DAVID COWELL: Breaking Bands with TikTok, Old-School Artist Development, and Relentless Songwriting

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the URM Podcast. Our guest today is David Cowell, who actually you have worked with sounds like right? More than once or once. I have.

Speaker 2 (00:10):

I'm actually in the process of mixing a record for Dave right now, and if you're not familiar with Dave, you should be because he's about to become one of the who's who in Rock. Dave has had two absolutely massive hits with the band Sleep Theory, I believe last week he was number seven or something like that, or they were number seven or five on the active rock charts, I think with the song Fallout. So they're killing it. And Dave is just on the up. He's doing a lot of great records, doing a lot of records with epitaph and stuff like that, and he's a very, very passionate guy and he's got a very unique process, which I think is very refreshing compared to how a lot of people make records right now.

Speaker 1 (00:49):

Yeah, just for people watching or listening, we're recording this after having done the episode, and what I took from it is that he works a lot in the way that old school producers do, and I don't mean in a dated way. He obviously uses modern technology and his writing modern music and producing modern music, but he gets into it at a level of depth like the old school producers did that nowadays, I don't know if people just don't have the budgets for it or the interest or it still happens, but not quite as often. It's a lot more rare to find producers that go to quite those levels with the artists. So it was a really, really cool episode my first time ever talking to him or hearing about him. So I went in cold, which is fun to do sometimes, and I was, let's just say refreshed to hear his approach because I feel like that approach is how you get great music. So let's get into it a

Speaker 3 (02:06):

Hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (02:07):

David Cowell, welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 3 (02:10):

Hey, what's going on, man?

Speaker 1 (02:12):

Hanging out. Happy to have you here. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 3 (02:15):

Happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:17):

So I saw Joel's talked a lot about you, but you said something that I found interesting that you get off on helping bands break independently a hundred percent, which is, I want to talk about that. I remember when that first became a thing, the idea of it in the nineties, it was kind of a really bad idea to give artists that kind of advice. You had a few artists, there was Ani DeFranco who sold millions on her own, but that was a total outlier and it was basically impossible. And then fast forward a few years, you had Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead do it on their own. So then every artist, every unsigned artist was like, look, nine Inch Nails and Radiohead can do it, so can I. And it's like, well, they were already famous and rich and have an infrastructure they can basically afford to do on their own what a label would be doing.

Speaker 4 (03:27):

But

Speaker 1 (03:27):

Fast forward a little bit more into the streaming age. I now know as we all do, several artists who are a hundred percent independent and doing it all themselves. However, the one thing that I've noticed why I still think that this is questionable advice to give to artists, or maybe not questionable, but a double-edged sword, is because every single artist I know successful and independent are a very particular type of person. They're a person who's great at art and organized and responsible, and they're very good at setting goals, meeting goals, returning emails, keeping their shit together. And a lot of artists aren't that way, and I don't mean that that's not a value judgment, it's just

Speaker 3 (04:20):

No 100%. It's not a part of the norm. You don't get to be an incredibly daydreamy creative type person and have your shit together at the same time. It doesn't happen.

Speaker 1 (04:32):

Exactly. So giving people like that, the advice to do it on their own could be the worst advice ever because they will not be able to get things done well enough to succeed in the industry and they need the infrastructure. So

Speaker 3 (04:48):

A hundred percent, where's the line where you, let me clarify. So to your point, yes, so what I meant by that was I have now had a pretty good streak of bringing bands in and seeing something in them first because let's be real, not everybody's going to be able to do this. This isn't something where anybody that has a band and write songs can get out there and do it to that level. Now sure, they can have some success and if they push and release tons of content maybe, but what I was getting at is I've got a pretty good streak now of seeing something in a band, bringing them in, doing a ton of development, really digging into what their niche is going to be stylistically and putting a bunch of stuff together and then helping them release that stuff, get it out there to a point where they're attracting the team, the people that will take the ball from there and help them run it, because no, they're not typically going to be able to do it all themselves.

(05:44):

It's going to require a team, but it's different when you're throwing everything at the wall and submitting to this manager to that label and everything's sitting in the unsolicited pile and nothing ever happens versus doing everything on your own, having people behind you that can kind of help guide like myself or anybody else that's sort of seen what can work, no one size fits all, but just hitting the ground running, working super hard and then putting so much out there that you have a better chance of having that viral moment, which let's be real, in 2024, that's 90% of what's working for independent artists is having a viral moment, whether it's on TikTok or Instagram or what have you, and putting so much out there so that your odds are much greater at having that moment. Because I can tell you firsthand when you do that and you hit that magic video, that overnight gets tens to hundreds of thousands of views, and then the ball starts really rolling with the algorithm.

