ELIRAN KANTOR: Turning anxiety into art, why craft beats networking, and landing his Testament gig

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. Brought to you by tele Funken Electroacoustic Tele Funken. Electroacoustic has been following the tradition of excellence and innovation set forth by the original tele Funken GM BH of Germany that began over 100 years ago with one foot rooted in the rich history of the brand and the other in new microphone innovations for both stage and studio applications. Tele Funkin Electroacoustic is recognized as one of the industry leaders in top quality microphones. For more info, go to t-funk.com. And now your host Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:00:39):

Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyak Levi and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like TH of God, Shuga Periphery the Day to Remember. Bring me the horizon, opec many, many more, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multi-tracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast. Today with me is Mr. Eliran Kantor, which is an artist illustrator that's crafted some of the most striking and well-known art in metal for the past 10, 15 years. And his work can be seen on albums by bands like Ark Spire, thy Artist, murder, I Star Testament, hate Breed Gir, and I mean, I could basically spend this entire podcast talking about it. So instead of that, I'm just going to welcome you on. Hello, sir, how are you doing?

Speaker 3 (00:01:54):

Hey man. Thanks for having me. I'm doing great. How about you?

Speaker 2 (00:01:56):

Doing great. I want to talk about what we were just talking about because I know that scheduling this podcast has been a bit of a nightmare, and you said that Josta actually flies to every location.

Speaker 3 (00:02:10):

I'm not sure if he flies to every location. I think he just bundles them together in clusters. He just flies to one location and meets a few of his guys that he knows that live around this area, and I think he records from the road as well, but that just from listening to his podcast,

Speaker 2 (00:02:29):

That makes sense. I'm trying to imagine adding even more travel to my schedule would be insane. But last week or this week, it was this week actually, I went Tell LA to do a podcast in person with a Patrick Stump singer from Follow-Up Boy, and I enjoyed doing it in person. We've only done three of these in person and I kind of like it better, but just, man, I travel so much as is. I can't imagine doing more.

Speaker 3 (00:03:00):

I imagine. I mean, you get another dimension of human interaction. You look each other in the face, you see the hands and the hand movements and gestures and the facial expression. Yeah, I get why people do it.

Speaker 2 (00:03:15):

That's true. However, there's an other side to that equation, which is that if you're talking to someone that's shy or has social anxiety, which is a lot of people in music,

Speaker 3 (00:03:27):

Do I need to raise my hand at this point?

Speaker 2 (00:03:29):

I mean, I'll raise mine too, and so we'll, probably about 90% of the people listening. Sometimes I think that the guests are more comfortable not seeing somebody and just talking like we're doing now. Audio only, they don't get as anxious.

Speaker 3 (00:03:48):

You should break the ice by, I mean making a weird, awkward entrance when you meet them. Just sleep on something and fall down.

Speaker 2 (00:03:57):

That's a great idea. I'll do that

Speaker 3 (00:04:00):

And you'll get better with it with each and every time. We'll do it.

Speaker 2 (00:04:04):

I'll start practicing now so that by the time we're like 50 in, I can reduce the amount of broken bones. I

Speaker 3 (00:04:10):

Just did the same thing with an awkward joke. It's the same

Speaker 2 (00:04:13):

Thing. So keep practicing.

Speaker 3 (00:04:17):

Yeah, this is my version of sleeping on a banana pill

Speaker 2 (00:04:21):

To

Speaker 3 (00:04:21):

Make laying that joke. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:23):

The more you do it, the better it gets.

Speaker 3 (00:04:25):

Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:04:27):

Yeah. Speaking is something that you get better at as you go along. So you watch this segue. How long have you been an artist?

Speaker 3 (00:04:36):

Nice. How long?

Speaker 2 (00:04:38):

So skillful,

Speaker 3 (00:04:39):

I don't know. I've been making pictures of it since I was a kid. When I was maybe three or four, I started drawing on the walls. My dad used to draw and paint. He painted the walls of my bedroom when I was a kid. He painted Disney characters and he was a really big Pink Floyd fan, so he painted his walls with characters from the wall from the movie or from the inner gatefold, if you remember the vinyl version. And I just kept on making pictures. When I was in elementary school, I used to paint with pencils a lot. Then afterwards, I enrolled when I was 10, I think I enrolled into a biweekly junior art classes where I was taught the very basics of perspective and using different mediums and such. And afterwards when I was in my teen years, I got into the music scene and I started out by painting on other people's walls. I made murals, I painted mostly album covers in my friend's bedrooms and some of them had bands,

Speaker 2 (00:05:44):

So other people's album covers.

Speaker 3 (00:05:46):

Yeah, I would paint made album covers, merciful Faith and King Diamond album covers on my walls and my friends were into Men World or death metal stuff, and some of them had bands. So when they needed an album cover for their band, and this is like I'm talking about age 17, I started making the album covers for their bands as well and just kept on going. From that point on, it was never set up to be a career or something. I mean the next day came and I had another job waiting for me, so I just moved on from that point and here I am. How much? 18 years later. I was actually when I was 17, I thought I'm going to be in music production. I thought I would be an engineer. I actually bought a very small setup and recorded like a demo for my friend's bands. I can't remember. I used some software that I kept on going with the 30 day trial and I got this amplifier simulator, I don't know if you know it, JST by Johnson.

Speaker 2 (00:06:52):

Oh yeah, of

Speaker 3 (00:06:54):

Course it was before the pod even.

Speaker 2 (00:06:57):

I remember those.

Speaker 3 (00:06:58):

I recorded one demo for my friend's band, which was a crazy band. They sounded like a mixture of pop punk, but I'm talking like Blink 180 2 and Technical Death Metal. So they had crazy drumming in the background. Sounded like the drummer is playing a totally different song and they had solo breaks, which sounded like Ellen Osworth and I totally butchered the demo sound wise, but we were all 17.

Speaker 2 (00:07:26):

So I guess a bunch of bands didn't start showing up at your door kind of like they did.

Speaker 3 (00:07:32):

No, the 30 day trial on my program was done and that's it. That I was never so good at that. No, seriously. And I could see that moving on. I would get ear fatigue. Plus I'm not very musical. I've got hard time keeping time and being with the right pitch and everything. So I was always into music. I was always into records and so much, I was so interested in band's, biographies, and I was a really music nerd more than I've ever been an art nerd, but I was just not very good at it.

Speaker 2 (00:08:08):

So when you say that the bands all just started showing up, did you ever do any advertising at all or has it literally all been word of mouth for the past 18 years?

Speaker 3 (00:08:19):

It was in the beginning it was a combination of word of mouth and solicitating or just email everybody. I would email managers. I would email labels. I would email bands. I would send messages on MySpace back then as well. So yeah, that was the only thing I've ever done. I don't think I've ever advertised.

Speaker 2 (00:08:41):

And how many people would get back to you when you were basically carpet bombing them with emails and messages?

Speaker 3 (00:08:50):

I think one out of maybe like 50, so that was rough and you had to deal with a lot of rejection basically. So even those who write you back, it's like a slim chance that they'll move on to walking with you because back then my portfolio was basically nothing. I had some of my wall paintings that I did on my friends' walls and a couple of records that I did, and that was basically it.

Speaker 2 (00:09:13):

Did anything big come out of that or did most of it come from the ones that you knew in person or who were friends with other bands and then told their friends to go with you?

