DEVIN TOWNSEND: Ending Beloved Bands, The “Alpha” Rockstar Mindset, Defining Success

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Jay-Z microphones. For over a decade, Jay-Z microphones has combined all the critical elements of World Press, microphone manufacturing, patented capsule technology, precision electronics, and innovative industrial design. Jay-Z microphone's deep understanding of technology is informed by their open-minded, innovative approach. Trust us, sound can be glorious recorded. For more info, please go to JayZ mike.com. And now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:36):

Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like th God, Ms. Suga Periphery A Day To Remember. Bring me the Horizon, opec many, many more, and we give you the raw multitrack so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multitracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Before we get into the show, I want to tell you about a brand new product we just launched the Complete Beginner's Guide to Recording Rock and Metal.

(00:01:24):

It's a short two hour course hosted by Ryan Fluff Bruce, where he walks you through every single step of the process for recording a complete song from scratch in a simple home studio. If you've been thinking about getting into recording but you weren't sure where to start, this is for you. He gives you a list of exactly which gear that we suggest you get, shows you how to set it all up, then gives you a step-by-step guide to record a guitar, bass, and vocals and programming midi drums, everything you need to record an awesome high quality demo with no more than a few hundred dollars worth of gear. And just to make sure you have absolutely everything you need. The course includes copies of Tone Forge Menace, and Gain Reduction by Joey Sturgis tones and a virtual drum plugin from Drum Forge that's over $200 in software included with the course.

(00:02:15):

So it's pretty much a no-brainer. If that sounds cool to you, you can get instant access to the course and all the included [email protected]. And one last thing I want to tell you about, and this is really cool. I want to tell you about a cool new partnership we've got with Empire Ears. They make a quality in ear monitor that lets you bring your studio with you anywhere seriously. You can mix with these. And I know it sounds crazy for me to say, but it is absolutely true. If you're at all mobile with your audio or you are in a situation where volume is a problem like you mix out of an apartment, you may want to check these out. And here's how it works. Basically, URM users are getting hooked up with an exclusive discount and personalized support. And think about it like this, how sick is it to be able to take your reference with you Every single place you go with Empire Studio Response Monitor, you can have a flat response sound you can trust every single place you go.

(00:03:24):

So for more info, just reach out to [email protected] for details. That's D-Y-L-A-N at EMP I-R-E-E-A-R s.com. Alright, here it goes. I will shut up now. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. My guest today is the one and only Devin Townsend, who's a guitarist, singer, songwriter, producer, and general renaissance man through various genres, particularly Progressive Metal, but that's kind of selling Him Short is based currently out of Vancouver, Canada, but Devin has been everywhere in the world, possibly just not Antarctica playing music. His career spans a time from the early years of developing a sound, being the vocalist for Steve Vine, the early nineties to creating bands such as strapping Young Lad and releasing solo work under the Devin Townsend project in about 50 more things that if I sat here and started naming it would take up all the time. It's also produced several things, most notably Lamb of God. Welcome, sir.

Speaker 3 (00:04:37):

Thanks, man. It's good to talk to you again.

Speaker 2 (00:04:39):

Likewise. It's been a long time.

Speaker 3 (00:04:41):

Yeah, it has years. Just keep flying by. And when I think back to how long it has been, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Everything seems like it was yesterday.

Speaker 2 (00:04:52):

I think that that time that we came on your bus and you recognized us and the first time we met, that was I think 11 years ago.

Speaker 3 (00:05:01):

Holy shit, man. You were doing the project with Sean back then? Yes, it was with Cynic at the time that we were out with and

Speaker 2 (00:05:08):

That's right,

Speaker 3 (00:05:09):

That was actually the first, I think it was the first tour that I did with that band with Dev Townsend project and yeah, man, 11 years. Jesus Crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:05:21):

I know. It really does fly by

Speaker 3 (00:05:24):

In

Speaker 2 (00:05:24):

A blank.

Speaker 3 (00:05:25):

Yeah, that's why I think it's important just to keep pounding through these ideas. It's like, I'm sure it's the same with you, but I've got a checklist of potential ideas and projects that I want to achieve before you die kind of thing. And so you just keep howling 'em out one after the other and in hopes that you can enjoy the process as you go.

Speaker 2 (00:05:45):

Does that list ever get altered or has it kind of been the same list for a really long time and you're just going down it systematically?

Speaker 3 (00:05:54):

Well, I mean, certain things get amended where you might go through a project and realize that your interest in an avenue is not as great as it once was, and then you can modify your plans. But I also think that age and kids and all these things come into it and just modify your life plans full stop where perhaps my obsessive need to be productive for the past 10 years or whatever was more of an addictive mechanism that got shifted away from booze and drugs and now I'm just kind of my list of things that I want to do include a lot more doing Fuck All.

Speaker 2 (00:06:36):

Actually, this is something I did want to talk to you about because something that I can relate with, and you were one of my inspirations behind this, but when I decided to stop playing guitar and stop producing and pursue URM full time, it was kind of weird mentally because I had to find myself one way forever for 20 years and people knew me as one thing. And so, I mean, you could lie and say that it doesn't just do that new thing, whatever, but it's not that easy. It's not that simple. And I actually think that a lot of people, they don't quit something when they should. And there are times when I think that something has hit its expiration date and for whatever reason, maybe the project just lost you did what you needed to do with it, or you lost chemistry or your interests are not what they were at one point in time. I know that you've done that several times.

Speaker 3 (00:07:42):

Yeah, for sure. Is

Speaker 2 (00:07:43):

This something that comes naturally to you? Well,

Speaker 3 (00:07:45):

No. I mean, I think in retrospect I can rationalize it as such, but I think what you just hit on as well is of a lot of interest to me right now. I think part of following the creative compulsions requires you sometimes making decisions that seem absurd. Like the idea, for example, with yourself of stopping being a professional guitar player and moving into an entirely different field. I'm sure when you were learning guitar would've just been like a preposterous thought,

Speaker 2 (00:08:18):

Asinine.

Speaker 3 (00:08:18):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the same with both of, I guess the bands that I've done. At a certain point, perhaps I would've not had thought I would've quit them, but I think it makes much more sense to follow into a completely new avenue like you've done than I think most of us would give it credit for. And it takes a lot of internal strength too, right? Because you get something that's comfortable. And then I found that even at the end of DTP, I'm thinking to myself, this would be easy for me to maintain. I know what the pattern is here. I know what it requires in terms of the social engineering with the people involved with it. And there's an archetype musically here that I think I've got a modest fan base that will continue to buy, so therefore I just need to figure out what that formula is and just keep hitting it.

(00:09:10):

But my motivations for what I try and do creatively have been since the very beginning, aligned with I think my personal growth on some level. And as pretentious as that sounds, I think I've been going back to childhood and trying to figure out where the basic dysfunction was. And on some level, the loophole for emotional expression, which wasn't encouraged in my childhood, was I could do it in music and get away with it. And so everything kind of got hardwired to that. And as a result of that, through the growth that one hopefully makes as a human being, it takes you through all these dilemmas, whether or not it's anger or love or sadness or depression or what have you. And it was never a conscious decision to impose that on an audience. It just kind of became what I did for a living, which is fortunate in the sense that I have a career and it's provided me with a livelihood and what have you. But it's unfortunate in that as one's emotional profile changes, that just means that things are going to fall by the wayside and you never know where that's going to go. A lot of times I wonder if eventually I won't be doing this at all, but in the meantime, you just have to follow it where it goes and use your interviews as a way to try and rationalize these irrational things to people.

Speaker 2 (00:10:44):

Did the, I guess, the factor of having to deal with other people affect you at all in these decisions? I mean, you made the decisions, and I remember you always being really strong about them. You're done with this band, you're done with it, and you're no longer in that head space, the end. But I'm sure that every single night that you were on tour in the next band and getting emails, you would have people just clearly who couldn't believe that you would do that. I got it on a way smaller level, way smaller level when I stopped playing guitar. I'm sure it's a fraction of what you would've gotten for stopping strapping, but it still would be, I'd get these feelings like, well, who are you to tell me that I should still be playing guitar? And if you like what I did, go listen to it, but I'm not required to make you any more records. I get a little pissed about it. Would you ever have anything like that?

Speaker 3 (00:11:47):

Well, I do clearly, yeah. But I also think that there's, although it's inevitable that I get pissed at it, I try to, for my own mental health also take the point of view of, okay, well, if somebody is that got such an emotional investment in something that I've done in the past that they can't let it go, then I did it. Right. So hooray. But I think that ultimately part of the trip for me has been a type of low lying insecurity that I think only recently either to do with age or just tenacity is starting to level out. But I used to feel like I needed to apologize for it. I needed to feel like if people were upset that I wouldn't do it, not even apologize, but rationalize. It'd just be like

Speaker 2 (00:12:39):

Rationalize. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:12:41):

But after a certain level, just like you say, you're just like, oh, just get fucked, man. You know what I mean? And it's not like I don't care about the audience. It's not like I don't care about the fact that people have an emotional investment in it. It's not going to factor into my decisions. So it's just wasted effort.

