:49):

That's cool. I'm very curious now because the vocals to that, they have, man, that sounds like straight up pop, straight up, really good pop. Now, amaranth is a band that here in the States, people who listen to bands like Night Wish or whatever, listen to them, but it's not like something that's on the radio or anything.

Speaker 3 (00:30:18):

No,

Speaker 2 (00:30:19):

It's not like Top 40 music here.

Speaker 3 (00:30:21):

No, it's not. No.

Speaker 2 (00:30:21):

But I'm aware that that type of music is a lot bigger in Europe, and it sounds like I said straight up pop. So can you tell me a little bit about the approach to dealing with the vocals, writing them, or do they come in? How do you approach the production to them? Is it a pop approach in the mix? I'm very curious about this.

Speaker 3 (00:30:47):

Yeah, the funny thing is that, I mean, there's really little difference between how I work with them and many other bands. It's just the way everything is arranged and the way that Elise also sounds. Of course, we're aiming for that polished pop vocal sound. That's the goal, of course. And what we do is, of course, we take maybe 20 takes on a verse, maybe 40, maybe 50, and then there's nothing really out of the ordinary, but then I comp it and I of course tune everything and make sure everything is right. And for the backing vocals, we layer them pretty heavily. I mean, sometimes maybe 20, 30 tracks of backing vocals because there are so many counter melodies and harmonies and shit going on in the background that it's crazy, but it's also a big part of that sound. And then I think one of them, not the most important tool, but a very important tool in that, in those productions is the synchro arts vocal line, because you have to make sure that everything lines up You, I mean, must

Speaker 2 (00:32:17):

I love that plugin.

Speaker 3 (00:32:18):

Yeah. I mean, I can't track or work on vocals without that because it's a small ending and a little s that's a little late instead of just hand editing and shit would just, the singer would be, oh shit, I was a little late there, or That thing went longer than the other one. And I was like, yeah, fine, whatever. It's fine. And then I would vocalize everything because it's just got to sit as one massive thing. It's more like, I mean, some of the vocals or the backing vocals and the Emirates albums are more like a huge pad from a keyboard actually, because there's so many notes and so much shit going on there that it's crazy. But I think the funny thing is that me and all of kind of clicked on that we both, I mean, I grew up with abba. That was just such a huge part of my, I mean the soundtrack for my childhood really. And the same with all of,

Speaker 2 (00:33:28):

They had great harmonies.

Speaker 3 (00:33:29):

They had these massive harmonies and everything double tracked, and so that is what I hear in my head. I think when I hear Emirates and in some way, that's what I'm going for, but also the more modern or the Max Martin type of ways of doing top 40 vocals, that's also a huge inspiration.

Speaker 2 (00:33:58):

Well, it straight up sounds like that style of production

Speaker 3 (00:34:02):

And it's supposed to sound like that, so if we nail it, then it's really cool.

Speaker 2 (00:34:08):

Can we talk a little bit about the vocal chain that you would use for something like that?

Speaker 3 (00:34:13):

Yeah, of course. On all the Amreth albums, except the latest one we used the microphone is my Noman U 87, which is on 99.9 of all my productions that I record myself. And on the new one, it was U 47 Fit Mike. That's a nice bit more nice sounding, which is, we thought that was really cool. We had a shootout, we did an AB test, and we felt like the niceness of the U 47 was just working better for the new album. And that goes into my Neumann V 76. PV 76, I think it's called Mike, pre Old seventies Crap. Sounds fantastic. And that goes into an Noman W 4 95 eq, which takes a little low end out and adds a little top end. It's a very sweet eq, but I just add, I think two DB around, two DB lift on 10 kilohertz, and that goes into, what does it, oh, it goes into Siemens U 273, which is an old seventies compressor, and it just adds a little bit of richness and fatness. And then I slam everything on with my purple audio MC 77, and that's actually the vocal chain, and it sounds pretty ready already from that chain going into Pro Tools. And I just in the mix, I would compress a little bit again, maybe sometimes DS a little bit and EQ a little bit. It's just subtle things that I'm doing really, and sometimes an L two limit on the vocal bust just to keep it pretty firm and hold it back a little bit.

Speaker 2 (00:36:35):

That's a very unique chain by the way. That sounds like it is going to come in sounding like you said, close to done, but also it sounds like it's going to sound unique because I don't think that there's too many people using a chain like that.

Speaker 3 (00:36:57):

No, I don't think either. I mean, I think a lot of people are using the 1176 on the way in. I mean, yes. Well, yeah, but I think, I don't know why. I just fell in love with all those old vintage German audio products and I have a bunch of that and that change just, I don't know, it sounds fantastic. I think it just, when you turn up the vocals and you start recording it is already sounding pretty sweet, and I'm not slamming the 1176. It's just taking off the peaks, and I think that many singers also really like to sing with some compression on that Sounds great. A hardware compressor is maybe that's, for me, a good thing to use when recording. I don't think a software compressor can do that much and has so much color, if I may say so.

Speaker 2 (00:38:01):

I agree. I was just hanging out with Taylor Larson. He just did nail the mix and he had just bought a Yuri 1176, and I've used one of those for tracking vocals before as well, and they just add something that nothing else gives it.

