BLASKO: The business of touring, artist branding, and why musicians need a side hustle

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine broadcast, brought to you by Jay-Z microphones. For over a decade, Jay-Z microphones has combined all the critical elements of World Press, microphone manufacturing, patented capsule technology, precision electronics, and innovative industrial design. Jay-Z microphone's deep understanding of technology is informed by their open-minded, innovative approach. Trust us, sound can be glorious recorded. For more info, please go to JayZ mike.com. And now your host,

Speaker 2 (00:00:34):

Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyal Levi and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like Lama God, Ms. Suga, periphery A Day To Remember, bring me the Horizon, opec many, many more, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multi-tracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Before we get into the show, I want to tell you about a brand new product we just launched the Complete Beginner's Guide to Recording Rock and Metal.

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(00:03:27):

So for more info, just reach out to [email protected] for details. That's d [email protected]. Alright, here it goes. I will shut up now. Alright, welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast today my guest is an old friend at this point, I've known you for about 12 years now, but Blasko is a manager, marketing specialist and musician that has over 20 years of making badass shit happen in the music world. He's worked with some of the biggest names in the music business between playing and managing and educating and just several entrepreneurial ventures. Some of his credits or achievements or accomplishments include playing bass for Ozzy, Rob Zombie Danzig, managing Black Veil Brides, and Andy Black managing Zach Wilde, just to name a few. In the early two thousands, he became the bass player for Ozzy as well as founded Mercenary Management, a company that has worked with a ton of acts in hard rock and metal. Welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:04:42):

Yeah, thanks. Is this my second time on the podcast? It's

Speaker 2 (00:04:46):

Your second time. Okay,

Speaker 3 (00:04:47):

Cool. Thanks for having me back.

Speaker 2 (00:04:49):

Yeah, that was like two years ago though.

Speaker 3 (00:04:52):

Yeah. Okay, so I'm due for an update. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:55):

You're due.

(00:04:56):

So I wanted to ask you about something last time I saw you about two weeks ago. You were on your way to the airport for the opening night of Andy Black's tour and something from my own touring experience was that the good managers always showed up on day one, so it was like when you told me that's what you were doing, it was like, yeah, okay. No surprise there. But I think that for people who are not familiar with how all that works, it's actually kind of interesting because when I started touring, that actually surprised me a little bit. I had no idea that I had always heard that managers, all they do is answer the phone or they get paid to answer phones and send emails, but then the good ones, the badass ones would be there day one, always making sure everything was great. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what are the things that you expect to be going or that you're looking for to go wrong when you show up for the first day of a tour.

Speaker 3 (00:06:10):

The first day it was kind of just getting the lay of the land, especially whenever you've got a new crew of people. And I mean, look, I've got nothing to directly compare it to. I'm a musician first and I've been in bands pretty much my whole life. So whenever I go in there, my perspective is maybe a little bit different than a manager who even though they're clearly around that aspect of the business, maybe their perception of what they're doing on day one is different than me. But I go in there and obviously I want to make sure everything is running smoothly. I want to make sure that the vibe of the crew guys or everyone's kind of doing their job. I think that's kind of standard issue. And then I pick apart the merch booth, I want to make sure that the merch is displayed properly, that it looks good, that it has a good consumer flow, want to make sure that everything's priced properly.

(00:07:10):

And then it's kind of digging into the show itself, making sure everything's running according to plan, making sure that the VIPs is on point, making sure everyone's having a good time and not feeling rushed through there, kind of micromanaging that aspect as well. And then of course it's the show itself, how it runs, how the lights look, how the show looks, how it sounds is the front of house guy crushing it. And then at the end I'll critique it and I'll just be like, Hey, maybe you can flop these songs. I didn't feel like this song went over as good as say the other songs. Maybe the encore could be two songs instead of one. You know what I mean? Things of that nature. And then it's a matter of then after day one, looking at the merch, seeing what sold, seeing what was a little lackluster, and then that way I know how to kind of pivot and what to reorder a week or two down the road versus what I can kind of phase out and focus more or less on. And just any improvements that need to be done with the sound and lights and make sure that's all going so that by the time that you roll through the bigger important la, New York, everything is looking and sounding amazing. So it's just the general overview of an intense micromanagement situation. So that way whenever, because typically I like to go to the first show, then I like to go to la, New York and London, sort of the big major players.

(00:08:51):

LA obviously because the guest list is insanity, especially for a band that's from LA, New York because that's where label people are. So you've got your whole label contingent coming out and then London just because it's fun to go to London and those shows are always kick ass and the fans there are great. So yeah. So That'ss kind of the general, very long-winded answer to that.

