SHAN DAN HORAN: From Obama’s Marketing Team to Metal, What Labels Look For, How Bands Can Stand Out

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Hairball Audio. For nearly a decade, hairball Audio has been helping musicians and recording studios improve their recordings by offering high quality outboard recording equipment in Do-it-yourself kit form. Check out the full line of compressors, mic pre amplifiers, and do it yourself [email protected]. Hairball audio. Do It Yourself Without compromise. This episode of the podcast is also brought to you by Sure, legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones and headphones. Sure. The most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure.com. And now your host, Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:00:50):

Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like TH of God, Ms. Suga Periphery A Day to Remember, bring me the Horizon, Opeth many, many more, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multi-tracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. I love the episodes where I get to talk to non audio people who are doing really cool things in the music industry because it just brings a different perspective.

(00:01:41):

And I like to give you guys, I guess, enlightenment from the other side of the glass or the fence as well. I want you to know what the people that are going to be hiring you think about this. For those of you that are trying to be professional producers or professional musicians, I want you to hear from the people that are going to be the gatekeepers in your careers. So on today I've got Mr. Shan Dan Horan, someone that I've known at an arm's length for like 10 years now. This is the first time I've gotten to really talk to him, and we've almost talked many, many times. We run in the same circles. We just keep missing each other. And this guy's impressive. He's done a lot of stuff. I mean, dating back to before he was in the music industry, he worked in corporate marketing in Chicago for Barack Obama as well as McDonald's.

(00:02:37):

And he worked at Century Media for about five years on releases for in this moment, arch me suicide silence. Then he became the president of Art recordings for like five years, worked releases for slaves. I wrestled a Bear once, was the president of Outer Loop Records for one year, worked on releases for the agony scene in Lorna Shore. He's currently the president of Shadow Born Group and has directed music videos for John Malicamp, devil Driver, Exodus and Buck Cherry among others. And he's currently shooting and looking for 10 bands to feature on his TV show Musician Rescue, which the trailer for that is in the show notes. So without further ado, I give you Shan Dan Horan Shan Dan Horan, welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. How are you doing today?

Speaker 3 (00:03:31):

Doing good. How are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:03:33):

Not bad man, and doing well. And I just wanted to thank you for allowing slaves to come on nail the mix, and I'm stoked to have you on. We've been talking online for years now, and I feel like we keep on almost doing this and we've almost worked together a bunch of times. We just keep on driving by each other. But finally, something worked out and both slaves on Nail the mix and you on the podcast, so I'm stoked.

Speaker 3 (00:04:03):

Yeah, absolutely. We have been talking for years and I feel like we just slightly miss each other. I'll work at different labels and you'll work on projects just before my time or just after or something like that. So it's great to finally kind of catch up and just meet up for an actual project.

Speaker 2 (00:04:22):

Yeah, it is really, really cool. And I feel like the first time I heard of you was when you were still strictly a videographer, and I believe that I was being managed by Blasco back when I was doing production, and I think that you started getting managed by mercenary management at the same time. Does that sound accurate?

Speaker 3 (00:04:48):

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. So I mean, the funny thing is videography has always been something that I've really loved to do within my career path. It's interesting where you work in the industry and let's say you'll need a video of some sort and that you can't rely on a specific person for it, so you kind of just teach yourself how to do it. What has happened essentially in my career is kind of that I went into college for marketing, was working strictly in the business side of things, and then I just tended to be really good at that creative side. And ever since then is just videos always pulled me that direction. And then the music industry has pulled me a different one. So it's kind of funny to walk the middle ground as well.

Speaker 2 (00:05:33):

So you were a business person first, and then you kind of started to do the art side because people were letting you down and you

Speaker 3 (00:05:43):

Gravitated

Speaker 2 (00:05:44):

Towards it anyways.

Speaker 3 (00:05:45):

Absolutely. So yeah, I went to college and I graduated with a degree in marketing. So essentially what I did was I moved to Chicago and I started working in corporate marketing, which was really boring and crazy. Some of the big stuff I worked on was for Barack Obama before he was president his

Speaker 2 (00:06:04):

I've heard of him.

Speaker 3 (00:06:04):

Yeah. Have you? Nice.

Speaker 2 (00:06:07):

Wasn't he in some band?

Speaker 3 (00:06:08):

Yeah, he's in some death metal band.

Speaker 2 (00:06:10):

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Speaker 3 (00:06:12):

But yeah, no, I mean, I worked for him at this corporate marketing big company in the skyscraper, and we also did stuff for McDonald's and all these huge companies. But the downside of that, and I'm not talking poorly on working for big clients like that, but it's just very boring doing a very monotonous, safe approach to everything. You can't really get creative. So video was always kind of that outlet where I could go and do my own thing. Most recently I shot that music video for the band Dead as a perfect example, and I was like, well, what if I submerge you in water and just let me do it? And they were like, okay. And that's kind of what

Speaker 2 (00:06:57):

Obama wasn't done with getting submerged in water

Speaker 3 (00:07:00):

And stuff. Yeah. He's like, you know what, no fake blood, no submerging, no pyro towers. So

Speaker 2 (00:07:07):

Weird. I

Speaker 3 (00:07:07):

Know, right?

Speaker 2 (00:07:09):

Mean it's just a odd man. Death metal bands tend to that kind of stuff. So that's interesting though to me that you found it boring because I remember there being so much energy, at least in the media about that campaign, and I know that at least with stuff, McDonald's high pressure, it might not be creatively interesting, but it's high pressure. So I find it interesting that, and also cool that you know yourself well enough, and even at a young age you knew yourself well enough to know that you had to be creatively inspired. It didn't matter if it's high level, if you're not creatively inspired, it's not going to work out for you. You really can't get more high level than that.

Speaker 3 (00:07:53):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, working with Barack Obama was actually really cool. Nobody had any idea that he was going to be president back then because there's just so many political candidates. But that was a fun campaign. But the big thing, and I'll be honest with you, that made me snap kind of in that world was McDonald's perfect example is we're building this whole national wide or international campaign for these guys and they're saying, what is it? I'm loving it.

Speaker 2 (00:08:23):

Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:08:25):

Yeah.

(00:08:25):

So essentially what we had to do is this campaign, I'd come in every day and we were working on that in hundreds of languages. So I learned I'm loving it in every country across the world. Thankfully I've forgotten that at this point in time. But just doing that day in and day out, I was just creatively exhausted and knew that I didn't want to do that even though it might pay better. I felt like music industry and doing stuff that I kind of get to create was the way I wanted to go, and that's how I ended up on this crazy path I've taken.

Speaker 2 (00:08:57):

Okay. So since you've worked in the real world, I guess, and now in the music industry, I guess, have you noticed this? Maybe it's better to just ask you if you've noticed this. There's a huge lack of professionalism in the business of music, and I think that I'm wondering if moving from the real world into the music industry, if that frustrated you at all or if you saw that as an opportunity since you actually knew what you were doing.

Speaker 3 (00:09:27):

Well, I mean it definitely was different than other fields. I mean, obviously coming from corporate marketing where everything's very clean and cut into a world where it's kind of the wild, wild west where certain, let's just be straight to the point is certain people wouldn't work with other people because of a problem or an ego issue. Other people had problems with certain labels. It became almost like going from a very strict corporate setting to almost like a high school situation. And I'm not talking poorly on music industry, people that I work with daily. That's

Speaker 2 (00:10:08):

Just the way it is.

Speaker 3 (00:10:09):

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Certain bands don't mesh with other bands because one of 'em got drunk and stole their girlfriend. There's just this web of just complexities that shouldn't be on a business setting, but they actually are. So that's kind of the narrow straits that we have to navigate in this industry, and I had to learn that really fast.

Speaker 2 (00:10:29):

I think that that's why they say that music is the most relationship driven industry in the world. And I've heard a lot of people say every industry is relationship driven. And I know that's true in every industry. You need to network and every industry you need to be friends. And obviously people who have more friends will get further. That's just true of humanity. But there's something different about music where that social drama, you need to know how to navigate it a lot more than I think in other industries. It plays a much bigger factor. People in music will oftentimes fuck themselves over financially or fuck over a project financially or business wise over those personal issues. And so it's like they'll put the personal ahead of the business and it's important to understand that, and it's important to know when that's going to happen. It's important to know how to deal with that.