Speaker 3 (00:38:22):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:38:22):

Just unique. It pushes the vocals in a way that's just great to listen to. It's a pleasure to listen to and it just makes them sound right. It's hard to explain, but I've never heard a plugin or let alone other compressors be able to do it. A lot of the knockoff 1176 s that come out now, I haven't heard them be able to quite do it the same way as the older stuff. Does it? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:38:52):

I don't know which one, because there are tons of different ones. I think you already did, right? As far as I remember. I don't know which one is maybe the best or whatever, but I tried the Universal audio reissue the black one, and I didn't really like it. And then I tried the purple audio MC 77, and I really liked that, and I can't really tell why, but it's just

Speaker 2 (00:39:20):

You just do.

Speaker 3 (00:39:20):

Yeah, I do, and it sounds great, and the vocals are really easy for me to sit right in the mix. I feel I can just doesn't take much time. Then I feel the vocals are working in the mix and what I do when I get mixes that are with vocals that have been recorded with an okay mic, but with no compression or little compression, and it doesn't really, I fight and I put on 700 plugins and it doesn't really do the trick, then I just run everything, all the vocals through my vocal chain without the pre-amp. I have a setup so I can just track kind of like re-amp the vocals and then they sit right in where I want them in the mix. That's a fantastic trick. I think

Speaker 2 (00:40:11):

That's actually something I've done too. It makes all the difference in the world. I definitely feel like there's, I don't know, because I love plugins, but there's just something that the proper outboard compressor does for vocals that it's just untouchable.

Speaker 3 (00:40:31):

Yeah, you're right. If I want to, I can slam a screamer vocal with, I mean, I can see the needle going nuts, and it seems like it's the gain reduction is maybe 20 dbs, but I don't hear it like that. It still sounds fantastic, and if you do that with a plugin, it's just weird. You'll get weird things. You'll get too many and you'll get all kinds of unwanted artifacts, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:41:05):

So when you're doing vocals for a band like Aborted, for instance, which is nothing like amaranth is brutal death metal, do you approach it the same way the UU 87?

Speaker 3 (00:41:21):

I do, yes. With aborted has been, we've tried different things because he actually wants to do handheld mics most of the time. So I think, if I remember correctly, the last time, I think his deep vocals were SM seven, and the screamer vocals were just my U 87. And actually, if he wasn't like a guy who wanted a handheld mic, I think we would just use the U 87. It sounds great for growling. I think there's no, for me need to change it, and it's the same vocal chain with the same setup just for me, it's just working on so many different styles. I think it just, yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:42:14):

They're a cool band, by the way. I've enjoyed their stuff for years.

Speaker 3 (00:42:18):

Yeah, good. Yeah, they are. Yeah, really.

Speaker 2 (00:42:20):

So I'm wondering, what's your approach then to tracking drums? We've been talking about vocals for a little while. What are some of your favorite go-to microphones for tracking drums? What's your approach? I'm curious because you also said that you use a drum tech and I use a drum tech every single time because I have a fantastic drum tech, and I've always just felt like even though I could tune the drums, I'd rather have an expert tuning them, and I'd rather be the guy saying, I like the way this sounds. I don't like the way this sounds. The Tom is ringing a little weird, could you fix that? They need to ring less, ring more and not blast out my ears hitting the drum.

Speaker 3 (00:43:00):

Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:43:01):

Exactly. I just want to be the one judging.

Speaker 3 (00:43:03):

Yeah, it's the same thing with me. I mean, had the same, actually, I had a period of time where I felt like, shit, I'm terrible at recording drums. They sound terrible. I had no idea what I was doing wrong. I felt I used the right mics and everything. And then I met this, this is actually a guy I've known for a long time, and he agreed on tuning drums for a project. I can't even remember how we got started. And then he tuned the drums and I was like, oh my God. It literally changed. I mean, it was night and day and it changed everything for me. And I was like, shit, I've never heard my drum sound so good. Of course, I mean, even though people would agree, but I don't think a lot of people use a drum tick or of course, it's also a matter of finding a guy who knows what you want, and I mean, it has to work for you.

(00:44:04):

If he's a type of guy that's tuning in a way so it doesn't work for you, then it's of course not good. But I mean, with my guy who's called Martin, we just clicked and he's been doing everything for me for the last 10, maybe 15 years, something like that. And it's such an important thing. And he would also be listening to symbols and going, oh, wait a second. Wait a second for that chorus. Please play on that one. And I mean, he's taught me stuff like that, and it's great. I would sometimes stop people recording and go in and say, please, let's, when we do the next take, let's on We take this symbol for the chorus. And when you hit the stuff like that, because that makes a huge difference. It does. And it's something that I feel like not a lot of people think about.

(00:45:01):

I mean, it's always like the drummer is always looking and me going, you are such an idiot, because I'm not dissing drummers, but for many of them, symbols are just symbols, and they actually, many of them look at the price and then they buy the smallest ones because they're the cheapest. And so that's why I have a bunch of huge symbols that I normally use because I like hearing those big sounds of long crash, sustain. Anyway, but that whole thing with working with the drum tech and a guy who understands drums, because that's just such actually the hardest part to record, I think, because there are so many things that can go wrong. I mean, halfway into the first verse of a song, the snare can, if there's a lock that's or a screw that's going to, that's not, it'll rattle and things like that, it's falling apart. And you just have to know everything about drums to do that and to make them sound fantastic. I think you would agree. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:46:19):

Most people, I'd rather have an expert helping me with that stuff,

Speaker 3 (00:46:24):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (00:46:25):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:46:26):

And of course, we learn, I mean, I've learned a lot from working with my drum tech, but then again, I really can't do a production without him if I mean serious business because it's, he's just great. And he would sometimes listen to, sometimes he's there doing the whole drum recording so he can go in and fix things. And sometimes he would go for this song, Jacob, can we try another kick drum? And I'm like, yes, sure. And then it makes such a difference.