Speaker 2 (00:09:16):

Do you think that certain aspects, like you talked about encore's for instance, is that informed because you are a musician? I feel like in most cases a band might be like, why the fuck's this guy talking about the music? But in your case, I feel like people would listen

Speaker 3 (00:09:36):

Because

Speaker 2 (00:09:36):

Of your musical background.

Speaker 3 (00:09:38):

I think you're right. I think it's two parts. One part because I do have a history of that, that I can talk that language and that someone will at least accommodate the conversation because maybe it's things that they're thinking as well or whatever. And so they'll take those things under advisement. And then also too the fact that I even have that level of input, whereas someone else might not because they just don't know, they're just not coming from the same, they just don't have the same experience that I have.

Speaker 2 (00:10:12):

Yeah. The other aspects such as merch and the way it's set up, all that stuff, the presentation, is that something that you then you set up, you have the way you want it and then you communicate that to the tour manager or who do you delegate all that stuff to just make sure that it's not just look busy, Jesus is coming and then the next day,

Speaker 3 (00:10:43):

Yeah, well I'll deal with the merch guy directly and typically never have any issues once it's up and running at a place to where we like it and look, maybe we need to order some extra lights or something extra that wasn't there. Obviously I rope in the tour manager, we make sure everything is going according to plan, but if I see any red flags, because I'm getting merch reports every day, I'm getting attendance reports every day. If I'm seeing red flags of like, oh, that's weird, we had a bad night in merch, what happened? And then that's the tour manager's responsibility to kind report back on anything and maybe it was just a bummed night or maybe something happened, but that's then me micromanaging from home versus being on the road and seeing it firsthand. So it's kind of the delicate balance of all that, but once, that's why it's important I think to go to that first show is to get that lay of the land so that whenever you get a report back from the road, you kind of understand you got a visual of what's happening. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (00:11:51):

Yeah, absolutely. My experiences in being in a really small band, I don't have any internal feeling for I guess what's normal and what's not when it comes to merch, but I can tell you from URM that there's a general baseline numbers wise that if that doesn't come in, it's not like I get really fucking scared or anything, but there's a certain number at which point, if it were a comic book, the three exclamation points would go up above my head and start looking at things and generally it resolves itself. But without naming specific figures, what's generally your safety zone or what's the point where you start saying what the fuck's going on? Is there a percentage or a range?

Speaker 3 (00:12:46):

I mean it comes down to a matter of consistency I think, right? So at the first week, we'll maybe set a tone for the numbers and the per head, so what you do is you take to kind of break it down, there's something called your head number on merchandise and what that is is that's the sort of the equation of your attendance divided by the amount of merch that you sold and that gets you your per head, meaning on average the fan spent 20 bucks and that's based on the overall amount of merch sold that night, like I said, divided by the attendance or whatever. So first week we'll generally set a tone for where that number is, whether it's 10 bucks ahead or 20 bucks ahead or fucking 100 bucks ahead. And so if you see a drastic dip in that plan, then you kind of got to look into it and ask some questions like, Hey, what happened? Oh, who knows what the answer is. Fortunately that doesn't happen very often and if it does, there's a legitimate reason for it. But yeah, it's just got to set the tone. Every band and every situation is different of where their trajectory is located in terms of tour merge. It's going to be different if you are an opening band versus a headlining band.

Speaker 2 (00:14:12):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:14:13):

And it's also going to be different if you're in a bar versus if you're in an arena. So Zach's for instance, Zach numbers are going to be different as him playing in black label headlining versus Zach Weil being the guitar player in Ozzy Osborne that has his merch at the merch booth in arenas, but him playing in Ozzy's band. Those are very different numbers in very different equations

Speaker 2 (00:14:41):

For an opening band, I think the equivalent would be the difference between a tour where you're at the price match and tour where you don't this going to give you a radically different result.

Speaker 3 (00:14:53):

And I mean look, price matching is for anyone that doesn't know. If you're an opening band on a tour, you have to set your prices the same amount as what the headliner dictates. So if the headliners are selling their shirts for 35 bucks, you have to sell your shirts for 35 bucks. That's just the way it is. Some situations don't do that, but I find those to be very few and far between. It's accepted. It's not like anyone comes in grumbling. Everyone knows that price matching is a real thing.

Speaker 2 (00:15:21):

I always liked it. I found it to be advantageous

Speaker 3 (00:15:24):

Just

Speaker 2 (00:15:24):

Because the headliner is always going to smoke you or almost always they're just going to trounce the openers for the most part. So that price match helps you make up for that. So I think it's a good thing. Just out of curiosity, are there any typical red flag situations or things where there is a dip and you're like, oh, okay, that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (00:15:57):

Yeah, the big one would be that the location of the merch because of the layout of the particular venue wasn't consumer friendly. Meaning you walk in the front door, the merch should be somewhere in proximity of an entrance or an exit. So where people are seeing it sometimes if it's like a two level club and the merch is upstairs where the majority of people aren't going to naturally gravitate towards that will get lost. You're like, why the dip? Oh, because the merch was next to the bathroom upstairs where no one goes. That would be a typical red flag warning of why did we do so bad in merch? Oh, because the location sucked.