Speaker 3 (00:11:33):

Oh yeah, it would be easier in a corporate world or something like that because you can kind of navigate what your profit margins are going to look like in a quarterly basis. But in our world too, it's also, let's say two people have an issue and start talking poorly about each other based on some other relationship that went south, this new project that they're working on, you don't really have a formula to know if that's going to be successful or not. So if it fails, that's obviously neither of their faults, but if it is successful, then they take the credit. So it's like the weird situation is in the music industry, we don't really know what is going to be successful or not. Some things that were huge success stories last year and then some new bands that you think are going to be the next big thing that just doesn't happen. So for looping back to what we were talking about is some of the people that sabotage things, they don't really know what they're sabotaging, and that makes it even more complex. It kind of changes it from either a petty fight that didn't do damage to something that costs an album, all of its success, but there's no way to really prove that, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 2 (00:12:50):

It's impossible to prove. But let me just tell you that I do believe that what you're saying about nobody knows to be totally true because I mean, I know that from my days in a band and I know it from my days as a producer too. You work on an album that you think is the sickest thing you've ever done. The band is on point, the songs are great, the team is ready and just nobody cares. And then you work with another band that's like a glorified local band and it sells 30,000 copies the first week. And it's hard. It's really hard to tell. And I can tell you just from doing nail the mix now for three years, that we will get some cult band that hasn't put out a record in eight years, like Carnival from Australia. And it will do almost as well as bring me the Horizon did for us. It did fucking great. But then sometimes you'll have a chalk topper and it's not going to be crickets, but it's not going to be

Speaker 3 (00:13:54):

Even

Speaker 2 (00:13:54):

Close to what that cult band did. And sometimes these obscure bands, for us at least, we'll just move the needle in ways that are just mind blowing. And the ones you would expect don't necessarily, that's every different job I've had in the music industry has taught me that. And then even this one in education, which we kind of interface with the music industry, but we're doing our own thing still. That's still true. You never know.

Speaker 3 (00:14:25):

Well, it's even more complex. I mean, it's hard in this industry because there's so many variables and normal businesses as well, they have variables. But it's a lot more stable on our behalf too. I mean, like you mentioned, you could have a cult classic band, like a death metal band from way back that consistently sells a certain amount or increases or decreases pretty stable. And that has a lot to do with the core fan base that they cultivated over time. I mean, a lot of stuff that you see, let's say on a duality perspective of that is a young band, by the time their third album comes out, their fans are now starting families and they don't really care about music anymore. That was a phase of their life. It feels like specific bands can depend on their fan base depending upon what that demographic is. I mean, you and me both know those death metal black metal fans are die hard regardless if they're 18 or 65.

Speaker 2 (00:15:24):

Yeah, it doesn't die. And that's actually, it's funny, when we started now the mix and URM, we decided we were going to kind of focus on rock and metal, the world we come from, it's the world we know. We know how it works and we know those things about it that there's certain types of bands that there might not be the biggest band in the world, but they will be consistent and their fan base are diehard and there's something there. And so at the beginning and every once in a while people would ask us, so one of you guys going to move into a real genre? You guys are so good at what you do. Why don't you do it for a real genre? And it's like, look, just because that genre has a lot of purchasers doesn't mean that they necessarily have a community of people who want to learn how to produce that style of music. One does not equal the other. It's not a one-to-one thing, it's just because they sell records or they get streamed a lot does not mean that there's a group of kids or adults who want to learn how to produce that kind of stuff. It just doesn't mean that it's not, there's no correlation there.

(00:16:44):

But in heavy music, because of the way heavy music is created and because of who the fans are, heavy music is kind of like, there are non-musician fans, but there's a huge part of the demographic that it's by musicians for musicians.

Speaker 3 (00:17:00):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:01):

I mean every once in a while you do get your bands that cross over into the mainstream and who have non-musician fans. But I would still say that that's a big part of the market. It always has been, and I think it always will be. And I'm not sure that that exists in other genres. So we know this about metal and rock and so that's what we go for and we know it and it works. But it makes me think of something. I remember reading an interview with Glenn Danzig in like 1994 or something. He played some huge show in Texas or something and brought 15,000 people. And Whitney Houston had played there the week before and brought less people. And it just goes to show that there's Whitney Houston would've outsold Danzig crazy in terms of record sales and chart positions. But when it comes to the fans actually showing up, you never know. The heavy bands, heavy bands do a lot better than people realize.

Speaker 3 (00:18:12):

Oh yeah. And it depends on the markets too. I mean, certain things like that, Whitney Houston will probably play in major cities, but they're not going to go and play Kta Arizona that nobody really tours through, but a metal band might. And when they show up to these things, they kind of build a bigger grassroots fan base as well. I feel like that's something that bands don't realize a lot of too, is some of the best shows they'll actually play or small cities that people don't visit. And you have to think over the course of let's say five, 10 years of a musician's touring career, that amount of fan base that they built up in these cities that other people might've passed on might be giving them an innovative edge in let's say a market like Texas or something like that.

Speaker 2 (00:19:02):

Absolutely. So that brings up a question I have for you. So creatively, you're on the videography side of things. Were you ever a musician?

Speaker 3 (00:19:13):

I was, yeah. Yeah, I played in tons of bands, nothing very notable back in the day, just primarily metal type stuff. But that's how I got into it. I mean, it's kind of interesting though being that I did get into the business side of it with let's say the metaphor of corporate suit type people. I found out very quickly that the majority of the people I worked with at labels hadn't actually been musicians, which is an interesting duality.

Speaker 2 (00:19:40):

That's actually interesting to me because lots of the people that I've met over the years on the business side for some reason, I remember them typically having had a band at some point, but them just not having, they just got pulled towards business for some reason.

(00:20:01):

It just worked out that way. But I tend to remember most of them having had a band or being like Monte Connor, I've always said in an alternate universe would've been a producer the way that he a and r is basically like an executive producer. And sometimes I just wonder why he didn't just become a producer, but he didn't. He became one of the most successful a and r guys of all time. And in some ways that is, that's what he was. I mean, clearly it's what he was meant to do, but maybe his skill for production or hearing things was best utilized as an a and r guy. But you can tell that if he had wanted to be a producer, he could have been a producer easily. He has that ear.

Speaker 3 (00:20:55):

Absolutely. And I'm actually very glad that he didn't go that direction because of all people. He's basically built the landscape for modern metal.

Speaker 2 (00:21:05):

Yeah, same.

Speaker 3 (00:21:05):

Yeah. So just watching, I mean even still to date, I see them as the primary metal label picking up artists that are the originals that people want to hear. And I feel like nuclear blasts especially is kind of created that they've perpetuated what's good about metal and brought up younger bands through this kind of machine that they built.

Speaker 2 (00:21:32):

Well, the thing that I think is really, really cool about Monty's Nuclear blast, I don't know if it's an imprint or what it technically is, but Monte's nuclear blast basically

(00:21:46):

I think is fucking awesome because, well, since I know him from Roadrunner, he signed me on Roadrunner. So I knew him back then. I knew that there were a lot of bands that he wanted to sign that he just couldn't, wasn't allowed to. There was that back in the days when he signed me, there was this resurgence of brutality that he just couldn't get the label behind. He just couldn't. He wanted to, but he couldn't. And so it was almost like a blessing in disguise that when they basically axed their entire staff or most of their staff, and he got to start this nuclear blast thing because he's been signing a lot of legacy acts who deserve to be signed by a label that loves them. But he also has been really good about finding these young bands that are fucking cool. Like th artist Murder for instance, or nails. They're not the youngest band, but these bands that are just cool in their scenes that need, I think that they need to work with somebody like him who loves the music and is just lives for the music. They need people like that cultivating their careers, but he wasn't able to do it for the longest time past a certain time period at Roadrunner. They no longer signed that type of band. So I think that metal needs people like him to have the freedom to sign these more extreme bands and also keep the legacy bands alive.

(00:23:24):

It's a great thing he's doing.

Speaker 3 (00:23:26):

I've been in that exact predicament many times where I get pushback on what artists I want to sign at whatever label I'm running at the time. And a lot of times you have to stick your neck out if you see something that somebody else doesn't. And once that band is successful, then everybody kind of backs off and gives you a little more space. So I feel like he's done that in his career. Definitely. And I also do think he understands the importance of bringing in younger bands because let's face it, a lot of these metalhead that listen to legacy acts back in the day are getting old and have different hobbies and might not want to go out and see a concert if they're 50, 60 years old or buy CDs or anything like that. So the important thing for the generations is to build your hot bands.