Speaker 2 (00:47:01):

Yeah, that's part of what I love about it too, with my guy is he'll bring different snares and give us options. And so when I say I want more articulation in the ghost notes on this song, he'll be like, well, why don't we try this snare, what it's made out of and its depth will help bring that out more than retuning our original snare.

Speaker 3 (00:47:25):

Yeah, that's such a fantastic thing also, because I mean, even though it's something that I know of and I can hear that something's wrong, it's good for me to not think of that all the time. I can be more concerned with, am I picking up everything with my mics and priests? Are they placed right? Is the song working is the tempo, right? And all those things, because there are so much to deal with when you're laying down the foundation of the song, which is the drums. And if I also have to think about tuning and all kinds of things all at the same time, I would sometimes miss something. And so it's great to have this guy sitting around and listening to the drums all the time.

Speaker 2 (00:48:13):

So to everyone listening, find yourself a great drum tech.

Speaker 3 (00:48:17):

Yes. I mean, yeah, and pay them for their job.

Speaker 2 (00:48:21):

Well, yeah, I was about to say or convince the band, of course, that it's worth the expenditure.

Speaker 3 (00:48:28):

Yeah, it is. And sometimes just if the budget is terrible, I would still pay him out of my own pockets because it be, I've done that

Speaker 2 (00:48:38):

Too.

Speaker 3 (00:48:38):

Yeah. Because it's going to be sitting there and going, she hit the drum sound like crap, and I hate my life, so I'd rather pay him anyway. But yeah, drum mics. Okay, let's see. Here's what I normally use, and sometimes it change changes a little bit, but kick drum is RE 20 inside, that's electro voice re 20.

Speaker 2 (00:49:07):

Oh, nice.

Speaker 3 (00:49:08):

Yeah. And outside lately it's been, I have a Neumann 57, which is a tube mic, fantastic sounding tube mic, and that's on the outside of the kick, even with aborted and snare is Sennheiser MD 4 41. I think I started using that five, six years ago or something like that. I actually used to use MD 21, which is an omni mic, a small, weird sixties reporter mic from SEN as well. And that has a very distinct sound to it, but the fact that it's omni is a little weird because it's picking up all kinds of shit. But I really like the sound of that. It's a little scooped and has some kind of lift in a very pleasant area. I think for snare, I really like that, but I don't use it that much anymore. The four one is more full sounding and it doesn't pick up a lot of bleed, which is pretty good for snare. That's good.

Speaker 2 (00:50:24):

Makes a big

Speaker 3 (00:50:24):

Difference. Yeah, it's a huge mic though, but I think placement is normally pretty okay with that one. I can always just make it fit somehow. And I have a condenser on the bottom snare. It's normally something like a KG 4 51 E, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:50:50):

I love those on there.

Speaker 3 (00:50:51):

Yeah, me too. And Toms are MD 4 21. Also, Sennheiser a very German setup actually. And that's for the rack Toms, when it comes to floor. Toms, I really like using twenties there as well, because to me they're closer to kick drum really just with more tone in there. And I started, I think maybe 10 years ago or something like that. I started micing, maybe not 10 years. Anyway, I started micing the bottom head of the Toms. And to me, that made such a difference, and I've done that ever since. And I might it with the small condenser, maybe also a KG 4 51, and that's a fantastic thing because you can get a lot of attack and a lot of tone there and a lot of low end instead of the, how do you say, the top head would be more like a quick smack and then maybe a little bit of tone. And then I can compress and sculpt and really make the Tom tone hit. I think I'm a fan of the, how do you say, the fusion kit type sound. I mean where the Toms are going go with a little bit of a pitch bent. That's what I want to hear in some way, and lots of tone and not just attack. So actually lively sounding drum kit.

Speaker 2 (00:52:27):

Sometimes I've noticed that if you get rid of too much of that ring, it makes it a little harder to mix because a lot of that ring disappears the moment you add guitars. But it definitely helps it sound more alive, like you said.

Speaker 3 (00:52:42):

Yeah. And I'd rather have really long decay than a short one or sustain, because I can always G it out if I feel it's in the way of something or I can manually edit and do fade or whatever. But I mean, normally it's just a matter of putting on a gate and then choosing the decay time and making that work with the song or with the drum kit. And from using a good drum tech, I feel like, I mean, he just makes sure that everything is working and it's not being overly crazy all the time with the Toms hanging and sustained everywhere, but rather a lot of tone than only a smack, because that will, I mean, that to me doesn't really work or it doesn't make sense to me really want, I want to hear the notes. Plus that I think that my drum take are tuning Tom's in. How is he tuning in thirds, I think,

(00:53:54):

Or something like that, because he's always testing them and trying to play a melody on them because they have to be, they're in a certain pitch and he has a almost perfect pitch. It's really interesting actually. That's just crazy. But that really helps as well. Make everything sit and make things sound great, I think. Yeah, and Mike's going back to that. For overheads, I use Norman, K-M-I-A-D four vintage old pair. Sounds absolutely brilliant, I think. And then I have, actually, I'm a little spoiled because I use an M1 49 over the whole kit to pick up some extra snare. It's like a center overhead, but it's pointing towards the snare. And I try to make, I compress that mic pretty hard and I try to make the snare crack really hard in that mic or that channel.