Speaker 2 (00:16:42):

And is that something where if that happens, you're like, yo tour manager, how did you let that happen? Or is it the club made it happen? There was no choice?

Speaker 3 (00:16:52):

Yeah, I mean look, that type of thing happens infrequently, but it does happen and it's just because that's just the way the club is situated. At the time in the world when the club was built, they didn't take into consideration where the band's merch was going to go. It was probably built before band merch was even popular or a thing. And then also too, you got to consider, I mean if we're talking about working your way up the ladder, if you're a first of five, you got to consider there's four bands in front of you that get to pick. So if you're that fifth band man, you're limited on the space of where you can actually set your stuff up, so that's just par for the course.

Speaker 2 (00:17:35):

Yeah. Speaking of clubs and merch, what are your thoughts on having to tip out a percentage to the club for your merch?

Speaker 3 (00:17:46):

I think it sucks, although I understand that they're giving you a platform to sell your products, should they be getting a piece? I don't know. It's debatable.

Speaker 2 (00:18:01):

They should give you a piece of the bar then, correct?

Speaker 3 (00:18:03):

Because we we're bringing in people that are there. I mean it's a delicate balance. It's an argument that I don't know that anyone's going to win because they'd just be like, oh, that's cool, then you just can't sell your merch here, which obviously no one is ever going to do. And so I mean, not everyone can be Fugazi and make their own rules and do what they want and not have merchant not care, and tickets are $5 to get into the show. You know what I mean? Not everyone's got that kind of heavyweight mentality that they can just dictate the rules. Most people got to play by the rules, and so I think it becomes uncool whenever they start taking upwards of 20%. That feels a little uncool to me.

(00:18:56):

It feels like one of those things like, okay, I get it, but let's play ball here 5% a little bit to make it worth your while, but we're the ones doing all the work, so I feel like there could be a happier middle ground. I almost wish there was a set standard of that. This is the ceiling, this is the cap of what a club can actually charge a band to be able to sell their merchant in there. And look, there's still a lot of clubs that take nothing and those are the clubs that are cool that get it and that are very music friendly and they're like, we don't need to put our hands in your pocket. We're already doing that. So any club that does that is way cool in my book.

Speaker 2 (00:19:44):

Yeah, I totally agree. Alright, so switching topics. I just want to talk a little bit about your history, and we did kind of talk about this a little bit last time, but since that was over a hundred episodes ago, possibly someone didn't hear it. I just want to go back to your early days and you were bartending and selling clothes when you got the call for the Rob Zombie gig, is that correct?

Speaker 3 (00:20:13):

Yeah, I mean I was in between gigs and you got to do what you got to do. Fortunately, I had some pretty okay day jobs that I didn't hate, meaning that selling used clothes in a hip used clothing store and bartending at a hip bar. Those are cool enough jobs that are flexible, you know what I mean? It's like, dude, I know guys that frame houses, that's cool if that's your skill level and you don't mind doing that or whatever, but I would be super bummed if that's what I had to do, but But the point of it is is that at that point music wasn't paying the bills, so you got to do what you got to do to keep the rent paid.

Speaker 2 (00:21:04):

Absolutely. What were you doing outside of work to keep sharp for when an opportunity this possibly would come by?

Speaker 3 (00:21:11):

I mean, you've got friends that you jam with and I mean, I think at that time I had a couple of side bands and stuff. The music never ended just because I had to get a day job and just because I wasn't in a band that wasn't paying me anything didn't mean that the music stopped. Of course the dream kept rolling and I had my own bands and I was trying to get signed and trying to do all that, but that's a grind and while you're doing all that shit, got to once again, you got to pay the rent.

Speaker 2 (00:21:40):

Did you have any experience at that level when you got the call?

Speaker 3 (00:21:46):

Yeah, because when I got the call for Zombie, I had already been in Prong and I was in prong for a while and that was the first time I'd actually gone out of the country and played big festivals and done all that. But I was in a band called Drown before that and we actually opened shows for White Zombie, so it's like, look, was I some super seasoned high level arena rock stage Pro? No, but I dipped my toe in that water for sure, so it wasn't completely overwhelming. Why do you think you got the gig? Oh, specifically I got the gig because of being in a small circle of people in that whenever I was in Drown, we were managed by Walter O'Brien and Andy Gould and those two guys, their company was called the Piana Brothers or Concrete Management, and they managed collectively, they managed White Zombie, Pantera Prong and the Obsessed and a few other things.