Speaker 3 (00:09:25):

Basically the big change in my career was when I started working with Testament and that was a result of me emailing Maria Ferre used to manage Lamb of God. You probably know her from her PR company. Adrenaline. Yeah, yeah, I

Speaker 2 (00:09:40):

Know her.

Speaker 3 (00:09:41):

I emailed her about doing our book for Lamb of God, and she also managed Testament back then. So she got me in touch with Eric and that's what started our collaboration.

Speaker 2 (00:09:50):

So I guess it does work. Sometimes

Speaker 3 (00:09:52):

It does work, but it's a fluke. I mean, but it's totally worth it when I'm thinking about all those countless emails that I've sent back then. I mean, yeah, God knows where I would've been if I didn't do the Testament album and the other three that we've done together since

Speaker 2 (00:10:09):

How many years of sending emails relentlessly and doing local bands covers, how many years of that went by before the Testament thing happened?

Speaker 3 (00:10:22):

I can't remember. I guess around three or four at this point, but I was doing other stuff simultaneously because I was in the beginning. I started it when I was 17 and then at 18 I was living in Israel. So you get drafted at 18 and then you go to the Army for three years. I used to do website design as well for bands back then. And afterwards I got a job working for an advertising company and I would be the youngest art director they had. I would direct the national campaigns for stuff like Toys Us and Pizza Hut. And then I would come back at home late at night at 10 and walk on metal album covers. And after a year I quit in order to focus on metal album. On those metal album covers.

Speaker 2 (00:11:11):

Were you making enough money from the metal album covers to reasonably quit?

Speaker 3 (00:11:16):

No. No. When I quit I basically had to take that risk that I'm going to make about four times less than in my job in the advertising world. But that was great because I just took out a new lease for a year, this new apartment, and I had to make it work because now I've got rent coming at the end of the month and I've got no safety net, so I have to make it work. And this is how I started. I mean you call it a hustle, but it was, I don't know, just as you said, carpet bombing, everybody talking to all of my friends and starting to slowly building it up from that point on.

Speaker 2 (00:12:00):

So it's just when you had time,

Speaker 3 (00:12:01):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:12:02):

You just kept the momentum going.

Speaker 3 (00:12:04):

Yeah, I had to because this was my biggest passion still is. This was something I was always obsessed about. And just in the last few years I've come to turn with the way that you need to realize that your shortcomings, your flaws, I mean you can fight them, but you can embrace them and figure out that those had a big part in what made you successful or what made some of the stuff you made successful? Because I was always obsessed. I was always so much into, I don't know, reading too much, thinking too much, being anxious, being, I don't know, never leaving a project behind, always thinking about stuff. And it made me not a fun guy to be around. I would not listen to anybody. I would just be nervous and anxious all the time. But it made it so that when I was walking on things, it translated into attention to details. It was translated into becoming this, I don't know, I'm basically a library of every album cover I've ever seen. And when I'm thinking about a concept for an album cover, I have this very great filter because I remember each and every time I saw a concept on another record. So this is how I come up with original stuff that I know I haven't seen in any other place.

Speaker 2 (00:13:32):

What you're saying right now I think is exactly the same. If you want to get great at an instrument or great at mixing or even start a company like URM, people ask me all the time how to do any of those. And I really think that the number one thing is that you have to be super obsessed with it to the point of fucking up other parts of your life. It's kind of impossible to really be as obsessed as you need to be to push something forward and be a totally balanced person.

Speaker 3 (00:14:08):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (00:14:08):

I've never met anyone who is, there's this weird myth, you see it on social media a lot and you see a lot of self-help books about it, about balance and all that. It's all bullshit because,

Speaker 3 (00:14:23):

And you know what? If you get good at your craft, it fixes everything else.

Speaker 2 (00:14:28):

That's true.

Speaker 3 (00:14:28):

If you get so good at your craft, you don't need to worry about the growth of your Instagram account or not being good at networking or even being a Punisher. What's a punisher? I've met a guy in a party a few months ago. He shared with me tons of stuff about his personal life. He asked me a lot of questions. He wanted to spend a lot of time with me. He wanted to do something together in the future, also known as the Let's Collab bro.

Speaker 2 (00:14:58):

How's that collab coming along?

Speaker 3 (00:15:00):

It'll be somewhere in the future. But the thing is, he was a musician that I really admired. So all of these attributes sound like a classic punisher. But because he just got so good at his craft, I was really into it and I wanted to hear what he has to say about his personal life, and I was enjoying this conversation about getting so many questions and spending so much time together. So yeah, it just, it'll fix everything else that you would spend so much time thinking how to become better at marketing, better at networking, better at growing your Instagram account. Just get better at your craft and it'll be worth it at the end. Because if your main passion is your craft, be it out artwork or music or whatever and all the other stuff you do only to supplement your career, then you'll reflect great benefits out of focusing on what you really care about and getting everything else done automatically from that point.

Speaker 2 (00:16:01):

I have a very similar story. Back when I was in my band, me and the other guitar player went on somebody's bus and the main guy in the band who I had never met before, recognized us immediately. I'll say who it is in a second, but he came up to us and he told us exactly what kind of guitars we play and was just asking us a million questions about this and that and about the guitar album we just put out and it just went on and on and on. But I didn't care. It was Devin Townsend and it blew me away.

Speaker 3 (00:16:34):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:16:35):

Yeah. So if it was in another situation, I'd probably be flattered, but it would be a bit much. But because it was him, it was totally cool.

Speaker 3 (00:16:46):

And he is a prime example of an obsessed guy. I just met him a week ago because we've been working on a record for three years at this point. But it's on the back burner. It's the penis symphony that he's been developing The Moth, but it's going to be amazing. I've heard the first few demos maybe three years ago, but that's Devin. It's going to do it when he feels like it. But he's amazing. I was always a major fan of his, and when he wrote me, it was so flattering to just get an email from this guy

Speaker 2 (00:17:19):

That even knows you exist. It was cool.

Speaker 3 (00:17:22):

Yeah, he was introducing himself. It was like, I'm Devin, I released a few records, few inside out, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm a huge fan. I've been to a few of your concerts. I own a lot of your albums. Yeah, let's do it. And it's going to be an amazing record. It's going to be, I don't know, it sounds like a combination of God flesh and stravinski.

Speaker 2 (00:17:44):

I actually am looking forward to hearing that. Has it stopped being weird to you to get to work with that level of artist, musical artist, or does it still kind of blow your mind?

Speaker 3 (00:17:57):

I think it is. I think when the music is good, then it still blows my mind. Yeah, I mean, some of my records that I still to this day talk about it when people ask me, which records have you been in? I lean towards saying the stuff that maybe it's not my best artwork, but that's the music I like best. And I bring up the album I did with Anna Cruzs, which is one of my favorite bands. I bring up the albums I did with and the album I did with Atheist. Were you on that atheist album as well?

Speaker 2 (00:18:31):

No, I was not. Because

Speaker 3 (00:18:34):

I remember we did a few albums together,

Speaker 2 (00:18:37):

But not that one. I know why you would think I was, but I was involved with the people who were on that one.

Speaker 3 (00:18:45):

Oh, okay. Because I think what we did together was a dark sermon and

Speaker 2 (00:18:50):

That's right.

