DAVID VINCENT: Finding Your Voice, Learning from Failure, and The Man in the Mirror

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast and now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:08):

Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way.

(01:10):

All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest, I mean for me it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM podcast. My guest today is, let's put it this way, one of my metal heroes for sure. 13-year-old me is stoked about this, but 42-year-old me is happy too. The conversation was awesome. My guest is David Vincent, who is a bassist, vocalist, metal icon and outlaw country star known for his work with Morbid Angel. I am morbid, the Genitor is Ultimas and of course his solo work in the country genre and along with an extensive catalog of features and other credits. He also wrote and released a book last year titled I Am Morbid 10 Lessons Learned from Extreme Metal Outlaw Country and The Power of Self-Determination. Anyways, it's a great conversation. I am stoked that he was able to find the time to do this and I introduce you, David Vincent, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:42):

Thank you, glad to be here. I've

Speaker 2 (02:44):

Been following your work and a fan of your work for a really, really long time and lots of the listeners of this podcast or the students of the school I run will ask questions, how do you develop your own sound? How do I find my artistic identity either as producers or guitar players? And my thoughts are always, you don't need to try because your personality is already there. You already are you. No matter what you try to do, you're still going to be coming at it through your own life lens. So really just focus on getting as good as possible and your own sound will come through because you have no choice. You can only have your own sound.

Speaker 3 (03:28):

I a hundred percent agree with that. Some people, they don't process it that way though. They hear something or they hear a number of things and maybe to themselves they thinking, wow, I want to be like that. And there are those who are more special than others and what I find special in the music and art and authorship that I like are the very attributes that you just stated in terms of people just looking internally for their inspiration rather than externally. And that's something that I've always done personally.

Speaker 2 (04:01):

I think it's natural maybe when people are starting to try to imitate because they don't have the skills yet to do their own thing really, so they're fumbling around. So it kind of makes sense to see or hear something that somebody did that really inspires them and try to emulate it. But I feel like while that stage is natural, it should be short-lived

Speaker 3 (04:25):

At some point unless your goal is to be a parody.

Speaker 2 (04:28):

Yes, true.

Speaker 3 (04:29):

Mine is not.

Speaker 2 (04:30):

Well, some people make an entire career off of that, which is crazy to me, but good for them.

Speaker 3 (04:36):

Let's take a guy like word kovic,

Speaker 2 (04:38):

Amazing musician

Speaker 3 (04:40):

And it's creative even though he lifts a lot from things, but that's his whole shtick and that do I take something and make it completely absurd and funny at the same time? And it's very entertaining. I mean obviously it's not everyone's cup of tea, but that kind of a thing. But he's being himself, he's taking the various stimuli that comes at him from wherever and interjecting humor and then putting it into the same format that people are already accustomed to hearing said track, sort of putting a twist on it, which is in itself very creative.

Speaker 2 (05:16):

Yeah, I actually think that weird Al is a very, very unique artist in his own just because his ability to do that is kind of, it's kind of insane just how high level it is and the level that his band is at. I mean those are all top tier musicians and all his renditions of people's songs are about as authentic as it gets. And I don't mean a really good cover band. They do it in a very artistically authentic way, which is weird to say because of what they're doing, but he's an interesting one.

Speaker 3 (05:52):

I've always thought that he and Frank Zappa have a lot in common.

Speaker 2 (05:55):

I agree. So I guess along the way for you, when did you start to figure out that you were doing your own thing? At what point did you go through the imitation phase at all when you were super young?

Speaker 3 (06:08):

I mean, I sang along with the radio. I learned my skillset on base and what have you by picking up developing my ear and playing along with some of the artists that I enjoyed at the time. But yeah, I've kind of always done my own thing, if that makes sense. I mean I've always been a pretty independent thinker, thankfully to my parents, they instilled that in me at a young age. I always question everything, don't go along with the flow just because that's what the flow is doing. I probably took that to an extreme, much to their chagrin at times. I'm not good at being anyone else, but I'm really good at being me.

Speaker 2 (06:42):

I wonder because I definitely had very supportive parents as well, but we all know if I say we, I mean people who have been in the music scene know lots of musicians who have made it work. We know people who have both come from those great parents who encouraged them and fostered their creativity. And then parents who are just the worst humans you could ever imagine and some of the most horrific stories, which kind of definitely help you understand why they start making extreme music. So I guess in a case like mine or a case like yours, I mean I don't know what your childhood was like, but what you just said is that you had cool parents. My parents were also really cool and I did not have a fucked up childhood, so somewhere along the way for me, the wires got crossed and I ended up in this style of music that doesn't make sense necessarily on the surface with a happy upbringing. How do you see it?