(00:22:54):

I don't remember, but the point of it is they manage PanAir and White Zombie in those bands, breakout heyday. So because Drown was managed by them, I got in that circle. So whenever I left Drown and was on my own, whenever Prong needed a guy, I was in that circle. So I got a call and then likewise, whenever White Zombie needed or Rob Zombie needed someone, I got a call because I was in that circle. It's kind of like at that level, whenever there's someone needs a band member, it's kind of like you go to your immediate circle and you go like, Hey, I need a guy. Who do we know? Oh, I know this guy that was in Pong and Drown. Oh yeah, they opened for us. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, get him over here.

Speaker 2 (00:23:39):

It's interesting on the news, when you hear about corporate people hooking up their friends or their inner circle, it's made out to look like a really bad thing, but I've thought about it and anytime that I've had a real problem or a position to fill or something like that, I've always looked to my inner circle first because I know them and I trust them. Why would I go to a complete stranger? That's a question mark. I think that people who criticize that sort of thing haven't really thought it through all the way or are just pissed that they're not the ones who got the opportunity and are not realizing That's basically the way the entire world works. People go to who they know first.

Speaker 3 (00:24:28):

Look, I mean it's a topic that I'm sure you guys have covered over podcast and at your conventions is that your network is your net worth and in this business there is no truer statement and there's no true reality.

Speaker 2 (00:24:43):

Yeah, I mean the musical skill part is almost secondary. I mean it's great, but if you don't have that network in place, this shit is just not going to happen.

Speaker 3 (00:24:57):

For sure. And also too, a good reputation. It's one thing to have a network, but if you have a network of people that all think you're an asshole, that's not helpful. You have to have a network of people that want to pitch you for gigs or that you're top of mind whenever someone's looking for a bass player. Hey man, any bass players? Yeah, Blasko is, he's super cool man. He toured with so-and-so and whatever, whatever. It's like I play in Zach Sabbath, our Black Sabbath cover band. Our drummer is Joey Castillo who I played with in Danzig who obviously went on to play in Queens of the Stone Age and whatnot, but he's a guy that whenever someone is looking for a drummer, he's the guy that gets a call, for instance, he's going to be filling in a tour with the hives, it's the hives and refused and he got the call because the hives is looking for a guy and he's top of mind. He's a reputable dude, he's played in some cool bands. He's super reliable and super cool. It's like that's how you got to be.

Speaker 2 (00:25:58):

That was actually going to be my next question or comment was that, I mean, yeah, network is cool and obviously crucial, but that couldn't have been all of it alone, and so obviously people thought of you highly enough to put their own neck on the line. That's another thing that I think people need to realize is that when someone is recommended, it's not just that someone is being recommended, you're taking a risk to your own reputation by recommending someone. So you have to be beyond solid for someone serious to actually recommend you.

Speaker 3 (00:26:41):

Yeah, I mean that's a fact. I mean, you're totally right in that if I'm going to recommend somebody, I know that my reputation is on the line by, I got to make sure that they're going to show up and do a great job. There's plenty of people that I'm reluctant to put in that mix because of that very reason. I don't know that they're a hundred percent reliable and stuff. So yeah, I mean you got to be cool, reliable, and knowing your craft and understanding the gig and playability is one thing, but being a cool guy is a whole nother thing. I mean it's like, especially if we're talking about hired gun guys like someone to go on tour with, it's like, man, you're only on stage for an hour, hour and a half. It's the other 23 hours of the day that are way more important than that one hour on stage.

Speaker 2 (00:27:33):

What do you normally do with those other 23 hours to keep yourself sane?

Speaker 3 (00:27:38):

Well, fortunately I've got a business that I got to run from the road and I'm fortunate that it's flexible enough and that as long as I got my cell phone and my laptop and wifi and I don't even need wifi, I can just roll off of 3G, but as long as I'm connected, my business can run because I can reach my clients and I can reach my staff, and fortunately I've got a lot of extra time in the day to make sure that that train continues to roll, so that's what I do. Other people I don't know, but I can only speak for myself and that I do a gig and then I go back to work. To me, the gig is an escape from work. That's my vacation. That's me playing hooky for an hour or two. That's that, but primarily on the road, man, I'm grinding.

Speaker 2 (00:28:35):

Do you wish that musicians took that downtime more seriously? I just noticed that musicians on tour waste so much time just sitting around doing nothing.

Speaker 3 (00:28:47):

It's easy to fall into that trap. I think maybe a little less so now because everyone is connected. It's interesting, I think me being somewhat unique in a way in that I've been putting out records and being in bands since 1986 and here I am and I see and work with musicians now and they don't look at me as how I look at me and I go like, guys, I understand that you want to do what you want to do, but just remove your head from the clouds for a minute and take a look at me. I play in one of the biggest bands in the world and I have a side hustle that I've been doing for 13 years, and that's working with you guys. So take that into consideration. You know what I mean? I am not saying that anyone's got to abandon their dreams and their hopes, but it's just the reality I think to me, that no one can really consider music as a soul source of stream of income, and there's so much opportunity out there for everyone now that they can create additional sources of income that are flexible and that you can do from the road, and that can be fun in the meantime because look, at the end of the day, our careers, our music careers really aren't up to us.