(00:24:18):

I mean, even when I worked at Century Media Records, that was a big push for us was picking up stuff like suicide silence or wins of Plague to continue on a new generation of Metalheads that might through proxy start buying some of the older catalog releases as well. And it did work, but it's just hard because developing a from Step one ground zero costs a lot more money and takes a lot more time. And by the end of investing all your money and time, it's not really a guaranteed success. It could flop like many artists do.

Speaker 2 (00:24:55):

Back to what we said originally is you never know. You just never know. So wait a second. When did you work at Century Media?

Speaker 3 (00:25:04):

I worked there for about four or five years. I did the, in this moment, blood record, suicide, silence, black thrown a couple others. So that era,

Speaker 2 (00:25:18):

2009 through 2010 ish.

Speaker 3 (00:25:21):

Yeah, I would say about around there,

Speaker 2 (00:25:22):

How did we not cross paths? That was when my band got licensed to Century and we did two records that was right in that time period. We've almost crossed paths so many times.

Speaker 3 (00:25:35):

That's what I'm saying. But it is difficult too in a label like that. I mean, century's big thing was, hey, we have a staff of like 150 people worldwide. So it's like certain people you might talk to is like your Steve Joe, who's a great guy in solid a and r. I'm sure he ran that. Or if you're a primary focus in Europe where they're like, Hey, this band is going to be big in the European scene, you might not even cross paths in the US label. So

Speaker 2 (00:26:02):

I think the only place that my band was a priority was on Steve Joe's Skype when I would blow him up. Oh

Speaker 3 (00:26:10):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:26:11):

Though I used to come by the LA office a lot. I made a lot of friends there, so I must've come on all the days that you weren't there.

Speaker 3 (00:26:20):

Yeah, I mean, my office was in the side right in the hall where everybody had to walk past, so you probably walked past me and just didn't know.

Speaker 2 (00:26:27):

That's so funny. It's funny how that happens. Also, I remember back in that time period, there were some interns who came on who now have been working in the industry or at Century Media for almost 10 years now. Oh wow. Like Stephanie Shoulders, for instance. Oh yeah, totally. I met her back then when she was first starting, and she stuck around for sure. It interesting. That's another thing that I think just must be mentioned, which is that in music, just like you have no idea what's going to happen band wise, you don't know who is going to actually stick it out. You could never tell in advance who's going to stick it out, who's going to have the grit to take all the bumps in the road. And so this is why I think that people say, try to be cool with everyone if you can, because you never know someone who you might, and I am not saying that this is how I felt about Stephanie, actually. I always thought she was cool, but you may not expect someone to be able to have the grit to stick it out, and then 10 years go by and they're running shit.

Speaker 3 (00:27:47):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:27:47):

It's impressive. Should always give people a chance.

Speaker 3 (00:27:50):

I've had situations, and I'm not going to name band names, but I've had situations where when I was, before I started my role in the music industry, I would play in bands and go to college and I'd run sound at some clubs and stuff like that. And I've actually had situations where a band rip me apart about their monitor mix or something like that, way, way back in the ancient days. And then a decade plus later they're in my office asking me to sign them. You don't know when it's going to come full circle, but it's better just to maybe be polite and treat everybody with respect, because at the end of the day, it might circle around. You might get repaid for that kindness.

Speaker 2 (00:28:35):

Yeah, exactly. It's funny how many times has that happened where you remember, but they don't

Speaker 3 (00:28:40):

Oh, many times.

Speaker 2 (00:28:41):

That's so funny. Right out of a movie. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:28:45):

I didn't end up signing 'em, just so you know.

Speaker 2 (00:28:48):

I'm sure you didn't. That's a getting treated like shit sticks with people.

Speaker 3 (00:28:54):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:28:55):

It definitely does. So what do you think, if you had to say what your mission is out of this whole thing, because you did turn your back on a career that seemed to have been working out well in the corporate world to take this massive risk, which has gone well for you? I think it was a well calculated risk. Obviously you've definitely proven yourself in the music industry game, but that's quite the risk to go from that to this. So obviously you're guided by something deeper, and I know you said that you have to have your creative fulfillment, but I feel like there's got to be something deeper. So do you know what your mission is overall, when this is all done, what you want your legacy to be?

Speaker 3 (00:29:50):

Oh, absolutely. I have that dialed down and for the course of about 10 years, I've been taking one step at a time towards this direction. But the big thing is when I started working at Century Media, I did really enjoy working with developmental artists, bands that had the passion. They were hungry, they just wanted to follow their dreams and be successful. And I helped them navigate that. And I feel like part of the majority of my family, they work in the healthcare industry, so I've kind of been geared towards helping people, but ended up in the music industry instead. So I have this mentality that I just love helping these bands. So from there, after Century, I took a role as President of Artery Recordings, which is primarily a developmental label, which I found really exhilarating. There's obviously legacy artists that are doing great on that label.

(00:30:47):

Atila, Chelsea Grin, I wrestled a bear once, but there's also a ton of developmental artists that I was fortunate to pick up and start developing. And then after Artery was acquired by Warner, I went to Outer Loop as president, which was another developmental label. So I've kind of, over the course of 10 years, found my niche as I really enjoy helping bands, giving them advice. I'm sure you and me are very related in that aspect. But I've even gone so far recently to, or not that recently, but over the course of two years, I've been developing a TV show that strictly helps bands go from ground one to being successful. It's called Musician Rescue. I'm not sure if I told you about that.

Speaker 2 (00:31:29):

I saw you post about that. And I definitely got keyed in because we have a show, it's not a TV show, it's actually only for highest tier subscribers, but it's called Mixed Rescue, which it's not the same thing at all. It's basically our students submit a mix of their own, but the actual session, and then the guy who does nail the mix that month will open their session and kind of just rescue it.

Speaker 3 (00:32:04):

Oh, nice.

Speaker 2 (00:32:04):

Not remix it, but they'll be like, oh, what did you do here? A better way to do this. So anyways, it has the same initials, and so I was like, Hmm, interesting. So I looked at what you posted about it, and I actually thought it was a very interesting idea for a show.

Speaker 3 (00:32:26):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's basically what I've been doing at labels for a long time. Taking a band that's jamming out of their practice spot and trying to get out there, and I just throw 'em in the deep end. I would almost claim that it's extreme Home Makeover, but for a band. So to loop back to your initial question, I've kind of just been chasing this almost high of wow, this band, after working with them so much blew up and I had a part to play in that I feel like that's a lot more meaningful to me than, Hey, this band is already successful and I'm just helping them do whatever they're asking me to, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (00:33:07):

It makes perfect sense. I definitely think that we're kindred spirits with that because at the first part of my career, I was a musician and it was all about my music, and that was cool, but I kind of felt empty inside too. Doing that. I definitely had something I wanted to express, but I never felt great about it. And then I felt a step better when I started producing full-time because it was like maybe you have 10 bands a year that you're hopefully helping do something better, and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you do. But then every once in a while you would help a band get to the next level of their career through your production, and that would be the best feeling ever. And then now this thing with URM where we're helping producers quit their jobs and do this full-time or guys that are already doing it full-time, just helping them get better and just helping Gaia in a band who wants to do his own productions, now he can learn how just like we're doing so much for so many people that it's the most fulfilled I've ever felt in my life.

(00:34:31):

And I mean, obviously there's a selfish reward to it, but I feel the most fulfilled when what I do has an impact on other people's lives and not in that it has an impact. So they open their wallet and buy my song, but impact in that their life is better as a result of it. It's great.

Speaker 3 (00:34:56):

I mean, we're in such an unusual business where we can create something out of nothing and make people feel better about themselves or help somebody chase happiness and acquire it. So I mean, that's in the perfect world. I love when that kind of stuff works out, but it's just what other business can you really do that has those prerequisites?

Speaker 2 (00:35:19):

It's tough mean, and the thing that's interesting is that traditionally in the music industry, it wasn't really about that. Anyways, so to carve that niche out for yourself inside of music, which is kind of a selfish industry, very self-centered narcissism goes a long way in this industry to actually figure out a niche where you help people. It's kind of cool and it's kind of different. I mean, I think that there's other industries where it's possible, but sometimes it gets a little weird, like the self-help world.