Speaker 3 (07:48):

Well, happy is a relative term. Fair enough. They were very, very good parents, but we were cats and dogs. Oftentimes the fundamentals of decision-making and morality, if you will, are set in stone. Now how we each decide to interpret that and take it wherever we're going to take it to, that's another story. My father is a former military guy. They were very strict to a degree, very religious. I'm none of those things, but they did give me the tools with which to discern what's going to work for me ultimately and what's not, and I accept success and failure with the same open arms because the thing is that when you make a mistake, it gives you an opportunity to grow and improve on that. There may be some sort of short-lived temporary disappointment, but I always come out the other end stronger. That's one thing that I've always encouraged people to do is to learn from your mistakes and everyone makes mistakes. We all do, but it's what we do with the knowledge of that mistake in order to redouble our efforts to do better in the future.

Speaker 2 (08:59):

Well, when you have something that at the time could be perceived as a failure, I guess nothing is really objective when we're looking at success or failure unless there's a sales figure we're trying to hit and we don't hit it. But when it comes to things that are a little more amorphous like music or how we define success, it's all up to us. But still with things that you for yourself define as failure, do you have a method that you go about learning from it and getting past it or is it just this natural process that occurs?

Speaker 3 (09:35):

It's kind of natural. It's just probably years of being on the planet for as long as I have. They say only the good die young, which in my case speaks volumes. I'm just thankful for the good and the bad for the experiences, the comedy and the tragedy. I take it all, it's all a yin and yang and it all helps Add to the next story.

Speaker 2 (09:58):

Is that always how you've seen it?

Speaker 3 (09:59):

Well, I don't know that I was as critically thinking about it as I am now. Hindsight is 2020, so as retrospect, the things that probably unnaturally did, then you start sort of the introspection part on that and you think, well, gosh, yeah, I was really annoyed at experience blank, but from that, I don't want to be annoyed, so here's what I could have done better to improve that or not involve myself in some of these things. I mean, goodness, I'm not in jail and I'm not dead, so I must be doing something right,

Speaker 2 (10:35):

Not mangled. I feel like as I get older, what I consider to be failures don't have the same emotional weight as they did when I was younger. When I was younger, smaller things would worry the shit out of me.

(10:51):

Things like a project falling apart, something like losing a record deal, things that are, I don't mean trivial little things, I mean life-changing things, an opportunity not working out. That could have been a huge game changer, things like that when I was a lot younger, I would give those a lot more energy and now of course when something like that happens, it's disappointing, but I think I have enough life experience to and enough failures under my belt to know that there's a way to turn this around and make it have been for the best and there's a way to figure out if it was my fault, how to not let this happen again in the future.

Speaker 3 (11:32):

Well, and I agree with that. We just have to do the best we can with what we work on and there is this notion of the wisdom of age, the older we get and the more adept we are at handling challenges that come our way and our view of that, the way that we internalize these things grows with time. So the more experienced you are with anything, I hope I learn something new, at least one thing new every day and if I don't, I feel like I've cheated myself, be it good or bad

Speaker 2 (12:04):

Because you're here to learn. I mean, what are you doing if you're not learning? I feel like someone said it like the meaning of life is progress. And at first I was like, that's too simple. But then I started to think about it and started to realize that the only time that I ever feel at ease is when progress is happening and I consider learning to be progress, but no matter if it's just 1% towards a goal or just getting started or something major, just the feeling of progress to me is a depression and anxiety killer and helps with the fulfillment aspect, which is very hard to define.

Speaker 3 (12:51):

I agree with all that. We all look at things the way that we're going to look at, and again, it's kind of this big circle that keeps going around. You have to experience something, you have to taste something in order to know what it tastes like. You have to feel something in order to know what it feels like. Sometimes that's painful, sometimes it's joyous, we don't know, and by the time we do know, it just adds another tool in our toolbox of being able to discern what's right for us as individuals and what's not. I

Speaker 2 (13:21):

Feel like that ranges from huge life decision type things and then down to lower level things like when a producer is for instance learning stuff online and all they do is learn online for instance, and they can't quite figure out why their mixes or their productions aren't on the level of what they're listening to, but they've never done it in real life. The first thing I think is, well, as good as these lessons are, you're not going to actually figure out how to make something sound the way you want it to sound until you're in the situation many times and just do it.

Speaker 3 (13:56):

Sure, because you watch a bunch of porn doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be good in the sack. Right.

Speaker 2 (14:02):

Well, I get some tips.

Speaker 3 (14:03):

Yeah, you got to get your feet wet.

Speaker 2 (14:05):

I think it's the same for playing live, right?

Speaker 3 (14:07):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (14:08):

I've always noticed that with very few exception. You know how on metal tours there's often local openers. What I've noticed, and this is like 99.9 9, 9 9 9, 9 9, whatever percent, tell me if your experience is different. As soon as the tour package comes on, no matter how talented the local opener is, and no matter how much of a baby band the first band in the package is, the tour package will immediately blow away the local bands and it's not because act one on the tour is that much more talented than the local band or that the local band is not talented because all great bands start as local bands, so it's because of time spent on stage. That's it. If you have a band that's been touring for years or just 30 days straight versus a band that hasn't played in a month, obviously when you get to the level of headliners that are super experienced, that goes out the window. Obviously the band that has played more is going to do a better job.