(00:30:23):

They're in the hands of very fickle fans that may be here 10 years from now and may not be here 10 years from now, and so that career isn't necessarily indicative of how long we would like it to go. It's not up to us. So whenever I got the gig with Ozzy Osborne, that's whenever I started my side business because I realized like, whoa, I'm kind of nearing the end of the road, meaning that I don't want to play in a band that isn't as big or bigger than Ozzy Osborne. I felt like I've climbed the ladder up to a point to where I reached the top of the mountain and now is a time to where I got to kind of get serious and because Ozzy eventually at some point is going to retire and there's not going to be a whole lot of bands to jump into at that point. So I got to get smart with my opportunity right now and I got to build something so that 10, 15, 20 years from now whenever he retires, that I've got something that I can roll right into, and I feel that a lot of people don't look at me as an example and take it seriously.

Speaker 2 (00:31:37):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you remember, you already know how amazing it is. At the beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God, Opeth, chuga, bring Me The Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use of your portfolio.

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So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain staging, mastering loan and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content and man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy slash enhanced to find out more. It actually is one of my biggest fears from childhood. My dad used to tell me about that. He would point this out a lot because he's a musician too. One of my biggest fears was to get old and have to do covers and a day job just to pay for a bad apartment.

(00:34:00):

That was one of my biggest nightmares about music. You can be in the biggest band in the world, I think, and if you don't properly plan out what's going to happen after, I mean unless you're the number one, you're getting most of that publishing money and have that kind of set up. Unless you're that guy or those two guys, you really need to plan what's coming next. Or you could go from top of the world to one bedroom apartment at the age of 65.

Speaker 3 (00:34:32):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:34:32):

It's very realistic

Speaker 3 (00:34:34):

Without a doubt, and I didn't want to be that guy. I didn't want to be the guy. It's all that was 50 some years old and Ozzy does his retirement, and then I'm like, oh, now what? I thought this was going to last forever. How could I think that? So it was a survival mode that I immediately got into that. I was like, man, I can't be a 50 some year old dude with a skill level of bartending and playing bass and metal bands. What am I going to do? Like I said, I got to utilize this time that I've been fortunately given to build something on the side that I can then ride off into the sunset.

Speaker 2 (00:35:31):

Sounds like the Aussie gig was both amazing and terrifying then

Speaker 3 (00:35:36):

Without a doubt, because I mean, you got to think about it that you spend your whole life trying to get to an unattainable goal. Then when you get there, you're like, holy shit, I never thought that I would get here. And then you're there and you're like, oh, but now what? I'm here. This is awesome, but I got to figure out what I do after this now. I never thought I would have to think about that.

Speaker 2 (00:36:03):

Yeah, I mean, I agree. People should take you as an example. So what you meant by people see you differently than you see yourself, do you mean that they probably see you as some rockstar dude in a huge band and everything is just set, whereas you see it as the future is uncertain, got to grind this out to make it happen no matter what.

Speaker 3 (00:36:28):

Well, yes, there is one part that definitely that, and then the other part is not seeing that I'm in a tremendously huge band, but yet I have a side hustle that they just see me as manager guy. Oh, you're just like manager guy. It's like, no, you really are looking in the mirror right now. I am no different than anyone that I manage or anybody that's in a band that's a hired gun, whether I manage them or not. It's like, dude, look at what I'm doing. I'm not chilling. I don't get off stage and go to strip clubs and then wake up at 1:00 PM and then hit read the repeat button. That's not what I do. And that's fine. I mean, hey, look, anyone that can and wants to do that, fuck yeah, all day long, great, good for you, but I can't be that guy.

(00:37:29):

And that's what I'm saying. It's just like someone that's like, oh, man, I don't understand how you do what you do or how you make the time, dude, fuck you, make the time. Reality's real. You make the time. And it's interesting because I'm seeing a little bit more people take a similar path now to where they're like, man, I can do this myself. I do know enough about the business. What exactly are my expectations? Do I need to rely on someone else? Can I keep that money for myself and figure it out for myself? Yeah, you're seeing a lot of smarter musicians these days doing that. I know that you have a very clear perspective of seeing guys like that. Hell, I mean, you're one of them. So I think it's interesting as we go more into the digital tech world and things become at your disposal and you get a clear observation of the way that the world works, that we're getting a wave of brighter musicians and brighter, brighter bands.