Speaker 2 (00:55:05):

So how far above the snare do you put it?

Speaker 3 (00:55:09):

It's maybe hanging, how do you say? How would you say? Somewhere around half a meter, if that makes sense for you over the drummer's head, somewhere around that. So it's maybe like, depends, it's a little,

Speaker 2 (00:55:23):

So for you Americans that's three feet.

Speaker 3 (00:55:26):

So

Speaker 2 (00:55:27):

Half a meter is one and a half feet Americans.

Speaker 3 (00:55:30):

Okay. Yeah, right. The metric system. And that mic really, I mean, blending that in gives it a really nice crack and I can kind of sculpt that to sound. I can put a little bit of extra low in there and get really extra some extra fatness on the snare there as well. That's a cool thing. I think

Speaker 2 (00:55:55):

I've done that with an SM seven B sometimes, and it's worked really nicely

Speaker 3 (00:56:01):

I think. So it's a little crazy with phasing sometimes between overheads and other things. But if it goes completely or if I feel like it is being out of phase or something's weird, I use auto align from sound redx to make sure it sits right. But that's

Speaker 2 (00:56:28):

A good plugin.

Speaker 3 (00:56:28):

Yeah, it's really neat. It's cheap and it's great. Yeah. Room mics or Yeah, I use two KM 184 nomans as well. And it's, how do you say the overheads are by the way? XY all the time. And the rooms are space pair. And then recently I started doing an, I have an MS set up with the Annoyment SM 69 stereo mic, a fit mic as well. And that's a really cool thing. I think I can get a really wide feel of the symbols. I place that two meters in front of the kit and I keep it in the symbol height, so I actually pick up, of course, I pick up the whole kit, but a lot of symbols, and that gives me a really wide feeling, or I can really control the whiteness of the space of the symbols. With that.

Speaker 2 (00:57:35):

I am actually curious about something about the XY on the overheads, because the traditional thing for metal is a space pair. So I'm curious what it is you like about the XY overheads?

Speaker 3 (00:57:49):

To me, it picks up the whole kit, and I don't know why. I know that it's for metal, it's very traditional to, how do you say, to be able to hear where the symbols are being hit or it's extreme lift or extreme right with the

(00:58:06):

Symbols. And I didn't really like that. It's not what I'm going for. I'm going for more like I want to pick up a stereo image of the whole kit. And if you look at the drum kit from the, yeah, it's just a drum kit. It's actually not that extreme or if you stand in front of it, it's not extreme left and right, the symbols, I was not really going for that. So the XY system just worked for me also because it's very easy with face. You don't get all the problems that a space pair would be giving you. I felt like I actually had this thing where I felt like a space pair was something you would, or people would pick up from a live situation where that's maybe the best and easiest way of miking up a drum kit. And whereas the XY is more, you would probably ever, I've never seen a live situation with an xy,

Speaker 2 (00:59:09):

Neither have I,

Speaker 3 (00:59:11):

And I think that I felt like it was something that somebody took it from the live situation and took it into the studio. I'm not a scientist and I don't know very much about the physics, about Y, and I just feel like XY was picking up what I wanted to hear. It's not very wide stereo wise, but it picked up the whole kit in a very nice way I thought, and all of the symbols. And then if I feel like I'm missing something, if a guy has a splash extreme or left or a China that's far away, I would of course spot Mike that, and the same with right and high hat and blend that in. But I would also never put high hats or just a hundred percent left or a hundred percent right. It's always like 60, 65% or something like that. Even though I want to hear a wide drum kit, I don't want to hear it extremely crazy wide.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):

Okay, that makes sense. I also don't pan those hard. I always try to pan them where I feel like they sit in the stereo image

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):

Of

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):

The overheads. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):

Makes sense. Which

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):

Is usually in the 60% range.

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I've just seen people going completely nuts with panning on drums and yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):

Well, are you familiar with LCR mixing?

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):

Yes, although I haven't done it. No.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):

I've never done it either. One of my partners here does it and his mixes sound great. I've just never tried it. But literally everything is either hard panned or centered and that's

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):

It. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And it's working.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):

Yeah, it does work. When I've seen it work, I always wonder if I just spend too much time working on things that don't matter.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):

Yeah, that could be the case for me as well, just, and sometimes you get a little, you don't really know if it's just an old habit or I can't really tell if it's a habit I just picked up and I just keep on doing the same thing and then I don't even know if something else would work better. That's just how it is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):

So let's move on to bass. I'm wondering what you're looking for in a good bass tone. I feel like bass is one of the hardest things to get right at first, but it's also one of the most important things to get right because it's your foundation for everything.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):

The funny thing is that you can actually hear on a bass instrument that if it's going to work or if it's going to sound right, I think you can hear that just by picking a string

(01:02:15):

With the base, just standing and not plugged in. You can hear if the sustain is there, if the attack is there. And there are so many small things that makes bass sound right. And for me, what's actually in my head in some way is the sound. When you hit a low note on a piano, the hit on the string clang, that's actually what I want to hear and I want to hear tons of overtones. The worst thing is like dull bass where you only have the note that you are playing. And if you look at an analyzer, you will see a spike on that note and nothing else. That's the worst thing. That's never going to sit in a mix, I feel. So for me, the base has to be great. I mean, it makes a huge difference. It's such an important thing, and they're hard to find.