(06:44):

These heavy hitters are going to see it, it's going to blip on their radar, and then they'll start approaching you because they want to get in on it. This is what everybody's trying to do right now. So what I meant by that is I really get off on taking bands that have nothing going on, but I can see the potential in them that there's something there that the masses I feel like would really get into. And then coaching them along from the content, obviously the songs first and foremost, getting in and writing with them, kind of helping develop everything. And then from there they've got a product that they can really push out there in a much bigger way and making all the dumb 15 second videos that they can and getting it out there. And that seems to be something that's really working right now.

(07:24):

So I've really been enjoying that part rather than where I was two years ago, three years ago, where I was just running my studio and bringing everybody in weekly and turning out content saying, okay, best of luck, hope it goes well. And then focusing on the next thing. I've been kind of pulling back and being a little bit more selective and what I'm pouring my time into right now and just making sure it's something I feel like can do that and run the distance. And I think sleep theory is a massive example of that because oh for sure, this time two years ago, they had nothing going on, nothing on socials. They had, I think maybe at best a couple hundred followers on things, but those guys really got serious and we cracked down and made sure that we were focusing on the right material.

(08:13):

And then sure enough, the top of 23, they put together a 15 second clip on TikTok that went absolutely bananas. I think within the first week or so it had half a million views, and they actually ended up getting approached by the people that ended up placing them on Octane and SiriusXM and Pandora and all that, and their manager found them that way instead of vice versa. So it was ridiculous how fast everything sort of started to happen after that. And we've literally as a team had to catch up to keep up and yeah, it's crazy, but there's definitely a rush associated with that. So I'm just trying to chase that with as many artists as I can right now.

Speaker 1 (08:57):

So two questions. One is how do you vet artists that you see something in?

Speaker 3 (09:04):

Because

Speaker 1 (09:04):

Seeing something in an artist, I feel vague. Well, it's not enough, right? It's like people say love's not enough to make a marriage last. Something isn't enough. There has to be the right people who will do the stuff they need to do in order to get there. And then I guess my second question is what are some of the specific things you did with Sleep Theory?

Speaker 3 (09:27):

So as far as the vetting process, so with sleep theory, I went to go see Cullen, the Vocalists. He was in a band before that and the guitar player I'd worked with years ago, and they had asked me to come see him live. So I went and checked him out and to be honest with you, nothing against anybody else that was in that band, but Cullen was the only part of what I saw on that stage that I felt like was even close to the level that things would need to be. So I pulled them all outside after they got done and I said, look, I want to try something. Let's all come in. Let me write a song with you guys. I'll spec it out. I'll do it for free upfront. Obviously you guys will pay nothing, but I got to write it with you because I see something I don't think you guys see yet in you. And the band needs to catch up with what the vocalist is doing because they were super hardcore, like indie metal, and he was much more polished in a pop thing, and that could maybe in some way work, but they were way too opposite ends of the spectrum for that to come together. So I saw something I thought might bridge the gap, and it's honestly what I heard in my head is what Sleep Theory is doing now. But talked to the band, they weren't super into it, so it took a lot of back and forth.

Speaker 1 (10:42):

They didn't like the work you guys did together.

Speaker 3 (10:46):

Well, we didn't even get a chance to start with them because they just were super combative over the process and the idea that I had to help write it, they thought that their stuff was on the level, and I just kept trying to give them examples of things that were closer to what I was seeing. And again, nobody was terrible about it was just they disagreed with the concept and they wanted to be more showcased as players and have virtuoso moments. And I said, you've got a vocalist that just needs to be showcased in what you're doing, and it just didn't work. And he ended up actually leaving that band throughout that process, and he just came back to me and said, Hey, I'm ready to do what you saw. Let's just start it. So he and I started this together, just he and I, we got together and there was another writer, an old friend of mine that we pulled in to work on the first couple of songs just while we were sort of feeling it out and trying to, because I mean, let's be real.

(11:38):

There's so much artistically and so much ground to cover, it's really hard to look at a universe worth of stuff and pluck one moment out. So we were kind of exploring a bunch of stuff to see what worked and their song that blew up another way, I think was the fourth or fifth, maybe sixth song that we ended up writing together before we hit that sound that we were like, okay, this is the thing. So it wasn't like an instant process. It took a lot of work and a lot of digging to kind of refine what we were trying to do. But to go back to your original question, it was the fact that I saw in him, I just kind had my, and again, the daydreaming thing, I had the imagination goggles on and I pictured him on a giant stage, maybe a different band, maybe not, but I knew that he himself had a quality and what that quality is that I wish I could pinpoint it and tell everybody so they could try to bottle it and sell it.

Speaker 1 (12:27):

That X factor,

Speaker 3 (12:29):

It was a thing that was just undeniable. And it's funny because while he's learned a lot about the business in this last year and he's grown a ton as an artist, and there's so much that's happened, it's like everything has risen to meet that thing that he always had from the beginning. So that's kind of X factor thing I look for.