Speaker 2 (00:38:43):

Well, the thing that you said earlier, I realized a long time ago, which is that it's not up to us. And so I would've loved for my band to get a lot bigger, and I worked really, really hard at it, but it just was not in the cards, and I thought that it would've been really pathetic to keep pushing for something that's clearly not going to happen, and I didn't want to be a producer either. That was just kind something I could kind of do well enough, but I don't know that whole thing about it is not up to us. That was super, super clear to me. I've always known it, but then once the band got signed and we started touring and I saw how everything worked, it was just like reality check. You can do everything and if the public is not your partner in this, nothing's going to happen. And you could do literally everything you need to do and you'll watch another band do a little less and go 20 times further because the difference is the public supports them, and that's not up to you. It's like if you're a dude who has a crush on a girl and she doesn't like you, there is literally nothing you can do about it. It is what it is. I just got to get over it. I think it's a similar thing. You can't control how other people are going to feel, but you can control what you're going to do to not lose at life.

Speaker 4 (00:40:20):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:40:21):

I wonder though, with musicians nowadays, I do agree there's much smarter musicians, and I do remember actually on tour sitting around thinking, wow, so many of these people are not taking advantage of this opportunity that they've got. Blows my mind. Does that make it harder though for you as a manager? Meaning what? That there's less of a role possibly, or does it make it easier for you with musicians being smarter, that you can have better partners, less handholding?

Speaker 3 (00:40:57):

That's the way I look at it. You get people in there that sort of are less glossy eyed about realities of this particular business, and you've got people that are going into it with a different type of mindset, something with a better sense of a work ethic, someone that understands the difference between gross and net. Someone that understands that we all want to be big and we all want to be successful, but while we're climbing up the ladder, we still need to be as successful as we can be, even at a smaller level, meaning we have to always tour at a profit at the point to where we are taking a loss. That has to be a shorter and shorter time period. And I've definitely seen a pattern with people that are understanding at least that basic mechanic, which is probably the most important.

Speaker 2 (00:42:00):

Speaking of which, and honestly, I don't know if you work with them anymore, this is in the past, but I thought a really great example of that that you're talking about is Goat whore because they were one of the first bands that we toured with back in 2007 or oh six, and we just were like, wow, this band's not big, but somehow they've got their shit really together and they make the most out of every single opportunity out here possible. They're optimizing everything. At least that's what it appeared to me, and I always thought that that was not like the other bands.

Speaker 3 (00:42:42):

Yes, that is a good observation. And I think there are a handful of bands like them that yes, you are correct. They make a living at being that level of a band because they understand every aspect of the business in terms of how to make it a business even whenever it isn't huge, right? Huge money doesn't have to be the only answer, right? Only at a point to where we're playing arenas, does that mean we can make a career at this? That's totally not true. I think that they take the Motorhead approach where they understand their brand, they understand their audience, they continually grind, they continually give their fan base what they want. They understand their merchandising more than most people. They understand what it takes to go on tour at a profitable level and continue to do that and continue to build their brand.

(00:43:43):

I mean, like I said, it's like I use the Motorhead as an example. Like, man, that shit was Teflon, man. It was. You couldn't do anything to stop that train. The Lemi Motorhead train, that thing was unstoppable, and he understood his audience, man, he maximized the merch. I mean, that's one of those bands to where it's like they probably sold way more t-shirts than records, but that's what it took. And understanding how to profit even at a small level, that is an important skillset. And not to be bummed by it, like, oh, we're a small band. No, dude, you can still be a small band and be a pirate and go out and make money. You just got to understand how to do that, and you got to understand the difference between gross and net. You got to understand the difference between not spending more than you make, and you got to build it out there and it shouldn't sound daunting. I hope I'm not kind of painting some picture where it's just like, man, you might as well just work at, it's easier. No

Speaker 2 (00:44:48):

Go or do not have a bad time.

Speaker 3 (00:44:50):

No, I mean, it should be fun and making sure that you're not spending more than you're making isn't some fucking grand task. It's pretty simple when you break it down, but you got to just keep your eye on the prize and you got to, it's okay to be thinking like, man, I really wish I had what somebody else had. Even Metallica fails. They had that festival for two years and it didn't work, and they failed, and then they made that movie and brought it into theaters, and that was an epic financial loss. But they take risks and that's okay. But my point is is that even Metallica wishes they were the Rolling Stones, they're not even happy with being Metallica sometimes. And that's interesting perspective, right? Because anybody always wants more and to be bigger and wishes they had what somebody else had. And that's okay because I think that that provides a healthy level of enthusiasm and hunger to want to strive to be better, but you can't lose sight of what you have because if you do that, then you lose on both ends.