Speaker 3 (15:11):

Well, sure. I mean practice makes perfect. You don't go to the store and open up a can of perfect and drink it and there you

Speaker 2 (15:18):

Go. Wouldn't that be cool?

Speaker 3 (15:20):

Well, no, it wouldn't be cool because you have to earn everything in life. True. And I'm a big fan of earning it now. I like to help people. There have been various packages over the years that I heard something that I was pretty impressed with and if they're open to it, I mean, I don't try to insert myself where it's not wanted, but if I feel really strongly about something, I may take the singer or a band member aside and say, so stop me if you don't want to hear it, but here's what I think and this little area could be improved and this little just a few little things I said, this is my 2 cents. Whether people employ those techniques or not, that's on them at that point, but at least I feel good that I've shared something with someone when I see potential because gosh, I mean there's so much music out there these days and I'm always looking for something new to I wish there was more that I liked in my search. I may have record company A, B, C, send me boxes of CDs and if I can even find one or even a couple of tracks on one of those CDs that I like them have, that doesn't always happen. Unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (16:33):

I got to say though, that what you're describing, getting the boxes of CDs from a record company and only liking one or a few tracks, I don't think that that's a new phenomenon because I remember getting those collections of albums back even in the nineties and throwing away 95% of them, but if I found one, that's great. What I'm wondering about you walking up to musicians when you spot some talent is what are their reactions like I can see some people not reacting well to criticism while other people being very, very open and happy about it, where I'm sitting here thinking, well, if you didn't think there was some potential here, you wouldn't be even talking to them about this shit in the first place. The only reason you're offering any feedback whatsoever is because you think there's something good here.

Speaker 3 (17:25):

Well true. And again, how people respond, they know that's on them. Again, I try to say things in a constructive way. I don't browbeat people that doesn't work. There's virtually never anything good that comes from walking in like a drill sergeant and hollering at people, but talk about what's good and then maybe a couple of points about what might be improved to make what's already good even better.

Speaker 2 (17:49):

I know that what you're saying is true about the way you conduct yourself because I don't know if you remember this, do you remember more of an angel went on tour with at the Gates and dissection in the US in the mid nineties and there was a stop in Atlanta where their bus broke down so they didn't make the Atlanta show. I remember this because I really wanted to see them. I got to the club early because I was a huge fan and the club was this place called the Rec Room, which I guess was not what you guys were used to in terms of the types of venues. It's a shit hole, and I think you guys probably had played the masquerade several times in Atlanta, and then this time you were booked at the rec room, which is really odd booking where local bands play and I remember you guys got there and the place was a fucking disaster. It was a disaster. I remember you talking to the employees about cleaning the bathrooms, like cleaning the stage, getting their shit together, and then also you were dealing with the fact that at the gates and dissection were broken down in Alabama and it could have been a super stressful situation, but I remember you dealing with people in a very respectful way. It wasn't one of those situations where dude from a well-known band walks into a place and freaks the fuck out.

(19:16):

You know who the fuck I am? What is this shit? It was none of that. It was totally respectful and totally cool, and they got their shit together and cleaned the place up and then the show went great.

Speaker 3 (19:27):

Well, your memory's better than I am. I don't recall that, but I mean there's probably mean, unfortunately been many times when I've gone in and just maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bunk and I went in and just chewed someone a new asshole. But again, it's like what gets the result that you want? Is it being mean? Is it being friendly? Is it being coercive? Is it just going along to get along? I don't know. I mean, if I'm there to do my thing and I always do the best I can, I always appreciate it when everyone else's effort, whether it's a janitor or a bartender or a promoter or whatever facet of the evening that they all do as good of a job as they can as well.

Speaker 2 (20:08):

Well, they're all necessary.

Speaker 3 (20:10):

Absolutely. There's not one unnecessary thing. There's a chain. It takes an army to do any of these things. We have to respect the privates and the generals.

Speaker 2 (20:21):

I understand you not remembering it, but I was 15 and this was one of my favorite bands, and so it was kind of an eyeopening experience for me to see all you guys deal with that situation extremely professionally, because I grew up around musicians, famous classical musicians, and I experienced a lot of 'em acting like complete diva fuckheads when the sparkling water is wrong in their dressing room. It was very eyeopening to me to see that people can be super professional in the extreme music world and that the intensity of the music doesn't necessarily equal the intensity of the interactions with other people.

Speaker 3 (21:05):

It can go either way. My today answer is that I may be annoyed and I try to check all those emotions before I approach some kind of way to correct the situation.

Speaker 2 (21:15):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air, and these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jens Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more.

(22:16):

You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio, so your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material, and for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content and man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. So you said earlier that your dad's a military guy or was a military guy very strict and religious and that you were none of those things, but I want to talk about the strict thing because clearly you did get a good work ethic, so there has to be some level of being strict with that.