Speaker 1 (12:48):

Okay, so you get to Song six after experimenting a bunch and what you start releasing singles or

Speaker 3 (12:59):

Yeah, so that was the thing is so

Speaker 1 (13:02):

Did you release the other five and they didn't? Okay, so they just are in the trash bin of history,

Speaker 3 (13:10):

Not necessarily. What's funny is the EP that's come out that's done really well, some of those songs, they just kind of sat on the side and waited, but that one song, another way we all kind of agreed like this is the one that's got to come out. In fact, they did a weird attempt at a release in May of 22 where they put it out because they were about to play a show. It was either Day Seeker or Attack, attack, I can't remember, but one of those two bands was coming in town and they got on the bill, so they wanted to put something out to promote with, and the preparation for the release wasn't solid. They didn't do a whole lot to promote it beforehand. So it just came out, and I wouldn't say it flopped. I mean it got a couple thousand streams within a few weeks, but everyone agreed like this wasn't the moment that we were holding out for years for, so they pulled it off with Spotify and everything and just kind of waited and I understood and respected that decision.

(14:06):

I said, but if it's going to happen, my vote is we got to figure out how to promote it. I can't tell you what that's going to be yet, but I got to give Cullen credit. He started reaching out and asking a ton of people like, Hey, what's the best way to promote and this, that and the other? And he started through suggestions of friends and then stuff he figured out. He realized that TikTok was really going to be a huge thing at that time. I mean, it's still pretty much king, but so many bands were breaking through TikTok at that point. So their bass player, Paolo, he's pretty good with the camera, and they got into the live room of the studio here and put together a quick clip of just the end of the second verse, end of the course of the song.

(14:51):

And they told me they were doing it. I had some health things going on. I was kind of MIA for a little while, but Colin checked in. He was like, Hey, bro, just letting you know man, we got something to put together. We're going to put it out. Just see what happens. Well, all I know is I wake up that next morning to a thousand text messages where everyone's freaking out because that clip went viral overnight and they went from a handful of followers to, I think it was over 12, or it could have been even over 20,000 followers, just that 24 hour cycle of that video and all of those other songs that they tried to put out or that they had talked about putting out, they held back because there was something about that one song. And so all of those other songs, and then a couple that we wrote afterwards, after they went through the process of getting their deal, epitaph signed them and said, Hey, we want to put out a six song ep.

(15:43):

So we started looking at the entire body of work that was recorded. Nothing's been scrapped. I will say that even down to the first idea, we've revamped it a few different ways, and if it's not saying too much, we feel like in fact the label's excited about it. So that's probably going to be part of the full length that comes out soon, but we're doing a lot of vetting at that point, like, Hey, is that song going to be strong enough? They're trying to put out an EP to get everybody to figure out who they are. So a few of those songs ended up on the EP and the ones that didn't, they've been reworked just by rewriting intros and things like that, like minor tweaks, and the rest of that stuff will be featured on the full length. So there's been nothing they've worked on that's gotten scrapped. So it's been pretty awesome.

Speaker 1 (16:29):

So just one video? Yeah, the one video did it just so happens. So they didn't post 90 videos?

Speaker 3 (16:38):

No.

Speaker 1 (16:38):

Yeah, so one video, just one viral.

Speaker 3 (16:41):

Here's the thing though, is that first video did go the distance and open a ton of doors, but then they put out 50 after that to try to recreate that moment. It wasn't like, so I don't want anyone watching this to get the wrong idea that once you have that viral moment, it's just a gravy train from there and you can sit back and relax and just put stuff out at your leisure. No, you have to work extremely hard and continue to pump out tons of content to keep that rolling. Now, let's be fair, once you've done this for a while and you've built up your six figure follower account, that makes it a little easier to wear. You're more likely to break a five figure view on most of the videos you put out. But there's even still some that they'll put out that'll only do four or 500 in the first few days and then they'll pull it down and put something else out.

(17:30):

So yeah, it definitely is something you never get to just kind of relax and say, well, it's going to happen no matter what, but it's all about, again, the quality of the content you're putting out. Are you continuing to come up with fresh ideas that you think like, Hey, this is something we haven't tried yet, that it'll either be funny or there's an emotional attachment to this or whatever it is. Just keep getting creative and trying to put out new things because again, as much as we all wish that it was still just down to making great music, you've got to be content creators too and to keep up. It sucks, but that's part of it. But yeah, that's what they've done. It was one video and it literally launched the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (18:13):

What kind of pace do they keep now with videos or have they as far as how often frequency of putting it up?