Speaker 2 (00:46:09):

So speaking of optimization of the Motorhead style thing and making the most out of something, I don't want this to sound bad. I think Zach's huge and the legend, but is that kind of the approach that you and Zach are taking regarding his career, make the most, optimize it, make the best possible, everything for that audience?

Speaker 3 (00:46:36):

Yeah. I mean, comparatively to say Motorhead Zach is different because he's an individual. I think that maybe if you take the one slice of the Zach Pizza as Black Label Society, I think that that's very much an motorhead inspired sort of presentation. But Zach is very different because Zach also can play for Ozzy Osborne, and then he can also go on the Experience Hendricks tour, and he can also go on Generation X with Steve I and Vey and a handful of others. And so he's a Swiss Army knife of guitar players, whereas Lemi very much crafted the one thing that he did very, very well, almost like Gene Simmons crafted Kiss as the one thing that he did did very well. And admittedly he'll say like, oh yeah, I had a magazine and it failed and I tried acting and it failed or whatever. He knows that he did one thing very well, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's fucking badass and you always got to try other things. But Zach is different in that regard in that he is a brand in and of itself, and he has little sub-brands that he could do, whether it's something that he takes ownership of or whether it's something that he is a part of, but he's one of a kind in that way. I can't even think of someone comparable that works as hard on as many different projects as he does successfully.

(00:48:14):

I'm not saying that that person doesn't exist, it's just in my immediate field division. No one comes to mind that does what he does. They're

Speaker 2 (00:48:21):

Like one in 10 million, I think. But he's always been that way. I remember, I mean, I was really, really young when no more tears came out and stuff. That's when I became aware of him. But I remember even back then he had the acoustic side project and was just doing different things. He wasn't just the lead guitar player in that band, even though he was the lead guitar player in that band, and he was incredible. People didn't ever see him as just that guy in the band. They saw him as his own entity who did whatever he wanted.

Speaker 3 (00:48:58):

And there's a handful of things that you can take away from the Zach model, is that? Yes. Is he a very gifted, skillful individual as a guitar player? Hell yeah. No question. But that's not where it ends.

Speaker 2 (00:49:14):

If that's where it ended, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Speaker 3 (00:49:17):

No, dude, he loves playing guitar, loves it. He's just put me on the road with whoever. As long as I'm playing guitar, I'm cool. And I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of musicians don't necessarily love playing guitar or playing their instrument. Love it. He practices guitar every day. He plays guitar every day, not because he feels like he needs to learn a new song or that he needs to hone his craft more. It's because he loves playing guitar as he always has. And that's something very specific that man, if you don't love it, you're always going to feel like you're unsuccessful because any day that you have the ability to play your instrument, whether or not you're making money at it, it's like that is where the success comes in. Whenever he got the Ozzy gig, man, he was working at a gas station in Jackson, New Jersey, he's been able to play guitar his whole life, and that's a success no matter how you look at it.

(00:50:21):

But regardless, I think that the other thing to take into consideration here with him is that knowing that you are a brand and treating yourself as you are a brand above and beyond just your skillset of as the instrument that you play his content creation on, social media rivals, anyone. I don't think there's anyone in this genre that creates better content and is as engaged as his. He's created whenever he first got onto social media and over time he started on Twitter and he created a personality and he was active on there before a lot of people. And then whenever Instagram came around, he really took ownership of that platform as to how to express himself and how to showcase himself. And not just as a guitar player, but as a personality. And that adapting yourself to different platforms so that you resonate with people that maybe don't even realize that you play guitar. That's a whole other skill level that I don't feel like most of his peers has even begin to wrap their head around.

Speaker 2 (00:51:37):

Well, that's why he's one of the only people from that era, eighties and nineties, one of the only guitar players from that era who are still not only relevant, but thriving.

Speaker 3 (00:51:50):

Right, more than relevant. Relevance is one thing, but what about successfully? Relevant?

Speaker 2 (00:51:56):

Yeah, exactly. And something interesting, I want to key in on that you're saying is that you keep saying that he owned it, he adopted these things. Sounds like you didn't have to force him the situation where a manager has to talk the band into making social content and the band will do it begrudgingly because they have to promote, but it's not fully owning it. Man, I remember his Twitter blasts back. They were hilarious. I remember that shit. It was super engaging. He'd just go on these rants that were like, before Twitter rants were even a thing. He was Twitter ranting. He was one of the first people, famous people I saw who would have a 12 part tweet that was just amazing. Just one after the next, just pummeling stuff. That's not a new thing anymore. But he was one of the first to really do that in a way where people would start sending it to each other. And I remember that. And so obviously you guys have this massive history together and all that, and he's great, and all that stuff is taken into consideration. But the fact that he owns this stuff, does that make all the difference in the world to you as a manager?

