MATT SQUIRE: Fixing streaming royalties, producing Panic! At The Disco, and lessons from Max Martin

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Empire Ears. In collaboration with Grammy winning producers, engineers, and their family of touring musicians, empire Ears has developed a line of in ear monitors that deliver what you need for every mix. When it comes to unrivaled stage clarity, or needing a flat and honest reference for your latest studio mix, empire Ears has got you covered no matter where you find yourself. And now your host,

Speaker 2 (00:00:29):

Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyal Levi and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like Thy of God, Shuga Periphery the Day to Remember. Bring me the horizon, eth many, many more, and we give you the raw multi-track so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multi-tracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out [email protected]. Welcome to the URM podcast. I've got a great guest for you today. I have none other than Matt Squire, who is a multi-platinum producer, engineer, mixer, and songwriter.

(00:01:20):

His credit list looks a lot like the top of the billboard charts. Having worked with acts such as Panic at the Disco, Ariana Grande, Solana Gomez, Keisha under Oath, the used and so many more that to name them would take up all the time in the podcast. He's also worked on Seasons one and two of the X Factor and done some very, very important and noble work in helping artists get paid by streaming royalties. This is a fascinating episode. I hope you enjoy it. Matt Squire, thank you for coming on the URM podcast. I appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (00:01:58):

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:02:01):

Are you in Baltimore? Is this my understanding?

Speaker 3 (00:02:04):

I'm right between Baltimore and dc. I'm in Beltsville, Maryland. It's right by the University of Maryland and it's sort of equidistant from the city and be more,

Speaker 2 (00:02:16):

Are you part of that scene? I'm just wondering because there's a lot of talented people in that area that I know.

Speaker 3 (00:02:22):

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, there's a lot of great stuff happening here and I'm part of it to an extent. I just moved back to the area in 2016. I'm born and raised here, but I was in LA from oh eight to 16. So yes, part of it but also new to it in a way as well.

Speaker 2 (00:02:44):

So did you go to LA because that's what you do, how far along were you when you went to there?

Speaker 3 (00:02:53):

It's such a good question and maybe a little bit of a loaded question

Speaker 2 (00:02:57):

A bit, but I want to know because there are a lot of people who listen are not even from the US and

Speaker 3 (00:03:03):

Right on.

Speaker 2 (00:03:04):

They think about coming to the US especially to go to LA or how it is. Some people who are in recording schools

Speaker 3 (00:03:11):

Totally,

Speaker 2 (00:03:12):

They think they got to graduate and go and it's right for some people, but it's not for others. So I'm just curious about your experience

Speaker 3 (00:03:18):

And that's why I like the question. It was a little bit of this is what you do. I had unexpected success in the beginning of my career and I actually started at this same studio that I'm in Maryland. My story, I think really sheds a little bit of light on that exact question about do you have to go to la I was here in Maryland, this is where I'm born and raised and that's where I did panic and all time Low and 3 0 3 and some of my early stuff. And then when some of those records were doing well on pop radio and starting to blow up on alt, I was like, I think I need to go to LA to capitalize on this. And it was actually the right decision for me at that time because I was getting more into the songwriting side of it.

(00:04:11):

I've always been more of a producer than a songwriter, but I was exploring writing and in LA there are more writing opportunities for people like us. You can do two sessions a day and bounce from studio to studio and there's a lot of people there and there's a lot of things happening. And it was fun. I just after a while started to challenge the notion that that was sort of it or that was the be all end all. And when I really wanted to get back into rock production, I started to miss my Maryland studio. It's all inclusive. There's a place to stay here. The drum room is charmed. This used to be Brian mc Turn's Studio. So a lot of amazing records were made here, like Thrice Artists in the Ambulance and TER by Circa. So there's a lot of history and it it's just a great vibe.

(00:05:08):

So after a while I sort of went, I wonder as I'm getting more into rock production again, would it be cool to go back and sort of get out of LA and it's just been great. I've been back here for two years. We did the new under Oath record here. We did the new Amity Affliction record here and it really is a charmed spot and I like being out of la honestly. It was a fun place to be for a few years, but we did get tired of it both personally and professionally. So it's been nice to be back.

Speaker 2 (00:05:46):

I think it sounds like you did your time.

Speaker 3 (00:05:49):

That's the way I look at it. I wouldn't change it. I really learned a lot out there and I ended up, I'm a hardcore kid at heart. I grew up in hardcore scene and played in a band called Ashes, which was with Brian who was in battery. I'm like straight up bonafide punk rock, hardcore kid. But in LA I really wanted to branch out and explore a totally different world. So I was doing a lot of pop stuff and I got to work with people like Dr. Luke and Max Martin and countless others where I was really able to just learn especially about the art of Melody, which I didn't know enough about in my early days. So it was really, I kind of look at it. I went to grad school in LA and then learned a bunch, still got a lot to learn but wanted to apply it back here in the DC area.

Speaker 2 (00:06:50):

Does it amaze you how many East Coast hardcore kids have made it in the current music industry? Not necessarily in hardcore,

Speaker 3 (00:06:59):

It's the coolest and I have a lot of friends that I keep in touch with where we can talk about the more the music festival in Ohio, but we can also talk about some record that we're working on now in 2019 that's contemporary and it is a joy. I think we all root for each other and get excited when each other does well and there's a real bond and a real shared mentality that we all have that I love and that you look around to find other brotherhoods like that or other sisterhoods like that and there aren't that many. We have a really, really cool thing that we started a long time ago and I think that the vibe and the bond of all of that still exists.

Speaker 2 (00:07:46):

It's really impressive to me. I actually come from the metal scene so hardcore has always been, I've always had friends in the hardcore scene, but you know how it is. It's like the other half of the heavy music scene.

Speaker 3 (00:08:00):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:08:00):

It's like the two halves. But the thing that I always was jealous of, the hardcore scene was exactly that. It seems like the friendships are for life and the have each other's back thing. You guys aren't just saying that. So I've always thought that that's really, really cool.

Speaker 3 (00:08:21):

Absolutely,

Speaker 2 (00:08:21):

And I've been super impressed by just how much I bump into people that I remember from that hardcore scene from 10 years ago, from 20 years ago that still know each other, still have each other's backs, and who I don't know somehow have infiltrated all aspects of the industry and you don't always find it with metal so much. And so I've always kind of been a little angry at metal that it couldn't figure out how to socially adapt in quite the same way. So I've always thought that it's impressive.