Speaker 3 (18:23):

I see videos from those guys on most daily. They're making stuff individually that they're linking into the band account and then they're releasing tons of stuff. I would say that those guys are probably cranking out because sometimes they'll use an old clip that performed well and just recaption it because that's the thing and it works. But I would say it's weekly that I'm seeing new stuff I've never seen before. Those guys are constantly at it.

Speaker 1 (18:49):

Makes sense. And with other artists you work with, how often do you come across that level of commitment?

Speaker 3 (19:01):

I'll be honest, there are a couple of artists that I can picture in my head right now. I don't want to throw it under the bus because this isn't a negative thing at all. But there are artists that I had a lot of faith in that I believe their music, I still believe their music and them as artists, I think that there was everything needed to do it. They just had a really hard time with the concept that they got to be tiktoks and put out all the content and work social media, most of them don't even actively use their own social media accounts. And so they had just this fundamental problem with the concept that it's not just about the art they're making. They have to do that and they didn't want to do it, and so it caused them while they were pretty hot and heavy for a while, it caused them to just step back and say, Hey man, I think I'm just going to do this on the side.

(19:50):

It almost intimidated them out of the process, which sucks, but it's not often people don't understand. It's almost a full-time gig in itself outside of just creating the music and trying to book shows and connect with people. You've got to dedicate time. It has to be intentional. You can't just go through the week and, oh yeah, I'll post a video here, or no, it's like you got to almost be on a schedule with it and everybody in the band agree, Hey, this day of the week we're going to get together and we're going to make three new videos and here's an idea I have, what do y'all have? And again, it's very involved.

(20:30):

I don't envy that responsibility because again, for me, I'm super just lost in the creative space that is even when I was an artist, I'll be honest, I don't think I could have made it when I was a kid if that was a thing that was required because I would've been one of the people that was screw that. I just want to write another song, props to everybody that does that and makes it a priority because I know it's a pain in the ass, but it is so useful to get people that would never have found a way to connect with you, to connect with you because I mean, terrestrial radio, while it's still strong in some cities, like a lot of country, a lot of cities around the country, you don't even have rock stations anymore. Like Memphis we're literally advertised as the birthplace of rock and roll. We don't have a rock station, not an active rock station.

Speaker 1 (21:17):

I don't know anyone that looks us at the radio, to be honest.

Speaker 3 (21:20):

The internet people can be mad about this idea, but it's massive and has been for a long time now to find new ways to break. I mean, when Facebook was all, there was 10, maybe 15 years ago, that was a huge way for bands to market themselves and get out there. And then Instagram took over again, same thing, keep your content fresh. Now we've got TikTok. Of course, YouTube's always been there and I feel like YouTube now is good to support the other platforms. If people found you somewhere, but they're having a hard time scrolling and finding you again, if they can remember your name, they can just go right over to YouTube and like, boom. Most of what they saw is going to pop up if you're using it. But yeah, I think the internet and creating all of this content as much of a pain in the ass as it can be, it's largely going to be the main way that you're going to find your audience. So you can't be mad at it. You got to embrace it. So it definitely works.

Speaker 1 (22:20):

So you just said that you personally don't like that aspect of it and so happy being on the music creation side of things.

Speaker 3 (22:35):

I think if I had to do it, obviously I'd figure it out, but if I'm being completely transparent, that doesn't speak to me. I am not the person that wakes up every day. I want to make 10 videos today and do what's going

Speaker 1 (22:46):

Know. I think it's good to be honest about that man, because spoken to musicians who have real negative reactions to the idea of content saying things that I don't want to be some fucking influencer. It's like, okay, I mean, I understand. I really do, but you live in this time period. It is what it is.

Speaker 3 (23:09):

Got to do it.

(23:11):

It's like flyering used to be for us, when I was coming up playing in bands, we'd go to a Kinko's and take the show flyer and print up 1500 copies of that flyer and go hit up every parking lot in town and go find out where the big shows were happening and put it on every car and put little two. Of course I'm dating myself, but put two MP threes on a cd, a burn cd, and stick that in the visor of everything and put your MySpace and all the information how to find you. And it's like you now can do all of that almost arguably, almost just as effectively promoting yourself online. And if anything, reach much more people because you're not limited to your area code. You can,

Speaker 1 (23:52):

I did 25,000 of those back in the day

Speaker 2 (23:55):

With the burn CDs in the computer lab at my college, and we would just occupy the whole room and then go to Oz Fest and hand out 2000 CDs and people are playing them in the car and they're like, and they just chalk it and you pick it up and you give it to the next person, right?

Speaker 1 (24:11):

Yeah. I would always check the parking lot and get them back. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (24:16):

There you go.

Speaker 1 (24:16):

But I mean, look back in the day you did stuff like that or you would have to tour independently for a long time. There were brutal things. There's always been brutal things you have to do or have had to do in order to get the art out there. So the method change, but the mediums change, but the fact that you have to do some intense stuff is the same, and it's a lot less intense now than it used to be. I mean, let's be real. Making content is a lot of work and it's tiring, but it is not the same level of tiring or dangerous or expensive as touring independently for two years.