Speaker 3 (00:35:55):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:35:56):

And sometimes the thing about the self-help world that bugs me is that it's way too general, and I'm a fan of Tony Robbins and stuff, but that kind of stuff, sometimes it's so general that it's almost like horoscopes in that it could apply to anything, which means it kind of applies to nothing. The thing that's really cool about doing something specifically in this industry is that we have specific results that either this person was able to quit their day job or they weren't, either they got this gig or they didn't. Either they're getting paid for this now or they're not. And so we can look at those things specifically. It's not just people feel better about themselves, there's actual meat to the type of results that we can get for people. So I think that that's great. Being able to actually point at real results, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:36:54):

Absolutely agree.

Speaker 2 (00:36:55):

So you think that your big mission is basically to help the artists you work with achieve their dreams? Is that the way to, if I was to sum it all down?

Speaker 3 (00:37:05):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like my mission is to help people, and I give it all to help people, and I educate them. I feel like education is such a big thing in the music industry. You can't really go to community college and take a course and hey, how to make my band not get screwed over and be a success story. So people,

Speaker 2 (00:37:28):

Especially in our world,

Speaker 3 (00:37:30):

Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. So people like you and me, we learn from trial and error, doing it for a decade plus of getting hit with things. Oh, don't do that ever again to, oh, this is working, do this. So it's really great to create more of the community aspect around the music. So it's the music community where I can teach a band what they need to do and we go after it as hard as we can. And after all that hard work, hopefully it pays off, but if it doesn't, at least we gave it our best try. But that's pretty fulfilling to me, and I think that that's the job I've always wanted, that I could be proud of as opposed to going to the factory and stamping some car parts all day and then leaving and going home and drinking beer and going to sleep.

Speaker 2 (00:38:18):

Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting too about the education aspect of this, of what we do or what you do is, so there are other genres or other parts of music where you can go to school and for instance, if you wanted to play in a wedding band, which is actually, there's actually a pretty good career as far as being musician goes. If you can get into that line of work, you can make a great living. You might even be able to make over a hundred grand a year doing that kind of stuff. Those gigs pay well,

(00:38:55):

And if you get into a great cover band, you can kill it or you get into the orchestra pit on Broadway or whatever, and you can go to school for that. You can get a degree and you can get the education you need to actually be able to do that for a living. You go to Berkeley and you study that, you can do it. But for our world, our world is not recognized in schools. When you go to production school, they don't teach you how to do metal and metal's the hardest style of music to produce, but it's not. They'll teach you country, they'll teach you pop, they'll teach you all that stuff, but they will not teach you metal. Maybe some rock, but not much, and it's not taken seriously. Someone's got to do it, and I think it has to come from the people who have done it well.

Speaker 3 (00:39:46):

I'll be straight about this too, not to be the devil's advocate, but with me, I have a master's degree, and within my career I've never really had to show that to anybody. They more care about what you've kind of accomplished in your life. So I mean, what I think is important is people like you and me educating people in these actual real world scenarios. I mean, if you want to go to Berkeley to be a wedding singer or do that stuff, I get it, and it might help you be educated to do that kind of thing. But at the end of the day, it almost feels like instead of giving your money to Berkeley, you should get into you're nail the mix and other online capacities of YouTube and stuff, and just start teaching yourself through educating yourself in hands-on type education. I don't know. That's kind of where I'm at with that.

Speaker 2 (00:40:39):

Well, I mean obviously I totally agree with you.

(00:40:43):

I think that the traditional route doesn't apply to our world. It just really doesn't. And especially with the studio world, there used to be a lot more studios, so there used to be a lot more of a pathway where if you wanted to become a producer, you could intern, you could move your way up through running and interning to engineer all that stuff. There was a pathway and there were enough studios to where it was a legitimate path. But with the way that things have transformed to where there aren't that many studios anymore, most of them are home-based operations and it's a lot more fragmented. There's not that many places to really get that mentorship that used to be part of the deal.

(00:41:33):

There isn't that. So what we offer is the next best thing. It's like, yeah, maybe nail the mix is not the same thing as working for Bob Rock for a year or something, or Machine was on nail the mix and Machine Will Putney worked under him. Josh Wilbur worked under him. Zach Sini worked under him. So obviously getting to work under Machine in the formative years of your career is a very, very good thing. But most people are not going to get to work under machine because he only one or two people every few years get to do that. But at least through nail the mix, you get some insight into what that man's mind is capable of achieving. It's the next best thing. And as opposed to just learning from one of 'em, you can learn from lots of them. So I suggest people do that and then work on their own to get better. So

Speaker 3 (00:42:34):

Yeah, I mean, talent is talent and I feel like if you go to college for it and get a degree, that's not going to stamp you as a talented individual. It's your actions

Speaker 2 (00:42:44):

After

Speaker 3 (00:42:45):

That. I mean, maybe instead of going racking up a K and student loans, buy a decent recording rig and educate yourself through the tools online, I think that that's probably the smartest way to go in our industry.

Speaker 2 (00:42:58):

So do you regret your master's degree at all?

Speaker 3 (00:43:02):

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So it was at the time everybody is supposed to go to college, and I'm sure it's opened up some doors in terms of my internship, which is great. I mean, working for Barack Obama as your first internship isn't something that they would just give to anybody or if I didn't have a degree, but at the end of the day, it's like how many people interned somewhere else that they didn't get to do that kind of thing. So after racking up that student loan, did it really help you or would you have done better just buckling down getting an education online using those tools and then saving that money and putting it where you need it?

Speaker 2 (00:43:44):

Well, you tell me. Do you think that you experienced it, you're the one who got the master's degree and then got these killer corporate gigs and then left it behind. Do you think that you would have been able to achieve the success you have in music if you hadn't done that?

Speaker 3 (00:44:02):

I honestly feel like I could have because

Speaker 2 (00:44:04):

Okay, fair enough.

Speaker 3 (00:44:05):

It's ironic, but when I started working at Century Media, I didn't actually have to show them my degree. They never asked for it. And then ever since then, I've never been asked for that or to create really a formal resume in that capacity. It's just after looking at what I accomplished and the stuff I did and that I was motivated and doing stuff, nobody really cared if I went to college or not. It's like I wonder how many of the biggest producers that are out there, especially back in the day, how many of them went to college.

Speaker 2 (00:44:42):

I can tell you from doing this podcast where this is in the 200 and teens episode wise, yours is going to be, we've talked to lots of people and between that and nail the mix and everything, we've talked to lots of producers. I'd say that the majority don't go to college. I mean, obviously you have some guys who graduated recording school and then they graduated top of their class and then immediately got a great gig and they got the great gig through one of the professors. And there are those guys, but that's not the majority. That's actually, those are outliers. And the thing is, if they were good enough in school to impress their professor to the point where the professor would've helped them out like that, they probably would've gotten that good anyways because of that talent. I'm just wondering if the knowledge that you got from those gigs like the Barack Obama gig or the McDonald's gig, if that informed, if maybe it's not the degree itself that helped, but maybe your level of professionalism from working those gigs, do you think that helped at all? Maybe?

Speaker 3 (00:45:55):

Absolutely. If I could trade going to college for just being in the real world and getting hands-on experience, I would definitely do that. I mean, from my aspect, yeah, I learned a lot of stuff in college, but it hasn't really helped me in the real world. I hate to say there's these lessons that aren't taught in books that are more valuable. It's like as we progress in the music industry and the more bands I work with, I'm learning things consistently. I mean, here I am 34 years old and I'm still learning new stuff every day. I mean, back when I was in school, we were talking about CDs being a big format, and now CDs aren't even a real thing. My computer doesn't even have a CD drive. Stuff's constantly changing. So I feel like in the real world, hands-on experiences, be it through internships or working at companies on the lower levels or higher levels or whatever, that's much more valuable than spending your time reading books that might be out of date already by the time that class is done.