Speaker 3 (23:43):

I didn't appreciate it at the time, the time. I appreciate it Now, the older you get, you realize some of the things that were very annoying to you were just sort of youthful recklessness as opposed to they did well and I'm happy and we're probably closer now than we've ever been as a result of me appreciating really who they are as people and them respecting me as an adult. It's kind of twofold. It takes both. I'm very thankful that for the whole nine yards, even the stuff that at the time was really painful, I look back on it now and that's almost what was required in order for me to be where I'm at now and I'm very happy right now.

Speaker 2 (24:24):

Do you feel like any of those lessons that you learned translated into how you approached the band?

Speaker 3 (24:30):

Absolutely. Basic values and basic hard work and honesty both as a person and to your art are really important. Well, they're very important to me and that's how I conduct myself.

Speaker 2 (24:42):

Did you have a goal for the band to go to where it did commercially? Did you want it to get that big and was that kind of the stated intent from the beginning? Yeah, I know we're doing this death metal band, but it's going to go fucking far, or was it more just we're just going to have a sick ass death metal band?

Speaker 3 (25:03):

At the time, we were all very confident with what we were doing. You take the wins along with the losses and do you want something to be big and successful? Of course, who doesn't? I mean, it's an awful lot of work. It's years and years of blood, sweat and tears. I don't know that the goal was a stated thing where we're looking at a spreadsheet and by year 1995 we want to see this much revenue. It was never like that. It was always let's just be who we are, do what we do. It'll either be received or not. We were pretty confident that it would be received well, but you never know.

Speaker 2 (25:40):

There had to be though some sort of vision, I guess when it came to how to run things. You can't pull that off by accident, I think, and sustain it.

Speaker 3 (25:51):

Well, we were very diligent about rehearsal. We played a lot. We were always tight. We always knew sort of intuitively what the other guys were going to do and use that as kind of a roadmap from songwriting to performing to even time off. What

Speaker 2 (26:09):

Do you mean by it? With time off

Speaker 3 (26:10):

When we're not on stage, when we're not in the writing schedule, just interacting socially, keeping abreast of where people's heads are at. I mean, that can be something that can inspire some creativity in and unto itself, and I still do that oftentimes with the new band Ultimas, when the guys come over and we have writing sessions, oftentimes there's more that gets accomplished, sort of sitting around the fireplace with a few cocktails afterwards and sort of just discussing things that really don't have anything to do with music that are sort of the impetus for what are we going to do tomorrow. That's why I've always been a big fan of sitting in the room with your musicians all being in the same room. There's a magic to that that does not happen when you're just sort of sharing files on the internet. I'm a real big proponent of actual FaceTime with the band.

Speaker 2 (27:08):

I mean, how can you get that over the internet? It's physically impossible.

Speaker 3 (27:12):

People do it every day. You could have various opinions about what the outcome of that is. I like sitting in the room with musicians. It's one thing to email, Hey, I got this roof. What do you think about this? Or whatever. But in terms of actually getting down to the nuts and bolts and arrangements and movements, it's just very important to me to be in the room.

Speaker 2 (27:32):

Is it one of those things where the geography of the situation only allows it to happen at certain times?

Speaker 3 (27:39):

In the case of Ultimas? Yeah, I'm the only American in the band.

Speaker 2 (27:42):

That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 3 (27:43):

Obviously with this nonsense that we're going through right now with the virus, that's sort of been a cock blocker, if you will. And gosh, we could have probably two more records done at this point had we not been punched in the gut by this.

Speaker 2 (27:57):

So just out of curiosity, speaking of making records, do you have a different outlook or mental approach about the studio than you did say in the nineties just given that technology is completely different, methods are completely different. Well,

Speaker 3 (28:12):

Not really unless I'm producing, but when I'm going to do my parts, it doesn't matter to me where I am as long as it will suffice, as long as I have good people that I'm working with. I can be me in the shower or I can be me on a stage or I can be me recording in the studio. Out

Speaker 2 (28:30):

Of curiosity, why a book? I mean, it kind of makes sense with all the different things you've done in your career and the way that you think about it makes sense, but I'm just wondering why it's a big undertaking.

Speaker 3 (28:43):

It took a fair amount of time to do it the way that I wanted it done. Actually had a publisher come back who was really keen on it, and then when they read the actual transcripts, they said, well, there's not enough dirt here.

Speaker 2 (28:59):

Dirt as in talking shit

Speaker 3 (29:00):

Essentially. I'm like, that's not what I want to do. Well, if you can't put more of that in there, well, I don't think there's any of that in there, but they were disinterested and I'm like, oh, okay. Well, this is my life. This is my book. This is about me and it's going to be the way that I want it to be. So next.

Speaker 2 (29:18):

I admire that very much. There's no reason to take people down in public. Nothing good comes out of it. It's impossible to give the full context of a situation that went bad, plus it's none of anybody's fucking business.