Speaker 3 (00:08:59):

It's a lucky thing to be a part of. And the fucked up thing for me is that I grew up here in dc, the first show I ever went to was a Fugazi show, the Ethics of Fugazi, the ethics of minor threat, the ethics of our scene, and just sort of that DIY mentality of we don't need a label, we don't need this. We're going to create this direct link with fans that are like-minded. That's actually the music industry in every single genre now. And so for me, it's a trip. I look at myself as a student more than anything, so I'm just always looking for different kinds of projects. It's a weird discography that I have, but it gives me this weird perspective where I worked on the first One Direction album. It's about the furthest thing from heavy music that anybody could ever do.

(00:09:56):

It's complete pop project. It's completely in a different world, but One Direction is big because One Direction created a direct marketing link between them and their fans. So for me, coming from my world just to go, wow, actually what we were onto back in the day is what the whole thing has turned into is it's really cool. It's really I think a positive change, a positive macro change across the whole industry because now it really is a little bit more. If you build it, they will come and if you connect with fans without a lot of filters, without a lot of middle people, you can have great success. So it's cool that we all grew up in these scenes. It's cool that we have that perspective and I think I look back on the way records were marketed when I was a kid and then I look at the options that my kids have to discover new stuff and to not have it force fed to them. And it really is a cool new world and I think, I don't know if our scenes ushered in any of that change, but it's nice to see it resonating.

Speaker 2 (00:11:13):

That's actually a really fascinating take on it. I haven't heard that before, but it makes a lot of sense. So maybe it's arguable, maybe that scene didn't cause the rest of the music industry to change, but I think it's safe to say that at the very least, members of that scene who are talented and business-minded and able to adapt are well-suited for the new music industry. Maybe that explains why there's so many hardcore people in the new music industry. They're like preselected almost.

Speaker 3 (00:11:49):

Totally. I think that's a great connection point and I think in terms of music, we were all making music that we liked. That's a separate compartment, but in terms of marketing and in terms of the business model that has become the music business, we were all a little ahead of our time and I think just because it's logical, it's much more logical, especially now that we have easy access to fans, it's much more logical to create a direct link and a direct bond and direct sort of almost like polling of what they're liking about something that we're doing. It makes just much more business sense than, okay, here's this middle person who has experience with something that kind of sounds like my band or whatever, and they're going to push it to these people and force it down these people's throats. It's kind of like an intuitive change. So I feel like maybe we were just a little ahead of our time in terms of how would people like to discover music.

Speaker 2 (00:12:54):

I think it's a wonderful change, by the way, a lot of people, they get very nostalgic about the old days, but I think that they've got amnesia. Honestly,

Speaker 3 (00:13:07):

I think you're right.

Speaker 2 (00:13:08):

I really do think they've got amnesia. I think they forget

Speaker 3 (00:13:10):

Totally

Speaker 2 (00:13:11):

Just how it wasn't easier before maybe there were more physical sales. I mean there were more physical sales, but actually getting a shot before was borderline impossible. So it's not like there was all this opportunity before. Totally. It was borderline impossible to get noticed, and then you did have to go through all those gatekeepers and those gatekeepers didn't always make good decisions. I know plenty of those gatekeepers who would say things like, well, you only got to be right twice a year,

Speaker 3 (00:13:47):

And they really only did. That was true at that time.

Speaker 2 (00:13:50):

Exactly. But I mean, what does that say? If you only had to be right twice a year kind of says your job's bullshit.

Speaker 3 (00:13:57):

Totally. And there's already 10 or 15 genres, so if you're only right twice, then what happened with all those other styles? Now there's so many more opportunities for success too, and you don't have to have a radio hit. It's still a great road, but there's so many other paths and I have so many friends who are enjoying being successful musicians without taking those traditional roots and it's so cool to see. I do agree. I think we're in a really cool time for music. I'm hearing bands make really outside the box cool stuff too, which I hadn't felt in a long time. So I think the earth is shaking in a good way.

Speaker 2 (00:14:42):

Well, it seems like when the digital era came around and the Napster thing became a cultural thing that the death of the music industry kind of was like a cancer that infected everybody's psyche. And I mean it did and it took almost 20 years to cycle through, but I feel like there was a time period where some people were more positive than others, but collectively everybody felt like this ship was just going down and shit was over, whether it was over in five years or 10 years or two years, that was the argument, but everyone just agreed that it was over. And so I think that that was being reflected in some of the talent that was being discovered. It just seemed like in some ways music was getting worse, production was getting worse, everything was just getting worse because everyone was buying into that lie. But I feel like in the past few years we've turned the corner and music's getting better again, production's getting a lot better. There's all these new ways for musicians to become successful. It's definitely a new age and it's a great one, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:15:58):

Totally. And I think we're reminded and I felt that whole awful sort of bottom fallout too. We think we all lived it. For me, I just think the industry has made some mistakes in terms of reacting to change the Napster, and I was actually reading an article about that this morning about how the music industry just had a terrible reaction to Napster and didn't understand how to embrace it and didn't know what to do, and it was because revenues really bottomed out. It was a dark time financially, and I think the other mistake that was made is there was all this focus on songs as opposed to artists. We've had our biggest successes in these last decades by investing in artists. This is an amazing artist that you have to know and you have to invest in and you have to really live with to understand how genius they are.

(00:17:01):

In our panic, we went towards here's a smash single, this is going to be a number one. This is a great, oh, this is a great song. Oh, this one's hooky. All this just stupid shit. It just really made us into glorified advertising agents. I really think that died too after a couple of years and now we're back to investing in artists again, which is exactly where we should be and we found a new way to do it. I do it all the time with Spotify. I will literally just go, man, I've never gone through a country phase and now that I have every single country record on my Spotify, I'm going to see what I don't know what Brad Paisley sounds like. I'm going to check it out. I'm going to hit shuffle. And it's like all of a sudden I'm getting to know Brad Paisley, but I'm not listening to his latest single, I'm listening to some track 10 on some weird album from four years ago. There's really a way now to get back into artists, so I think we're kind of in a return to form there. It's just in a digital way.

Speaker 2 (00:18:07):

It's funny that during the dark times, that's what the smart people kept saying. They kept saying, look, Bruce Springsteen failed three times before he got Big Pink Floyd failed before they got big. The Beatles sucked before they were big, REM was a band for over 10 years before they got big. All these huge artists have this similar story just about where they were not overnight successes. They were developed artistically. Artist developments, what we need. That's what the smart people kept saying during the dark times.

Speaker 3 (00:18:41):

A lot of those smart people were saying it on their way out the door. They got fired for saying it.

Speaker 2 (00:18:45):

Yep. I know that's what's tragic about the whole thing is that there were a few people who were sounding the alarm saying, this is like the stock market. You have to stay in it and you have to keep on going long-term with these artists. You can't stop looking at the artists just because things got weird for a few years.