Speaker 2 (00:46:54):

Honestly, I can tell you that me as a boss, it's not that it looked down on it, actually, I'm very impressed that you got him with your background, but you're not trying to come get an entry level job with me. When people try to get entry level jobs with me, whether it's an editor or a new customer service rep or whoever, whatever it is, whatever the situation may be, I am more skeptical of the people who have a lot more education because what it tells me is that maybe, yeah, they stuck it out and that's cool, but I start to wonder if they were just putting off responsibility in the real world for the security of still being in school, I start asking myself that. I start wondering, are you going to be able to deal with the pressure of this because you don't have that much real world experience. I mean, you made it through school, but school's easy compared to the real world,

Speaker 3 (00:47:55):

And there's different types of learners as well. Sorry to cut you off, that's okay on that. But certain people will go to college and they'll ace all their classes because they can read something and spit it back out on paper and they get great grades and other people have to kind of experience and they figure it out in a more fluid capacity where you'll see somebody graduate with a fancy degree and such and then be thrown in the real world and not be able to articulate how to take what they learned in a book and apply it into the real world. Whereas people that might've got not the best grades but understood the concept will go out and kill it because they understand how to put things into motion that they learn. So there's definitely two types of learners, and I hate to dog college because it is difficult. People spend so much time and effort and money going to it. For me, I value, and maybe you'll back me up on this, I value drive and talent more than a piece of paper.

Speaker 2 (00:48:57):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is at the beginning of the month. Now the mix members get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God oth Shuga, bring Me the Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air.

(00:49:46):

You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use of your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain staging, mastering loan, and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy slash enhanced to find out more. A thousand percent, a thousand percent. And even when I was producing full-time and the recording schools would try to get me interns because they have people who work in those departments. That's their entire job is to

(00:51:15):

Get these kids internships. Those kids coming from the recording schools were typically bummers compared to the self-taught ones. The self-taught ones tended to be the ones who got the gigs, the ones who came in with that recording. School education tended to be a lot tougher to deal with. And I know not just me, I know lots of producers who have been on this podcast who prefer somebody who might have less skills but have higher drive and a better personality and more talent because then they'll teach them. They're happy to teach them the skills part, but it's that it's that other stuff that makes the bigger difference. And I can tell you also, our guy who does our camera work for Nail the Mix, his name's Nick Otta, he also shoots our courses now. He's a 22-year-old kid. We met him when he was 19, and he was Andrew Wade's intern. He knew nothing about cameras or very little about camera work when we took him on. And we decided that based on his personality and his talent and who he was and the work ethic that if we just invested in him that he would become the perfect technical operator for what we do. And

(00:52:46):

A year and a half later, it's proven to be a phenomenal investment. He's great at shooting these videos. It's not like we're shooting some James Cameron movie or something. We're shooting educational content. He knows exactly how to do everything we need, and he's come along perfectly. And like I said, he didn't know shit about it at the beginning. You invest in the person not in the skills.

Speaker 3 (00:53:14):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:53:15):

And I think that based on that, I don't give a fuck what kind of degree someone has or not. I'm looking at who the person is, and I think that that is true pretty much across the music industry. People care about who you are and not your degree.

Speaker 3 (00:53:31):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (00:53:34):

Nick's the perfect example of that. You can have zero skills in something, but if you prove yourself as a person to the people who cut the checks, you'll get a shot. People will give you the opportunity to learn. It's awesome. I love that, by the way. I love that it's that way. I think that that's one of the coolest things actually about the music industry, is that you can walk into a situation without the skills, and if you have the right stuff as a human, you will probably get the opportunity.

Speaker 3 (00:54:13):

But if I ever end up in a hospital or have to get surgery,

Speaker 2 (00:54:16):

And that's a different, so I

Speaker 3 (00:54:17):

Please have that piece of paper ready.

Speaker 2 (00:54:19):

Well, yeah, absolutely. Did you ever see that Zach Alkis between Two Ferns where he said that he was in a program called Doctors Without Diplomas? Oh yeah. Yeah. I thought that was hilarious. But yeah, I mean obviously you want your pilot on the plane to have completed all the technical education required for that, but we're dealing with art. We're not dealing with saving people's lives

Speaker 3 (00:54:54):

Or are we,

Speaker 2 (00:54:55):

Well, not directly like

Speaker 3 (00:55:00):

Doing

Speaker 2 (00:55:00):

A triple bypass, but I do think that in some ways art does save lives for sure. At least that's what people say.

Speaker 3 (00:55:09):

I mean, it's like Uber and Lyft drivers. How many people have they saved? You can't really prove it. It's like how many drunk drivers were taking off the street? How many people were saved through music or lyrics and ended up not doing something? They regretted

Speaker 2 (00:55:24):

The amount of times that members of bands get told that their music saves somebody. When people say that I'm going to take them, I'm going to believe that what they're saying is true. I don't think that people will just say, your music saved my life just to say it. Why would they? Alright. Switching gears a little. I'm wondering you as a boss who does cut checks, you work with lots of bands who have to go to the studio, so you've worked with lots of producers and you're counting on these producers to handle whatever the band throws at them and give you something that you can then sell. What is it that you're looking for in a producer and what is it that lets you feel confident to take a chance on a new one?

Speaker 3 (00:56:27):

Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, on the more mechanical business side of things, what I'm always looking for, and these are the two big things for me, is obviously stability. Hardly anybody knows how digital setups for album releases work, how intense they are in terms of making pitches for Spotify or having meetings over at SiriusXM or all of this stuff that has to play into a simple single release, even just a standalone, there's so much stuff. So one big thing for me with a producer is just to have some stability and deliver on deadlines. There's something really hard from the label side to deal with, which is a producer that kind of says, Hey, mix is coming this Friday. You're going to have it for the mastering plant, the whole nine. And then two and a half, three weeks go by because they squeezed another project in or something like that.

(00:57:29):

And then before you know it, all the pitches on the label side are kind of null and void. You have to shift it to two months later because of something like that. So for me, when I start working with a producer that's on the ball, delivers what they say they're going to deliver, that's something that I really enjoy working with as well as on the musical side. For me, one of the biggest parts of a song's successor an album is just really heavy hitting good hooks or choruses. So what I like to do is work with engineers that do know how to get the most out of a vocalist and have them deliver something that'll be not just memorable, but also impact people to continue listening to that single.

Speaker 2 (00:58:13):

So would you say that having some songwriting ability, is that kind of what you mean, that they can help fill in the weaknesses with hooks and really whatever's needed, but would you say that that translates as good songwriting ability?

Speaker 3 (00:58:32):

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the biggest battle too for me is when you have a band of five, six or four people and you throw 'em together, each person is a little biased towards what they think the song needs. So what happens is the guitarist thinks that it needs a big solo portion, and the vocalist thinks that his vocals need to be louder or different, stuff like that. So for me, having an engineer slash producer who can sit there and be kind of the voice of reason, kind of a mediator, if you will, has been truly invaluable because the songs come out better as a whole to me, as opposed to the bands there, somebody hits record and just lets them kind of battle it out and create this camel of a situation. So I've always found that that's just been productive and helped me out create better products, at least on my side.

Speaker 2 (00:59:24):

And how do you know, I guess, when you're first entering into a relationship with a producer, do you have any methods for finding out if you think that this person's going to be this way? Or what makes you feel confident in advance about going with someone you've never hired before?

Speaker 3 (00:59:44):

I think the biggest thing is word of mouth. I mean, none of this stuff can be really a hundred percent figured out ahead of time. A lot of times you just kind of have to roll the dice and go with who the band wants to go with or who we're thinking and see what happens. But I will say this, if it works out great, usually you end up sending that person additional projects in the future and you have a great relationship. If it's just terrible and doesn't work out, you tend to not want to trust that individual again. So I would say though, that word of mouth is probably the best way to get clients, not even just on the audio side, like me as a videographer on the side doing that stuff. I also get tons of clients based just strictly on people saying, dude, this guy's on the level did great work. He comes through and he's professional. And that goes a long way. I mean, if you do that 10 years straight, you're going to have a lot more clients than burning people and not taking it seriously or something of that matter.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):

Burning people never goes well, and I imagine that if you have a long track record with somebody, if there does happen to be one record that's a nightmare and it really isn't the producer's fault, you're going to be that much more inclined to believe them.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):

Oh yeah, absolutely. The music industry seems so big and vast, but it is a small family. We all know each other. And when something, if you have a few albums that are doing great and you guys work together and one just is kind of a fluke, it could have been the band's fault or some circumstance, you never know. For me at least, I would probably just give the person the benefit of the doubt, continue working together because not only of loyalty, but the long history of working together and doing great successful projects.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):

At what point, I guess without throwing anyone under the bus, but at what point does it cross over into, alright, this dude's too much drama versus, man, this band is impossible. I'm giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. Where's that line for you? Or is it case by case?