Speaker 2 (00:12:57):

I do believe it's wasted effort. It was just, the reason I'm bringing it up is because starting to be so long that I don't get it as much as I used to. But the other day, two weeks ago, I spoke to somebody who I hadn't spoken to in 10 years from my local scene in Atlanta, just someone who I knew back in the day, actually longer. I knew it from the days before I knew him before doth was signed. So more like 15 years hadn't spoken to him in that long. He hit me up online and was just like, let's catch up. It's like, all right, I have an hour, let's catch up. And he asked me about it and I told him, yeah, I don't play anymore. I do this. I do URM now I do it full time. I can't do anything else. This is way too consuming. And I said what I wanted to say with guitar a long time ago, and I have nothing left to say with it. So that's it. He's like, you don't really mean that. No, actually, I really do mean that. He's like, no, man, that's just so disappointing. I was like, what do you mean it's disappointing? I said, I'm done. I did what I needed to do. Nah, man, that's just not right. That's just not right. You don't have

(00:14:07):

That little itch for it. It's like they just kept going and going and going. So it got me thinking about this again. I think that it's just hard for some people to understand that unless they've gone through it. But I also think that it's important for people to try to become a little more self-aware and realize that it's okay if the things that you want at one age are not the same things you wanted at a different age,

Speaker 3 (00:14:34):

For sure. But I find I've spent a lot of personal energy in trying to shift people's frame of mind who are fundamentally unshiftable, and then at the end of it, I'm like, Jesus Christ, man. I spent a ton of time here trying to make somebody see something that maybe they're just incapable of seeing. And I think that the frustration that I feel by those moments are only frustrating because I'm letting it now. Because for years, people would be like, when's strapping coming back? And now they're like, well, when's DTP coming back? And both of those scenarios have resulted in, like you say, a lot of rationalization to people that just, they don't care. They don't want to listen. They just want what they want. And I get it, man. I do. It's like I've also, I got a family member who will get together at Christmas and he'd be like, well, you know how you make a million dollars? I'm like, how, dude? He goes, well, you write a song for Celine Dion. And I'm like, strangely, she's not returning my calls, but as soon as she does, you know what I mean? I'll see if she wants to do

Speaker 2 (00:15:42):

Just that,

Speaker 3 (00:15:44):

A song about puppets or something, but it's like Guileless, there's no sense from this dude who I care for that he thinks that that's not an option in the same way that maybe your buddy or your acquaintance there feels that clearly it's just a switch. You can turn off and on. And there's a guy that I haven't talked to since I was in a band locally in Vancouver 25, 28 years ago, we were called Gray Guys. I haven't seen this guy since then. And he came up to me and he's like, dude, that was the best thing that you ever did, man. You got to do that again. And I was like, man, we really were bad. It wasn't good, man. It's like all the things that band was trying to do is what I've been slowly trying to refine. And that also extends now into along the same lines, a lot of what I choose to do album to album shifts according to where my compulsions go.

(00:16:51):

And often that's just a reaction to whatever came before. So if you do something heavy, I'll want to do something mellow and after something mellow, I might want to do something commercial. It's just one thing goes after the other. But the reason why I feel like I've been fortunate enough to have a fan base such as I do that has been as supportive is that it's going in the direction that I'm compelled to go. Therefore, it's emotionally authentic. And sometimes that leads me to things that people just don't like. Straight up people will be like, Hey, I really liked what you did in the past where it was more like guitar bass and drums oriented, and now you've got all these fucking choirs and the orchestras and all these samples, and it's not of the same quality, in my opinion, to what you did in the past. And my reaction to that is similar. I'm just like, well, I dunno what to tell you, man. It's like, that's what I want to do. I'm not doing it to be provocative. I'm not doing it to try and compel you to something that you don't like. It's where I'm going. If you don't like it, I get it.

Speaker 2 (00:17:51):

Also, that stuff you did in the past still exists.

Speaker 3 (00:17:54):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:56):

I mean can always go listen to that. It's not going anywhere.

Speaker 3 (00:18:00):

Years ago we toured with God flesh like maybe 2002 or something, and lead singer, that band, he's done all sorts of things like techno and his yasu project and all sorts of electronic ambient things. Yet the amount of shit he gets for not just repeating street cleaner over and over and over and over and over and over again is crazy. And also, I'm sure you see bands that both you and I know that are like, okay, maybe we're getting a little older. Maybe we realize that finances are something that we need to be a little more considerate of now. So we're going to consciously try and recreate what we did in the past,

Speaker 2 (00:18:42):

And

Speaker 3 (00:18:42):

They'll put out a new version of that record that everybody loved with updated production. But not only is it not going to be the same, but they're just going to get mad shit for it as well from the same people that were asking for it. It's like, well, it's not as good. It's like Jesus, man.

Speaker 2 (00:18:57):

See, that's actually the thing that I think people who say these things to us don't understand is that that record you love was product of a certain time period when the artist was in a certain place, mentally, emotionally, whatever, that it's a moment in time. It's a moment that's never going to come back. So even if they were to record the same notes, it would not feel the same, not the same people anymore. So you can't expect that out of them. And name me one artist through history, musical or otherwise, who has been able to sustain the same type of thing forever through their entire career at the same level of quality, the same level of inspiration. It just doesn't work that way.

Speaker 3 (00:19:49):

Well, two things. One I had heard recently from a producer buddy of mine, his theory is that people should just only be allowed to make four records, which I thought was pretty,

Speaker 2 (00:19:59):

It's not a bad one.

Speaker 3 (00:20:00):

I agree. And then the second thing is, as much as we're talking about it, I've been sort of thinking as we've been speaking about this, how I feel about this, and it honestly doesn't bother me now. I mean, maybe there's a bit of an irritation when people are asking for it, but it doesn't play into it. I don't care. And I guess there's a part of me that sheepishly says that because on some level, I feel like I should care specifically if these are the same people who have been paying my bills for however long, but I just don't

Speaker 2 (00:20:31):

Paying your bills because they love what you do when you're being yourself. So by doing what they want, I mean, maybe it's aligned at times, but

Speaker 3 (00:20:42):

Yeah, it is. I agree. I know. That's a good point. That's a good point. I also think it's funny just along this line and sort of veering to the right or left, depending on your point of view. Recently I played Israel again, and I just get tons of shit for it. You know what I mean? And it's like I don't talk about politics online. I don't talk about religion online. I mean, it's as much as it may appear a fence sitting stance, I am not informed enough to be able to passionately argue much when it comes to these things. Neither

Speaker 2 (00:21:22):

Are most people who would give you shit about it.

Speaker 3 (00:21:24):

Well, this is it, but there's a flip side to that. So first off, yeah, I went to Israel recently as an acoustic thing because I like to travel. It allows me, I got to go to Jerusalem. I got to see a bunch of things that I would never have gone to see had I not had these art summaries. I'm going to go to Singapore and Dubai and all these places. It's just me and an acoustic guitar. I get to travel. And by being there, you're able to see and be more informed, which I think a lot of people don't have the opportunity to do. However, conversely, artists are asked not only to make political stands about where they play or what their music is representing or what have you, but we're also, anytime we do make a political stand, we're told to shut the hell up, shut the fuck up.

(00:22:17):

So it's like, I don't think we can spend a whole lot of time factoring that in. I think you have to be conscious enough to know what your music is directly being aligned with. If a government that was involved with these things were bringing you there, that would be a different story for me. But at the same time, I got a buddy of Fox News that keeps asking me to come back on the show, and as much as I care for the guy, I'm like, man, I'm just not informed enough for this. And it's too polarizing at this point for me to be comfortable with that. And I think in the same way, it's the same sort of entitlement that sometimes as artists, we interpret the audience to have, the audience is demanding that we do something that we're no longer capable of doing, or the audience is demanding that we back something or that our music is aligned with a particular ideology or whatever. No, black and white to any of this stuff, and specifically the issues. So I think as artists, we've just got to kind of let it go because the option is just you're stressing about stuff you can't do anything about. Right?

Speaker 2 (00:23:27):

That's a very wise position. Were you always able to think about it that way? Or is this more of a recent thing? Did you come to this?