Speaker 3 (00:18:51):

Enders game or End

Speaker 2 (00:18:53):

Game. I wonder if they're still together.

Speaker 3 (00:18:55):

I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (00:18:56):

I am just saying because they were a band in Atlanta that had already been together

Speaker 1 (00:19:01):

For

Speaker 2 (00:19:02):

10 years when my band was first getting together, and they outlasted us by a long, long shot. But Atheist was kind of in that same clique as everyone from Death and Cynic and Florida. And I was kind of in my own little way in that click too. So I can see how you would've thought that.

Speaker 3 (00:19:25):

I think it was just because of the audio hammer connection.

Speaker 2 (00:19:27):

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (00:19:29):

Oh yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:19:29):

But about the part of being obsessed, how do you know when you're taking it too far or when someone should stop being obsessed and just do something else?

Speaker 3 (00:19:40):

I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (00:19:42):

I've wondered about that.

Speaker 3 (00:19:43):

That's a good question. I mean, I don't know, be so self-aware. It's got to be one of the hardest things to do because I struggle with self-awareness as well. I dunno, maybe you can. But thinking about it, the first few years, there were no signs of this ever turning into a career that I would one day be able to raise a family on and think about the future. But I'm going back to the thing about my flaws in my shortcomings. I was always so immature. I was never thinking about what's the future going to be like? Is this going to be my future? This going to be my career? I would just always kept keeping on making pictures ever since I was a kid. So I mean eventually, this is what led me to this point because after a while it just picked on and became a career all of a sudden. But everybody else would, for the first few years, would've quit at some point because there were no signs of this ever becoming something so serious. And I attribute it to this lack of awareness and lack of maturity that just kept me driving.

Speaker 2 (00:21:02):

So what you're saying is if you were more mature and a lot more aware of reality of being an artist for most artists, you may have quit.

Speaker 3 (00:21:11):

Yeah, because the odds are against you and reality is against you. You can see that a few years of past and your business is basically in a place where you can sustain it for very long, for years. And I mean, it goes against every rationale you can think about, but here I am, I turned this thing upside down after a few years and I'm glad I did and I glad I never quit. So I have no idea what to say to somebody who doesn't know when to quit. I think that the higher the stakes, the bigger you can fall. I mean, I could have wasted all of this time at this point. I've got no other skills. I don't even have a high school diploma. I've got nothing to fall back on. So it's a high risk. I mean, if you fall, that's a big fall, but if you win, that can be something really special to be so happy with what you produce to be. So, I don't know, proud of the point artistically that you ended up in.

Speaker 2 (00:22:23):

It is a big gamble. Did you really have zero clues along the way of what it would become? Because you know what? I actually kind of had zero for a long time as well, and I just kept going and writing songs and learning about the industry and trying my studio, but I had zero feedback for years and years that anything was ever going to work out. I just kind of knew it would. But I know that there's lots of people who just kind of know that it will and it won't. So that's not a good

Speaker 3 (00:22:59):

Indicator.

Speaker 2 (00:23:00):

It's not a good indicator. But the problem is that everything that felt like that about has worked out. So when people ask me about it, I tell them that, yeah, everything I've made happen is completely unrealistic. But I knew it was going to work out and in my head I knew it was going to work out because I had every step figured out. I knew exactly how it would work, and it was just like a logic equation in my head.

Speaker 3 (00:23:30):

And can you imagine yourself doing something else just because it would be like a safer bet?

Speaker 2 (00:23:35):

Fuck no,

Speaker 3 (00:23:35):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:23:36):

Fuck no. Absolutely not.

Speaker 3 (00:23:38):

So it's worth it at the end. And even if you fail, I don't know. That's experience that maybe you can channel it towards something else.

Speaker 2 (00:23:48):

I've definitely failed at a few things. Like for instance, URM started as UKM

(00:23:53):

Back in 2012, and it was a different type of thing. It was more for bands. And I realized very quickly that bands are terrible business and had to go back to the drawing board. It had several false starts. I've started bands that have gotten nowhere. I've been fired off of a few records here and there. Everybody does at some point, but what I'm saying is there's shit that falls apart or shit that doesn't work. I think that's true of everybody. But the one thing is that in any of those situations, I couldn't see how it was really going to work out. Every time that it's worked out, I have actually been able to see it, but I have never had a plan B. And I almost feel like if you worry too much about having a plan B, you're not going to put in enough work to plan A to make plan a happen.

Speaker 3 (00:24:40):

Yeah, I think it's the same as without a safety net. It's like fight or flight, there's no other option. I think that contributed a lot to creating a situation where I was unable to just switch gears and do something else. I was unable to give up and live a more comfortable life doing something that would be maybe more comfortable but not as rewarding, not as challenging, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (00:25:12):

Well, you would've had to finish high school and kind of go do a bunch of things just to be able to kind of catch up to the normal world.

Speaker 3 (00:25:22):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:25:22):

That sounds terrible.

Speaker 3 (00:25:24):

That sounds terrifying.

Speaker 2 (00:25:25):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:25:25):

Because I remember now that I think about it in the first few years, I would hear some stuff from my family going, and are you going to finish this high school diploma because they were worried about me.

Speaker 2 (00:25:38):

Well, understandably so.

Speaker 3 (00:25:40):

No, it makes perfect sense. But I dunno, it just fizzed out over the years and now it's like a comforting thing to think about that I managed to put this behind me, but fear and anxiety is still a driving force because it can very might as well end tomorrow. Every new day, the fear and anxiety are there because even when I leave a piece when I'm walking on artwork, what are the chances that everything on this piece is perfect? Because there are a million trillion ways of having the composition and the details on it. What are the odds that what I did right now is the perfect, the best outcome it could be? So when I step away from a piece of art, when I send it to the band, when it gets produced, the anxiety and fear is there as well. You never know when something is done. It's how to let stuff go.

Speaker 2 (00:26:42):

Does it ever go away?

Speaker 3 (00:26:43):

I'm not sure because have you been listening to your old stuff?

Speaker 2 (00:26:47):

Absolutely not. I won't try it. No. Hell no. I've already tried it

Speaker 3 (00:26:52):

Every once in a while. Look at all the stuff and does this thing in you that just wants you to pick it up and redo it in order to get it right, because you are older, you are wiser, you are better technically, and you have to let it go at some point because otherwise I would be just, have you seen that MythBusters episode when they are episode where they are polishing a turd?

Speaker 2 (00:27:15):

No, I haven't. So it

Speaker 3 (00:27:16):

Turns out that you can polish a third, it shines,

Speaker 2 (00:27:19):

But it's still a turd,

Speaker 3 (00:27:20):

But it shines. It's very shiny and pretty to look at and at the end of the day, this is what I do. You can't smell my stuff, but it can be shiny and pretty

Speaker 2 (00:27:30):

If the rest of the world is happy with it, that's not enough.

Speaker 3 (00:27:34):

I have no idea because I never think, I mean, it's nice to get compliments, it's nice to be appreciated, but I dunno, I'm not the most introspective guy. I don't think about why I do it and what does feedback mean to me? I just get these stories and ideas in my head and I want to get them out in some way. I'm happy that I don't have a deeper connection with my feelings when it comes to art because I'm so emotionally invested as it is. If I would get so existential about it and so introspective about it, I would just lose my mind and get even more obsessed about it. Can you follow what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 (00:28:20):

Yeah, absolutely. And besides let art teachers get obsessed with that part for you.