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):

It really is case by case, but there are situations that arise where you just have to either cut ties because it's just not productive anymore, or you need to try to repair it through more drastic means without half measures. So for me, I'm very accepting and I like to listen to different perspectives to understand the whole scenario, but at certain times some things just don't work, and for you to waste your time and money and energy on something that's just inflexible isn't going to end well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):

No, no, it's definitely not. In terms of reliability, I guess in terms of hierarchy of what's more important to you, and I realize that life isn't usually about these extremes, but if you had to choose somebody who was 100% perfect at audio production, like best productions you ever heard, but was constantly late and kind of a diva, just like all the other stuff was tough to deal with versus someone who was 90% great at audio productions, but all the other stuff was totally cool. Everything's always on time, they're always easy to deal with. The bands always have a good time. All that stuff is great. Which one would you rather go with?

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):

I would go with your second analogy. I essentially would take the 90% person because in the long run there's too much stuff to risk in the grand scheme of things, on at least the label side as well as the musician's career, to really have it hinge on any type of diva attitude. It's kind of difficult when we're in an industry where, yes, it is work, it's a job, but also some people have egos and might throw stuff under the bus based on vanity. That kind of stuff is too much to deal with, especially with so much money, such a big career on the line and mentally having to deal with that is not even worth it at all as well.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):

Well, I'm glad you said that because one thing that we always tell our students is that, look, you definitely need to try to be as badass as you possibly can be at audio, but if you think that just being badass at audio is enough, you're totally wrong and there's that extra 25% of the day that you could sit in your room and work on audio or you could work on networking and your personalities and social skills and business skills, you should work on that stuff because that stuff is going to be what makes or breaks your career. At the end of the day, it's assumed that you're a badass at audio, but you don't need to be the best of all time to be gainfully employed and regularly gainfully employed. These other skills are equally as important and they get overlooked a lot. And I think a lot of people get really good at music or audio and somehow they feel like that's enough.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):

And

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):

It is also one important thing I'd like to bring up, and this kind of refers back to the college stuff as well, but if you're a college graduate and have a degree, or if you're an engineer that thinks you're super hot, shit entitlement is something that is really hard to deal with.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):

Got it. What a turnoff.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):

Totally. It is not just a turnoff, but it also kind of stunts your growth mentally, because if you're arrogant or you think you, you're now entitled to a job and you don't want to work as hard, or if you're a big producer and you say, Hey, I'm hot, shit, I know everything and nobody else knows any better than me, you're not going to learn anymore. You're just going to shut down and think that you have it right. So I feel like that stuff or that mentality is not only a big turnoff, but it's also something that is going to be very destructive to anyone's career.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):

Yeah, absolutely. I totally, totally agree, and it's interesting that the best musicians I know, and I know some great ones, the best musicians I know, they could be 45 years old and they're still getting lessons and they still kind of think they suck and they still are actively chasing getting better. They never think they know everything. It's usually, usually that. I think I know everything attitude comes from people that aren't that great. Funny enough how that works. We've got some questions here from our listeners that I want to ask you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):

We've

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):

Got some good ones. I have some more stuff I want to talk about, but some of this stuff's topical, so I figure may as well just ask it while we're kind of on this topic. So this one we already kind of covered, but I'm just wondering if there's any more to this. But Isaiah Prather, who by the way, is one of our youngest students. He's 17, but he's already going to college while he's in high school and he's making a living off of recording and mixing already. Well,

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):

That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):

And I believe he's also wins a track or something. So kind of doing great, but he's wondering, Hey Shannon, I'm wondering about what labels look for in engineers and what the best ways to get those jobs are. Thanks. So I am going to just butt in though before you answer that and say that he's asking from the perspective of someone who does not have any name whatsoever in the industry, a young kid who has a dream of getting into the industry. So there is going to be no word of mouth about him. Like Mike Maori's not going to tell you. Yeah, I worked with him. He's cool. He's nowhere right now. So from that perspective, from someone in his position, what would you say labels are looking for in engineers? How should he go about getting those jobs?

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):

Interesting enough, everyone starts from that aspect. So I wouldn't be freaked out about it. I would take this opportunity to almost continue on, this is your internship, where what I would do is honestly, I would start recording smaller bands and then next thing you know is you do great work. Even if you don't like the band or they're small, you still give it your all and it makes a great record. What's going to inevitably happen is a label's going to try out an engineer like that for something smaller that's less risk. I mean, obviously I'm not going to say, Hey, I got this band, Metallica, do you want to do their record? I've never heard your stuff or work together. So it's just too much of a risk. So from a label standpoint, if it's a newer band or something a little less risky, they're going to give you that opportunity.

(01:09:02):

I've done it a million times where I try out new engineers and producers where I'm like, okay, this band wants to work with this guy, or he's talking to us and it's not too expensive, and his stuff sounds good so far. Let's try it out. And then from there, that's where your relationship starts to blossom, where next thing you know, they're like, Hey, we have a moderate band a bit bigger. You did such a great job on that album, that last album for the smaller band, it sounded great. You were very professional. Let's try out with this group. So you just kind of have to do that. I mean, it's not going to happen overnight, but a label will give you a chance inevitably, as long as you keep doing really great work, trying hard. And then also you do want to network and get yourself out there and kind be educated on what bands are getting signed or who's looking to do new records because you never know. I mean, it is really just you need one foot in the door and then if you have the talent and you work hard, it really just goes from there. I mean, when I started doing videos for the first time, I think I directed my own band's video and the budget was like $500. And then most recently I just directed a new music video for John Mellencamp for a mainstream record, which

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):

More than $500.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):

Yeah, definitely $501.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):

I was about to say $525.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):

Exactly. So I made 25 extra dollars now, joking.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):

Well, that's a great answer. Here's a question from Brandon Morris, and by the way, some of these questions I'm asking them because there may be a misunderstanding on how this all works, and I think, so I want to address some of these. The way this is worded makes me think that he doesn't totally understand how studio label producer relationships work.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):

But

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):

At the same time, I think the wording might be weird. So here's the question from Brendan Morris. How should engineers go about finding appropriate labels for their studio size and what they'll be looking for, and also what's the best way to attempt to contact a label?

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):

Okay, I understand what you're saying. So I mean, here's the thing. Your studio size I don't think matters. I mean, obviously if you're recording out of your bedroom, you probably want to get a bigger space. It's a little bit more professional. It doesn't need to be too crazy. But honestly, studio space isn't that huge to a label, to a specific point. I mean, I've had artists where they record in a bedroom and create some really great stuff. They don't have to go into a multimillion dollar studio. It's just the way things are now. So I mean, if you're starting on the ground one basis, I would just have a moderate studio. I wouldn't let that phase you from going after clients. There's a very great quote that one of my mentors told me a long time ago, and it's something that I've always listened to and had in the back of my mind for 10 years plus, and the thing always went, ready, fire, aim.

(01:12:13):

Whereas the point being is just get it ready, get it off the ground, and then steer the ship as opposed to trying to aim and figure out where you want to go and then pull the trigger, just get it off the ground and then figure it out for reaching out to an artist or reaching out to a label. I would actually encourage you to maybe start reaching out to managers. I feel like the majority of managers have a lot more sway towards the label in terms of, Hey, the band really wants to go with this guy they've been talking to. And then me as a label would be like, okay, you know what? I'll delegate to you and we'll do this. Or I could put my foot down and say, no, they're not going to do it. They're going to go to this guy. We have a relationship and it works. So also, I wouldn't reach out direct to labels as much as you start developing relationships with maybe some managers.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):

Yeah, great. Thank you. Here's one from Matt Heap, which is how does a band stick out from the 1,584,335,154 applications? The label gets, how do they get the right people to hear their music? Oh

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):

My gosh, that's a lot of bands.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):

I think that he just typed in random numbers and didn't think that I was actually going to read the number off, but it was still a number I could understand,

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):

Or he went and just counted every band on the internet.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):

It could be That's true. You're hired.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):

So I mean, that's the name of the game. I mean, from a label standpoint, I'm looking for something that will stand out. It's like you see this formulaic approach from older labels where Blink 180 2 came out and it was a three piece punk band that was working, and then they signed all these other three piece bands and try to make those work too, or the boy bands. And there's all these replicas and stuff for me and many of my counterparts at different labels. We believe in something that A stands out and is new. I mean, look at 21 Pilots, right?