Speaker 3 (00:23:36):

Yeah, I've been forced to think about it. I never wanted to think about any of this stuff, man. It seems completely in opposition to the insular nature of what it is that I do. Like I said earlier in the interview, I'm very fortunate I don't take it for granted that I have a career doing this, but as I also mentioned earlier, the genesis of this whole career was ultimately about finding a loophole that I could express myself emotionally as somebody who was highly sensitive. So all of a sudden now people are saying, okay, well, you don't eat meat, so therefore you must align yourself with this, or you don't. Are you pro cannabis or anti-cannabis? And you know what I mean? And I'm just kind of like, I have to come up with something that I think is diplomatic, so I don't come across as rude, but in my head, I'm just like, oh, fuck's sake, man. Lemme just fucking do my shit. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:24:37):

Absolutely. Actually, it's funny. I had recently a guitar player who's pretty well known, hit me up by recently, I mean a year and a half ago or something, but recently enough hit me up on Messenger and was like, you have a big platform now. Why are you not using it for social change? It's like, whoa, what do you mean? He's like, you need to align yourself with this and this movement and try to do some good with your platform because you reach lots of people. It's like, well, actually, I am doing lots of good with my platform. I'm helping people get better at music. Totally. Music's important, the end.

Speaker 3 (00:25:20):

No, no, I agree, man. And I think it's a fine line because if it's something that you came out of the gate intending on using your work to do, that's one thing. But I think what that also requires you to be is informed to the point where you can draw on your conclusions and your arguments in a way that are unequivocal. And if you can't, then you're fueling this sort of constant state of misinformation even more and using your platform to do that. I mean, there's two things that I'd say first off, for example, by having a chance to go to Israel recently and having a chance to talk to people about Palestine and having a chance to go along the Gaza Strip there and seeing Jerusalem and all that, I'm more informed. And that allows me to have a certain amount of growth to my opinions that if I choose to use what I do for any sort of a statement, it at least is coming from a place of firsthand experience.

(00:26:32):

And then second of all, I would say that, well, clearly I still don't know anything about politics, and I hate the idea of having to learn them, and I hate the fact that my work is forcing me to have to learn. But what I would say about using your platform for change and for good, this is the foundation of my point on this particular subject, is I think there's too many people making too much noise and no one's listening to each other. And I think that's a gross generalization, but still, there's a certain amount of,

Speaker 2 (00:27:08):

I think it's pretty accurate,

Speaker 3 (00:27:09):

Overarching truth to that. However, I think that the one way that we can incite change is to be analytical of our own personal growth in a way that we are able to constantly call ourselves out as we grow and try and catch ourselves up on our own shit as we do that, the personal growth that we reflect in our art, I think allows people who are interested in it to become interested in the methodology in which that occurs. And through that, if you change yourself, I think that that's a real tangible way of changing others in a way that is positive. And I mean, if people don't like the ways that you change, it's not like you're again provocative with it. They're just like, no, I don't like that. I'm not interested in that. And there you go, right?

Speaker 2 (00:28:02):

I think you're absolutely right. And actually something I said earlier is right in line with what you're saying about how when I was making the decision to a hundred percent go into this, I actually used yous an inspiration of the way that you were about at least publicly, the way that you were about leaving certain projects behind and moving on to other ones. When I decided that it is time, and it was a pretty tough decision, I actually looked at you's inspiration. And so that's exactly what you're talking about. I think that's how you help people. That's how you create change is by I guess that really cheesy line of being the change. But it's true. I think that's the way you do it. I don't want to preach to anybody about anything. No,

Speaker 3 (00:28:50):

No, no, absolutely, man. Because I don't think anyone will listen. I mean, it's the same when people are asking, we need to go out and protest and all this. I mean, I think there's a certain value to that clearly. And I think there's a need to it in circumstances where those levels of injustice occur. However, again, unless you're informed to the point where you've got an investment in that really, this is my reason to be right now, there's so many things that one could take. You could about save in the whales or Palestine or any of these things. And I mean, I just don't know, man. I just don't have that information or that compulsion for whatever reason. But I do have the compulsion to try and make myself emotionally, spiritually, and physically more healthy. And I think that by doing that, there's certain things that all of a sudden do come into my line and I'm like, this is clearly unacceptable to me now. And up to the point where I had investigated that it was a non-issue, but now that I've done the work internally that navigates me towards my true north or whatever it is, this and this are no longer acceptable. And that becomes part of your work. And I think that's a natural thing, but being bullied into it to a certain extent,

Speaker 2 (00:30:18):

No thanks,

Speaker 3 (00:30:19):

People saying no thanks. And I mean, again, it's like I'm talking about the Israel thing because it was really upsetting to me on some level because the amount of, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know anything about the political situation over there. It's a bunch of people. I got friends over there. It's like

Speaker 2 (00:30:37):

Just doing a show.

Speaker 3 (00:30:38):

I'm doing a show, but the amount of people that were just sending me this horrible stuff is stuff that makes you think clearly, but also things that are just like, if you do this, you're a bad person essentially. And by that point, I had already booked the show, and really it was making me think, which I guess is part of people's agenda just in that sense as well. But at the same time, I didn't pull out of that because I don't know anything about it. I don't know anything about it. And I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 (00:31:15):

Well, honestly, I'm glad you didn't pull out of it. I have family there, so it's not for me to tell artists to go or not to go, but I think when they pull out of it, they're being pussies. So I'm glad you didn't pull out

Speaker 3 (00:31:30):

Talking to a bunch of friends that I have there. I mean, it's clear to me that this is a very complicated and tumultuous scenario. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that there is some really heavy things going on there on both sides, but it was certainly not something that I came into and didn't learn from. And I think that there's a lot of artists and people in general that could use with being educated on a lot of things. I mean, you look at the state of American politics too, and the amount that I remember being on tour as a Canadian band and having American crew and just the amount of dissension politically between certain members of the touring party, all of which are intelligent and decent overall people and friends. And I couldn't help but think, man, everybody's working from their own bias.

(00:32:35):

They're working from their own upbringing and their own points of view and their own, what has hurt them in the past and what they've heard from their friends and what the other people have heard from their friends. And it just seems like it's so complex that what ultimately ends up happening. It's just a lack of dialogue. No one's listening. Everybody's yelling at each other about these facts that they think they're in the know of clearly because they heard it from this website or this person they know that's politically astute or their pastor or something. I'm just like, oh my God, dude. I dunno.

Speaker 2 (00:33:14):

That is actually one of the things that turns me off to the whole thing, whether it's about politics or veganism or whatever. And I will never say where I stand on any of that. I've decided that I will never, ever go there in public on any of these issues. I just won't. But one thing that I will go there about is how stupid people are and how destructive they are by just yelling at each other and not listening to each other. There are so many times that I have changed my mind because I talked to somebody rational and sane and friendly who had different opinions than me who I asked questions of. The questions were coming from genuine curiosity because I didn't agree with them. I wanted to know how this person that I know who's obviously intelligent, who I respect, who does great work, he's always been cool. How does he have this viewpoint that doesn't make any sense to me? How can he think this way? Totally. I am not going to attack him over it because why would I attack him? I want to know why he thinks this way. If this person I respect thinks this way, maybe there's something to it. And

Speaker 3 (00:34:33):

Absolutely,

Speaker 2 (00:34:33):

Sometimes I disagree, but I've definitely had times where people I respect have changed my mind on something that I thought I was very, very, very set on. And vice versa, some of those people that I'm talking about right now that have changed my mind, I've changed their minds about certain things because we talked grownups who respect each other coming from a place of curiosity, really. And from those experiences, it makes me look at this current climate. And so you guys are being really dumb and making this worse by not just talking.

Speaker 3 (00:35:13):

Yeah, I would say less so than stupidity. I think a lot of it just comes from fear. I think a lot of people, fair enough, most of us are just, our concerns are about our immediate wellbeing and that of our family and that of our friends. And when I say bias, going back to a few minutes ago, I think a lot of what we connect to in terms terms of our bias are things that were of emotional significance when we were young, like Christmas or whatever. You had a birthday and that uncle that made you laugh and all this sort of stuff that I think plays into our formative years. Also, we hold onto tooth and dagger when we get older, maybe subconsciously we're like, well, clearly I'm this way politically. And when pressed, it may go back to something like that. And the fear of that being taken away in such a chaotic world, in such a chaotic environment, that one glowing moment of joy that is intrinsically tied to an ideology, having that taken away is you'll fight that to the death a lot of the times. So

Speaker 2 (00:36:26):

I actually think that what you're talking about is an emotional cousin or a parallel to what we were talking about earlier about the way that when you're an artist and it's time to move on to something new, it can be really, really tough. You have to realize that your identity is not what it used to be, and you're not the same person. Well, I think that the same is true for ideas, whether political or lifestyle or religious or whatever. If you have associated yourself emotionally and identity wise with an idea for long enough, changing that means in some way changing yourself, changing your idea of who you are. And that's tough, as we know. That's tough

Speaker 3 (00:37:17):

When It's also tough for the audience too, if they have been utilizing the music as an extension of them trying to either find their identity or just their identity full. I mean, my entire career arc has been littered with crazy fucking interviews, man, I remember years ago, I was like, oh, I'm just going to do a bunch of acid and then I'll do interviews. You know what I mean? Then

Speaker 2 (00:37:42):

Bet that was all I want to see those,

Speaker 3 (00:37:44):

Oh my God. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, you're the mad scientist. And I'm like, oh, shit. And then it's like for a while, because I'll be upfront in the most blunt way that I've been scrambling to try and find my identity throughout all this. So for a while there, I'd be like, I'm the hateful guy now. I'm the positive thinking guy. Now I'm the vegan guy. You know what I mean? And I cycle through these identities publicly because of course, just my nature, considering how intrinsically it's tied to the music when I do interviews, and as you know, every album cycle, hundreds of interviews and the one sheet or whatever, they're like, okay, well, tell me about how this record came together. I was like, okay, well, I went through this experience and that has led me to this, and the conclusions that I drew from it are X.