Speaker 4 (25:06):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (25:07):

Yeah, that's a different story. It's true. So that said, what part of the process is your favorite part of the process?

Speaker 3 (25:18):

Man, songwriting. No matter what, let's be real. You take away all of social media goes down right now. There's no more TikTok, there's no more Insta, there's no more any of this stuff. Whatever new thing shows up in his king, whatever it is, nothing is going to matter more than the songwriting. I would even argue that recording and mixing and mastering and all of that stuff, it is crucial. But if the song sucks, who gives a shit? You can have sonically the most amazing kick and snare and guitar and vocal chain and everything, and it can be mastered of perfection by Ted Jensen. And it's like if the song sucks, who gives a shit? I think that at the end of the day, you arguably could sit four players and a great vocalist in a room and just put one even, okay, Mike, even a hot 57 right in the middle of all of them through a basic budget pre and if the song is kick ass and the performance is kick ass, people are going to respond to that, and that is going to be everything.

(26:20):

My whole thing is I just remember being a kid and listening to, I mean, take your pick millions of just incredible songwriters and artists and real creators. And it didn't matter if it was made in the sixties or if it was made in the nineties when I was growing up, I responded to that real thing. And that thing is people have this weird misconception that popular music doesn't have heart and soul, and I think that's bullshit. I think there is a lot of it that is a little bit more plastic and more bubblegum in the way that it's created. But it's funny, there are tons of people that live and die and the metal realm that have gotten on my stuff in, I love metal too. I love everything, but I'll make these posts kind of defending some of what's awesome to me in pop, and these guys will come on and talk about how easy it is, and I'll always challenge 'em and say, all right, hotshot, write me a pop song if it's so easy, write me an undeniable pop hit and they'll take me five minutes and I don't hear from him again, and then I'll look him up.

(27:24):

I'll say,

Speaker 1 (27:24):

Really, people still think that

Speaker 3 (27:27):

It's a thing. It's still a thing, but it's just as much an art to me. I've just always had such a thing that hit my brain when I would hear Amazing Hook that the melody was perfect and the harmonies were perfectly laid out, and the chord progression sit just right underneath everything and you have your peaks and valleys, and it's not all just one dynamic all the way through. And it's like all of the stuff that anybody in any genre has the ability to play around with. That's the process that I'm the most in love with. It's funny, this record, I just wrapped up tracking for the Iris plan. There's a song that I helped write that literally my first alarm goes off to wake up and get myself together ahead of the studio. And of course, most people that do what I do, I hit snooze the fuck out of that button and went back to sleep for a second.

(28:18):

And in that space consciously between being asleep and awake, it's bizarre as hell I know. But I kind of went back into a dream state, and in that dream, I was in the studio standing over piano with Brian, the vocalist standing right next to me and we're working out an idea and I could see and hear the chord progression on the piano, and the melody was hummed out, and I grabbed my phone and it's funny as hell, Joel, I'll send you this clip in a minute. This song, I literally grabbed my phone and I have sleep apnea, so I've got my sleep AP machine still going, and I'm barely mumbling this melody that's still stuck in my head. And to me now, it's arguably one of the coolest songs on that record. A lot of people that have gotten to hear it already, they say it's their favorite.

(29:02):

That's the thing is a song can come to you that way, or you can literally be stuck in traffic and have a chord progression of another song like running in your head, and then you hear a new melody on top of it that you wish they would've used. And all of a sudden you go, Hey, there's something there. And it doesn't matter how you come up with it, but I think that as long as you're attaching something real and genuine behind that dude, people are going to respond to that. So that's my thing. I love taking artists in that have never gone that deep into the songwriting process before they've set around and they've taken the first chord progression that they came up with and the first melody and the first lyrical idea. And sometimes if you get people to be super honest, there are entire songs where people didn't even really think about what it is they were saying. They were like, well, that just kind of sounds catchy.

Speaker 1 (29:44):

I've noticed that what thing a lot of people do is their songs, what you're hearing, what gets released will be what happened chronologically in the session. So the first thing they wrote is the first part of the song. The second thing they wrote is the second part of the song and so on and so forth. They never thought about cutting apart or Oh man, reworking parts or I hear a lot of chronological writing, which I don't know about you, but for me, a lot of times when writing, it's not until you're on your third idea that the light bulb comes on and then everything that happened before that is just garbage compared to what comes after that. So I think, and I know several writers who do that where

Speaker 4 (30:37):

They'll

Speaker 1 (30:37):

Start writing because you've got to start writing. The only way to write is to start writing, but they're fully prepared to basically trash the first few ideas or