Speaker 3 (29:31):

I wanted to have it be a cross between sort of how I view things and some life lessons that I felt like that people could have a takeaway from it. Maybe they could add a tool into their toolbox based on the trials and tribulations that I've lived that I continue to live. A number of comments came to me over the years, people coming in and telling me that somehow that my work has inspired them to overcome various situations, and now they have their own law firm or they own a chain of restaurants or there's some success that for some reason or another, someone felt obliged to tell me that I somehow inspired them, which that's the greatest gift. That's an amazing compliment, and I started thinking about that a little more. I'm like, because I feel the same way about people who have inspired me, and so it's almost, it's gone full circle when someone can tell me that the same thing that I would want to tell those that I've looked up to over the years. That's an amazing, it's not only compliment's, almost a stamp of approval that goes beyond money, that goes beyond anything tangible. It's a spiritual thing

Speaker 2 (31:02):

For me. I feel like it falls under that very hard to define life fulfillment category when you hear things like that, I do from time to time, it gives a validity to everything I've done that it's not just some narcissistic venture. It actually has an impact, a positive impact

Speaker 3 (31:24):

As humans. I think that we all appreciate things that are successful both in our own lives and in the lives of others. Accomplishment is an amazing thing. It's a reward for hard work. Sometimes it's a reward for being in the right place at the right time, but I digress. It's us living our lives and taking the good with the bad and focusing on what's actually going to be growth. And that doesn't always mean money. I mean, I've done a number of things that fulfilled in some way other than filling my bank account up, and I'm fine with that too.

Speaker 2 (32:06):

Money in and of itself doesn't have much of a meaning. I feel like money is a good gauge for measuring certain types of impact that something you've done has on the world. It's a good metric I guess, but it's not the only metric and it's not always a good metric. There are certain things that you cannot measure with that, but as far as money goes, I think that that's the best thing about it is that it's a good way to measure. We constantly want to find order in all this chaos of life and anything that we can use to help define things better is useful, and I think that money is one of those things. We can draw a very straight line between something we did and then the money in the account, or at least the money that came into the account now. It's not always super clear when it comes to helping other people or emotional impact that a work of art you created had on somebody, but then again, if they then went and if it helped them so much that they then bought a t-shirt or bought a concert ticket, that it's a good measurement I think.

Speaker 3 (33:30):

Sure. Not the only

Speaker 2 (33:31):

The, yeah,

Speaker 3 (33:32):

We can always use more. There's always more stuff to buy and then a bigger house to buy so you can quartermaster all your stuff. So I consider myself to be pretty philanthropic, but in philanthropy, it's not always about money. It's about ideas. It's about encouragement. When you give of yourself, it's not just opening up your wallet and throwing money at something. Sometimes it's picking someone up when they've fallen down. Sometimes it's talking with someone and talking them through a difficult time in their life. Sometimes it's writing a song that energizes people. It comes in a billion different forms. As long as the intent is pure, it may or may not be received that way. But I always feel good about going to sleep at night knowing that I've spent another day being able to be me and being able to do the things that I do

Speaker 2 (34:23):

Well. You can't control how something's going to be received. All you can control is how you do those things. So the book is, if I'm understanding correctly, is a way of, I guess packaging up lots of lessons that you've learned along the way that have made a huge impact on your life and maybe helping other people not have to learn those lessons the hard way

Speaker 3 (34:51):

Or they may have already learned them the hard way and we're sharing a separate but near experience.

Speaker 2 (34:58):

Which one is the hardest one for you to learn?

Speaker 3 (35:02):

Humility.

Speaker 2 (35:02):

What about it?

Speaker 3 (35:03):

Well, at least the appearance of it. I'm not a particularly empathetic person. I've had to work very, very hard to find that. Oftentimes I don't feel it, but I try to show it in the way that I'm capable of without being fake, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 2 (35:22):

How do you go about finding it if it's not natural?

Speaker 3 (35:25):

All I can do is put myself in the same situation and be like, well, I would never do that, but if I did do that, here's how I would feel about it. And then I try to internalize it enough to where I can maybe help guide someone else through that and applying the same way that I think about everything. I look at everything exactly the same, where it's coming from, and as long as I feel honorable and righteous about what I do and what I say, the actions I take, then I sleep well at night.

Speaker 2 (36:01):

How do you gauge that?

Speaker 3 (36:02):

Difficult. At times it's having a clear conscious and knowing that I haven't been a psychic vampire towards someone because I don't like it when people are that way towards me.

Speaker 2 (36:16):

It's terrible. Call them.

Speaker 3 (36:19):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (36:19):

Weakers a good one too. Did you have any mentors in your life or in music, just out of curiosity, because you've talked about people that you've looked up to, but were there any people in the business that helped you to make better decisions or who provided that kind of mentorship that you're helping with through the book or through just talking to people in person?

Speaker 3 (36:45):

I wouldn't say direct mentors. No, I didn't want that, so I never sought it out. The people that I've looked up to are not necessarily all in the music business, but again, inspiration comes in a lot of different ways. I tend to people that I would consider to be mavericks who go against conventional thinking and norms, and usually those are the people who are successful. Again, success is a lot of different ways. It's not always just money. People who have done things and they've moved mountains by the sheer power of their will and their self-determination, that is what inspires me. So it may have nothing to do with music. It's an ethic that I apply to all facets of my life.