(00:38:38):

And as a result of that, the records become almost like an essay. It's like you're going through a curriculum at school, and what did I learn at summer camp? Here's the album, right? And each one of those albums, I mean, I've experimented with trying to use a metaphor for that growth to try and make it less precious, make it less pretentious on that level because I'm aware of how narcissistic it comes across. So I would make it into a puppet or some sort of a story or something. But every time you do an album cycle, you have to explain and rationalize yourself. And so that has resulted for me in just years and years of just sometimes batshit crazy moments and also things that are seemingly hypocritical when the next record comes. I remember when I did strapping, I didn't realize at the time that what I was trying to work through at that point was a fear of confrontation.

(00:39:38):

And as children, we were so encouraged, I think, to not display overt displays of emotion. That anger as almost like the big daddy of all those emotions was not tolerated like overt displays of anger. So when I became a teenager and all those things that happened to us as teenagers started to happen to me, I didn't know how to deal with anger. So anytime I saw anger, anytime I saw people being sadistic to each other or cruel or things like this, I had nothing in a reaction to it other than fear. And so with strapping, I thought, okay, well, if I'm just angrier than everybody, then it'll keep it all at bay, and I won't have to confront anybody because in my estimation, knowing how I react to anger, if somebody is angry, I just stay away from them. But what I learned through that was, I think in hindsight, just you drew it to yourself, you're really angry, and then all of a sudden you're just surrounded by really angry people.

(00:40:44):

And so lesson learned, all of a sudden I start seeing this becoming popular, and I'm like, oh, shit. I'm not qualified to exist in this framework without really, really changing my objectives now that I recognize what the hell's going on. So DTP ended up becoming almost like a reaction to that. I'm like, okay, well now I'm going to relegate any creative compulsion that is dark or angry to that of something that is fundamentally bad. And then by the end of DTP, all of a sudden it became this positive thinking, all this sort of stuff. And I started thinking, well, I'm not qualified for this either because a lot of times I'm just in a really shitty mood or I'm really depressed or what have you. But I didn't realize until I got deep into both those projects how much people are willing to buy both of those ideologies. If you can rationalize just unfettered hostility and make a logo out of it, then people are like, oh, okay, well, that's okay then clearly, because it makes money.

Speaker 2 (00:41:53):

There's something about anger, man. There's something that type of energy that just is sticky with people. And you find that online too. People, there's a lot of stats, and it is pretty much fact that the two things, if you want to put out sticky content, either you make porn, but if you're not going to make porn, do something angry. If you really, really want it to spread, do something that either has somebody angry on it or makes everybody else angry. That goes a lot further than comedy. It goes further than anything other than porn, but obviously,

Speaker 3 (00:42:34):

Why do you think?

Speaker 2 (00:42:35):

I think that it comes back to exactly what you were saying. It's an emotion that we are, at least in western culture, I don't know how other ones are about it. I've never been in another. This is what I come from. I know that expressing anger is looked down upon, and there's a lot of things in our lives that will make us angry. And so I think that people are, I don't know, they're just resonating with it. They don't have an outlet for it. And it is the same thing that draws people to metal, but it's a lot more universal than just your musical tastes. It's something that resonates with people who don't just necessarily like metal. Even if you don't like metal, you still get angry. Things in your life still fuck with you. People still piss you off. And whether you're a metal fan or not a metal fan, expressing that anger is something that society teaches you to be very careful with. And I understand you should be careful with that. It can be very destructive.

Speaker 3 (00:43:41):

Well, it's interesting as well, because I think only recently have I started to question anger as not being a fundamentally destructive act as much as just a part of the human experience that can be demonstrated in a number of ways. For example, sarcasm is a way that anger can reveal itself, specifically if you're in an environment that doesn't allow those emotions to just be voiced immediately, somebody's pissed off, as opposed to saying, Hey, man, this is rubbing me the wrong way. Let's get through it. It's culturally almost in some way, maybe more appropriate for people to be like, oh, Mr. Blah, blah, blah over there. You know what I mean? And sort of make it a sarcastic way of getting your point across, and I think in another way, but in a much healthier way, assertion can be the same energy that anger comes from, and therefore, I think you can make metal that is hyper aggressive, but without necessarily having that same toxicity to it, which, although every now and then, I love it. I love listening to things that are just blacker than black in terms of its emotional intent on some level, I guess

Speaker 2 (00:45:02):

Sometimes you just got to go there. You

Speaker 3 (00:45:03):

Do. But I think, I think it's good to go there as long as you recognize what it is that it can do, the cause and effect of it is tangible, right?

Speaker 2 (00:45:15):

Well, it's a very powerful thing. So I think that you're right that it's very, you can express it in non-destructive ways. You can use it even in productive ways, like

Speaker 3 (00:45:27):

Being

Speaker 2 (00:45:27):

Assertive or using it for motivation, but also left unchecked. You can do really, really bad things with it. And so I think that in society, you're taught to err on the side of caution with it. I think that's what it comes from.

Speaker 3 (00:45:43):

Yeah, I agree. I think. But we could also extend that to empathy in a way. I think that the more I've been investigating that concept, and I think I'm less deep into that, but I think that being present for people and being empathetic to other people is a very important trait and something that is clearly not particularly encouraged right now. However, I also think that left unchecked, it can be very detrimental to your own personal growth because you

Speaker 2 (00:46:17):

Absolutely,

Speaker 3 (00:46:18):

You end up being left blown open to people that don't deserve your energy. And it's a fine line, and maybe that's where the assertion comes in. It's like to be empathetic I think is an admirable trait, but to let that go unchecked, you kind of go in into this martyr zone that I don't think serves anybody right?

Speaker 2 (00:46:41):

As an artist, and I'm speaking specifically to what you do, and I'm also thinking about it through my own frame. There's some degree of it that requires you to be selfish, right? Because you kind of have to a huge degree. You kind of have to stick to your own voice and staying true to that. And if you go back to earlier in the conversation, again, the whole thing about people not understanding a change that you're going through and wanting you to stay a certain way because they connect with that earlier thing you did. Well, if you were totally empathetic to that and took on this martyr syndrome that you're talking about, you would never evolve as an artist and never even have the chance to give people something great and new to connect with.

Speaker 3 (00:47:34):

Exactly dude

Speaker 2 (00:47:35):

In the future. So it's a double-sided to a sword or whatever that phrase is.

Speaker 3 (00:47:41):

No, no, no. I get it. And I think a lot of times we're taught as artists that on some level, by making art, well, maybe we're not taught it, but this, we're sort of sold this idea that it's an altruistic thing and being an artist and being a pure artist. But I think that's bullshit too. I think that if you monetize your work, then your objectives are clearly not altruistic. And I think that I find the same thing about religion or anything. It's like as soon as you're making a buck off of it, you've got not only an obligation to your audience if you've been lucky enough to garner one for the sake of the quality that they deserve. And when I say obligation, I mean only in that if you keep making things of lesser and lesser quality, eventually you're just not going to have an audience, right? So there's that obligation. But I think there's also, like you say, astutely man, it's like you have to be able to know where your lines are. If you're the type of character that has had problems with boundaries, if you don't learn that, even if regrettably, it happens publicly, eventually, you're not going to be of any use not only to your audience, but to yourself and your family and everybody else, man, it's all a gray area.

Speaker 2 (00:49:06):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you remember, you already know how amazing it is. At the beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God, Opeth, Shuga, bring Me The Horizon, Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use of your portfolio.

(00:50:08):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering loan, and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and mixed rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy slash enhanced to find out more. It is a gray area, but I think that one thing that I really do believe is that art and music play an intangible, but very important role for society as a whole. I really do believe that, and it's important for the continuation of music and art that artists remain selfish, but it's this weird dichotomy because at the same time, it's for everybody else, but it's for you, I guess, at the inception of it.