Speaker 3 (00:28:26):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:28:27):

So how long does it normally take you say from the moment a band like Testament contacts you until there's something finished

Speaker 3 (00:28:37):

With a band like Testament? We usually start very early in advance. I mean, when we did Dark Quotes of Earth, we even had the artwork before the music was written. I mean, they had a few riffs and a few paragraphs of maybe one song I think, but they had the artwork already finished and they ended up printing the album cover and hanging it up at the rehearsal room and thinking about what music would fit this album cover. So this was a huge compliment, but there an anomaly. This is not the way we usually do things.

Speaker 2 (00:29:11):

What's usual?

Speaker 3 (00:29:12):

Oh, I think what is usual is that we have to wait a few months because of prior booked projects. And then when we start talking about concepts and when I start to make rough drafts, it can range from a couple of weeks to more than a month. We usually start out with a raw black and white sketch that I do as quickly as possible just to get the composition down. I mean, I just draw a thumbnail and once that gets greenlighted, I move on to setting up the color scheme and then when that gets greenlighted, I move on to details. So it's like basically those are the three main stages

Speaker 2 (00:29:56):

And you said it kind of around a month-ish,

Speaker 3 (00:30:00):

Sometimes you've got more than it in order to get things right. I mean when you have the luxury of working for more than a month, because as I said with Testament, we started out so early that we had tons of time to go over the details, change a few stuff. I have no idea how many months it took, but that's only because we had the time. They kept on getting two offers and went out on tour, came back, recorded some more, went out on tour, recorded some more. So we ended up having these months, extra months to work on it. But that's not the usual way we do it.

Speaker 2 (00:30:35):

So in audio revisions mean that everybody knows that you can change almost everything. And so sometimes revisions can be very, very long and very, very tedious, but I don't understand how that could possibly work with paintings. So what do you do if what you're sending isn't exactly what they were looking for?

Speaker 3 (00:31:01):

You have very long talks in the beginning. I mean, setting up expectations is very important because you need to make sure that you are all set up from the get-go and start off building stuff gradually with, as I said, do a thumbnail first, do a raw sketch first and move on to details only at the last, very last stage.

Speaker 2 (00:31:25):

Can you tell me a little bit about what kinds of questions you ask them in these long conversations?

Speaker 3 (00:31:31):

I mean, usually we go over the lyrics we go over, if they contacted me, I usually ask them, what are the stuff on my portfolio that you liked that made you write me? And so I can sense mean ballpark wise, their taste in visual art. I mean we just have a normal conversation usually about what led them to record this album. I mean, where were they mentally, in which state? I mean is this album about anger and frustration? Is this album about whatever? I mean, what was the driving force? Usually you talk about the lyrical content because that way it's easier for them to explain it in words. But listening to the pre-production samples and demos is very important to me because you can see colors in sound I think. And if you match it in the right way, then it can be something that will stand the test of time. I mean to this day, right, the lightning sounds blue to me and Master of Puppet Sounds Brown.

Speaker 2 (00:32:46):

Interesting,

Speaker 3 (00:32:46):

Doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (00:32:47):

Yeah, it actually does. When I think about it in Black Album, sounds Black strangely enough. Do you ever encounter a scenario? I know producers encounter this, mixers encounter this where somebody asks you to do something in the style of somebody else. So they tell you all these album covers they love

Speaker 3 (00:33:08):

And

Speaker 2 (00:33:08):

They want it to be like this meets this or something. Or HR Geiger meets, I don't know, Picasso meets Morbid Angel altars of Madness cover or something, or a bunch of stuff that's not you and they want stuff that's not your style. Mixers get this all the time when they'll play records from a bunch of bands that they love by the one guy mix to another mixer and they want him to mix it in that guy's style. It's like, well, why didn't you go to that guy instead? Do you ever encounter that situation?

Speaker 3 (00:33:46):

I think this is something that happened more frequently earlier on, but as gradually faded out with time. But even back then, you know how it's like at some point you need to say yes to every project you are offered and then you take a few of these. I think it's the same in sound, and it's the same with every independent small business that you have. And with the time you get to be picky, you get to choose what you want to do. And sometimes if somebody says, I like your art, but my vision has a little bit of gigger in it, a little bit of hinky or whatever, sometimes I'm a major fan of these artists as well and I can see the essence of it and see why are they drawn to these artists and why I was drawn to these artists as well and how to incorporate it into what we do together in order to create something unique that stands on its own and doesn't feel like maybe it could feel like a homage, but not like a ripoff, not like a second eight. Did you have it when you were just starting out that you had to swallow this frog? And just

Speaker 2 (00:35:02):

Even when I was not starting out, if the band was good sometimes, I mean there are a few times where I said, well just go to that other guy. I can't do this. And it does happen less and less as you build

Speaker 3 (00:35:19):

Because

Speaker 2 (00:35:19):

At the beginning they're going to you not because they want to go to you, they're going to, they can't reach or afford the person they really want. And so since you know that they can't do that anyways, you're stuck with each other. And so I think that being the case, you should take the job just because they don't have a choice and you don't have a choice really. But when you're bigger and the bands are bigger, it's better for everyone to be happy. You don't want a bigger band to have a bad experience

Speaker 3 (00:35:53):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (00:35:54):

And then go telling all their friends not to work with you. So I think it's a lot for self-preservation. It's important to send the right people away if there's somebody else who would be better for a job, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:36:08):

But at the same time, you can look at it from another direction and say, okay, maybe this is a challenge for me. Meanwhile, I was always into this producer and I wanted to get a little bit of a sound into my work as well and just use it as a way of experimenting a little bit and just broaden your sonic vocabulary.

Speaker 2 (00:36:34):

Yeah. So where's the fine line? I

Speaker 3 (00:36:35):

Mean, you'll have to set it. I mean you can feel it in your heart if you are excited about something. So my neighbor just wrote me earlier today that there's no word for excited in German, which makes perfect sense

Speaker 2 (00:36:49):

Really.

Speaker 3 (00:36:50):

Yeah. But basically if

Speaker 2 (00:36:53):

You are, I'm sorry, Germans,

Speaker 3 (00:36:55):

If you are excited about it, then yeah, I mean I think experimenting is something that is so dear to me in this profession and in any artistic endeavor I think because I think that even in art movement that you get stagnation with time, I usually contributed to lack of experimentation. I can think you can see it in modern metal even. Because after a while, two things happen. First thing is modern production got to a point where people can just say, okay, we're so influenced by this band and our drummer is really influenced by that band, and they can pretty much get that same sound. And once they get that same sound, they stop experimenting and trying to figure out different stuff. And before the technology was in this point, I remember I used to go with bands into studios in the nineties and everybody would a B with far beyond driven and nobody would get the same results.

(00:38:00):

The technology was not there yet. So they had to tweak around until they got to a point where they stumbled upon something that just happened to work and sound good on its own. And I think it's the same thing with even heavy metal vocals because at a certain point, if you remember, if you were listening to the first Metallica demo, James is singing like melodic, you want to sound like the new wave of British heavy metal. He was going, but it never worked because he has his flaws. He couldn't quite pull it off. So we had to experiment until the point when he was just shouting. And that's how you get flash metal. And nowadays it feels like, I mean I'm a huge fan of Def Metal and Black Metal and hardcore and I think the first couple of decades from each and every one of these genres, each and every band was so unique and sounded nothing like all of the other peers. But today people are just content with sounding professional, with sounding like the favorite screamers sounding like the favorite death metal singers.