Speaker 2 (37:30):

I think that people that can move mountains through the power of their will and work ethic is one of the greatest things that humanity has evolved into. Being able to do that and then also the idea of creating something out of nothing. When you create a song that didn't exist before or a band that didn't exist before or a book that didn't exist before, whatever it is, a business that didn't exist before. The act of creating something out of nothing that then becomes a real thing that goes into the world and affects other people, that's a pretty amazing human trait I think.

Speaker 3 (38:17):

I agree

Speaker 2 (38:17):

To pull that off. I think it often takes non-conventional thinking, not always, but often.

Speaker 3 (38:23):

So if you look at some of the mavericks of our time, Steve Jobs, college Dropout, Richard Branson, Elon Musk, different people in medicine and motivational people, musicians as well. It's a spark and that's true magic.

Speaker 2 (38:42):

I feel like with those people you mentioned, they didn't have to try to find that spark either. The reason I'm saying that is because lots of times we'll get questions that are along the lines of how do I find my motivation or my path, and then I think about people like the ones you mentioned or people that I know in my life who have done amazing things and they never had to find that they had to work their asses off. Of course.

Speaker 4 (39:09):

But

Speaker 2 (39:10):

That spark you're talking about, it's almost like I think

Speaker 3 (39:16):

We'll never know for sure. It could be genetics, it could be really good values, it could be really high iq. It could be just ultra creative or a combination of any and or all of those things

Speaker 2 (39:30):

Probably is a combination of Annie and or all those things. And always unique to the situation just there are so many people on earth and so many billions of different life circumstances, but I still think that when it comes to that spark to do something, to do something great or new, that doesn't come from other people, it has to come from you. I don't think that with Steve Jobs, he to couldn't get that spark from somebody else, just like I don't think that you could have been anyone but yourself, a person who went on to do what you did, that's who he was. It's who you are, and I think that that is who creators are. The reason I'm saying all this is because when people listening are wondering, how do I find, what tricks do you do to get that motivation in yourself, or what tricks do you do to find your path? I think that asking that of other people is asking the wrong question. You might not know yet exactly what your path is, but nobody else is going to give it to you. You have to figure it out for yourself.

Speaker 3 (40:38):

And quality time reflecting on this, yes,

Speaker 2 (40:42):

Making

Speaker 3 (40:43):

Best friends with the person in the mirror,

Speaker 2 (40:46):

That's a tough one.

Speaker 3 (40:46):

That's very tough, but at the end of the day, my best friend and my worst critic is the same person, and that's the man looking back at me in the mirror. And when you're good with that, if you're not happy, you look at the man in the mirror, why am I not happy and what adjustments do I need to make in order to overcome that? And it's not about blaming, pointing fingers in all other directions. You've got to start with yourself. Now, if there's someone in your sort of social sphere that is a drain, then well, it's just like a weed in the garden. You got to yank it out.

Speaker 2 (41:23):

When it comes to that type of scenario, which does happen, I think that one of the keys to success is surrounding yourself with the right people. Because like a plant, you'll be directly influenced by the soil you put yourself in. If you're surrounded by super negative self-limiting people, if you're around them enough just by association and proximity, you'll start to take on some of those traits. It's a very natural human thing to do. So who you surround yourself with is a very, very important decision to make. What I've noticed is when I come to one of those situations where I think something goes bad or is realized someone no longer fits this story, things are getting worse, this is bringing out sides of myself that I don't think are my best sides, or it's enabling bad traits or this project we're working on is going to be better served by us not working together, whatever the case may be, I will definitely try to be as honest as possible about what their role is and why things are not where they should be.

(42:35):

But then I'll also ask myself, well, what did I do to get myself in this situation where I allowed this to happen? Because it took two. I mean, it could have been the most unscrupulous, fucked up person I've ever met. And obviously we've all met people like that, but I still allowed them into my life and still said yes to the relationship happening. I may not have known that it was going to go that way, but I still allowed it. So were there things I could have looked at for? Was I believing bullshit when I shouldn't have been, or did I kind of know this was going to go bad, but I was hoping it wouldn't, and so I went along with it anyways, but I knew better the whole time. That's happened a lot. Or am I totally surprised by this? Am I actually a hundred percent shocked? That could happen too, but I think it's important to ask yourself those questions. Even if somebody else did something super fucked up, how did you get yourself into that situation?

Speaker 3 (43:40):

Well, then after several of those, you kind of learn to read the suns. Maybe you don't get so involved when you smell something that smells like something you've smelled before.