Speaker 3 (00:51:38):

Well, it's a balancing act, and yes, I do agree, and it's only been recently strangely enough that I have come to the conclusion that I as well think that music is a very important thing for society. For a while there, I thought it was just a superfluous thing. Same here. But I also think that coming to that conclusion, it also brings about this sort of internal sense of accountability with it, and that is that fine line that we're speaking of as well. Because yes, we need to be selfish, but if you're selfish to the point of cutting off your own ear and shitting in a bucket and painting on the wall or whatever you thing that you end up doing is, I think that you lose the connection with other people because ultimately what I think drives people to music is something they can relate to. It's a moment of emotional significance that an artist has that is beyond them, that then they're able to, through their bias, interpret in a way that other people recognize truth in, and the truth that the people see is something that they can relate to. And if you're selfish to the point where you're unrelatable, then it's like it's also a trap. I think so.

Speaker 2 (00:52:54):

But is that just luck of the draw in some ways that

Speaker 3 (00:52:58):

Your voice, for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:52:59):

If your voice is a voice that resonates with lots of people,

Speaker 3 (00:53:02):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:53:03):

If you're being true to yourself, then that is kind of luck of the draw.

Speaker 3 (00:53:06):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:53:07):

Your true voice might be one that has no connection to anybody else, unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (00:53:13):

No, this is a really good point. But I guess ultimately that's where the monetization becomes the crux of this. I think that if your objectives are to make a living through music, you have to have a compromise. If your objectives are not to do that, then I think at that point, you're free to go in whichever direction you want, but both you and I on some degree rely on what it is that we do to feed our families. And I think that being selfish to the point of obliviousness to how your work affects others, if you monetize it, then you're really rolling the dice, man. Because if you make a ton of money saying, fuck everything, then I think there's a cause and effect to that. I'm not talking about karma, I'm just talking about a cause and effect, right? So it is luck of the draw. If you are someone like singer from Nickelback who is being himself, and that has resonated with a lot of people, that's luck of the draw. I mean, if your objectives are money, I mean, that's very fortunate, right? But I dunno, man,

Speaker 2 (00:54:33):

I'm glad you brought him up. I wanted to talk to you about him. But yeah, keep going.

Speaker 3 (00:54:37):

Yeah, no, I think what I would say as a cve to everything I say is I am so lost, man, but happily so. Aren't we all? Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:54:49):

I actually went to watch Joe Rogan live in his last comedy tour, and at the very, very end, he said something about we thanked the crowd and said something to the effect of, his whole life is just a dream and it's fucking crazy. I get to do this. I have no idea where it's going. And I really, really related to that. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:55:13):

No, I like him, man. I like him a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:55:16):

Yeah, me too. I actually think that what he's done is really, really significant, and we're going to see, we're going to understand just how significant it is in the next 20 or 30 years, but I really think that because of his podcast, intellectualism is now cool. If I think back to when I was a teenager, it was cool to make yourself seem dumb. It's weird. It was not cool to be into things that made you think only the weird kids were into that stuff. But now, through podcasting becoming so huge, and a lot of that is as a result of his podcast, he was one of the first, he's the biggest. He's the guy that started bringing all these intellectuals, scientists, and along with the movie stars and the rock stars and the famous fighters, he was the one who started mixing those people in there and helping all these intellectuals go to mass market. And I think that kids growing up now have access to this in a way that we never did. And it wasn't even cool when we were growing up. It was actually, if you were into that stuff, it was looked down upon. So I actually think that what he's doing is really, really significant to the evolution of society. And anyone who thinks that what I'm saying is funny, just wait 20 years, I am convinced.

Speaker 3 (00:56:45):

No, I agree with you. I agree with you, man. And I think the thing that makes it so engaging for people is he asks questions from the point of view of somebody who doesn't know. So he's able to not only communicate with these people who are vastly superior thinkers to most of us, but he's also able to understand it enough to ask the questions that when he's asking them, I think to myself, oh, yeah, that's something that I would've wanted to know.

Speaker 2 (00:57:15):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:57:16):

It's not in a language that is so obtuse that I'm just lost. He's like, well, that doesn't make any sense to me. Can you explain that further? Still doesn't make any sense to me. Can you explain it further? And then as a result of that, these concepts that are typically sort of out of reach for most of us are made palatable. And there's been a bunch of times where I'll be cleaning up the studio and I just put on his channel, let it roll, and out of my peripheral, I'm all of a sudden privy to something that I would've never have sought out. Right.

Speaker 2 (00:57:52):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:57:53):

I think you're absolutely right, man. And I think it's funny as well how I think he, more than anybody, is surprised by its success.

Speaker 2 (00:58:01):

And that's also back to the if what you are doing happens to be the thing that resonates with everybody, that's that part is luck of the draw. The part that's not luck of the draw is doing over a thousand episodes and grinding like crazy. It's funny, one of the criticisms that I've seen about him is a lot of people will say that he's stupid, which I think is really, really not the case, but they say that he's not as smart as his guests or something. But I actually kind of think that's the point. And I think that until you've talked to a super genius, you don't know how dumb you really are, and the ability to get one of these super geniuses to communicate in a way that makes sense to normal people at the middle of the bell curve, that is unbelievable because these people that are at the very, very top of the bell curve, they don't talk like normal people. They don't think normal people, and they're usually in their own little worlds discovering stars and inventing rockets and stuff. They're not like the rest of us, and the ability to bring their information down to earth, it's a big thing, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:59:17):

Well, it's interesting as we're talking about this and you're saying if your particular, I forget how you phrased it, but your particular way of interpreting your artistic motivations resonates with a lot of people. Then That's luck of the draw, but also conversely, what happens if someone's trip resonates with a lot of people and they're not qualified to handle that? You look at Kurt Cobain or any of these people, and they're all of a sudden in the crossfire of this, at that point, I think inadvertently they become a martyr for it.

Speaker 2 (00:59:51):

That's bad luck of the draw, I guess.

Speaker 3 (00:59:53):

I guess, right? That's the best way to describe it. Yeah. But you see that, and I mean, I think on some level, as I get older, I just hit 47 the other day, which is happy birthday, which is great. Thanks, man. So I'm almost over the hill, which is great because it makes it much easier to let it go. I think I was aware throughout my career that if it had ever gotten really successful, I just didn't have the mental fortitude to handle it. If strapping had taken that next step, or even if DTP had gone to the next step being what it was without me having gone through the lessons that I think I needed to learn from either of those things, I think I would've just been a total casualty of it. So fortunately it didn't take that step, and maybe there's a certain amount of sabotage that went into that on my front as well, but God, I would've hated that man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):

I've only experienced a very, very small percentage of what it's like to take that step. It's a very intense thing to be in a position where you are taking in so many people's energy all the time, dude, expectations,

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):

Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):

Yeah, it's like being bombarded with, and again, back to what we've been saying, the people expect something of you when you're out there as an artist. Your audience has expectations. Society has an expectation out of you. And look, I do think that it's great. People shouldn't complain if they have the chance to do their art for a living. However, that's not to say that there's not insane challenges with it. And one of the challenges of being successful is that you are, it's like under constant bombardment of other people. It is like you're getting drawn and quartered by their desires

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):

As we go. Add that to the list of things that you're not allowed to complain about as an artist. You know what I mean? But I, I've been a broken record about it, but only because it really affected me in a way that I have a hard time not talking about. And that's a singer from Nickelback who I became acquaintances with on this last run and had the opportunity to spend a bunch of time with, you know what I mean, at his place and whatever. And I mean, we're acquaintances. It's not like we call each other up and he's a good guy and he let me in and he helped me out with a couple things. That's kind of where the relationship started and ended in a lot of ways. But the thing that really floored me was completely separate from that. The thing that really floored me was being in the presence of somebody's life, who the luck of the draw favored. You know what I mean? And I recognized through that. I'm like, I couldn't do this. I can't do this. The level in which this type of existence functions at is at a point where completely not unhealthy is, doesn't even scratch the surface of what it would be for me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):

He seems very put together. I don't know him, but he seems like a pretty put together dude, at least on the surface, considering not just the level of success, but the level of hate he's had to endure.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):

I mean, I think the thing that I took from him is he's an alpha. And that's something that I think is also a prerequisite for that. I often, when I go to a place or if I go to a party or if I go to a ceremony or something, I just don't want to be seen. I don't want to go out. I don't want to go to the guy's, my friend's bands coming to town. I'll come see them before the show. I don't want to go to the show. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't want to be up past 10 o'clock at night.