(01:03:20):

I've only maybe recorded two, three great sounding basis in my whole life. It's a little crazy to say that, but that's the truth. And it needs new strings. And I would, if I decide, and if I'm allowed to spend money on strings, then I change the strings after every song because yeah, absolutely. Especially the low one, because it will die eventually and it's going to die in an hour or so. And most people and bass players look at me and go, what the fuck are you thinking? And I would say, are your strings new? And they would be, yeah, they're like six months old. And so that's why I have an arsenal of strings all the time. And sometimes if people come in and they have, even though I tell them bring tons of strings, and then they think that tons are two packages, then I have my own to put on. That's very important,

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):

Man. I don't even let them warm up on new strings like change. Yeah, because they literally do dine like an hour

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):

Plus they look at me, these people, and I run around with all kinds of cleaning things, fast fret and lurik, and I dry off strings, and I am total nerdy about that. And people like, well, what are you doing? But it's such an important thing, especially for bass and kit guitar also, but bass, yeah. And what else is important? Yeah, of course, a good clean sounding di. I think I've sometimes used a di that is coloring a little bit, but I form metal that I want to hear a little bit more clean, and I want to make sure that everything is kind of untouched, so to speak. But for some rock productions I've recorded through Neve Di and cranked them a little bit. But yeah, good bass are hard to find. I mean, I have a music man stingray in my studio that I use from time to time, which I like. It's not perfect. It is still a little weird sounding sometimes because it's hard to have great sounding down tuned bass. But lately I heard actually on the latest epica that I did, I was really impressed with the bass sound on that one, and that was a ding wall bass. And I was like, yeah, okay. I got to buy one of those and put that in my studio. And whenever bass players come in, I would hand them that one and go, this is the one you're playing on.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):

I had a Fender jazz bass for a while, and I felt that way about it too. I would make everybody use it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):

Yeah, they can sound fantastic. I've heard fantastic sounding jazz bass as well, also precision.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):

But they're like, some sound great, some sound terrible. I don't,

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):

Yeah, just because it says one thing doesn't mean it's going to be great. You have to try out every instrument, every piece of gear.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):

Yeah, you're right. And a bass sound is, to me, that's such an important thing of the mix and the, how do you say, if you have a crushing bass sound that is, how do you say the low end is right, and then the tonal quality is right, and you get this crunchy attack. This can really drive the guitars as well. I love that. And I think what got me into that whole thing of that kind of overdriven piano sounding bass sound was maybe on, maybe Queen Rike on Empire. That could be, but definitely the Queen Rike bass sound, but also Didi Verney from Overkill had that type of clang bass sound. I don't know if that makes any sense to you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):

Absolutely makes sense to me. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):

Cool. And yeah, then in the nineties I heard Kings X, of course, that bass sound with his, what is that? Is that eight string bass? That's just amazing. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):

What strings do you favor? I love Drio Pro Steels for bass.

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):

Yeah, I use Ernie Balls. I love those. But they're really bright when you put them on and two hours later they're dead. But they sound fantastic from straight out of the package or the box. But yeah, I think I've heard some really expensive dead areas, but I don't really remember what that was. Is that the ones that you're talking about? Maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):

So they just sound clangy. They have a ton of highs and mids that just cut the mix. Great. And they die super fast within 45 minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):

Yeah, it's crazy. It's very expensive to be a bass player, but I mean, it's de worth it to be also, I mean, one thing that I don't understand is that if you are spending have a pretty good budget for a recording, then I mean, why not spend enough money on bass strings? I don't get it. But that's, I'm trying to teach people about the importance of changing strengths. Also on guitars, they would be like, no, they're fine. No, we put them on yesterday, they're dead. I mean, I dunno why it is like that. It's the same with drum heads. I mean, ideally you would change heads after every song. And sometimes I try to do that and not every time. And sometimes we'll just, ah, shit, we'll just spend so much money on that. And then we don't, especially snare and Toms, but I definitely changes the snare head every second song.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):

Yeah, same here. Every second song on this, basically I look at snare every second or third song just depending on who the drummer is. So, and how hard he hits the bottom. Toms twice per album. The top Toms three times per album and the snare usually four times per album.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):

Yeah, it sounds like what I do as well. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):

More if there's budget and time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):

If there's budget and time, you can't get me not to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):

So

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):

The only thing that'll stop me is budget and time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):

Yeah, you're right. And it's so important. And you'll be so much happier when mixing that or just sending that off to another mixer. You know that everything is just, they'll happy with you. They will be. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):

So what about guitar? You're a guitarist. Do you find that you spend more time on guitars than other things? Or

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):

Is

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):

That your specialty or

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):

No, I don't think so. It's not, I think in a way that each instrument requires something special, but guitars are like, that's where I am a tuning Nazi as well. Oh shit. I mean, when people come in with their instruments, we always check intonation and new strings and I check guitars. And if they don't, where if they bring, let's say 10 guitars and most of them are bad shape or they have never been intonated or something, then I have a guy that I call and either he comes around or I bring all their instruments to this guy and he fixes it because that'll just kill a recording process if the guitars are poorly and we can't tune a chord. But luckily, some years ago I did a band and I would tune chords in choruses, for example. I would do, yes, take this chord, no, try again and hold it there. And I would tune things and now it's good. And then we would record it and then go to the next chord. And it was just terrible. I hated that. And I did an album with Pretty Mates, which is an old eighties hard rock band from Denmark, and they've made records since 82 or something like that. And I worked with those guys and it was killing their guitarist. He was like, it's in tune now. And I was like, Nope.