Speaker 4 (43:51):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (43:52):

Hopefully. Interesting, interesting conversation. I mean, we're very close on a lot of things, which is good. Good thing. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (43:58):

I was hoping that you'd be down to have an actual conversation with these podcasts. Man. I mean, I have two podcasts. They both do three or four episodes a week. This is going to be episode three 50, something for this one. And if I wasn't able to have actual conversations with people, I couldn't do this. I get so fucking bored. And if it was all just about music gear, music technique, recording gear, I just wouldn't do it.

Speaker 3 (44:33):

Yeah, this is better. I don't do email interviews. I haven't done 'em in years. Oh, let me just send you the questions and it's like, if you want to do that, just read any interview that I've done over the past 30 plus years. You're not asking anything different. You got to play tennis here. One serves one volleys and it goes back and forth and you get to places where you haven't been before. So it makes it more beneficial for both parties, I believe.

Speaker 2 (44:57):

Well, I think the traditional interview structure is outdated and sucks because of how technology has evolved. So we have YouTube, we have Wikipedia, we have every factoid you could learn about an artist available to us already. So what is the point of talking about that shit when it's online, you can find it. Not just that. If you have any respect for the people that you're talking to, you're not going to waste their time by asking them something that they've already answered 10,000 or more times. But I think also the public is not interested in typical your regular interviews. Maybe when there were no media outlets, three or four magazines only that came out once a month and that's the only way to find out anything and very few television stations, and the only time you could watch a celebrity interview was late night TV or something like that. Okay, it makes more sense. But in this day and age, I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (46:03):

I agree. And

Speaker 2 (46:03):

Those email interviews are lazy as fuck, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (46:06):

Well, yeah. I mean, why are you a writer? Why don't I just write you some soliloquy and you just print that? We just cut you out because you're just not much more than a middleman.

Speaker 2 (46:17):

Also, you're making the person who you're talking to. From my perspective, I don't want someone to resent having to talk to me or to feel like talking to me is doing a homework assignment or something like that.

Speaker 3 (46:32):

Those

Speaker 2 (46:32):

Written interviews kind of fall under the homework assignment category.

Speaker 3 (46:36):

I feel like I'm doing my job and their job. If you want to have a conversation, great. If you don't, then find someone else. It's okay. My feelings won't be heard.

Speaker 2 (46:45):

So I think podcasting is exploding. It's been exploding, but it continues to explode. And I think that once the public caught onto it once, it was not just the property of the early adopters, but once it started to go into the mainstream and lots of people who were kind of WTF about what podcasts are actually gave them a chance and realized that you're going to get high level in-depth conversations between people that you actually give a fuck about and they're not going to be restrained by censorship laws or by a 15 minute time limit or a physical space limit in a magazine, you're going to actually get to hear stuff that might actually make your life better, at least because it's interesting to listen to.

Speaker 3 (47:36):

Sure, I would agree with that.

Speaker 2 (47:37):

Yeah, so I think it's one of those things that once the public realize there's something better out there, it's just kind of gone full force with podcasts. I don't think people really even, at least in our world, I don't think people really pay attention to regular interviews too much anymore.

Speaker 3 (47:53):

When you're a record company and you've paid for product placement in a magazine, they expect to see an interview and then they're happy about it. Of course. I agree with you. I don't know that anyone else really cares. I

Speaker 2 (48:03):

Don't know if you're aware of what URM does, but we're an online school for producers, specifically metal. We also have a guitar school, and so I'm talking to thousands and thousands of people, a lot of them young who are trying to get good at this shit, and they do not read any of that stuff. It's only some of the older guys, but even they have abandoned traditional magazines and things like that,

Speaker 3 (48:33):

Which is unfortunate because there's a certain nostalgia that comes from the things that we grew up with, man. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (48:40):

Sure.

Speaker 3 (48:41):

Metal forces and Hit Parade and Ang Metal Hammer. I remember going down to the magazine store and waiting on the new issue. But again, there's better ways probably now. I mean, I still like physical stuff. There's a few magazines that I've subscribed to, not music magazines by the way. Sometimes there's something different about tangibly Holding. It's like a book. I like books. I don't own a Kindle and I'm not interested.

Speaker 2 (49:08):

I do own one and I will never go back to books for the reason that traveling with 20 books sucks as opposed to one Kindle that has thousands of them on there. But I understand what you're saying and I do think that it's one of those things that we gravitate towards what we're used to. I don't think it's a better or worse type of thing. I actually think that that's one of the dumbest things that people waste their time thinking about is judging whether or not it's better to do one or the other. Whatever works for you is what's best. Same with recording technology for instance.

Speaker 3 (49:48):

Same way with anything else. The goal is is to find what works best for you, be it recording, be it anything in life and in terms of becoming better at things, the best way to be better, obviously, besides from practicing a lot introspection, who are you and what do you want to do? And don't look at someone else. Well, I want to be like that. Well, okay, what does you being you version of that look like? And then take the necessary shift.

Speaker 2 (50:17):

Okay, so you're saying that you didn't have set goals by this year. There's going to be this amount of revenue, but I guess back to what I was saying, there had to be some sort of a vision for what you saw yourself as.