(01:04:03):

If you're going to have a couple of beers, I'd be out by 11. You know what I mean? It's like that's where I'm at. The intensity of just being at a gig is too much for me. Same here. So my job has required a lot of self-analysis. Right now I'm on just this next step of where it's at, but it's required a lot of self-analysis, not because I like to think, at least not because I'm just an irretrievable narcissist, but just I got a family. I've got responsibilities, I've got a business. And in order for that to not fall by the wayside, I got to keep my shit together man. And it's like the inability to tune out energy is one of the primary things that's going to keep my shit from being together. So when I meet someone like that, and I've met a lot of people like that that are the alphas in the industry, the ones that are at the show every night, they're at the show. As soon as they come in the room, they're there. They're the ones that skeet shooting off the balcony at four in the morning, all this sort of stuff. It's like

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):

Cory that

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):

Don't think Exactly. Exactly. So is Chris Jericho, of course. And it's like these people who are all stars are like, that's why they're able to be that. I mean, I've never met Corey, I've never met the guy, but it's like, here's a guy, from what I can tell is a massive success is into the spotlight and has got no problems at all with being public.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):

I've met him three times and the three times that I met him, it was like, okay. I mean I always liked his bands anyways, but that aside, when I met him and hung out with him those three different times, years apart, I'm sure he doesn't remember, but it was like, okay, I understand why this guy is where he's at.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):

Exactly what happened with me and Chad.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):

Oh, that is pretty funny. But his energy is just, it takes over the room and he loves it, obviously.

Speaker 4 (01:06:07):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):

He embodies it. It is what he is. How does that even work? It's a special type.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):

I can't even, well see. That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):

It's a special type.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And it's like anybody that we've met that is, that seem to be cut from a similar cloth where not only they are they okay with it, but they are it flourish. They are it. Exactly, man. And then I started thinking in accordance to that situation, which just on a selfish level, I'm thinking, wow, the amount of times where I've thought maybe I should write a commercial record because that's how you become popular like that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):

That's not how you do it. You have to be one of those people. It's not how you

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):

Do it. You got to be one of those people.

(01:06:49):

Exactly. I had no idea, dude. I had no idea. I always had assumed up to that meeting naively that it was a choice. And then, yeah, dude, I was just like, holy shit, this isn't a choice. This is, that's who this guy is. That's who the singer from any of these massive bands. I'm sure I remember seeing, I talked to somebody who was in a room with Bruce Dickinson and said, he's the same way. He's like, of course he is, dude. But I had no idea. I always was under the assumption maybe selfishly, that all artistic temperament was basically cut from that same sort of self-analytical cloth and then to be aware of, it's like, well, that's why these people are massive stars. Because you give 'em a stage and they're clamoring to get on it to tell jokes. Whereas maybe you and I are like, holy fuck, where's the exit man? I can't wait to get out of here. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):

Yeah. The outliers are like the Kurt Cobain example where that in my opinion, is just kind of a fluke where the timing of his whole thing happened. It perfectly, it just right time, right place in history, wrong person for it. And that's the end result is tragic. But I think that that's an outlier situation. I think that there's a mold for a star, and it's the same with movie stars. It's the same with star politicians. It's rock stars. They are a certain type of person. Anyone who doesn't believe that hasn't spent enough time around these types of people, they are as true to that as you are to what you do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):

See, this is exactly my point that I was trying to make in terms of the interviews that I was sort of struggling with when I've been talking about Chad, what you just said was what I was trying to express. And for whatever reason, that was an epiphany for me, had no, I mean, it seems hilarious in hindsight, even talking to you about this, it's, it seems hilarious that that was such a shocker. But dude, I had no idea. I was like, dude, you are just being you. That is all this is. But you are permanently on fire. You know what I mean? And when you meet somebody who's running at 11 constantly, I'll have a night of nine and be done for a week and a half. And I think, yeah, man, even just talking about it now, I have more thoughts and insights on it and just how obvious this is, right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):

I've heard that speaker, Gary V is like that as well. I dunno if you're familiar with him, but a lot of

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):

I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):

Well, he's an investor entrepreneur who runs this huge marketing firm but also became a public speaker because of a Ted Talk that just went viral. He's pretty funny and the way he delivers things. But I know people who have been around him who were just like, it's not an act. That guy is on 11 all day. It's like being next to a nuclear generator, basically.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):

Yes, dude. And it's like, I think most people see this and see these people's lives and the yachts and the planes and all that, and people just want the stuff. You know what I mean? They're just like, but what I realized in my associations with anybody who seems to be along that line or wealthy in that way is it's like that's what comes with that personality.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):

It's the byproduct.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):

It is. I don't think you can ru the fact that that's not part of your life. I think you've just got to accept that in order for you to be happy, you just don't get that stuff. And if you had it, the cost of what it would entail for you to get it would be something you wouldn't be able to handle, so therefore you wouldn't be able to enjoy it. So it's an abstraction. It's like it was after that experience in a way where I started thinking, oh, I've got too much stuff. You know what I mean? I don't need half of what I have. I don't need a bigger car. I don't need a better car. I don't need more guitars, God forbid. You know what I mean? I want to be able to maintain what I have, and it made me strangely happier with what I had to see somebody with so much more because I realized just like you said, man, that's what the byproduct of that is. And if that's not what you are, man, don't stress about it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):

There's a truth to the idea that money will not make you happy, but it's more, I mean, there's a point where not having it will make you unhappy, but when you're talking about those levels of wealth and success and I guess stuff, having stuff that's not going to make your life better or worse, it's just going to reflect who you are really and what you've done in the world. But it's not, Chad isn't who he is because of that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):

Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):

That stuff like what car he has is not the reason that he is at 11 all the time. The reason he has the car because he's at 11 all the time. Exactly. He's not at 11 all the time to get the car.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):

Yeah, no, dude. Exactly. And it seemed like such an obvious thing in hindsight, but it just blew me away, man.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):

Well, it's the same way that, man, I'm sure you know this, but we've all seen when bands have tried to do the commercial record like you were talking about, or local bands who aren't that good who try to do, they go to the studio, that's way too expensive. They hire this person to work with them. They try to get that management firm that has handled this and this and that person and they check off all the boxes, but it just doesn't work and it will never work because they don't have that thing. And that thing is not something that you can develop. It's just there. You can develop your skills, you can develop your strategy, you can develop your product, you can develop all these different things, but you can't develop who you are born as.

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):

No, exactly, dude. And I think that it's that whole real recognize real thing. I think a lot of times the people who are in the industry that are looking for that, it's clear as day from a very early time who their sites are going to be on that are able to not only be that character who's on 11, but also be astute enough to know how to manage that. So it, how do you funnel that 11 into just multiple businesses and multiple excursions into different musical or artistic paths? I think for the rest of us, I think a lot of it, what it leads us doing is just going, well, what's wrong with me? How come what I do doesn't result in that? And I think it was only recently where I came to the conclusion, I was like, are you kidding me, dude? You think you can handle that? Because you can't. That's not what you're cut out to do, man.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):

And there's nothing wrong with you if you're not that person.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):

In fact, there's much more right with you upon recognition of that because focusing on the things that you aren't as opposed to the things that you are, is going to compromise your art ultimately.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):

Absolutely. And if you are true to your art and yourself and follow that, I firmly believe that you don't need that level of success to be happy. Like you said, if you achieve that level of success and you're not cut out for it, it's going to destroy you much the way that lottery winners typically destroy themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):

Absolutely. Dude, that's actually a great analogy.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):

Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you about Chad actually was I saw that you had worked with him. And one thing that's kind of funny is, first of all, I never got on the Nickelback hate bandwagon. I don't hate bands, I just don't, don't listen to 'em. I don't like them. But I've always respected their ability to do what they do, even if it's not my thing. They do what they do, obviously in a way that works beyond works. But the one thing about them that you cannot argue about is that their productions sound incredible. They have had, oh

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):

Dude, their

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):

Mixes have been just, oh my God, groundbreaking. Incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):

And so running a production school, we always reference those mixes. We always talk about those mixes as like, that's the pinnacle of rock or hard rock or commercial metal mixing that is,

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):

It

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):

Just doesn't get better than their mixes. So I've always had a funny, I guess I've gotten into some hate for it from certain people. It's like, you just don't get it. Their product is incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):

Oh yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):

And just on a technical mixing level, it's like, oh

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):

Dude, it's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):

Yeah, it's insanely good.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):

Well, the Dark Horse album, so it was all done in Vancouver, and a bunch of my friends worked on it. A buddy of mine, Scott, who had worked, we had worked together for years, but he ended up getting a good name for himself and he engineered that whole album and went through the whole process with them and Lan and everything that was involved with it. But yeah, man, it's the benchmark in a lot of ways. But also, and this is something that I've had to come to terms with in the same way those mixes work because the music is written around that too. Absolutely. It's like that tempo where the snare can ring out and where the low end can bloom and not get in the way of, and the guitar bass and drums. But it's small in the pre chorus and it's big in the chorus. Who else I think is good at that? And this is as a bit of a sideline, but I like not the recent one, but the one before that five Finger death Punch. Did I think it was Corey? No, Kevin Chico that did that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was definitely Kevin.