Speaker 2 (00:39:10):

I think what you're saying is right to a degree, but there's always going to be great artists. The only thing, like for instance, arc Spire are phenomenal at Death Metal. There's a lot of great bands like them that are coming around. But the difference between now and back in the past is that the little shitty bands that copy everybody didn't get as much of a chance to cause what I call static didn't basically cloud the waters.

Speaker 3 (00:39:44):

I don't think it's only the shitty bands because I've been going, I mean at the end of every year I go through bands through everybody's end of year lists, and I listen to what everybody thinks their best 10 albums of the year or what 20 albums of the year were. And I can't tell these vocalists apart for the most of the time, even if the album is very highly regarded. And I think the key to escaping this stagnation is to keep your influences outside. I mean, you brought up, I do

Speaker 2 (00:40:18):

Agree with that.

Speaker 3 (00:40:19):

Spire basically sound like Origin and Busta Rhymes when it comes to the vocals.

Speaker 2 (00:40:25):

It's true.

Speaker 3 (00:40:26):

So by harnessing outside influences, you get something original. And this is why I said that the first few decades of deaf metal were guys who really sounded like themselves because basically it was a bunch of guys who watched tons of horror movies. And in each and every one of these horror movies, you have the little girl in the Exorcist. And when she's possessed, it's not a growl, it's a pitch shifter effect. So they wanted to sound like the horror movies. They wanted to mimic the pitch shifter effect. So they had to experiment with their own voice until they reached something that sounded close to it. And that's how you got the first wave of death. Metal singers, they wanted to push the envelope, sound scarier than the other guys sound different than the other guys. And they never tried to sound exactly like the other guys because there was no bar set already. The influences were from the outside.

Speaker 2 (00:41:27):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy UM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. At the beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God, Opeth, Shuga, bring Me the Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air.

(00:42:16):

You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use of your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain staging, mastering loan and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy slash enhanced to find out more. The competition within Styles goes back to Beatles and Rolling Stones and Elvis bands. I agree completely that to create something new, it's usually you take two different things that didn't normally go together and you have something brand new, but this competition between bands to outdo each other, that will always be there and has always been there.

Speaker 3 (00:43:52):

No, the competition is great, but matching the competition, just sounding okay, I want to sound like exactly like my favorite band.

Speaker 2 (00:44:00):

That's actually my point too though, is that nowadays way more of these bands have a chance to even be heard. So even if they're not doing something original, but they're doing something competent, sometimes the listening, and I guess it's exactly what you said, that being professional is sometimes enough, but I think that that's what you're hearing is that a lot of these copycat bands, they wouldn't have even had a chance in the older industry, but now they do have a chance and they have the internet and they're able to get their selves out there. I do like the way things are now better, but no matter what system you're using, there's going to be a downside. The downside to the system before is that there were so few spots available for bands that great bands could go unnoticed because there weren't that many outlets for bands nowadays, there's too many outlets for bands, so lots of mediocre bands get too noticed, which leads to the same problem I guess, which is that a band like Arc Spire, which is totally unique and awesome, doesn't get enough attention. So you end up in the same place almost.

Speaker 3 (00:45:12):

But I don't know, I'm more worried about the peaks because I mean, when you say that you prefer how things are today, if I go through your top 50 favorite albums of all time, how many of them are from the last few years?

Speaker 2 (00:45:27):

I wouldn't know because they haven't been around long enough. I can't tell you what my favorite albums of all time are involving the last five, 10 years because it hasn't been long enough to say all time.

Speaker 3 (00:45:39):

And maybe we just get older and we're becoming a little bit jaded as well, which makes sense.

Speaker 2 (00:45:44):

It could be, but I really do think there's a lot of great music out there being made. I do know what you're talking about with, there was a time period when modern recording first started to get better and easier to access in the 2005 through 2000 13, 14, 15, those 10 years were the home recording explosion and suddenly all these people who were not qualified to be engineers or be in bands that were noticed were making music

Speaker 3 (00:46:16):

And

Speaker 2 (00:46:16):

Were getting noticed. And it kind of started to, I dunno, it started to scare everyone into thinking that the sky is falling and that there's no future and that new bands are terrible and that new productions are garbage. And I think that that was very real for a little while, but I do think that it's starting to turn around. I think that that generation who created that garbage is now starting to not be of age anymore.

Speaker 3 (00:46:51):

I would love to get some recommendations from you to exciting new stuff other than Alex. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:46:56):

I'll give you some after the podcast for sure.

Speaker 3 (00:46:59):

I would love that. Thanks.

Speaker 2 (00:47:00):

But I think that there's a new generation coming up who are just taking things further. It seems like music's getting more creative again. And also the income from music with streaming is starting to match what physical sales used to be. So for the first time in a long time, the industry's starting to grow, which means that greater rewards means that higher talent, more capable talents are going to be attracted to making music. Whereas for the past 10, 15 years, a lot of people who were very talented were leaving music because they thought it had no future. But now you have a climate where there's rewards again or the rewards are starting to accumulate again. And so you're going to see more talented people putting their talents into it. I think it's headed in a good direction, and I could be wrong,

Speaker 3 (00:47:55):

But I get the panic element of it because when something changes, we have to reevaluate where we stand, where our future stands, who we are, et cetera. And even with, there are tons of misconceptions about it because even with what I do, I get tons of questions about is visual out really needed in 2019 when it comes to music? And people ask me, do you even get any jobs? And I was like, the offers are better now than how they were back then because right now, because of this competition, bands are looking for ways to stand out because music at this point is voluntary.

(00:48:50):

I mean, you can be exposed to it if you listen to the radio, but if you get turned on to new music through social media for talking to your friends, you have to agree to play this track to, I mean, if you're on Facebook and somebody shares their favorite song on YouTube, you have to make the decision to play it. But visual art is not voluntary at this point. You just get exposed to it. You go online and you see stuff. So this is people's opportunity to have something that will draw people in and make them listen to your music.

Speaker 2 (00:49:29):

And you're an actual artist as opposed to just a graphic designer. And I think that you probably, in what you do, you experience the same thing that we did in recording, which is that suddenly it became a lot cheaper to do things. And photography, same thing in photography, became a lot easier to do mediocre work. And so I'm sure that at one point you started having to compete with people that kind of suck, who were not real artists, same as with a bunch of recording engineers had to deal with this, photographers had to deal with this. But I think at the end of the day, you're winning because you are a real artist and you make your clients happy and they love your work and that you do that long enough and you will outlive shitty trends like horrible graphic design for instance.

Speaker 3 (00:50:24):

I think the key to it is getting the balance between feeding your artistic desires and making other people happy is to pick the right projects. Because in the beginning I would be, I was so into the Pink Floyd aesthetics and I would walk with def metal bands and I would try to force this one when I was just starting out first couple of years maybe I would try to force this aesthetic on a project that doesn't fit just because I was not really into this specific band. But after a while, when you get to walk on stuff that you really am excited about, when I was working with Def Metal bands that I was really into, and not just local bands that I had to take because I needed the walk, I would be just so immersed into it that I would not need to go to my safe places when I would use the stuff that I'm used to, but actually be a part of a team, be a part of a collaboration, think about what will benefit this record. And this is how I came up with somewhat of my favorite stuff for bands like Haiti Eternal and Incantation. That's because I was aware of what I love about death, metal aesthetics and how can I contribute to it and push it further. And same thing with Spire as well.