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):

God, they're so good.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):

You'd be so surprised how many times somebody has passed on signing 21 pilots and then they blew up and they regret it because it was something fresh. It was different and people really appreciated it. So people want to find that next 21 pilots. So standing out, it could be a visual approach to things. And granted, I'm not saying make garbage music and just look cool. You want best of both worlds, but you could have a really cool gimmick or look, I mean, look at ghosts. That's a perfect example of somebody that came from an artistic side, built a very visual aspect and just killed it. Obviously ghosts is probably one of the contenders of biggest bands of 2018. I would say personally,

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):

They're a lot bigger than I realized.

Speaker 3 (01:14:55):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):

They're really big.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):

And I mean, if they were just a handful of guys just looking regular in shirts and playing music, you think it would be that successful?

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):

No, no, it all goes together. But I do think there's a flip side, which is sometimes local bands put too much into their image and it kind of comes off like a joke.

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):

They look like that local band that's trying too hard. They look like that local band that makes their girlfriends wear the crew shirt. I feel like there's a fine line, which is where the art and skill comes in, but there's a fine line to I think, having an image appropriate for your size too.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):

Yeah. Oh, it has to be done properly. And I mean, I'm sure there's been a million pants that try to pull off the Black Veil Bride's look and Slipknot, and it just didn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):

You

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):

Just have to be unique. You have to come up with an idea that hasn't been done or something that just truly comes together and bakes this cake of just, God. I hate that. I just use a cake analogy. We don't work in the food industry. I should use a music metaphor, but it's just something that works. And from my aspect, kind of looping back to your question is a band needs to have something special either at a look and their music sounds great, or a new approach that hasn't been done. Because let's face it, nobody wants to hear more cookie cutter things that are the same as stuff that people are already getting tired of.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):

No, I know. I definitely don't want to. So you know that the local band who they have read lots of music industry books, and so they go to an expensive studio, they get a publicist, they get a local level manager. They get all these things that they think are going to make them seem legit that they think are going to matter. But personally, I don't think any of that stuff really matters before you're ready for it. But what would you say to those bands who invest a lot of money or get into these business relationships while they're still local? Do I mean, do you think that that's okay? Or do you think they should be reprioritizing? What do you think about that whole phenomenon? Seen quite a few.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):

Yeah. It's kind of your fake it tell you make it type thing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):

Yes, kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):

So essentially what I would tell you is that, I mean, just thinking about it like a publicist is important and crucial to any release or bands, but the big thing is they're only as good as the ammunition that they have. So if there's a local band and they're putting out really unique content, like crazy stuff that's a publicist that's capable of doing big things can use, they're going to open up some doors for you. I mean, this perfect example is, oh man, what was that? Ok, go. Do you remember that band?

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):

Oh, yeah. Ok, go. They made the phenomenal YouTube videos.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):

Yeah. So if you guys haven't seen it, it's a band, and they took four treadmills and they just made a little choreography thing on a cheap camera that probably cost 'em 20 bucks to film. And the thing was used by whoever their publicist was at the time and ended up blowing the band up. Because as a publicist, you have to get the tension of cultivators of these magazines, the editors or the content creators. And for you as a publicist to approach a magazine and say, Hey, I got a band that's playing music about a breakup and a video is a girl crying, and they are arguing, nobody's going to care because their content is created for the strict purpose of getting click through rates. If somebody sees that on their timelines, nobody's going to click through to it. But hey, check out this band. They used four treadmills and did some crazy choreography.

(01:19:05):

It's the weirdest thing ever. People are going to click through and they're going to make money as a magazine. So it's kind of this duality where people think magazines are doing it for fun or to help. And some are, I'm sure I'm not talking poorly on magazines. I work with them every day. But what they really are looking for is unique stuff that people are going to want to watch. So you as a band, if you do have a publicist, make sure you have something to give them to make the money worth it. If you're sending 'em a video or two to find a premiere on something, it's that they might land or not. It's not worth it. But looping back,

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):

No, I want to hear more about this. I feel very strongly about this because we were talking about earlier, we want to help people. We want to help people. That's what we do. And so when I see bands fucking up like this and spending thousands and all that, it hurts me. Oh, absolutely. I like to have my knowledgeable friends come on and lay the truth down.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):

Yeah, I make sure when I have a publicist, it's needed. I wouldn't spend money on publicists for months and months and months without having the content or the power ammunition for them to utilize, because at that point, you're just throwing money away. But I would like to bring up an example that I had created back in, when was it? I want to say three years ago I invented a band called Pug Topsy. Do you remember that?

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):

No, but it's great.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):

So I created this bands, it was loosely based on a, you remember a canines? It was like a,

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):

Black and metal band with two pit bulls

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):

All time. Classic.

Speaker 3 (01:20:42):

Yeah. I had this idea of doing that with a pug, and I know somebody has done that again recently. So maybe that was their idea as well, or they ripped me off. Who cares? Doesn't matter. But

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):

Shan Dan

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):

A royalty mechanical, but I had this idea for April Fool's Day, I wanted to create a fake band that was metal, and it was fronted by a pug like the dog. And I did it, and I was hyping up this April 1st release date in an attempt to draw up momentum and make people think, oh, who is it? Is it Metallica or Black Dahlia murder? People were speculating April 1st. I drop a brutal metal music video with the pug, and it's just so stupid, but I have a publicist do a blast about it. It ends up getting picked up by TMZ. It gets picked up by at least a dozen radio stations. It's on revolver. It's on alternative press. It just gets picked up by all of these publications because it was such a unique creative spin on something that if they posted it, people would click through and go to their magazines and check out the story. But long story short, I used my publicist and the momentum of this angle to raise, I believe it was $8,000 off of one shirt on merch now, and we donated all of that to a animal charity.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):

That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):

It was actually for a great cause. But that just underlines kind of exactly the ammo you need. It needs to be something to kick in that door, because we may think our music and our standard music video is good enough, but it's just maybe you need to get a little bit more thrifty and creative about how you want to present yourself in a visual aspect.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):

Well, the publicist is not going to create your story for you, and by expecting them to, it's asking them to do something that's not really part of the job description.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):

First

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):

Of all, I think that it's ignorant and it's also very selfish and just out of touch with reality to think that another human being is going to be able to invent your story for you. That's not how life works. Only you can invent your own story and

(01:23:00):

Then you bring in other people to help publicize it for you. But if you don't come in with, you, use the word ammunition, I think that's a perfect word for it. If you don't come in with that, you're asking this person who doesn't know you, or maybe they know you a little, but this person who is not part of your artistic creation, they have a very specific job of pitching stories to media outlets. You're asking this person whose job is to pitch stories to then create your story. It doesn't make any sense. How can they, that's not, they're not part of your artistic collective or whatever it is, like your project. It's not their story.

(01:23:54):

If your story's good, they can help you get the story coverage, but expecting them to create it, that goes back to that entitlement you talked about earlier, which I think that that's kind of an entitled thing to, it's just clueless expecting that. It's kind of like when people who don't understand how a manager works and when they expect the wrong things out of a manager, for instance, that's what it feels like to me. So I think another example of where local bands go real wrong with this is by working, trying to find management way too early. Because basically the only managers that will work with you that early are not the kind of managers who can really do anything for your career and manager. I mean, managers do get opportunities for bands, but the band has to give the manager ammunition to use your word. They have to give the manager ammunition to work with. The manager's not going to create that for you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:59):

And it's not only that, I mean, in the course of my career, the amount of emails and submissions I've had for demos or bands is astronomical. But I love listening to the album albums, demos, and I go through all of them, but a huge chunk of them is a situation where they haven't played a show or they are online and haven't really promoted it or something like that. And they ask me to just get 'em on a big tour and make 'em famous and

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):

Just like that, just make 'em famous.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):

And it just doesn't work that way. I mean, the best thing for a band is to continue on, create a product that they're proud of, that they know people will really enjoy and listen to and start promoting it regardless if they have a publicist, a manager, or anything like that. Because I guarantee if you have something special and you guys are all working hard and getting fans and building momentum, you're going to hit a precipice where labels and managers come and start talking to you as opposed to you begging them to give you a chance and maybe they take advantage of you, they know you're desperate or something like that. It's just a position where too many bands are expecting instant success without working for it. And then the other half of 'em are actually working super hard and starting to see the momentum. And I guarantee if that's the approach you take where you're just like, let's buckle down, work hard and start to get fans, that's going to be much more productive for your career in the long run.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):

I totally, totally agree with you on that. And I guess it comes down to booking agents too. Lots of times these bands will try to get a booking agent, and it's like, look, that's not, just because you got a booking agent and your local band does not mean that you're going to get cool tours. And the only kinds of real tours that are going to come your way from that is going to be stuff that you don't want to do, buying on to a legacy band that is just trying to pay their bills. So they'll let you play first of five out of four other local bands that are paying their bills. That's not good. That's not really going to do much for you.