Speaker 3 (00:19:11):

Totally. And Steve Jobs fucked us too. Damn it Steve. He made it a game of how many songs can you fit on a blah, blah blah, which is actually the exact opposite of what has made our industry great and innovative for years because in order to fit a million songs on blah, blah, blah, you have to make them all sound like shit.

Speaker 2 (00:19:31):

This is true.

Speaker 3 (00:19:32):

And so I think we went into a weird world there because if you look at the success of the music industry, it's like, okay, now we're going to rerelease this shit on cassette. Now we're going to rerelease this shit on CD Now we got a laser disc, whatever. We stopped doing the next innovative thing and that really, really changes the whole dynamic of what artists are able to create. If you remember, like Brian Wilson was excited about Quad and so he was making records for these sonic experiences that could only happen if you got this new technology. I think we've limited artists to a certain extent for a while by being like, Nope, it's got nothing to do with any of that shit. You just have to make the catchiest song you can make or whatever you do you have to do. It's what happens in the song as opposed to how was the song presented?

(00:20:32):

How does the song sound? What ground did you break? So I think that was a really tough moment too, which is, okay, sonics don't matter anymore. Sonic innovation doesn't matter anymore. I'm a record producer, so if you tell me that my file used to be 55 megabytes and now it's four, I got to ask myself, okay, what's missing? And then I'm going to go listen to that file and be like, okay, there's a lot missing. And the whole art form that I loved has completely changed. Nobody gives a fuck if I recorded the symbols to tape anymore because you can't hear it. There's a real disconnect I think with the traditional artistry that we all know and love and then compressing it all so it all fit onto an iPod.

Speaker 2 (00:21:28):

Well, thankfully streaming is fixing that.

Speaker 3 (00:21:31):

Yeah, totally. Thankfully, and Spotify sounds good. I don't know what they do. I think they ju their mix bus or something. I think theres a, maybe

Speaker 2 (00:21:39):

They do.

Speaker 3 (00:21:41):

I swear to God there's ozone on the mix bus or some mastering software or some shit because when I listen to a record on Apple Music, I'm like, Ugh,

Speaker 2 (00:21:51):

Have you heard Title HiFi?

Speaker 3 (00:21:52):

No. Is it better?

Speaker 2 (00:21:53):

Fuck yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:21:54):

Oh, okay, amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:21:55):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:21:56):

I haven't checked the subscription price was a real barrier to me.

Speaker 2 (00:22:01):

What it said like 20 bucks.

Speaker 3 (00:22:03):

Yeah, it's 20 bucks. Not that I'm not, it's a tax write off for me. It's not a big deal. It just felt like, Hey, fuck you.

Speaker 2 (00:22:09):

Seriously, they really messed up with their marketing. I think most people have a, Hey fuck you attitude towards them, but you should really check out the Hi-Fi version. It sounds great.

Speaker 3 (00:22:22):

Nice. I had heard that about it and I know that was one of their points, but like you said, it got lost in the shuffle of all the botched marketing. They're actually embroiled in a huge lawsuit now. Did you see that?

Speaker 2 (00:22:35):

I did not, and I hope that it doesn't take them down because I see them as a force for good.

Speaker 3 (00:22:40):

Yeah, no, I feel you. It depends on they're being accused of duking their numbers to help out their friends. It's like big numbers like Beyonce and Kanye, they're being accused of manipulating the streams or adding fake streams or something like that. They've denied it as fake news, but I've heard about it quite a bit and read about it quite a bit and the numbers really don't make sense, so they're going to have to have a pretty good explanation. It is a criminal proceeding. Yes, God dammit. Let's see what happens.

Speaker 2 (00:23:11):

Can't anyone just play fair?

Speaker 3 (00:23:14):

Well, I mean it is fucked up and off on a tangent, so you can bring me back in a second, but that companies like that actually have the ability to juke the numbers and really there's no accountability at all. Nobody actually knows. There's literally no oversight over whether or not Spotify counted correctly or title counted correctly or Pandora counted correctly. And I live in DC so I got really into lobbying for the Music Modernization Act. I've been on Capitol Hill all last year listening to everybody listening to my colleagues pitch that new law and that law doesn't create much oversight over whether or not the numbers are right either. There's a audit right, once a year, so I'm following that suit very closely because if they did manipulate, then that would give us a legal precedent to build on to create that oversight, and I think it would be really helpful for a lot of people because literally nobody knows.

Speaker 2 (00:24:20):

Wait, this is a great tangent to go on. I'm going to follow you there because I haven't had anyone who's been this close to this on the podcast and I'm personally actually really curious about it. Do you think it's a step in the right direction though?

Speaker 3 (00:24:35):

The law that we passed? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:24:36):

It's

Speaker 3 (00:24:37):

A step in the right direction, so it's fucked up. It's like, yes, this law helps in a lot of ways. It gave us a lot more recourse if we're going to file a lawsuit,

Speaker 2 (00:24:51):

That's a big if though,

Speaker 3 (00:24:52):

Right? And most of my friends can't afford that kind of thing or don't know that they need to sue somebody or whatever. So there is some progress I think that we're going to make with the law just in its passage. The issues that I have have to do with implementation and oversight, and that's what everybody's talking about now, and really I look at the whole thing. This is a fricking, like Spotify counts how many songs they play internally every day. There's no way their internal numbers are off,

Speaker 2 (00:25:32):

Of course, not at least not off by too much,

Speaker 3 (00:25:35):

Right? Because they have to do all sorts of internal checks to make sure you weren't sitting there playing your own song 6,000 times.

Speaker 2 (00:25:44):

I can tell you from running a software company that's far, far orders of magnitude less complex than Spotify

Speaker 1 (00:25:51):

That

Speaker 2 (00:25:51):

It's hard to get exact numbers, but you can get directionally accurate numbers. You can get in a pretty close ballpark, but there's so many variables that change from minute to minute.

(00:26:07):

I can just tell you for instance, with URM, our member count, we never know what the exact count is because there's always X number of people whose credit card failed, but they want to stay. Then X number of people whose credit card failed, but they want to leave. And then some people who are brand new, but they're there for free. Some people who are there for free because they're part of the industry and they don't count. There's all these, if you go through all the different cases, there's a lot more than just we have X number of members paying X amount. There's all these edge cases which add up to a certain percentage of question mark. And so I'm sure that for something like Spotify, that's like orders of magnitude more complicated. But still, that said, I do think that it is possible to get at least somewhere close, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:27:06):

Yep. The thing is I look at that and I go, okay, they're pretty close. They're going to have a margin of error, but they're going to be pretty close on their accounts. What needs to happen now to properly implement this law is that transaction file that a Spotify or Pandora generates every day. That transaction file needs to be shared with the entities that own the rights, whether it's be ascap, your publishing company, this new mechanical license and collective that we're forming from the law. The file needs to be shared digitally and we need to have systems on the other end that can ingest that file and then ping the royalty information and then spit out what we're owed all automatically. That cuts out so much bullshit and so much leakage and so much human error. And so many of the things that make us scratch our heads when we get our royalty statements, and this is no brainer, you ran a software company, so you know what I'm talking about technically is the easiest thing in the world is you create API access or you just push the transaction file every day, and then you have a system that ingests it and then boom, automatically whatever rights data is attached to it gets pinged and all the monies go to the associated parties.