(01:12:40):

And then he failed terrible. And then on the next production I did with them, he bought a guitar with Ever Tune.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):

I was about to ask you about that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):

Yeah, I have never looked back since then. It was amazing. We track guitars in one third of the time maybe that we spend on the first album because we were playing all the time. I mean, he would play things and I was like, yeah, that was good. That was fine. The take was cool, everything was right. And he was like, oh, amazing. And changing strings on it was so easy and we could, it was so such a fantastic thing to not think about tuning, but just being creative and playing and all those things. So I just made sure that I had, right now I have a seven string with Evert Tune. I have a six string with Ever Tune, and I have a Telecaster, a Style guitar with Evert Tune as well. So I can do a lot of different things with those three guitars. And many productions are done with those things because if it's not in tune, it'll never sound right. And Evert Tune has just changed everything. I think it's such a great thing.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):

It's amazing how much time you spend on tuning guitars in a production,

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):

Especially

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):

In metal production. It's a ridiculous amount of time. So I think Ever Tune is one of the best guitar inventions to come out in a long, long time.

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):

It is really, yeah. And I've maybe spent, yeah, I think you've spent a much more, I mean maybe three or four times as much time on tuning guitars than recording, than actually recording. I think so. Or before ever Tune. And now it's just you don't spend time on tuning. You just play. And that's such a fantastic thing. And people that, I introduce bands that are coming into the studio and I introduce it and I say, Hey, if we have problems with your guitars, let's use this one. And they're like, yeah, fuck man. And things are just going so much faster. And then it's fun again to record guitars. So yeah, that's really important.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):

Well, we've been talking for a while and I have quite a few questions here from our audience, and I want to make sure that we get to some of them. So do you mind if we switch to that?

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):

That's cool.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):

Cool. I don't want to run out of time before we can ask that, so, alright, so let's do some audience questions. So here's one from Francesco, Phil Go, which is, what are some of the details on fitting orchestral elements into Sath or Sath

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):

Three?

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):

He says that's his favorite work from you.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):

Yeah, that's cool. I really love that band as well. The funny thing is that I don't feel like I'm doing something very special with that. I just think maybe it's that the way that I don't have to fill out everything with guitars, if you know what I mean. I mean, in a usual metal mix, guitars would be very prominent, and if you have tons of orchestra that you have to fit in, then you can't find space for orchestra because the guitars are just all over the place. So I think that, I don't know, I think I also do a lot of automation on those types of albums. I mean, when there's room for guitars, when the roles kind of switch, when the orchestra is more like a background thing and there's a rift going, I can pull out the guitars and make that the main thing and the orchestra or the keyboards or whatever goes into the background. In many of these mixes, there's a lot of, how do you say, a lot of automation and volume-wise going on. I mean, not like three dbs or something crazy. It's really small. How do you say, increments of db, it's maybe then I lift the guitars, maybe half a DB and the orchestra goes down half a ADB or vice versa.

(01:17:12):

It's just a big puzzle. And trying to be musical with the automation, I think that's a very important thing. And also, I think that I normally just, I have all the orchestration on a bus where I can put some different, normally I have an EQ and it's scooping a little bit around maybe 250 to 400, something around that. Because many of these types of sounds from an orchestra are very prominent in that area. And that will fill up space really quickly. I mean, it'll be just like, woo, the horns and brass and strings, and they're all, or many of them really prominent in that area. And I need to filter that out to make sure it fits in. And then I think that my, I don't know, but my way of mixing is I always feel like I need to make sure that I have space in the mix, if you know what I mean.

(01:18:24):

There's always enough room. I can always mean, for example, with mixing Epica, the same thing. We had, I don't know how many, but I'm not lying if I'm saying 200 tracks of choir, orchestra, straw, tons of things going on that I needed to fit with a heavy metal band. And actually that could be a hard thing. But to me, it's not saying it's easy, but I feel like I, I'm used to mixing with, I mean, many of the bands that I work with use keyboards in some way or orchestration or something. So I kind of know how to make room for that. And I think that's the same for Sarah, that there was simply room for it in the mix. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):

Do you think that some of it comes down to the way they arranged their songs?

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):

Yeah, of course. Also, because I mean, with Sarah, the orchestrations are such a big part of the song. I had mean it wouldn't be the same. Adding, for example, orchestration to abort it, that would be a hard thing because so much stuff is going on all the time. Whereas STH is more, sometimes it's just chords that are being struck on the guitars and actually things are pretty laid back, even though it's an extreme metal band, but they arrange the songs, so it has room for those big orchestra parts. And that's really clever because for Sarah, I mean, that band is really something special, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):

So here's a question from Marco Santana Ruiz, which is, do you have any details on the apparent huge vocal layers of Volbeat?