Speaker 3 (30:50):

Everything. That's a huge part of it for me man. And artists that work with me for the first time that have not done that. They either view it as unnecessary or as just being way, way too much. But why

Speaker 1 (31:03):

Would you do that? I wrote

Speaker 3 (31:04):

It, dude. Yeah, it's the refinement process going over and over again three or four different times. Sometimes there are, like I said, with this sleep theory record, the first song that we set down to write as a team, we literally just went through, I think it's either the fourth or fifth iteration of that song. And it's funny, since they started playing shows, they got stuck in a weird situation where they had 30 minutes of material and started blowing up so fast they started getting headlining gigs that they had to fill up an hour space for. So it's like, are we going to do a bunch of covers or are we going to try to figure out how to take some of these other songs and 'em make sense? So they've actually played three different versions of the song Live since they started in

Speaker 1 (31:47):

The same set.

Speaker 3 (31:48):

Say again in the same set. Oh,

Speaker 1 (31:51):

No, no, no, no, no, no. That would be because that would be awesome.

Speaker 3 (31:54):

Other than doing a rush job on getting a single, we had written last summer recorded so that they can get it ready to release, we have not been together writing anything this year because first of the year they go out on the 70 day tour with Beartooth, and then immediately off of that they come home, we record that single and they jump right back out with wage more, nothing more, and they've been out the whole time. And then radio festivals and stuff. So now the label and the booking agents and their whole team is saying, record time, we got to get this finished. We got really close and we got a few more songs to write. But anyways, I still have to say we spent most of the time yesterday, literally going over a couple of the songs that we're thinking of trying to release next ahead of the record, just literally picking pieces from one section and dragging 'em over and seeing how they fit over here.

(32:42):

Is it more interesting to take this thing that goes on for eight measures and cut it down to four, cut it down to two, and then add some new production under it and literally grab it surgically, cut it out, and transplant it over to the beginning instead of over year. And those guys all have really cool instincts when it comes to that stuff. Like calling the vocalist will say, here, let's try this thing over here. And nobody in the room's thinking it. And so it's like everyone working collaboratively to that. But again, just moving stuff around to see what's the most interesting version of it. And then you don't stop till everyone in the room is high as hell off of it going like, yeah, that's the thing. I did not stop grooving start to finish at all.

Speaker 1 (33:18):

We did a course with a Howard Benson last year. We have this series of courses called How It's Done, where it's start to finish on a song from pre-pro through to mastering. And we been to do this one with Howard Benson and In Flames while they were working on the last record they were working on.

Speaker 4 (33:42):

Sure.

Speaker 1 (33:43):

And so the song, they actually wrote the song the night before we showed up. They wrote the song specifically for the course. No shit. Yeah, it was cool. And it was in the old school Inflamed Style. And so basically we watched the song go from pre-pro all the way to done. Now, what was really interesting is that at the very end, once the mix is almost final, Howard was fucking with it and he took the ending of the song. He was just like, this ending is great. And just basically copy pasted was just an outro earlier and made it the hook and the chorus. And that changed right there after the song was done, basically this idea that nobody else had made the song, it's the first single they put out from that album and their fans fucking love it. It's a song called State of Slow Decay and the big epic, if anyone goes and listens to it, that big epic sing-along part that happens two minutes in that is a metal chorus.

Speaker 4 (34:59):

That

Speaker 1 (34:59):

Was the outro. That was not an important part of the song, and he recognized it and did it at the end there at the end after it was already finished. And so I guess the moral of the story is to always be willing to cut stuff up and experiment and it's not finished until it's actually finished.

Speaker 3 (35:20):

That's right. And I need to go back and watch that, by the way, because I'm a massive Howard Benson fan and Mike Plotnik off is probably one of my favorite engineers doing it. And yeah, I need to go back and watch that. That just sounds awesome. But dude, it's so important. You can't ever get complacent in the process enough to stop staying sensitive to that moment where that spidey sense goes off and goes like, no, this isn't done yet. This thing happened in here. This is big, this thing. Yeah, a hundred percent. To me,

Speaker 1 (35:52):

It's the most important thing. It's

Speaker 3 (35:53):

The difference in good and great.

Speaker 1 (35:55):

Yeah, the song was sick. It was a sick metal song before that, and the tones are sick. It's all sick. But that change right there is, it is the most important thing that happened. One copy paste, oh

Speaker 3 (36:11):

Man, it's even going further than that. I got halfway through the process on this Aous Plan record this year, and I kind of had a night where Brian and I, the vocalist wrapped up a little earlier and I got home, had dinner with my family, had a really good night with everybody. Of course, everyone passes out and I'm still a night owl pacing the floors of the house listening to everything we did. And I kind of went back from the beginning of everything that we had come up with so far and just wanted to check in with myself and make sure that I was fully confident in everything. And there were two songs, one of which keep in mind we're done tracking these, everything's been recorded mixed or not mixed. Everything's been recorded and edited and is ready for mixing. And I am listening and I realize, dude, there's one song.