(00:28:36):

That's easy. There are so many barriers to it that are fascinating and fucked up in their own way that may make it so that we don't implement the law in the way that I'm describing. And if we don't implement the law in the way that I'm describing, then this law will not bring that much change to that many people. And that's my honest read, being in the guts of it and being really proud of the passage of it and all the people that worked so hard on it. And so really just did an amazing thing. I'm not taking anything away from the victory, but for me, it's funny, I always say this, but there's two expressions that apply, which is the devil is in the details.

Speaker 2 (00:29:26):

Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (00:29:28):

And God is in the details and they both apply. So we get it right, we get it right, and if we don't, it's just as bad as it's always been, quite honestly, unless you get in a lawsuit and then you've got some really cool recourses and there's a little bit of stuff about rates going up and there's some great stuff in the law as is, but I just think if we can implement a data standard that enforces the law and that really enables compliance, then all parties, all stakeholders, whether you're a streamer, a songwriter, a publisher, a label, I think everybody can make more money and enjoy what they do more and spend more time being creative and not chasing data points around. That's what I want to see.

Speaker 2 (00:30:19):

Well, so my question then is would that data collection law or standard that you're talking about be built on the back of this law? Do you feel like this law?

Speaker 3 (00:30:31):

Yep.

Speaker 2 (00:30:31):

So then it is a step in the right direction, just not enough.

Speaker 3 (00:30:35):

It is. It's all about, it's in the regulations now is you pass a law and then they do a bunch of regulations. So what I did is I described that same data standard in a public comment to the copyright office because the copyright office is advising on the regulations and maybe that hits the right person, or I can go down there and talk to them a little bit. It's fun being in DC because I can actually jump and do some of this stuff, but if we get the regs, it could be a great law. It could be a really great thing for everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:31:09):

And just out of curiosity, how long do you think something like that could take?

Speaker 3 (00:31:14):

There's this two year period where everybody's supposed to be figuring it out, and that's what everybody's doing right now. So I think we could see some change within the next couple of years.

Speaker 2 (00:31:27):

So this is in a 10 year deal? It could happen soon,

Speaker 3 (00:31:30):

I think so. I mean, like I'm saying, technologically, it's the easiest thing in the world. Literally easy. It's just about you run into hiccups that you would never think mattered, but really do in this current system because the royalty rate for streaming is not like a penny rate. So it's like, let's just say for argument's sake, if every song yielded a penny royalty, every song that spun, then it would be a no-brainer. You would get that transaction file from the streamers, you would multiply everything that you saw by 1 cent, and then you would pay the interested parties a fraction of that cent, whoever owns the rights. But these companies, Spotify or Apple Music or whatever, they're all on a variable royalty rate, which is one of the most complex algebraic equations you could hope to apply to the music business, which is their rate is based on monthly subscription revenue, which fluctuates. So the rate fluctuates two. So it creates this weird sort of thing where if you just push how many times the song's played and then your publishing company is doing some quantification of who owns the rights, you can't actually apply money to that until what the royalty rate for April is or May or whatever.

Speaker 2 (00:32:54):

God, that's complicated.

Speaker 3 (00:32:56):

It gets really complicated. And so I'm advising on all that stuff too. I actually have a music tech startup in this space. We basically just made software that would facilitate the concept that I'm talking about in terms of ingesting that daily transaction file. I see a way this could all work really, really well. It's just that we have to be really smart about those details in terms of, okay, well if we don't know the royalty rate for April yet, we collect all the data, we split it up by all the rights owners, and then as soon as you publish that royalty rate, our software may be able to just apply the rate right at the end so that you get it monetized at the end of the month or whenever the royalty rate's published. There's all sorts of little details like that that I see as solutions, but the barriers to having that easy data flow are more than I ever thought. And some of 'em are head scrapers.

Speaker 2 (00:33:57):

And do you mean that they're institutional barriers or like you said, if the technology is there, then the barriers have to be people, right?

Speaker 3 (00:34:06):

Yeah, and it's two things, right? Well, it's a combination of things, but the ones that come to my head are this is the music industry. So there's that fear that if you're transparent with money and you're a gatekeeper that you're going to make less money. That's something that I run into all the time where I go, okay, you guys are idiots. I understand the thinking of hoarding the cash and not publishing numbers. I understand the old music business, we all made a lot of money that way, but in this music business in the streaming age, if you do that, then you're killing the biggest currency we have in the music business now, which is our data. If you are not transparent with data, then you can't sell data to market research firms or do any of the things that people do with data in internet industries. So that is always a fun conversation for me to have with somebody where they go, we've always kept our numbers close, we've never shared our numbers with anybody. I go, okay, this is what you're missing out on. You're missing out on six more revenue streams that you could have if you just had robust investor grade data. So that's something that we run into all the time in terms of is there a lack of will for transparency with certain gatekeepers? And that answer is yes, of course.

Speaker 2 (00:35:32):

Yeah, it's the

Speaker 3 (00:35:33):

Music, totally. The other thing that we run into is just like, this is how I've always done it and I can't think about doing it any other way. And it was a big enough change when streaming came into the picture that we get an Excel file at the end of every month that's supposed to tell us that exactly who played and how many times and whatever. That's already enough for us to ingest and we're just not ready to look at a new system. This is what's been working. And that's always a really fun discussion that I have with people too, because I go, okay, yeah, great, we're not even, streaming hasn't even scaled yet. We have no idea how much bigger this is going to get, and you are not going to be able to keep up with that 30 day report. That 30 day report is like a zillion lines of data. How do you make sense of it? Especially it's scale. So there is resistance to, I mean look, it's human nature. You come to somebody with an amazingly simple revolutionary solution to a problem that they've always had and they just look at you, you have two heads. I would wonder when they started Uber and they were like, no, no, no, it's going to be an app. Everybody was just, I'm sure people in the taxi industry were like, fuck you.