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):

Yeah, I do because I track them all. And I mean, yeah, what I do with Volbeat is I think that all the songs are more or less double tracked. I mean all main vocals. And when we get to choruses, I would maybe track him four times. And the same with the backing vocals are done four times as well. And that way of double and triple and quad tracking is maybe a part of that big vocal sound. Plus I use two, sometimes three different types of delays, short a slap and a medium one and a long one, and then a little bit of reverb on it. And that whole thing also adds to the large vocal sound. And that's also become, I think, a pretty important part of the Volbeat sound, even though I haven't mixed the latest two albums, but I know that Michael wants it to be like that. Okay,

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):

Here's one from Robert Major and said it's been years since Jacob and I have spoken, so this will be fun. What's your preferred guitar rig signal chain these days? In the loop? Before the amp?

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):

Yeah. Funny thing because I don't think I've ever had anything in the loop, so nothing. No, I know some people use a little bit of stuff in the loop. I don't. But I think I've, some years ago I used the boss RGE 10. It's a graphic eq, like a half unit. You remember those small micro things, really noisy, but it sounded fantastic. And I eqd, I actually used it a little bit like a tube screamer in front of the amp, in front of the preamp. And I really loved doing that. And that EQ can be heard on hundreds of albums I've done, but lately I'm using some different types of tube screamer. I'm using the Maxon OD 820 a lot. I really like that, but it's not always that I use tube screamers or something like that in front of the amp. It's sometimes just a cable straight into the amp. And then we go and yeah, different amps angle, fireball 60 angle artist edition. And I use EVH 51 50 a lot. What else do I use? Yeah, JCM 800 as well. Some from time to time

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):

Classics.

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):

Yeah, can't go wrong with those. So here's one from David Tagos, which is I've noticed and loved how you make arrangements fit so well together. Victim of the city by Dune, which I'm pretty sure you mixed is one of my favorite ever. Partly because the details are really on point. Take for example, how the guitars bass is pumping with the kick drum in a way that somehow doesn't sound bad or too EDM, I noticed the same thing on the latest low Rider Betty Single. I'm sorry if I'm not very specific here, but could you tell us a bit about your thoughts behind mixing and or producing music that doesn't strictly fit under the basic rock band umbrella?

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):

Yeah, cool. It was a long question.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):

Yeah. Yes. I did produce and mix the dune or dune as we call it, here in Denmark as a Danish D rock slash electronic band. And that was actually my first time when I was introduced to side chaining because they had a keyboard player who was really into that whole thing. And we used that on, especially that single victim of the city. And the guitars are our side chained to, I think actually we used a kick that was not part of the mix, but that kick docked the compressor on the guitars. And then of course, I dunno, my way of mixing things and mastering made it also duck a little bit on the kick hits. So it had this pumping feeling. And what else did he want to know?

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):

Just about your basic approach or thoughts for music that's not for mixing music, that's not just your normal rock band setup?

Speaker 3 (01:25:19):

Yeah, I think to me it's easier to mix things in a way. So you can get, I mean, if you have on these rock album or rock productions, I put on tons of guitars. I mean, there's even more guitars than in many of the metal songs that I do, but they're all very light in some way. They're single coil guitars. It's tele and it's Strat and it's sgs, and they're not ultra heavy hamburger sounding guitars. So that makes everything really spacious and light sounding so you can get the bass and kick drum to pump and work much more. Whereas in metal, the guitars are so much fatter and they go so much lower in the frequencies. I mean, it's not very often in metal that you can get the pumping feeling working because it'll be all over the place when people start palm muting and they're tuned in B or lower. So I mean, the funny thing is that I don't think I approach recording or mixing rock very much different. I still want to feel like there's a song and that there's space in the mix, or I think I have the same, some kind of starting point in some way, but it's just the basic foundation and the basic sounds that's been recorded that kind of dictates where I'm going, so to speak. Did that make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):

Absolutely. Good. So actually a really good answer. So here's one from Benjamin Mueller, which is, Hey Jacob, besides your badass productions and mixes, it seems to be an odd question, but your high hats are just six sounding. I'm curious what high hat model and mic you use for tracking, let's say on the latest ever Gray records, do you have any specific processing or miking technique to get those crisp yet silky, lush, and wide epic, larger than life sounding hats? Or is it only a damn good sounding? One would be awesome to hear a little bit about that perhaps. I don't have to dream of damn high hats anymore. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:27:49):

Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I mean, for ever gray, I did not track that, so I can't really tell you what he used on that one, but I think if he feels like he hears the same type of high hat on that mix, then some my recordings and mixes, then it must be something that I do when I mix drums. And the only, well, what I have on the high head normally on the channel is it's just the SSL Waves channel. And I don't know, maybe, I think I take out a lot of harshness and I don't add very much brightness, but I think taking out some three to 4K and sometimes taking out a lot there makes it sound airy or whatever, I can't really, I don't have a word for it, but nice sounding. And that's also what I want to hear when I'm recording hats in my studio. I want to hear this airy, almost like white noise or pink noise type of sound, because to me, that area is not interesting for me. I want to hear the feeling almost like a shake her. I don't know what I do, but I'm glad that he's impressed with my high hat mixing skills.

Speaker 2 (01:29:28):

Well, it sounds to me like you just know what you want to hear and then you go for

Speaker 3 (01:29:33):

It. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And if I am working with a drummer and I feel like the high head is not working, I make him open it more. I try to have them pretty open when recording actually, because that makes a huge difference, I think, as open as possible. Alright,

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):

Here's one from Francesco Phil Go, which is, how do you approach mixing ultra fast drumming? Like aborted?