(37:03):

It's too slow. I'm into it, it's cool, but it feels like it's dragging and it needs more energy. And the vocal delivery in the chorus, he did a great job singing it, but I feel like if he was up even a whole step, it would go from a big range to a huge range of his vocal ability. And so I called him and I was just like, Hey man, is it going to piss you off if we start over? And he was like, what do you mean? And I said, well, talking about this song in particular, I said,

Speaker 1 (37:31):

Scratch the whole record. The whole

Speaker 3 (37:32):

Record's done. Throw it in the fire. But no, I said, it's going to piss you off if we start over. He goes, well, what do you mean? I said, well, very little of this except for maybe the couple of midi tracks programming and stuff, because that stuff, obviously I can up the key in that and speed it up and that's fine. But all the drum stuff, all the guitar stuff, all the vocal stuff, everything else is going to have to be completely rerecorded. And he's just

Speaker 1 (37:57):

Like, what amount of BPM shift are we talking about that we

Speaker 3 (38:01):

Ended up going a whole 10 beats per minute faster?

Speaker 1 (38:03):

You can't can't that There's

Speaker 3 (38:05):

No stretching that you're going to get away with. It's going to tell on you quickly if you try to pull that shit.

Speaker 1 (38:09):

Yeah, I feel like if it's like one or two BPM speed up, maybe. Yeah, no, no, no way.

Speaker 3 (38:19):

10 is a different neighborhood completely. So I love Brian. He's been one of my favorite people to collaborate with and just throw the kitchen sink at an idea. And if it has to have five versions of it, he gives a shit. He's there with me. He doesn't get fatigued with the process where it's like, nah, I thought we were done none of that shit. It's like, yeah, dude, whatever. Let's fucking get it. And so we had planned on only working until mid-March on this record at the beginning when we were scheduling everything out, and we didn't finish it up until May because dude, it matters. You have to give a shit. I would much rather go through the process of moving things around in my schedule and rescheduling things and telling other people that're ready to come in like, Hey man, I need you to give me a little bit more time.

(39:05):

We got to go through it. I'll go through that shit anytime if it's what's required to make sure that I don't skimp this process at all with anybody because dude, again, in 15 years, I'm not going to give a fuck about how much I got paid to do something. I'm not going to give a fuck about how long it took. I'm not going to care about any, my kid had a game and I've got to do this. That stuff matters in the moment a hundred percent. But 10 years, 15 years from now, the only thing that's going to matter for me is how do I feel when I hit play on that track? Am I going to be able to say yes, I can sign off knowing I put 120% of myself into that and gave it everything it needed or it was good enough, so we said, fuck it, we're not going to worry about it. I refuse to do that, especially at this point. I might have when I was younger, had moments that still haunt me where good had to be good enough instead of worrying about great. And it's like instead of it being right, it had to be right now. And it's like, I don't play that fucking game anymore, dude. I need it to be perfect. So no,

Speaker 2 (40:04):

That's something I want to highlight. Dave, having worked with you on this Icarus record, I mix for a lot of producers, and I don't want to say other producers aren't putting their all into anything because they, these guys are all very passionate at what they do, but I see a lot of a few days to do a song where you're the kind of person who does it. Old school, you sit down with one artist and you go all in for months and I mean months. And it doesn't matter if they're huge or somebody just starting out, and that is just something that you don't see people do anymore. And it's really refreshing, and I really admire it a lot because what impressed me when I met you a few weeks ago and you came up to Wisconsin, you flew up to Wisconsin to kick off mixing a record, which is not something, usually I have to fly to la,

Speaker 4 (40:52):

But

Speaker 2 (40:53):

What blew me away was when I hit play and I listened to 12 songs, I turned around and what did I say to you? I can't believe you actually made a record. I didn't just listen to 12 singles or 12 attempts to write an octane hit. I literally heard an entire album and it was crafted that way where I didn't have to sit down as a mixer and be like, okay, song seven, ooh, it's getting a little boring. So what can I do sonically to make it stand out a little bit? Maybe I can tweak the mix. And even though I am still attempting to do that, that's something I really admire in your workflow is the fact that you actually go all in and you're not just saying it, you actually do it.

Speaker 3 (41:31):

Well, to that point, just to brag on you a little bit too in this process is like, I know you mean that because getting these mixes back, I love the fact that with very few exceptions, there's no drum mix that feels like the exact same process for everything. You listened instinctively and you told me you were going to do this. And I was thinking, admittedly, I was thinking like, sure, he means, well, but I've heard this before and whatever. It's going to be the same sample with the same Shane and the same, no dude, everything was tailored to the song. And again, somebody that gives a shit about the song as much as I do, like anybody, this is why I don't care what the hell I'm doing. I'm going to be working with you as much as possible until I'm done doing this because dude, you backed it up.