Speaker 3 (01:17:26):

It's like it's not as big in the low end, but it's still a really good commercial rock mix, man.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):

The C Chicos were basically good friends with them. And Kane, his son, has been on Nail the Mix several times and had Kevin on the podcast, and they both came to the URM summit, which is our in-person event. We know them, and I think that they're one of those families that's just like something was in the water in their house. Yeah, totally. But they have a very specific Chico Radio sound. They do the shit they do sounds great on the radio, just it really does, man. I don't know what it is, but maybe Kevin coming up through Mutt Lang has something to do with it, I'm sure that I'm sure has something to do with it, but they just get it. And Five Finger, it's a similar thing with me as Nickelback. That's not what I'm going to go listen to if I feel like listening to music that's going to speak to me, however, that is insanely well done for what it is.

(01:18:38):

How sometimes you'll get these metal guys that are like, I don't like it, but I respect it. Kind of like the politically correct thing to say. That's not how I mean what I'm saying. It's beyond that. It's not just respect. I admire when something is that well done. I have admiration for it. And I actually think that the Zoltan, the guitar player who's kind of the brains behind that band is one of those on 11 people, but he's one of the smartest people I've ever met. And so I know that everything about that music is designed to sound amazing. And so yes, Kevin Chico is part of that equation too. Obviously his mixes are great, but from inception, everything about that product, I'm going to call it a product, is designed to hit your speakers and hit the audience in a certain way. There's no accident, just like I know that with Nickelback, there's no accident.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):

No,

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):

They are just being themselves, but there's no accident there.

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):

A lot of time people view that lack of accident as being premeditated in a way that seems disingenuous, but no way. I'm guilty of feeling that. But no, I now absolutely agree with you, man. And I just actually met Zoltan online the other day. It's the first time I talked to each other and I told him, and I mean, it's another one of those bands where you say that you like them and people get all sort of elitist about it. But at 47, man, I mean, when I'm on tour, I have to exercise. I have to, it's like as a singer, I have to exercise. And it's not that I'm ever going to be ripped, but I mean, dude, it's like it's so easy for me to get out of shape that I have to exercise. And when I do, I really like listening to that band. I think it sounds great, man. And you know what I mean? It's something that I enjoy listening to while I'm exercising and told him such. And I think I'm not the only one that feels that way, clearly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):

No, definitely not. Another time that I realized this recently was, so we just had a Fallout Boy on now the Mix, and I've actually kind of always liked them. I've always thought that, and I'm not a huge pop punk fan or anything, but I've always thought that they's something really great about their melodies, and they're a singer, agreed to do the podcast. And I actually flew to LA for it, and we talked for two hours. It was one of those situations. It's actually a great episode. The whole concept of this is not an accident was so clear to me again, but that guy is a hundred percent a musician, a hundred percent a composer. He just loves what he's doing. And what is really, really smart about that band is that the singer realized that he's not that guy that's on 11, the bass player is.

(01:21:37):

So they pushed the bass player as the star and it worked. Yeah, it's so smart. He's the guy, the singer is the guy who just wants to write all day, every day, just write music, and he's great at it. We talked about orchestration and all kinds of stuff that you would never think that the guy from Follow-Up Boy was into, but he's into it. And they figured out that the Star was the bass player, and so they just had him be the front man, which is a non-traditional way of going about it. But they recognized this thing that is so true that getting to that level of success requires a personality that is a certain way, and if you're not that way, it's not going to work. But there's no rule that says it has to be the singer. That's what they showed the world, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):

Interesting. And as devil's advocate, I'll throw this out. I think what, unless you're very careful in a scenario like that, it can be misrepresented by that alpha person's agenda. Like if artistically, say there's someone like you or I who just write, and that's what our agenda is, but we're not particularly fan of being in the spotlight or don't want to be on 11 all the time, or can do it, but need to recover whatever our scenario is. But then you elect somebody else to be that at some point, I know I would resent it. I would resent that the face of it becomes something that is disconnected from what the source of it is. Maybe in their situation it's different because it's more of a commercial slant to begin with.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):

Well, I actually think it's the bass player who selected him to do it. I think the bass player recognized that he didn't have the talent, I guess as a writer, singer, whatever, to do that. But he had the vision, so he selected a guy. They selected a guy who could lead them musically. And it happened to be a guy who has less than zero interest in the spotlight. And I totally do agree with you that it could lead to resentment, but I think that in this case, it clearly doesn't. It was really clear to me that it doesn't, from when I talked to him,

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):

I wonder if the clown cat, Sean from Slipknot is similar.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):

I wouldn't, wouldn't be surprised. I would not be surprised.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):

It seems like he's got a vision for what the band has done. And I dunno, man, this whole conversation is interesting, me just because it makes me even more aware of what as artists we should be focused on. And I think that knowing your limitations is something that is not encouraged enough. I think society, specifically Western Society, teaches us that we can do anything. We can be anything. And if you don't end up being a billionaire or whatever, that's your own failing as opposed to maybe you're just not cut out for that. And I think that conversely, I think if we were as artists taught more to really understand what it is that is going to make us happy fundamentally, and then pursue that artistically, I think it would be better just for the scene in general. You wouldn't have people, like you say, your friends band trying to get the right producer and the right manager and then ultimately end up scratching their heads as to why they're broke and angry. You know what I mean? Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):

Well, I think that the lesson is that if you do want to monetize it and you do want to get to that level, I think the lesson is that if you are not the star type, then the sooner you realize that is, the sooner that you can go finding that person to work with. And I think that Sean from Slipknot, he had to have realized that because Corey is the definition of a natural rockstar.

Speaker 4 (01:25:38):

But

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):

Obviously Sean's the dude who's had that vision artistically for what the band would do, clearly. I mean, they don't hide it. And he's always been very forward about it. And he has had no problem just being the clown guy who hits things. He's got no issue with that. I think it's his vision. But if he tried to be the front man, I just don't think that it would've worked.

Speaker 3 (01:26:04):

Well, I think that awareness of your limitations, that's a perfect example of what I was just actually even alluding to is him saying, listen, I'm okay with this. I'm okay with putting that part of me aside, my need for that aside. So it can be overall a success. I mean, not only is that commendable, but I think that's very rare. So I'm reading a book right now called 21 Lessons for the 21st Century, and the author's name is Yuval Yuval, Noah Harri, I think it was. And he's talking, basically it's talking about how artificial intelligence and in some ways how that will change society. And it sort of looks, I think in general at why liberalism is suffer suffering right now. And one of his points that I thought was really interesting, because I talked to somebody else who had read it was he said, eventually algorithms will be able to determine what is going to be good for you emotionally.

(01:27:09):

This is his theory, or this is his hypothetical situation. It's like maybe there's algorithms that will determine based on your genetic history, that although you want to be a rockstar, maybe you would actually be really happy being a plumber. And this is the ways in which this algorithm can actually help society is, as opposed to people following these goals and then ending up in these really destructive and negative and unfulfilled lifestyles. They can do something which on the surface seems much more mundane, yet ultimately they get a quality of life that is much higher. And I think it's framed almost in a sense, this is one of the downfalls of one of the threats.

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):

I think it's a benefit.

Speaker 3 (01:27:54):

I think so too. I was talking to a couple of friends. That's good thing. Me too.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):

Okay. So I feel like the reason URM is working is because I have expertise of having been in a band that did it, having done the production thing, having had gone to Berkeley, having had the dad that I've had my whole life led to a place where I have the expertise to start a school. However, in some ways, let's just say that I had the same level of expertise 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I wish there was an algorithm that told me to not pursue the rockstar thing and just, fuck

Speaker 3 (01:28:29):

Yeah, dude,

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):

Try to start a business.

Speaker 3 (01:28:31):

Fuck yeah, man. I mean, I think if there's an overarching anxiety to what I do in my career is because it keeps shifting. I feel that I'm just an incredibly slow learner, and that when I finally figure out what it is that I want to do, I'm just going to be in my sixties sometime just being like, oh shit, I should

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):

Have been plumber. Finally, figure out what you want to do. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:28:52):

Man,

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):

That's amazing. It's amazing you say that, but I totally understand.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):

Yeah, man. And I think that my anxiety a lot of times comes from the fact, and a lot of my self-deprecation as well, comes from the fact that I'm aware of that. I'm like, don't tell me that you're going to go through this song and dance again, man. You're going to do some stupid musical counterpart to some epiphany that you feel you've made, that you then end up trumpeting through interviews for the next two years about how you feel. You've finally figured it out, and this is the direction you should be going.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):

Amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:29:29):

And then all of a sudden, then a year later, you're just like, oh, oh. You know what I mean? You're like, now that I've dipped my toe into this, I realized I really don't like this. And that's what just keeps happening.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):

That's so funny.

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):

It's true, man.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):

I know. It's true. That's why I am, it's frustrating as I can relate.