Speaker 2 (00:37:01):

I think they still are, man, I was just in Berlin and I tried using Uber and there's no, there's Uber, but there's no Uber, they're all taxis. So I asked someone about that and they told me it was something to do with the taxi mafia. So I do believe that what you're saying is true, that there's probably very, very powerful people who do not want that change

Speaker 3 (00:37:32):

And they just don't see it. The Goldman Sachs projection for streaming gross revenue by 2030 is double what we made in our biggest year as an entire industry. So I'm sitting there going,

Speaker 2 (00:37:48):

Really?

Speaker 3 (00:37:48):

Yes. And so I sort of go to my friends, I go, well, alright, well how are you going to capitalize on the growth? And they say, oh, well we'll just go with the flow. We're going to have our hits, whatever. And I go, that's never going to work because that gross revenue is going to go to the distributors who are your distributors? And they go, oh, well, Spotify, apple Music. And I go, no, you're wrong. Your distributors are at t and Verizon. They're going to bundle those services and they're going to give music away for free, which Verizon just announced with Apple Music. Apple Music is free with Verizon, and how the hell are you going to know how much was your catalog and how much was somebody else? That's first of all, you're not, you got no accountability. And second of all, at and t and Verizon, if they're your distributor, they're going to come to you and they're going to say, alright, Spotify, you've got a 70 million user base, you charge people $10 a month for subscription.

(00:38:51):

We're going to bundle your service and you're going to reach 2 billion people and you're going to be stoked because everybody that works for your company is going to be on 2 billion devices and whatever. But we want the subscription price to be $2 in our bundle. The problem is Spotify is going to say yes, right? Of course they are. And we are all beholden. All of us are beholden to that $2 subscription price. And so it creates this thing where, how do you leverage against that? And the only way I can see it, the only way to leverage against that is to commoditize our works. The only way to do that is to say, okay, we have our own data investor grade robust data that came from this new data standard that we created with the streamers. We have this data that tells us exactly what Taylor Swift was worth across the entire internet streaming ecosystem in the month of April.

(00:39:57):

She ran this much advertising revenue, she generated this many streams with this many of your subscribers, our own numbers. That is the only way that you can go to at and t and go, alright, if you want Taylor Swift on your fucking platform, this is what she's worth. And if you don't pay us the embedded subscription price of $4 or $5 or whatever, we're yanking Taylor Swift out of your music service. That's the only leverage we're going to have. And you can't do it on funny numbers. And that's sort of my message with the whole thing. And I got to tell you, most people hear it and they're like, dude, you're so smart. You're right. Blah, blah, blah. And then they just don't want to do anything about it. Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and

Speaker 2 (00:40:48):

You should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy U RM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before. If you remember, you already know how amazing. It's at the beginning of the month. Nail the mix members, get the raw Multitracks to used song by artists like Lama God, OPPE, Shuga, bring the Horizon, Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Broach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air. You also get access to M Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized fixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks clear for use of your portfolio.

(00:41:44):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics at game staging, mastering loan and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content in, man, let me tell you. This stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career, head over to URM academy slash enhanced to find out more. There is a precedent though for something like this working in the past SoundScan, dude. Totally.

Speaker 3 (00:42:43):

And that's exactly my startup's called True Stream, and that's exactly what we call what we tell people we say for the digital age.

Speaker 2 (00:42:50):

Yeah, that's the first thing that came to mind was there was a time period before SoundScan and at some point someone, see, I don't know the people behind SoundScan, but I imagine at some point they had a similar fear that no one knows what the hell's going on. So how can anything be accurate?

Speaker 3 (00:43:13):

Absolutely. And that gives you leverage. Music business is all about leverage to a certain extent. It's usually creative leverage, but now we need to get smart about our data too. But

Speaker 2 (00:43:22):

It would also give you leverage over companies like Walmart and

Speaker 3 (00:43:27):

These

Speaker 2 (00:43:28):

Huge companies. And so I just see that as there's your parallel that you're right, that is the only way that you can have any leverage against a conglomerate world consuming giant like at and t.

Speaker 3 (00:43:41):

Totally. And look, we want to be on at t, we want to participate in that Goldman Sachs revenue. We can create a really symbiotic healthy ecosystem where we all win at t included. But we have to be smart about it and man, it's crazy music business. If anything, we used to be tech savvy and we really had a weird knee jerk reaction and just sort of like what we were talking about earlier, music business needs to get smart about adaptability and what we do to protect ourselves longterm.

Speaker 2 (00:44:16):

Absolutely. It's funny because one of my reasons for starting URM, in addition to seeing a hole in the market and feeling like rock and metal education for producers was just nowhere. I was also taught that you need to have several streams of income to make it work in music. That's just the way

Speaker 3 (00:44:42):

Absolutely

Speaker 2 (00:44:42):

Of the future. But the thing that I just think is incredible in my experience is how many people I met who were so anti the idea of doing anything technologically advanced. If you're also a producer or a musician, you're not allowed to do this kind of stuff. It is this weird cultural thing and that weird cultural thing is going to hold us back if it's not changed.

Speaker 3 (00:45:12):

Absolutely. And I think there are people who are starting to really take a look at all this stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:45:20):

I agree.

Speaker 3 (00:45:21):

I'm confident that we're going to land in the right place and that it's going to be a good thing for music. I mean, I look at the whole thing, where are we going to get our next great album from? And you got to have healthy revenue flow and everybody's sort of happy in order to get those seminal albums. So I see us moving in the right direction and I hope we keep going.

Speaker 2 (00:45:47):

Well, I totally agree. It's not about the money, but I do believe that reward attracts great minds. Great minds are going to go somewhere else, so there's no reward. Same way that the Great Minds kind of left orchestral music and went into Soundtracking. Now the great orchestral composers write movie soundtracks where they can get paid, they're not going to get paid for World premiering an orchestra piece with the New York Philharmonic, just not the same way as writing a similar piece for a movie.

Speaker 3 (00:46:24):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:46:25):

So they shifted to where they could get paid. The same thing is going to happen or does happen with albums. If we want great artists, there need to be great rewards. There used to be really, really great rewards for artists. That was the dream that so many artists built their drive off of was the old dream of becoming some, it's not about being a pop star, but about being a hugely successful musician. So I definitely do think that the reward, it's directly proportional to the level of the talent that you attract.

Speaker 3 (00:47:02):

Absolutely. And you know what? I think we have a better shot now than ever if we get it right just because at least we know the gross is going up from there. I think it gets a lot sunnier. It's just about, again, the devil in the details. We got to get it right. Got to make sure we have data leverage or else I think it could be a really grim thing.

Speaker 2 (00:47:33):

Absolutely. Alright, so that was quite a tangent.