Speaker 3 (01:30:02):

Again, it sounds a little, maybe even arrogant, but I do the same, more or less. I still want to hear real drums even though it's ultra fast. I think I had, on the latest aborted that I did, I had a little bit of a discussion with, no, not a discussion, but with the drummer Ken bid Denny, because I wanted to sound like a huge drum kit and he was a little bit, but when it's so fast we can't have all these things ringing and we can't have the sound of a big drum kit because it's such a fast thing. And I'm like, why not really? I mean, so the only thing I did different on that aborted album compared to many of the other albums that I work on was that I added a little bit of what I would call an unnatural kick. I mean, it was a kick sample from, I think it was maybe even from Ken's, the drummer's own trigger module that he brought.

(01:31:09):

I think we added that sample in to have this ultra fast, tight kick. But it's only blended in there. It's still, I mean, it's played on a Yamaha Fusion Jazz Fusion kit. You wouldn't believe it, but it is. And the way I mix drums for aborted is the exact same way. I mean the same approach anyway as I would do it for Evergreen or whatever, but of course there's a little less room because everything is so fast. But I still want to hear it. You feel all the energy from a real drum kit because I cannot stand the typewriter type drum mixes where everything is, everything is so extremely unnatural sounding like plastic drum kits or whatever. And I hope people enjoy that to hear a real drum kit, even in fast stuff,

Speaker 2 (01:32:12):

I think it's very rare these days. And when it's done right, it's fucking great.

Speaker 3 (01:32:17):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):

Cool. So here's one from Reed Butterfield, which is, we're told that even when you become a seasoned pro, you're always learning. What have you learned about audio this past week?

Speaker 3 (01:32:29):

Oh, this past week?

(01:32:31):

Well, yes, he's right, because you are always learning and you should be. I think, so the funny thing is, the last week, or yeah, the last couple of weeks, I've actually been listening to a lot of your podcasts because it's, even when cooking, and I was out for a long walk and I listened to some podcasts, and it's so cool to hear other people going nuts about the same things that I go nuts about. And some of the things I went, Hey, that's something I could use, or just a mindset where I went, that's such a great thing. But what I've recently had I learned is that I can really hear the difference between converters because I'm in the middle of testing some different ones and it's, oh shit, it's night and day. And right now I'm actually a little puzzled about what I'm going for. Switching converters maybe, and yeah, shit. So that's something that I can line my bed and not be able to sleep over. That's just crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):

Which ones are you looking at?

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):

Actually, right now I'm testing Apollo sixteens and I'm not sure I like them. That's maybe a little early to say, but Oh shit. Yeah. What I use is that I use Lyx Aurora 16, and I am switching, and I don't know what to choose. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:34:16):

I feel like the Lynx is probably better than the Apollo.

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):

I feel so too. I had the feeling that the Apollos were, they had an extreme amount of high-end that I actually didn't like, and the Apollos were deeper sounding and had more 3D depth in some, or no, did I say the links

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):

Sounding

Speaker 3 (01:34:44):

More 3D and maybe a little bit crunchy, but in a very nice way. I think even though they're old, I really liked them, but I think I got to test some other stuff. I think your buddy Joel knows about that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:02):

Yeah, he's into it. Yeah, he's got burs.

Speaker 3 (01:35:06):

I know. Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):

Shit, they're very, very nice.

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):

Yeah, I got to test that. Let's

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):

Try the Apogee Symphony as well. Those are very nice.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):

Alright. I

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):

Don't think they're as nice as the burs, but they're definitely, I've shot those out next to my Lynx and I think they're better than the Lynx.

Speaker 3 (01:35:27):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):

Definitely better than the Apollos.

Speaker 3 (01:35:29):

Yeah, because I've, yeah. Shit. Apollos are maybe not the

Speaker 2 (01:35:32):

Way to go for me. Probably not just, so here's one from Joseph, which is how challenging was it to mix both female and male vocals in the same song with amaranth? Any techniques to make both sit well?

Speaker 3 (01:35:47):

Yeah. Well, I keep them, I think I eq them a little bit different or I kind of work on them, how do you say, separated. And I have, for example, Jake on a bus and I have Elise on another bus, and I can kind of make it work together, but I don't think there's such a huge difference in how I approach it as it's known now. It's the same vocal chain, it's the same mic they're using, and it's not really much of a difference. It's just the minute another person walks in front of the mic and it's a different person singing. You get the characteristics of that. And for me, it doesn't exactly have to blend perfectly because you actually want to hear them a little bit. It has to stand out, and I think that that comes just naturally.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):

Yeah. I mean, two completely different vocalists are going to sound completely different to begin with.

Speaker 3 (01:36:56):

Exactly. Yeah. So there's no need to approach it differently or eq it drastically different. I wouldn't do that. I just do more, less the same thing. Maybe a little small differences.

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):

But you're not reinventing the wheel to vocal sound wise between the two vocalists?

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):

No, and actually it sounds a little crazy, but when I start tracking vocals with bands, it takes about five, 10 minutes, then I have my vocal sound. That

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):

Doesn't sound crazy to me. Actually.

Speaker 3 (01:37:36):

That's a great thing. But I think some people would think that this is something that's going to take hours and hours and testing things, and I have a setup that I know works, and all the clients that I work with are happy. I feel about my setup and how I treat vocals

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):

Well. Great. Well, Jacob, it's been fantastic talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:38:07):

Thank you. It was a huge pleasure. Really. It

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):

Was fun. Likewise. Thank you for taking the time and sharing so much with our audience. Yeah, you're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:38:16):

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