Speaker 3 (01:27:10):

Yeah, I mean that in itself, it's all about ticket sales. I've seen bands, at least back in the heyday when I was in bands and such where we would play weekend shows and we expand to a week long in our markets, and we would get those really bolstered up and start being able to actually draw. And then from there you had momentum. I mean, a lot of people don't realize that our promoters and bands look at a website called Polestar Pro, which actually tracks the majority of ticket sales based around any specific artist. So for instance, let's say we see a tour for under oath pop up on that inner circle of the industry where they're trying to find a package of bands to be on it. If you don't pull a specific amount of tickets, you're most likely not going to be considered for that kind of tour.

(01:27:55):

So building from the ground up and actually having a tangible fan base that you can utilize to propel yourself into tours with people that have the same kind of fan base is going to be a lot more successful than you trying to hemorrhage money. I mean, it's been done working at a label for, or handful of labels for the course of a decade. I've seen a lot of money spent on towards just to get somebody without any draw in. So you can do it that way, but I mean, in the long run, it's just not going to be as successful as building something and having a tangible fan base to rely on.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):

I'm sure that every once in a while you can spend a bunch of money to get somebody with no, draw some opportunities. And out of all the times that you do that one out of X amount, one in 10 or one in seven, I don't know what the number is, but one out of all those times that you do that, it will work out and

Speaker 3 (01:28:54):

Some

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):

Momentum will build. But I'm sure because seen it too, that most of the times that that's done, it fails.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:02):

Because there's a reason for why that band doesn't have a pool is because they're not ready for those opportunities yet. They haven't graduated to that point. They're not ready. So buying them into that situation isn't going to suddenly make them ready. It's not going to make them a good enough band. Every once in a while, there's a band that's awesome who just for some reason hasn't been recognized yet, but I don't think that's usually the case. I think usually the case is the bands are not ready for the opportunities. And so the market hasn't responded.

Speaker 3 (01:29:34):

And one tip, this is related and probably going to help some of you guys out, is what I've encouraged people to do is if you're hitting a situation and some buy on and you have to spend X amount of dollars, I get it. It might be good for your resume and stuff like that, but in a almost trade off, what I've tried to do is maybe pivot to, Hey, instead of paying this straight out flat cash type thing, we're going to create a comprehensive marketing timeline and deck based around this tour. So if you bring us along, we're going to spend this amount of money on Facebook ads and stuff like that, that is going to help draw more people. And that's kind of a more beneficial thing because the ads, you are spending money, it's helping the tour out, but it's also helping your band out from a marketing capacity. You can piggyback your message as in our new singles out, we're on tour. Here's the dates and ticket links. You could kind of use that. So that's a situation that might be feasible both for the legacy artists, and you actually benefit a bit more than, here's a check, a blank check, and we're going to do this one tour and it's all going to work out and we're going to be huge after it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:35):

Yeah. Well, that's what you just suggested is how I've always looked at life, which is whatever opportunity you get, if you actually approach it with the mindset of, I'm going to milk this for everything it's worth, I'm going to do single thing I can to make this as big as I can get every ounce of value out of it. Well, people will go a lot further I think, if they approach life that way. So here's a question from Noah v Ana,

Speaker 3 (01:31:06):

Which

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):

Is, would a label legitimately consider someone for a test mix if they only had three tracks in their portfolio? That's an arbitrary number. He just picked, so only three tracks in their portfolio, but each song was totally slamming.

Speaker 3 (01:31:23):

I mean, maybe it'd be a little more difficult. For me, the name of the game is more album driven or EP driven. So usually when opportunity presents itself, I want all five songs to be very similar or recorded at the same time and mix and such. But there might be situations where I need to remix a single or do something like that and would just give people a chance to do that. But I honestly would go after full albums. It's more convenient for a label to do that as opposed to a single by single basis.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):

And so same person was wondering, so would a label rather see a portfolio where each song was displayed via its own standalone Vimeo video or any video site with a custom graphic and some animation over the regular website music player? Or does that not really have much influence in favor of someone who's trying to get a chance at a test mix?

Speaker 3 (01:32:24):

Yeah, I mean, that doesn't bother me too much. I mean, I honestly would just love to see a discography if it's a handful of local bands or what it is. But if somebody has only done some singles, it's not going to move the needle for me at least as much as, Hey, I've worked on this album, this album, this album. Check it out. It's something more tangible. So what I would encourage you to do is start to record eps or full albums for artists, because that's pretty substantial. And then build a resume around that because not only does it show you've been doing this for a while and you're capable of handling full albums and such, but it's also organized and I can check out different dimensions of what your work entails based on what genres you recorded.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):

Okay. So we have a few questions here from Gerald Prado, Nolan Beone, Noah Ana asked this as well, and a few more we're asking, I'm just addressing you guys asking. Martine Pey was asking about tips for contacting a label, and I just want you guys to know that we already covered this in the question that Isaiah Prather asked at the beginning and also the question from Brandon Morris. So we already covered that. So just I didn't ask your question is because the topic was already covered, but here's one, and we'll close it out with this one. This one wasn't covered yet, but this is from dLAN Perkins, which is how does the whole thing work between the engineer and label, like who's paying who, how much, et cetera, et cetera. So I think dLAN really, if he's asking how much then never done this before, so just kind of assuming he's kind of clue to that whole dynamic between labels and engineers.

Speaker 3 (01:34:19):

Yeah, so I mean, it's really a case by case situation. Certain bands will have bigger budgets dependent upon what their sales are going to be. If a band is going to sell a hundred thousand records, you have more money to work with. It's pretty straightforward. With smaller bands, it's more like, oh, well, we don't have that big of a budget because we don't know how many CDs it's going to sell. At the end of the day, we want to at least recoup what we spent into a band back. That's actually a win for me. But it really just depends what your, I guess, status is as an engineer. I mean, if you're starting out, you might have to do some gigs for a lot cheaper. I mean, it's always, at least the majority of people I work with engineer wise, it's kind of a track, a cost per track type thing where let's say it's like a smaller engineer trying to get their hands dirty a little bit.

(01:35:16):

It could be, oh, let's do $500 a track and test it out. Or you could get upwards of, if you're really big engineer, you could really just negotiate whatever rate you want as well as what's called points. So in terms of your overall cost of an actual to record, a single could be, let's just just spitballing two grand per single, and then you can negotiate five points. So 5% of what the album makes in royalties. So there's different ways you can go about doing it, but it is just very wild, wild west in terms of negotiation. It really comes out to your portfolio, what you have to bring to the table, and just the overall budget of the band. I mean, if the band is just smaller, they're not going to have as much cash. But what happens in the relationship between the label and the engineer is you essentially invoice the label and we pay the bills. So it's basically a glorified bank just with some guidance.

Speaker 2 (01:36:17):

Every once in a while. I've seen these deals where the band is in control of the budget, so the band pays it, but that's not common in my experience. Normally you invoice the label and they pay

Speaker 3 (01:36:34):

Totally. I mean, I've seen many bands where they're at a level where the label's like, Hey, here's X thousands of dollars. Make all of this stuff work in terms of your recordings, your video, all this stuff, and it always fails miserably. I mean, I'm sure it might've worked decent for some people, but the band goes over budget in the recording and they're like, oh no, we only have $200 for the music video. We didn't realize it was so expensive. Oh, wait, a publicist, what's that? A lot of times the label is just kind of maps out, here's what you got budget wise. Here's what we can afford on this side. This is your overall marketing plan for the next year and a half. This is how much money we have. This is the markets we're going after. So that is kind of the role of the label, is to map it out, organize so the musician could be a musician, get creative and make sure that everything gets paid for and covered.

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):

Yeah, I've always wondered why they would put that in the musician's hands, because that's just asking. It's just asking for trouble.

Speaker 3 (01:37:35):

Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):

Yeah. It's not wise. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great talking to you. We should do it again sometime. It's killer that we finally got the chance to do this and work together.

Speaker 3 (01:37:50):

Absolutely. It's been great talking. Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):

Yeah, man. Anytime.

Speaker 3 (01:37:55):

The

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):

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