Speaker 2 (00:51:48):

So you bring up an interesting point about teamwork and how important it is for you to be able to work at a team. And that's something that I think is important no matter what role you inhabit in this, whether you're a guy in a band or the manager or the producer, everyone has to understand their place and their role in making everything work. And you very rarely can have people that just say my way or the highway, go fuck yourself. Everybody else. I mean, there's a lot of people who try to be that way, but in the end, in most successful situations, that doesn't work out. However, at the beginning of this podcast, we're talking all about being obsessed and so singularly mindedly focused. That sounded weird, but having such a singular focus, it's kind of hard to be a team player when you're that focused. Because when you're that focused, you kind of need to have a very strong vision for what's right and for where something should go

Speaker 3 (00:52:59):

Unless you are so inspired and excited about the team's vision as well. So this is the same hack I was just telling you about getting the right projects that your expectations meet their expectation because you both actually look at it as a collaboration. You are both excited to be doing this thing together. And that just overrides because I'm not naturally a team player. I'm not naturally a guy who plays well with others, but because I love this music, because I love the bands that I work with, I just come to it from a very healthy place of a place where I, me and them share the same vision about what would benefit this record.

Speaker 2 (00:53:46):

I think that that's a great way to put it, a hack because learning or being a team player is something you can totally learn how to do. It's not something like talent that either you have or you don't have. It's a skill that you can learn and you have to learn.

Speaker 3 (00:54:02):

And this is another thing that brings us back to what you said about all of this self-help, how to network, how to be better at self-confidence, how to be better at, I mean, all of those fake till you make it YouTube instructors that you have right now, that they just look like, I dunno, pale version of somebody who tries to act in a certain way. And at the end, if you listen to tons of them, it contradicts itself because they basically all go for the fake it till you make it a po. But at the end they tell you, and you know what? People are really drawn to people who are genuine. So at the end, be in a genuine position, work hard in order to get yourself to a place where you don't need to fake being excited about walking in this team because you really want to be there. You really want to walk with these guys because you appreciate them, you appreciate the music, you appreciate their craft, and you are excited about doing it together.

Speaker 2 (00:55:02):

Well, I think fake it till you make it. There's a way to do it right, and a way to do it wrong. And the way that you just said it is the way to do it wrong, which is to be fake about your excitement, lie to people about that and totally. But the way that you can get away with it is say that you are very excited about something and you know that you can kill it, but you may not have as much experience as they think they're looking for. And you're a hundred percent sure that you can crush this project.

Speaker 3 (00:55:33):

Okay, I get it.

Speaker 2 (00:55:34):

But you just won't get that chance though because you don't have as much experience. You can fake that one until you make it. I mean, tons of successful people have done that version of fake until you make it. I have a few times it works. And it's not a lack of being genuine, it's just the other person doesn't understand what you're going to bring to the table because they don't know you yet. And so you're actually doing them a favor by stretching the truth because you're going to do such a great job for them that they're going to be really, really happy that they took a chance on you, but they won't take a chance on you unless you say some what they're wanting to hear because you're lack of experience or whatever it is, could scare them. So that's the way that I look at fake it till you make it. But that's what I mean when I tell people to do it the way that you said it. I definitely think people should not do. And I mean that is kind of being a bit of a punisher and you see a lot of it, and especially at trade shows like Nam, and it sucks. Nobody likes it.

Speaker 3 (00:56:37):

I can only imagine. I was never in a situation like that, but I'm not knocking down people who are into marketing, who are into progressing professionally. Some people are really excited about getting better at being a professional, but if you are not, then I think it's better usage of your time to just get so good at your craft that you'll end up in situations where you don't need to fake anything.

Speaker 2 (00:57:09):

Yeah. I guess the one thing though is if you have a job where you don't have to be next to the band at all day long, you can get away with being a little bit more of a weirdo. But

(00:57:25):

Say a recording engineer can't do that because they have to sit there with a band all day, every day they have to. So if band you don't feel like being social, you have to fake it. You can't actually, I just got off with Tom Lord algae, and one thing that we were talking about was that as an intern, what's the biggest thing that an intern needs to learn how to do in order to not get fired? And he said, it's shut your mouth. And it doesn't matter if your dog just died or your girlfriend broke up with you. Every day is a good day and you have to take that vibe with you to the studio. Whereas if you're just the mixer, a lot of the times you're working by yourself. So if you're in a bad mood or don't feel like being around people or whatever, you can kind of shield other people from that. I imagine it's the same with being an artist, but there still comes a point where you have to be in contact with them. And if you're not cool, they might not come back to you. They just might not. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:58:32):

I'm not saying be an asshole and just disregard the basic laws of human interaction.

Speaker 2 (00:58:38):

Fair enough.

Speaker 3 (00:58:38):

But yeah, just use common sense seriously. Just act as if you would like to be treated. And that's like as long

Speaker 2 (00:58:47):

As you're not a masochist.

Speaker 3 (00:58:48):

Yeah. Never thought about it. Just my entire argument just crumbled.

Speaker 2 (00:58:53):

I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3 (00:58:54):

I need to regroup and think about it. No, but yeah, what you're saying about, yeah, because I'm in a position where I can be a weirdo because I don't have this day-to-day interaction. I made most of my album covers, like wearing sweatpants. That's just the way it is. And I couldn't pull the same thing off here. If I was an intern in a studio environment. Yeah, I totally get it.

Speaker 2 (00:59:17):

You have to do the customer service thing, which does involve a little bit of fakeness at times. But the thing that's not fake is, or should not be fake is your passion for what it is that you're doing, in my opinion. So even if the recording engineer is having a bad day, but they can't show it because they can't vibe out the band, the passion for recording shouldn't be affected by a bad day.

Speaker 3 (00:59:48):

Maybe the key is just not, just don't act like somebody else, but filter the stuff about you that won't contribute to this very moment.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):

That's a good one. I've actually been working on that a lot for the past 10 years maybe.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):

Have you been punishing?

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):

No, I don't think I've ever really been a punisher, but I think that I'm intense. I'm very intense. I can be very deadly with my words and I have very high standards and I expect a lot out of people. And when I was younger, that sometimes came out in not the best ways because I didn't know how to process my frustration with people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):

But maybe you made friends for life because of it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):

I did, because there are people who have understood me, we understand each other.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):

So maybe that's the same thing, like high stakes, high losses, but high rewards as well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):

Absolutely. But I do have to say that my life is better now that I've kind of learned to filter myself more and not say things that will completely crush somebody just because.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):

But when to turn it on, when to turn it on in order to achieve these high peaks of creativity, of connection

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):

To a degree. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):

Alright.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):

It's not gone at all, so it might not seem like it, but what I do now still requires me to be creative. When I was writing music, it's a different type of creativity, but the engine that runs it is the same. It's still the same thing that keeps me up at night and keeps me thinking all day long about it. And that I'm always trying to find ways to do things better, differently, all that same stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):

And if you don't find an outlet, you can be creative with your frequent flyer miles.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):

No, that's definitely So I don't go crazy. I always find a way to make this stuff work. That's why it's successful. But I guess I'm just saying that it's the same thing. And so there's lots of opportunities still for me to be that way with people. And I think that the fact that I've toned it down or toned it down and refined it is part of why URMs working. Because if I acted in URM, the way I acted in my twenties,

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):

Right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):

Yeah. Who knows?