Speaker 3 (00:47:36):

Why don't we talk about you a little bit? It's all good. Thanks for letting me go there. It's fun. It's fun stuff. And it's been fun to be in DC for all this shit.

Speaker 2 (00:47:45):

I love talking to people about this stuff, who know what they're talking about. And there's not that many people who know what they're talking about on this one. So you see a lot of misinformation online, A lot of people really, really angry but not pointed in any one direction. And so it's good to hear someone who understands what's going on that's actually trying to make a difference with it, who has a solution in mind. It's a very different conversation when you're talking to someone like that.

Speaker 3 (00:48:15):

Right on. Well thanks. I mean, part of it's the proximity factor. I moved back to DC and I'm like, I'm here

Speaker 2 (00:48:21):

May as well.

Speaker 3 (00:48:22):

And it, it's been fun too. I like wearing a different hat every once in a while. It's like I love what I do, but always trying to expand it.

Speaker 2 (00:48:31):

All right. Well, on the topic of your productions, your production spanned the range from heavy stuff to pop to Lin. Like you said, you had to learn melody to work with all these great pop producers. Do you get into a different headspace when you're working with a pop act versus Amity Affliction?

Speaker 3 (00:48:55):

I think so. But it's not completely conscious. In other words, I try and go into every session, every room with as little agenda or preplan as possible and just sort of go with the flow. So in terms of process, there's a lot of similarities. You're getting into a room, you want to make great music with people and not have any barriers and take risks and have fun. All those mentalities are the same. I think for me, the difference in pop was a lot of times I'm working with other writers as opposed to the artist themself. And that can be fun too. I have a lot of great friends who are great writers and producers, but I really, really connect with artists. I really like having an immediate throwing out an idea and seeing an artist either get excited about it or get pissed off about it or whatever they're going to do. And I don't give a shit. I throw out a lot of ideas that people probably think suck.

Speaker 2 (00:50:03):

Do you think that that's part of what makes you good on the pop sessions is the ability to just churn out ideas and not worry about if they're going to get cut?

Speaker 3 (00:50:13):

Yes, that's definitely my style. And it's funny, the grass is always greener. I always envy people who can come in and just go, this is exactly what I want to do. I look at that as the John Lennon archetype who can just come in and be like, this is the vision. This is exactly what we're going to do. We're not going to veer from it and it's going to be amazing. I always envy that, but that's not really my style. I'm a little bit more like, Hey, we could do it like this, but if you're not feeling that we could try this and okay, wait, I'm hearing something like this and okay, you like that one part of it, but let's morph this or whatever. I'm a little bit more of a throw out nine or 10 ideas to catch one vibe that everybody gets into. And I really, really like that feeling when you're breaking new ground, when everybody's excited and everybody thinks this is the best song that they've ever worked on in their life. There's a high there that I think everybody really enjoys. And that's sort of what I get excited about is just when it feels good and everybody is stoked about what they're hearing.

Speaker 2 (00:51:21):

I mean, sounds to me from what I know about John Lennon, that even he had a collaborator who was more like you. I mean, wasn't George Martin more that guy that had the 10 different options?

Speaker 3 (00:51:34):

And I think McCartney, I think to a certain extent was in that context. I think McCartney was that counter where he was very adaptive and he was a really good singer and could sing anything and could try this and try that. I think there was that, and I think both of them had that fifth Beatle. I don't know. I know the lore.

Speaker 2 (00:51:55):

Yeah, I mean same.

Speaker 3 (00:51:57):

But I don't know. And it's hard to, it's all five of those people are just fucking legends and it's hard to, I don't know, sometimes the best explanation for anything that any of them did is that they were from another planet or whatever. Logical is like, who knows? But yeah, I do think that what made the Beatles strong as opposed to maybe some of Lennon's solo stuff or McCartney's solo stuff was that ability to counterbalance and go, okay, that vision's amazing. It's only going to work in a musical context if we do it like this and sort of interpret the vision. I think those are the strongest partnerships.

Speaker 2 (00:52:40):

So do you working with artists who come in and are like, this is the vision and then you help them get there? Or how do you jive with that?

Speaker 3 (00:52:50):

A hundred percent. I really feel like my job as a producer is really just to help bands get exactly what they're looking for. Because bands have a vision and I always trust it because they're on tour, they know their fans, they know what works, they know what, and it should always come from the band. I like to push and challenge and find the holes is my style. If you come to me and your course is amazing and I think the verse is weak, I'll push you on it. And then if you push back and go, no dude, it's the coolest fucking thing. We're just going to do it this. This is just a demo. It's going to have a distorted vocal or whatever. If there's a clear vision for it, then I, I'm going to get pushed back from that artist, then I'll get excited about that. I go, okay, they know what they're doing. And if I go, that verse is, I'm just not feeling it. And the artist goes, yeah, yeah, I kind of threw that in there, but I really like the chorus. I'll go. Cool. Let's see what we can do to bring the verse up to the level of the chorus. When

Speaker 2 (00:54:00):

You're working with an artist like Panic at the Disco, do they come in with 8,000 ideas and it's a matter of narrowing those down. I'm wondering, because obviously they are chameleons, how much of that comes from you and how much is that just the gig?

Speaker 3 (00:54:21):

Yeah, it's funny, I only worked with panic on the first album and at that time they had their own Lenon McCartney thing where Ryan Ross was this visionary guy. He wasn't like a virtuoso guitar player or anything like that, but the things that he had in his head were really focused and really specific. And it was like, if we do this, it's going to be amazing. And that was Ryan. And then you've got Brendan, who is the dude is like a virtuoso. He's like that dude that could pick up an oboe and have never played it before and you throw him in the corner for 15 minutes. That guy, he's just that guy, so talented. So the combination there was generating tons of ideas. And my role in there was really, I think my role in that panic album was the guy who says No is I was able to go, you know what?

(00:55:30):

That's not going to work. Or We already covered that ground. Try this. I really played a role of like you described of like, this is going to work. This is a cool idea, but it's not going to develop. Try this in a different key, whatever. And it got to a point where other parts of other songs were generated, whole songs were generated in the pre-production process on that album. It was a really inspired thing, I think, for all of us. But yeah, they have their built-in chemistry. So I don't know. I haven't worked with them since Fever. I don't know now what works, what doesn't. I'm so happy for Brendan that he's enjoying the success that he's enjoying. My sense of it is that he was able to put together his own vision and become both the visionary and the virtuoso, and that's why he's doing so well. Now.

Speaker 2 (00:56:29):

That's an interesting take on it and probably accurate. That's very hard to do and very, very rare. But I think that's almost necessary when your vision spans so much ground.