Speaker 3 (00:53:34):

Well, yeah, because he's not afraid of it and because it's like me saying to someone, man, you got to get on social media. You should really create a personality in there. Look, either you got it or you don't. Got it. And I feel like sometimes things are really that simple. It's one thing to be skillful at your craft, but it's another thing to have a personality. And in this day and age of social media, a talent or skill is only going to get you so far a personality is going to get you way further because that's just the world we're living in. And there was, at no point did I tell him, what would be great, man, if you made these really funny videos on Instagram? No, I didn't have to tell him that. He innately knows what he's supposed to do. He can look at the platform and he goes, oh, what works really well on here? I'm a magician guitar player. I know people like to see my sweeping magical skill level of guitar playing, but above and beyond that, that gets boring. I got to do stuff that's funny. I got to do stuff that's engaging. I have to find more impressive ways to announce a tour or a product or whatever. And he's mastered it, just like he's master guitar man, he's mastered social media, and once again, it's because he's got a personality and knows how to showcase it, and he is taking advantage of the platform that's available to him. I do not see a lot of people replicating that successfully.

Speaker 2 (00:55:14):

No, definitely not. But I mean, you can't really, I don't know. It's like you can create a character, but you can't create a personality really. I think.

Speaker 4 (00:55:24):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:55:25):

I think there's a few things at play. Also, the fact is that he's somebody that the public accepts and he knows exactly what it is that they love about him and how to amplify that. Something else you said that was interesting. I just did an episode of this podcast with the singer from Follow-Up Boy last week actually. And we were talking about musicians and writers, and he's very, very serious about songwriting. He was saying that that's all he ever wanted to do it. I mean, obviously he wanted to be in a big band, but he loves writing, and so he's writing all the time no matter what. And there's also the career side of things, but he loves writing. He's not doing that as the means to the end. That is the end. And it sounds like with Zach, it's like, yes, all the career stuff is in place. Yes, he's very entrepreneurial. He created this character, all that stuff. But also the fact is he loves guitar enough to do what he needs to do every single day to stay incredible.

Speaker 3 (00:56:43):

Yeah. Yeah, which is it's passion, man. I mean, if there's one, it's

Speaker 2 (00:56:48):

No accident.

Speaker 3 (00:56:49):

No. If there's one consistent between anyone successful in this business is they are passionate about what they do, whatever it is, right? You're passionate about URM. It's successful. Zach's passionate about playing guitar. He's successful. Brian Slagel was passionate about metal and created Metal blade and its successful label and has brought to us one of the most influential, most important bands of the genre. And it's a through line that I cannot deny that anyone listening, how does my band get bigger? How does my career get bigger as a producer or as an engineer? What do I do? It's like you have to be passionate about it, and you can't fake it. You have to wake up every day and go to bed every day inherently thinking and dreaming about what it is that you love doing. And if that isn't there, I don't know that you can learn to be that guy. Potentially you can, but if that isn't there, then you probably won't be successful at doing something that you aren't overly passionate about. And that's just what I found. And I'm sure someone could debate me that I'm totally wrong and that there's examples otherwise, but that's what I found.

Speaker 2 (00:58:06):

I think you're right. I've never been able to talk myself into being passionate about something. Like I said, I was contrary to what some people might think. I was not really ever that passionate about production. For some reason though, I'm very passionate about what URM does, which is kind of weird because it is about production, but production itself, I enjoyed it to a degree, but I was never passionate enough about it to go the distance that some of these guys we have on nail a mix go. They are to production what Zach is to guitar. And I was never that, and I realized that. And I don't think you can invent that. I don't think you can, but I do think it's important to be really honest with yourself. If you don't have that passion for something you thought you wanted, that's okay. There might be something else related to it or something totally different that you do have a passion for. And that's not taking a loss. Because if you're passionate for it, you're winning. If you can make it work and you're passionate for it, it doesn't matter if it wasn't your original idea, you're still winning,

(00:59:17):

In my opinion.

Speaker 3 (00:59:18):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:59:19):

I think one of the keys though, is being honest with yourself. And I think that for musicians, it's tough because the rock and roll dream is something you get when you are really young, generally like 13, 14 or whatever, and it takes until adulthood to realize it, in most cases, sometimes a decade, 15 years. And in that time, you could become a totally different person and not really want it the same way you did, but because you invested so much of your identity and yourself in it, you stay committed even though it's not exactly the best fit. And I think it's hard for musicians to come to terms with that sometimes, but they should agreed a hundred percent. Awesome. Well, I think this is a good place to stop it, man. I want to thank you for coming back on the podcast. It's been awesome talking to you as always.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):

Yeah, I'll be back on another couple hundred episodes. Looking forward to it. We'll continue it from there, and hopefully we're still following our dreams and passions and we've excelled even further by then. Yeah, I don't plan on stopping. Exactly. The Unstoppable

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):

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