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):

But don't you get sometimes great ideas or even make good steps when you are stressed, when you are super worried, when you're super not in your zone, not in your flowing state or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):

A hundred percent. And also not everybody always agrees with me on these ideas and I know I'm right and I have to fight because them being wrong about this and winning could change everything. And this is very similar to being in a band or I think being a film director or whatever producer is, if you have a vision for something, it's your vision. Hopefully everyone can get on board, but really only you can see what's in your mind. Only you can hear the music in your head. So a great leader helps other people understand it their own way, but that's not always possible. And sometimes people just need to go along if you're right. And you have to be able to stand up for what you think is right, because if not bad ideas can win. I am glad that I know how to turn it on, but I try not to turn it on when I don't need to. Let's put it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):

I totally get it. And even with my walk, have you seen what I did last year with Blood Bath?

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):

No, I'm going to look now though.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):

It's basically about, I mean the album title is The Era of Satan is Drawn. They just gave me the album title and they said, just come up with whatever you think is your interpretation of the album title. And I just had a kid

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):

That looks sick

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):

And the first year, thank you. And the first year of having a kid was, I mean, the thing with, do you call it caught death or crib death, you think about

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):

It, death all the time. Crib

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):

Death. You think about it all the time. And because it's like for the first year, just some babies who wake up

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):

Sids sudden infant death syndrome.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. We bottled the equipment, the stuff that beeps when he stops breathing for a second and we have a baby monitor on him with a camera and we hear him when he's sleeping and whatever. So that was in the back of my mind when I was,

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):

That's kind of creepy now that I see this cover and you're telling me that

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):

Because that was my visual vocabulary at that point in time. And so when they came to me with this album title, I was like, okay, the arrow of Satan is drawn. I don't want to do a direct interpretation, like a literal interpretation of album titles. Never. That never looks good. It always come out silly and cheesy. So I was like, okay, just Satan is waging a war, which is drawing the arrow, waging a war on the innocent or the righteous. So I said, okay. He would just strike the first born when they're sleeping. And that was born out of a year of basically being anxious and worried. And I mean, fear was a big thing from the moment I woke up to the moment I managed to get to sleep. And I think that's a good way to channel that, the negativity.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):

That's one of the best ways I think to channel the negativity. I mean, what would you do if you didn't have that outlet?

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):

It would multiply itself because I would be so unhappy with the stuff I would come up with creatively, but still be worried. I mean, at the same time, and this is the album cover I'm most proud of the last year because it was just, I don't know, it just looks different. And I felt, I was excited about the idea from the moment I thought about it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):

When you came up with it, were you thinking directly? Were you thinking, this is what I just went through or I'm going through, that's how it's linked or the idea just came to you?

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):

It just came to me, but this is very bargain being psychology, but it has to be because of the first year of being a dad, because of thinking about crypto so much, it has to creep into your mind and change your subconscious. But this is a very literal way of it, and I guess this is a good order to all the negative stuff. I mean, I did some stuff about Insanity last year as well. The album I did with Sai and another album cover I did for a band called Artisan.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):

What are the names of the albums?

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):

The album from Artisan is called The Hangman. It's a single, I can't remember how I came up with it. It's

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):

Not coming up. I guess there's so many things called the Hangman or Artisan.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):

Ah, yeah, artisan With a Z.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):

Oh, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):

So I can't remember. But I was probably thinking about death a lot during that time, but I never think too much about it. I never read too deeply into my own subconscious. I just look at it as stories. I just have these stories that pop into my head

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):

And nothing fucked up about that one.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):

Thanks. Most of the time you take a shower and you think about something twisted and weird, and then I have to think about, have I seen it yet? Have I seen it on something else? And if I never ever seen it on an album cover or as a painting in any way, I just go out and flesh it out and even I usually just catch it out and I will find the right project to pitch it for. I mean, usually bands write to me and they tell me about the lyrics. They tell me about the album title, and I usually go, okay, I had this idea in my head for a while. Let's try and fit this into what you are going for. Because usually if you are a band and you are looking for a visual artist, you are looking for somebody who will bring his own interpretation.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):

And I can confirm that's true. The guy that my band used to hire is named Jordan Haley.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):

I love the stuff he did on your guitar.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):

Oh yeah, he's great

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):

On the Iceman.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):

Yeah, it was awesome. Have you seen his site, bird of Prey?

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):

Yeah, I have. I think he does jewelry as well, right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):

Yeah, lots of jewelry. I think he's great. But it's true. The reason I worked with him was because I know that whatever idea I give, it's his interpretation is going to be something that he's definitely going to bring no matter what I say. That interpretation's coming and it's generally something I really, really like. I think that that's absolutely true. I've learned that you don't want an artist who's going to just listen to you Exactly, because you probably don't have great ideas. That's why you're not the artist. But

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):

Sometimes you are. You brought up Testament earlier, and Eric actually is the one who does all the album covers with me, and he's got a great visual taste, and he is actually very talented when it comes to visuals. The first album we did together, which was Formation of the Nation, he did the initial sketch with pencils, and I think I just colored over it. I don't think I even changed anything on his original composition. I just painted on top of it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):

How often does that happen though?

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):

Rarely. But when it happens, it's amazing because it's not about ego. You want to do what's best for the record. I mean, when you do it from this angle of being a huge fan of albums, when you do it from this angle of being a huge fan of music, you care more about the record than you care about putting your artistic stamp on it because there's no room for ego when it comes to making a great record. I think.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):

Yeah, I mean, it's the same as when a band comes to a producer and they've written an incredible song that doesn't need changing. It doesn't need much changing, it just needs production. It's important to know your role and if your role is not to come up with the original idea because someone already made the sketch and the sketch is great, you just need to bring it to life. I think it's very mature to understand that. But like you said, you also said about Testament earlier that that whole situation is a rare one where you get to do stuff far in advance and just sounds like Testament is kind of their own thing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):

But it's rewarding at the end because this is one of my most popular pieces and people, I just see it in exhibitions. People come to me and they show me the tattoos of it, and this is amazing to see. But when it comes to what you said about producing, when you get a huge song, what we do is basically we are all multipliers serving a song. If the main thing about the record is the song, then everything that we do, whether if it's production or the logo or the band photo or the artwork, we can add another dimension to it that will inspire the viewers imagination and getting closer to what the artist, the band had in mind. But if the song is not there, then we are just multiplying by zero and we'll get zero. But if the song is, yeah, we're all fucked for sure, but sometimes the song is just so, so great.