Speaker 3 (00:56:43):

Totally. And those guys have enjoyed a lot of success. There's a lot of talent there. So it's really nice to see it come full circle and to see them be humongous again and have this number one song, it's pretty amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:56:57):

I mean, you've made it really clear that you love the writing part of things. And so when you're writing, when you're with an artist, this isn't an artist specific situation. When you're working with a band, the writing producer does kind of become the fifth member. That is kind of what happens in most cases. But what do you go through mentally when that's not what's needed?

Speaker 3 (00:57:19):

Yeah, I mean, it's actually funny. I actually would characterize myself as a producer first, and I'm actually a reluctant writer.

Speaker 2 (00:57:27):

Interesting.

Speaker 3 (00:57:28):

I'm actually overjoyed. I just look at the whole thing as an equation. A song needs to be a hundred percent, especially in 2019. And going forward, in this day and age, the bar is so high, everything needs to be a hundred percent. And so if you come in here and you've got a hundred percent, I couldn't be more stoked.

Speaker 2 (00:57:47):

Okay, I got it.

Speaker 3 (00:57:48):

My dream was to be like Bob Rock. My dream was to just be like a fricking sonic entrepreneur and really just make things sound amazing. And that was my dream. And it still is. So if the song feels like a hundred percent to all of us, and I agree, I'm usually the first person to not want to fuck with anything that would be considered writing. I only consider the writing part to be the actual composition stuff. And I really only enter into the composition stuff in two ways. One, if I'm booked on a writing session and it's known that we are there to write a song or come up with something new, obviously I'm part of the composition. And then on the records with bands, sometimes in pre-production, we all get excited about something and a part completely changes. And maybe I picked up the guitar and maybe I didn't, or maybe I had a vision for it and maybe I didn't.

(00:58:45):

Or maybe I picked up all these amazing melody tricks from Max Martin, so maybe I'm applying those or whatever. There are times occasionally when it crosses into a compositional thing, and that's sort of my writing stance. So it's the opposite. I actually, I just think, okay, well if the song's a hundred percent amazing, let's now take it to 200% with sonics and performance and vision and effects and all that great stuff. Or if a song is 80%, if there's no bridge, let's make sure we finish that and then we'll take it the rest of the way after that.

Speaker 2 (00:59:27):

So it's just whatever's required.

Speaker 3 (00:59:28):

That's all it is. And I really look at it in a utilitarian way, and it just goes back to me being a fucking hardcore kid. If somebody that we did an Ashes record with was like, Hey, your bridge, blah, blah, blah, I would've left the studio. I would've been so fucking pissed off. And I always approach it like that of you really write the songs. This is your band. You know what I mean? I'm not trying to step on it, but hey, I happen to have this idea. Oh, holy shit, it's working. It inspired some other idea, or we tweaked it or whatever, and now we got a complete song. Let's move to the next.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):

So at this stage in your career, I'm sure that bands come to you because they know your work and they're coming for you to do what you do. I'm sure that that's 99% of the projects you work with, and you've already got trust built up, either through working with them before or just your track record. But earlier in your career when you didn't have that, how would you broach the topic of helping them write that bridge when they needed that bridge? But you weren't the Matt Squire today that has all this track record.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):

Totally. And I hope it's the same in both settings. In other words, I just want the part to be right. And I found even when I didn't have any sort of track record in that area I that if it was actually the right part or the right suggestion that it would stick. And that comes down to the environment that you create in the studio is if you have set the tone as the producer that anything goes and that we're all having fun and that this is like music and it's supposed to be exploratory and jammy and music. If you set that tone from the get go, then I think the right idea just presents itself no matter who comes up with it. And people generally trust that process. If it's any sort of combative or contentious vibe in the studio, then all the pedigree in the world isn't going to help you because you know what it's like.

(01:01:44):

Yeah. It's almost more fun to be like, ah, that guy, what the fuck was he thinking? Oh dude, this guy's supposed to be a really successful writer. He came up with the worst shit ever. You know what I mean? There's that temptation. So I think it's really just about the right part at the right time. And really, I've always believed that the producer needs to do his or her part to set the tone of every single session, whether it's a writing session or a production session or whatever. But I'm a little bit old school in that way. I really looked at this career as setting the tone, setting the vibe and sonics and performance. I really looked up to Bob Rock and Bob Eran and those sort of amazing producers or Mutt Lang who would spend, it's like a year making a record or a year and a half. That's my dream. I would do anything to do a huge long project where we really got to every single detail and

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):

The vibe has to be exactly right for so long. It's funny, when you think about those records like Metallica Black album or something, nine months, or I think a Blink 180 2 record around that time took also 11 months. Or when you think about those records that not just the technical feat of putting them together. I mean that alone is monumental, but that producer's ability to keep the vibe intact for that long, that's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):

It really is. And look at the performance of those records. Love those records or hate those records. Like black albums a very polarizing album. I actually really love it, but it's timeless. It's a huge record. And it was those guys embracing that they had to make a really impactful, timeless, lasting record. They knew that that's what they wanted to do and they didn't shit it out. And I don't think they could have, I really don't. If they had spent one less day, I just don't know if it would be the thing that it is. And of course there's a flip side. There was a lot of waste and there was a lot of, I'm sure there was a lot of bullshit in those old processes that wasted a lot of money and a lot of time, I get it, but I dunno, it's music. It's got a life of its own. If you let it dictate the terms, you are going to make something epic like that. And people wonder why those records are harder and harder to come by, and that's what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):

I totally agree with you that that's what it is. I mean, regardless of the waste, I do think that there's something to be said for staying at it and having the ability to record bad ideas and then ditch bad ideas and not worry that you're going to run out of time because you're working on a bad idea. Just the ability to get the bad ideas out of the system alone is huge.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):

Totally. And really impactful. At the end of the day, you hear those records and it's like, holy shit, this is larger than life. This takes into account every worry that I might've had and kind of tosses out the window

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):

Then that's only possible with time.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):

I mean, there are those records that are lightning striking that got done in three weeks and are incredible, but I really do think that that's the exception.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):

Yeah, it's funny because when we were just talking about that, I was in my head, I was going, I wonder how quickly they recorded. Nevermind.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):

I think that was two weeks.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):

Yeah. That's so crazy. It's like the exact opposite and it's just as impactful. So it's like, I was like, who knows? But totally different. But again, it's the music, the music, whatever that music demanded, they were able to kill it in two weeks and for the Black album it was a different thing. But I think there's something to be said for having the option.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):

Yeah. I mean, why would Nirvana need nine months?

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):

I did hear though that the mix took longer than expected

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):

Because it was demos and so it was like Andy had to do some crazy polish work to make it bring it up to that level. So I think it was a pretty big process.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):

I also heard that Kurt kept fucking with the amp settings. He wanted it one way, producer wanted another way, and so there kept on being a battle between the settings, the amp settings would mysteriously change. That's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):

It makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):

Have you ever had an artist do that to you?