Speaker 3 (01:29:51):

Yeah, man. And then whenever it happened, I think this is going back to recently, I've taken a real step back from social media just because the amount of things that I say that have been like that where I'm just unequivocally convinced of whatever direction it is that I feel I'm going, and then I make a big deal out of it, and then I change my mind. And then there's people that are giving you shit about it, or blabber mouth puts up some thing, or you've said some stupid thing. And then I struggle with self-confidence and always have to a certain extent, and that does nothing but compound that where every time you turn on your computer, you're like, oh my God, I'm a fucking idiot. This is ridiculous. So

Speaker 4 (01:30:33):

What

Speaker 3 (01:30:34):

I have found recently is by stepping back from it a bit, I see some things that I've said that come up on blabber mouth or I see some things that I've done. I did some shitty performance that comes up on YouTube, but just by not looking at the comments and not reading it and not participating in what I say, strangely enough, life just goes on. You know what I mean? It's not like things came grind to a halt like your anxiety thought they would. It's just something that happened, move on.

Speaker 2 (01:31:04):

Well, I think that feeling of things might come grinding to a halt. I think there's a flip side to where it's probably a good thing to feel a little bit of that because keeps you hungry and motivated to a degree, I think. True, true.

(01:31:23):

I'm friends with Blasco plays base for Ozzie. He's had a very successful career, and he's told me that the whole thing has felt like a house of cards the whole time. And I mean, the guy's been in the biggest bands in the world for 20 or 25 years now. He still feels like it's a house of cards, but he's one of the hardest workers I've ever met. And that's kind of part of what keeps him winning is that he knows it could all go away. So I think that there's a level of that to where it's healthy, but also I think that in the music industry, we're taught to get really, really turn things into emergencies that aren't emergencies and to get real dramatic about shit that doesn't matter and that isn't really going to cause things to stop. And I noticed this, this was one of the reasons I wanted to stop being in a band. It was driving me insane, that anxiety that's caused by everybody freaking out about every little thing. And it's not just comments. It's not just comments. It's about a bunch of different things. There's always some five alarm fire going on about something that doesn't even matter.

Speaker 3 (01:32:35):

So fucking exhausting. And it's that house of cards thing. It's like, could you imagine how that would be compounded if we had made a million dollars somewhere along the line, or, yes, a million is reasonable. Let's talk about, say you've made a hundred million dollars and you had some windfall. You had a song, you had a, how you remind me that made you 200 million bucks or whatever, and you bought six houses that are 10 million bucks each or something crazy. You know what I mean? The stress of that would be so undesirable of just thinking, this is all going to go, maybe you broke up with your long-term relationship and you've got a bunch of 22-year-old girls that are conditional in terms of their relationship. They're certainly not into you for your 55-year-old bod. You know what I mean? They're there because you are able to provide something that is really what their agenda is based on maybe, right.

(01:33:40):

Man, it would all go away. The stress of that shit going away, man, fuck that dude. I would much rather just be like, you know what I feel like doing today? I'm going to do this artistically, and as long as I'm going at it from the point of view of this means something really important to me and something really tangible to me, then there's a good chance that the audience, some portion of it will also relate, and that's enough to pay the bills that if I am rational about how I structure my life, that dude any day.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):

But there's still a little bit of that because the thing that could go away is that food on the table for the kids. So I think within reason, it's good to have a little bit of that stress. It keeps you going.

Speaker 3 (01:34:25):

No, you're right. You're right. But it would be nice to not have it to be fair.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):

Yeah. So I guess that's where it becomes complicated, because to not have that stress of the kids going away, I mean, not the kids, the food on the table going away, you do need that kind of money, but if you have that kind of money, then you have that stress of that money going away.

Speaker 3 (01:34:47):

Good point. Good point, man. Maybe it's just, it's about managing that stress so it's not at a point where it's becoming a total all consuming liability. I think the quote that I heard recently, which I thought was great about money, is someone said, I just want to have enough money to not have to say no to the guacamole. I always thought that was like, that makes perfect sense. Right?

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):

It does.

Speaker 3 (01:35:08):

But no, you're right. And anytime I've had no work whatsoever, say there's no pressure whatsoever, I just get bored. And I think that I romanticize that as if I would just be totally fine being bored, but

Speaker 2 (01:35:22):

I seriously doubt that you'd be okay with that.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):

Yeah, man. I think you're right. I think my life up to this point, the stimulus that I've become accustomed to be frank is such that if I just stopped, I would just start doing heroin or something.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):

I mean, do you think about retiring or anything really retiring, the traditional retirement idea of basically an endless vacation, is that a goal of yours?

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):

Well, I think if I had enough money to just constantly travel and treat myself well, I mean, yeah, that sounds awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):

But do you think that you would lose your mind after about two or three weeks?

Speaker 3 (01:36:02):

Well, I wouldn't stop writing

Speaker 2 (01:36:04):

And

Speaker 3 (01:36:04):

I wouldn't stop recording.

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):

No, no. I mean retiring. Oh,

Speaker 3 (01:36:07):

No, no, no, no way. No way. No way. I mean, at two times now in my life and career, I had thought that that was an option. That music was optional for me. And so I just tried to stop, and it manifests in really terrible ways. I have resolved to the thought that yes, I'm an artist, and yes, I'm a musician, and as a result of that, it's intrinsically tied in with my trip. But I would love to be able to do that without any pressure from anybody. That is certainly a goal. If I could spend, I think the biggest concern that I've had recently is it's like in order to keep food on the table, I have to be more productive than I'm comfortable with lately. So if I had enough capital to spend 10 years making something, yeah, absolutely. I would love to do that, man. Love to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):

That sounds like a lot of capital. It does, doesn't it? Yeah. Just spend 10 years.

Speaker 3 (01:37:08):

Yeah. So therefore, I think it's like,

Speaker 2 (01:37:12):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:37:13):

Yeah, it's not going to happen. But I mean, if somebody said, would you like that to happen? I would say yes, clearly.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):

Fair enough. But I mean, you also said that the actual traditional idea of retirement's not for you, what I meant was just when people stop working at their career, they stop. But that seems really frightening to me, and I dunno, that seems terrifying. I think I would lose my mind.

Speaker 3 (01:37:40):

I would too. You're right. You're absolutely right. But you know what? Just as we're speaking here, I also feel like it's really important for me to say that, dude, I got a great scene happening. You know what I mean? I'm really happy. Everything that I need for me to make work for myself is within my power. I don't have to do things that I don't want to do within limits. I'm now a free agent, so I can just hire whoever is appropriate for what it is that I need to do. I can tour in whichever capacity that I need to. For example, I've just been doing acoustic runs over the past couple of months. It's me, an acoustic guitar, merch guy, front of house tm, and the overhead is zero. There's no catering backstage. That's

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):

Beautiful,

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):

Dude. It's great. And it's like I decided the other month, I was like, I want to go see India. I've never been to India. So I booked a show in Delhi and I booked a show in Mumbai and it paid for the trip. You know what I mean? So as much as I say, oh, I would love to have enough capital to spend 10 years making a record, under no circumstances would I claim to be dissatisfied with where I'm at in life at all, man. I just want to make that clear.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):

Oh, but I didn't think you were implying that at all. What's interesting about that style of touring is it's a lot like the way that comedians tour. I always wondered how cool that must be. It's just them a microphone and a merch guy and maybe one other person. Maybe. That sounds so awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:39:20):

I wonder if I found, I got a little bored of my own trip, and I found I went in inward a little much. You know what I mean? You have that much time on your own, and it's the tendency for the wheels to sort of spin is such that I think you can benefit from a little more social engagement and with friends, not just the audience, but people that will tell you that you're full of shit. You know what I mean? To have somebody with you that is able to say, dude, you need to stop thinking about this stuff right now. You know what I mean? Is I think something that would probably happen with comedians. Definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):

They talk about that. They talk about how if you're not careful, some of them, at least, if you're not careful, it can get dark out there.

Speaker 3 (01:40:10):

This is what I would fear, man.

Speaker 2 (01:40:11):

But it can get dark out there when you're on a package tour too,

Speaker 3 (01:40:15):

And it can get dark out there when you're hyper aware of certain tendencies within your band mates that begin to drive you crazy over time too. Right. That's a good point. But hey man, I should probably start wrapping it up pretty quick. I got my kid coming home from school and I got to get a couple other things done, but it's been really great talking to Buddy. Really great talking to you.

Speaker 2 (01:40:36):

Absolutely. I really, really appreciate you taking the time, and it's been great talking to you as well. And thank you for coming on.

Speaker 3 (01:40:45):

Yeah, man. I think we have more in common than I assume.

Speaker 1 (01:40:48):

The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Jay-Z microphones. For over a decade, JayZ microphones has combined all the critical elements of world-class microphone manufacturing, patented capsule technology, precision electronics, and innovative industrial design. JayZ microphones, deep understanding of technology is informed by their open-minded, innovative approach. Trust us, sound can be glorious recorded. For more info, please go to JayZ mike.com to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact. Visit urm.academy and press the podcast link today.