Speaker 3 (50:32):

And I'm speaking from first personnel. The only thing I ever cared about was doing what I do. I didn't really pay that much attention to what others were doing. I mean, I have obviously as a music maker, I'm also a music fan, and I always looked forward to what were other people doing, looking forward to hearing band blanks new record. Sometimes I liked it, sometimes I didn't. But I didn't use that as a gauge of sort of what am I going to do? I already knew what I was going to do. I'm just going to be me. For the artists that I'm a fan of, I want to hear them being them. I want to hear them expressing their emotions. I want to hear them pushing through things. I want them to tell me a story that's believable and that has conviction, and it may not be the best performed passage of music.

(51:23):

One of my favorite singers is Alice Cooper from a singer standpoint technique. Is he the greatest? No, but he's a wonderful storyteller and when I listen to his music, I know that he means it. He's very genuine. That's the whole kit and caboodle right there. You're not in competition with anyone else unless you're looking at something on the business side, you're only in competition with yourself, and how can you do the very best that you can by being you not trying to be someone else, not following a predetermined path. Although there are people who are very successful and all they do is just regurgitate and really plot out exactly what they're going to do, and every move is made only towards a revenue sheet. I don't live my life that way. Now, there are people who are very successful who do live their life that way and God bless 'em. That's just not who I am.

Speaker 2 (52:21):

They figured out a cheat code almost, but I mean they work very hard. It is doable, but I feel like if that's not who you are, then that's not going to work. They're being true to themselves by doing it. That method, the act of regurgitation and looking at it through the lens of a balance sheet and however it is that they look at it just like you don't have to try to be yourself. I don't think that they're trying to be that way because I've known lots of people who try to do that and fail spectacularly. The people I know who have pulled that off, they are that they are being themselves. That's the thing. It's weird to me that that's what being themselves means, but the ones I know who are successful at it, they're not faking it. It's hard to explain, but they're not faking it. I don't know Chad Kroger, but I was talking to Devin Townsend about working with him, and he was telling me that you can think what you want to think about his band, but the dude's not fucking faking it. That is his art. And it or not, that is who he is. Like Devin being such an amazing musician.

Speaker 3 (53:29):

Yeah. Yes, I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (53:31):

Tried to do that too, but he couldn't, that's not him. He can only be Devin. So it was a very interesting, the idea of those two working together because they're so far apart in what they do, and I'm not a Nickelback fan, but I think being successful at that sort of thing, it has to be who you authentically are too,

Speaker 3 (53:51):

To a degree. I hearkened back to a story. I went up to Nashville and I had a writing session with one of the guys at Sony publishing. Really good guy. I really liked him. We clicked and we had a song start to finish done in like 45 minutes, and I was talking to him about how things work there, and I was amazed to learn that it's completely different than anything that I've ever known. So most of, if you go see one of the bigger country artists, the band that he's on stage with is more often than not the band that he recorded with these record companies. They'll fly the singer in, they put them in the studio with a known group of musicians that they like. All the songs are written by these big writers who are thinking, oh, this is going to be the next hit, and everything else, and the entire thing is a work for hire. I mean, the artist, quote unquote, is not really, didn't write anything. More often than not,

Speaker 2 (54:50):

They're just performers.

Speaker 3 (54:52):

It's funny, I go into a dance club and I hear a song playing, some guy's singing about a John Deere tractor. I'm looking at the guy and I'm like, the guy probably has never even ridden a lawnmower before. They're doing something that their bosses feel is a commodity, and it's like a.to dot. They go in, okay, here's okay. You want it in this key, and that's just so foreign to me. Always strive to be yourself. That's the most important thing in any art. Learn from others. Learn techniques perhaps from others. Good things, bad things. Don't be afraid to experiment, but most importantly, don't be afraid to be yourself and you're the only one who can decide who that is, but when you went as you find it, and it takes some of us longer than others, run in that direction. Run as fast as you can in that direction.

Speaker 2 (55:46):

It makes me think back hearing you say this to being 13 and following the band, and I remember that what stuck out to me besides other stuff I've said was I actually believed what you guys were putting out there. It felt authentic. I didn't feel like you guys were faking it, and that drew me to you guys. It just felt like the real deal, and I think that the public can sniff that. Like drug dogs, they know when their artists are real. That's what people are drawn to generally, at least in our world. I think authenticity is everything. I think

Speaker 3 (56:28):

I agree. So that much more reason to redouble efforts and always internalize that, make it important to think about how am I delivering this and turning off all the noise and letting all the emotions come from deep inside, and that's going to be your best take. That's going to be your best performance. That's going to go over the best because I agree with you. People hear it.

Speaker 2 (56:52):

Yeah, they can just tell. It's weird, but they can. Well, David Vincent, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 3 (57:01):

My pleasure, and I enjoy the conversation.

Speaker 2 (57:03):

Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some of your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at M Academy and of course tag our guest as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at urm. Do ac y and use the subject line. Answer me a Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (57:43):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.