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):

I mean, I'm so into what does the artist want on the amp setting that I would usually look at it like dial it in how you want it, and if I can compensate on my end for anything that I'm hearing, I'll do that. But the way your amp is set really can inspire the way you play.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):

It's interesting though because I wonder if nevermind would've did what it did if it sounded like slayer, like Kurt Cobain wanted.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):

Totally. But who fucking knows.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):

Exactly. So question about working with platinum and gold level artists. Obviously you have a lot of insight into their inner workings, and I'm just wondering if you can talk about the organization and the effort put in by these acts where that separates them. Do you think that there's something in the way that they approach work that sets them apart that you've noticed?

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):

It's a really good question because there's all different kinds. I think that one of the things is just about the bar and the standards that different artists have for their music. I've seen that bar be really high with an unsigned band. I've seen that bar be really low with a multi-platinum artist. So it's fascinating. But I think that the ones that I'm challenged by and excited about have a high standard and wait, no, I can do that better. Or this part needs to feel like this and really have an emotion that they're trying to hit or whatever. I guess in some of the more successful artists, whether it's gold, platinum or they're successful in their own way, I think it's about the standards. And I've noticed that in songwriters as well. Max Martin's one of my songwriting heroes. I got the pleasure of working near him for a long time and working with him and this dude's bar, the standard is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):

I can imagine

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):

He would never believe he only works on melody. He doesn't really do that much production or definitely not lyrics. It's just melody. And he will spend a month on the melody, and it's not that he's toiling over it every single second, he's raising the bar, he's going, you know what? I've already done that in a pre-course. How can I be more clever here? What could I do differently? How can I break new ground without being catchy? There's just all this stuff going into his melody writing, and I think people just don't realize it that you could take something like melody writing that far because most of us feel like it's an inspired thing and whatever the inspiration gave us is sort where we're supposed to be. We tweak a little bit, but it's not this other huge process. With Max, I noticed a huge difference in terms of his standards for Malade.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):

Do you know where inspiration plays in with him? Is that a part of the process and just one small part of a multi-step process?

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):

Absolutely. The inspiration is still there. It's still the same as all of us, whether it's singing into a voice note or has a track and starts vibing on it or whatever the inspiration is there. It's that first thing. It's just what happens after that. And I've even had my good friend, Savin Kaka, who's one of Max's contemporaries and runs his publishing company and is a great writer in his own right. I've heard him say this very thing, which is the inspiration part's the same as any other songwriting situation, but the aftermath and the tweakage goes to a level you've never seen, and it's not right until it's right. And some songs are sitting on a hard drive for six years, and then Max will be like, I've got it. I know how to solve this and whatever. So for me, it's been really inspiring to just learn that and know that it's okay to wait until it's ready and it's okay to beat it up even when it's mastered and go fix it and get it remastered or whatever it takes. But it's really about the standard I think at the end of the day. And I think we're all very talented in our own. We all have our own vision for what we're trying to do. I think one of the things that separates truly successful people in this business from people who are having less success is that ability to create high standards and to meet them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):

What's interesting about that is that a lot of people will tell you, well, don't work the idea to death. You don't want to kill the inspiration.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):

I know,

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):

I agree with you that standards are life, but I think that where the superhuman part comes or the different wiring from the rest of us is probably the ability to keep going without losing the inspiration for it. Because I think a lot of people, it's not that they're lazy, but they will lose inspiration if they work on something for too long, they'll lose it for it. Where it sounds like he doesn't lose it, it sounds like the inspiration stays there, he just keeps going.

Speaker 3 (01:11:59):

It's kind of both. He's okay with losing it and coming back to it and getting re-inspired so

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):

He knows how to work around it. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):

Because I think, and I don't know, I haven't talked to him about this specific facet of it, but I just know for me, as I've adapted this kind of higher standard for me, if I've lost affection for it, or if I feel like I'm going to grind it to death or whatever, then something actually might be wrong. Something actually might be off because I should be able to make something that is timeless to me and then it'll be timeless to everybody else. So if I've tired of it or if I've homogenized it or whatever it is, I'm always suspicious of that and I always go, wait, maybe that part's not right. Is this as best it could be? Is there a performance issue? If we over pro tools to something, should we retrack it? Is it just a matter of the performance isn't right? But I tend to pay strict attention to that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):

And is that what adopting those higher standards looks like for you? Asking more questions? What does it look like an example day?

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):

Yeah, I mean, I'm lucky as shit, mind you, I work with amazing, amazing talented bands, right? So it's like

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):

They'll meet you there.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):

Yeah. So I'll ask that question and they'll come up with a number of different answers. And I always say this to people that I want to be the dude that comes up with the question way more than I want to be the dude who comes up with the answer. Because if I put the challenge to you, like this pre-course sucks or whatever, and I don't put it that way, but if I put that challenge to you and you come up with a different pre-course, then it's yours and it'll have that much more identity. And I think identity is what makes bands successful, is having that signature of only they do this. And so if they come up with the answer, it's always going to have that stamp.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):

And that's actually a very interesting way to look at it because two different producers will probably spot that the pre-chorus sucks, but one might take your approach to it. Let the artist find what they believe is the solution and keep their identity, whereas another producer might just give it to them in the end. You hear a lot of backlash against producers who try to impose their own vision on pans because

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):

It's cheap, right? Yeah. Producers who feel like if they didn't write on it, they're not going to make that much money, or it is usually a financial motive on shit like that. And I think it sucks, and I really, really, really do everything in my power to be far away from that archetype because I think it's ugly. I wouldn't want anybody trying to write into one of my songs just because they wanted the publishing or whatever. I'm a little bit of a hippie at heart. I really just want best. I want the music to actually dictate the terms and have it be something that has some soul.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):

Honestly, I think that's the best way to be. I think that this would be a good stopping point, but I'd love to have you back on because I feel like we could just keep going.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):

Absolutely. It's been great talking to you, and I hope I answered stuff clearly. You've been

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):

A great, great guest actually.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):

Super articulate answers. I'd love to have you back on. Totally. Alright, man, well thank you so much for coming on and have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, and if anybody has any follow-up questions or wants to hit me up, I'm on Instagram at Matt Squire music.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):

The

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):

Unstoppable

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):

Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by Empire Ears. In collaboration with Grammy winning producers, engineers, and their family of touring musicians, empire Ears has developed a line of in ear monitors that deliver what you need for every mix when it comes to unrivaled stage clarity, or needing a flat and honest breath.