(01:12:25):

I mean, you talked about the Black album and the album cover didn't inspire anybody to tattoo it on themselves, but Enter Sandman is just so catchy that it didn't even matter. So when people ask me about the importance of artwork, I think it's the same as the important of production or band photos. I mean, nothing part of the song is mandatory, but everything could be potentially crucial. I mean, when you talk about how important can an album cover be, just ask Iron Maiden. If you want to ask how important can a drawing of a skull can be? Ask the misfits. How important can a top hat can be just Ask slash or how important can be a pointy bra? Ask Madonna. Anything can be a good multiplier when it comes to the song, but you need to have the song that will connect with people and then is where we step in and we can be important too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):

So I guess that definitely reinforces what you said earlier about working with good projects that you're excited about because there's also much more of a possibility that there's going to be a good song involved.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):

Yeah, for sure. And it benefits both parties because all the amazing artwork that Iron Maiden had wouldn't go anywhere if the songs never connected with anybody. And same with the Misfits. It has to be this rare occasion where everything else and the music work together.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):

So speaking of, I guess that your role is to multiply, it's kind of like a force multiplier. I like thinking about it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):

Yeah, my grandmother was a math teacher, so I guess it's easier to me to visualize stuff in this way.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):

Yeah, it makes sense. So the art is, obviously it's your take on things like the crib, but it's through their, I don't want to say medium, but the platform that they're providing. So at the end of the day, when it's all done, approved, printed, you're onto the next thing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):

Where

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):

Do the originals go? Do you hang on to them? Do you sell them? Do you care about them?

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):

I do, but a lot of my stuff I do in a way of, it's mixed media that at the end I have to involve digital painting as well over them. So some of these album covers don't even have an original, and it couples with the fact that originals are problematic to have. In all of my exhibitions that I do are in heavy metal festivals, and in these settings it's problematic to bring originals.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):

You definitely don't want to bring them

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):

For sure. You don't want to be in a situation, it's like, oh, you spilled beer on it, you just bought it with a print. It's better to have this conflict because it's not a one of a kind. But even with the prints, I make sure that everything is like exactly, it would be the original. And this is something kind of new when it comes to the world of music festivals because I mean, we only started doing exhibitions over the last, I think four years or so. I've seen it pop up in many European festivals, but it's amazing to see how people react to it. It's amazing to see, I mean, the surprise people have on their faces when they see this album cover that they used to see it only on their phone, they see it all framed and hanged on the wall, and people just stand next to it and just stare at it for minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):

I've had that experience as well. I mean, when you see that, first of all, sometimes when you see the scale of these things, because you're used to seeing it like thumbnail size or iPhone size, you're not used to seeing it large. It can be very, very impressive and very striking.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):

But that's another thing that helped me get my work to become better, the whole phone thing. Because if your composition looks good as a thumbnail, when you look at it over the phone, then it won't crumble when you look at it from far away, when you don't get to see this piece of art not up close and composition and basic structure of things that you need to step away a little bit from. So I actually been using the phone in order to get my composition to compositions to be better.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):

I think it would be the same thing as in audio listening on consumer speakers at some point just to make sure that everything's okay in the consumer realm. I think it's a similar sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):

Yeah, for sure. Because it's all basically what wave forms and visual forms. It's all, it's the same thing. I mean, we all deal with dynamics. We all use shadows and lights, we all use composition and buildup and storytelling devices,

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):

And it's all going to be displayed in a less than ideal medium or in a less than ideal setting. So you have to optimize for it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):

And plus, I think limitations, you can just convert them into challenges and they sometimes even can drive your creative force because sometimes it's like option paralysis when you have a lot of time when you have free hand to do whatever you want, where there are no limitations, it's hard to just get started even So do you know that Kelvin and Hobbs strip? Yeah, of course. When Kelvin says Creating art should be in only this one specific state of creativity and hos asks him, what kind of state is it? And it's like last minute panic.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):

There's a little bit of truth, but a lot of untruth to that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):

Oh, well, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):

Some projects are for sure ended up being horrible because they were rushed, but some people just need the right incentive to get things done.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):

I think we're at a good place to end it, but I want to ask you this one last thing. Sure. Because you brought it up. So yeah, I totally agree with you. Working in a set of a last minute panic is a bad idea and it's a quick recipe for ruining things. And the hardest thing to do sometimes it's just get started. How do you get yourself started when you're not feeling inspired or excited that day You could be excited about a project, but just not feeling into it that particular day. And how do you get yourself there?

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):

What helps me specifically is that I just step away from even pencil and paper when I'm thinking about the initial concept. If you look at me from the side, when I come up with these initial concepts, you'll see me just walking dog going around in my apartment in circles, like an insane person thinking about the concept. And I think this helps me be in a situation where I need to figure it out in order to sit down and do the actual walk, actual starting to draw, starting to paint. And I think this method is very much beneficial to keeping a balance between your walk and the conceptualizing stage.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):

I totally agree with you. It's funny to me that sometimes people say just power through it. Sometimes that's not the way to turn the light bulb on. Sometimes you turn the light bulb on by getting some distance.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):

No, in my situation, you just don't even start. You just go around your apartment in circles thinking about stuff. And the thing is, it works like a spring because at the point where you get this idea, you are just so excited about sitting down and do it, that it acts as like fire under your belly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):

So basically what you're saying is you know how to get the engine going when it doesn't want to go.

Speaker 3 (01:21:05):

Yeah, because physically you just want to sit down. You just want to get started on the walk. You are so excited about leaving this stage and moving on to the next, and then you are just physically happy about changing this state, physical state. You are happy to go on and start working on your idea. And it's rewarding as well. You feel like, okay, I'm done. It's like marking a V next to a step next to a stage.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):

So when you're not feeling into it, you don't just sit down and do it. What you do is you, I

Speaker 3 (01:21:38):

Never sketch. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):

You get yourself into it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:40):

Yeah. I never sit down with a piece of paper and just scribble away. And this connects a little bit with what I said earlier about getting good at your craft. I'm not even talking about practicing, I'm talking about experimenting because I never practice if, because I know that if I would just sit all day and draw skulls in order to get so good at it, that when the album cover comes that I need to paint a skull, it'll be so perfect. I would do it out of, when I do it, I will do it out of a memory muscle and it'll lack the excitement and that initial spark of experimentation about it. So basically a lot of the stuff I do when I do it, I do it for the first time because I never practice it. It's kind of problematic because you have to learn it as you go along.

(01:22:35):

So you ended up redoing a lot of stuff, but when you come up with something that sticks, it's already on the canvas. It's already there. And you are so excited about it because it's like bands that have this sound about them, this energy about them in their demo, but then they never carry it out to the first album. There's something about this initial raw, primal spark of doing something for the first time. Being in a territory where it's uncharted for you in a place where you are not in your comfort zone. It opens up a door for happy accidents, and that's how you cheat in getting something original. That's another hack.

Speaker 2 (01:23:22):

That's a good one. That's a very, very good one. I like it. You don't play, you just get right to it. And if you're not ready to get right to it, you get yourself ready.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):

You play while the project is on. It's like you play when the stakes are high and it puts the pressure on you and you can convert, converted into excitement.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):

Well, that's awesome and let's end it at that. It's been great talking to you. Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming with you as well, man.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):

I'm glad we finally did it. Glad to.

Speaker 1 (01:23:54):

This episode of the Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast has been brought to you by tele Funken Electro Electroacoustic Tele Funkin. Electroacoustic has been following the tradition of excellence and innovation set forth by the original tele Funken gm BH of Germany that began over 100 years ago with one foot rooted in the rich history of the brand and the other in new microphone innovations for both stage and studio applications. Tele Funkin Electroacoustic is recognized as one of the industry leaders in top quality microphones. For more info, go to t funk.com. If you like the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, make sure you leave us a review, subscribe and send us a message if you want to get in touch.