(42:18):

When I can listen to every track on this record and even down to differences in the way the snare is processed and it's all tailored to the song. And dude, that's huge. Again, it's all a bunch of micro moves coming together at the end for the listener and anything that can separate one song from another while it's still feeling cohesive, that's the magic trick. If you can find a way to give everything its own identity and still make it a cohesive body of work, then you fucking want. That is why all these records that we all grew up going, that's more than just a flash in the pan. That's something I'm going to be a 65-year-old dude still listening to that shit. Those are all the little things that come together. So I appreciate you saying that. It is very important to me. It doesn't matter if a band has millions of streams already or if they've got 15 monthly listeners, but I see that they could be huge.

(43:12):

I'm going to give them that same intent because that's how it starts. Dude, another thing I've noticed is holy shit, what can happen when somebody that's been disregarded and kicked around and told You're nothing, this is a hobby. You don't quit your day job. And somebody comes along that says, no, dude, fuck that. You could be massive. You have a great voice, you've got great instincts, whatever. And then they get to come into a situation where they're treated that way, they're prioritized that way, and then they get to go through the process the same way that then all of a sudden this, it's not cockiness, but this legitimate confidence finally overshadows the insecurities and stuff, and then they start operating on that level. That might be my favorite part of everything that I've done these last couple of years. So that's, man, it's so huge.

(44:01):

And that starts to translate because when somebody stops being bashful, you can tell, and I know this is weird to get this psychological behind content, but you can tell how much confidence a person has in themselves by the content that they create. Whatever it is, dude, tell your story. People have lived it. They're going to connect with it. And dude, something that you're worried might be a throwaway song could be like somebody down the street's anthem for the next three years. You just don't know, but you've got to be genuine. You can't just phone it in because the moment you do that, man, people like me, I'm very sensitive to that. They're a band and I'm not going say band's names, but there are bands that I just won't listen to because I don't believe them at all. Everything just feels very disingenuous. I feel like they're just there for clout to them.

(44:47):

It's like, I'm going to play band. I'm going to play music industry today because I'm bored. It's not like I'm an artist that has shit to say, and I can listen to something within 10 to 15 seconds and know whether the people mean it or not. And again, I have to hold everything to that standard. If it's going to make me stop at 2:00 AM while I'm scrolling and go like, damn, this is my new favorite band, then yeah, it's ready. But it has to hit that marker and you're done. So that's it for me, man.

Speaker 1 (45:19):

The thing I've noticed about what you're saying is the first time I worked with a real producer after recording myself, the most important thing I learned was confidence in my playing. And they were able to bring that out of me. And when they brought that out of me, my level of playing just, it wasn't even subtle, it just jumped up drastically, man. It jumped up drastically to the point where I internalized that. And now if I'm recording myself, that's not my normal state of operation, but I can do this mental process where I'll put myself back in that mental state where you just don't give a fuck, and then the playing just gets way, way better. But

Speaker 4 (46:14):

I've noticed

Speaker 1 (46:15):

That the best producers are able to get that out of people in a way that, I mean, we all know a few freaks who just operate there already. Some artists are just wired in a way that they are at full tilt all the time, but most aren't. And so a great producer, one of the most important parts of their job, I think, is to find the right way to get somebody operating where they should be operating.

Speaker 3 (46:49):

Yeah. Well, because let's be honest, man, I knew that. So a backstory on me and where I got my start with everything. So I was, like I said, I was a kid. I grew up in a pretty broke family. I was the youngest of a bunch of siblings and we didn't have much, but man, we had some instruments laying around that house. Both of my parents were into music and we were a musical family. And so for me, playing piano and playing drums and playing bass and guitar and all these things were as normal processes about growing up as learning how to walk and talk because it was around and it's what the people that were close to me did. So I kind of grew up learning to speak music like a language, and all I ever gave a shit about was music. My buddy Dominic, he grew up with me across the street, and still to this day, if he comes back into town and we go out for his birthday and stuff, he tells all of his buddies, we were all out throwing baseball and playing big wheels.

(47:41):

And he was inside trying to learn a pentatonic skill. And his guitar, he was a nerd. And I'll wear that badge with a ton of ride because it's always been super important to me. But I had these ideas, even as a kid, I always was trying to write, my dad was a songwriter, and he'd go to the studio and he'd come in at one in the morning and after I got yelled at for being awake, I'd want to listen to what he did. And I got so into that process. Like this is my dad, the dude that I see every day, but I'm listening back to this tape, and he sounds like the people on the radio. And that's so like, ah, this just crazy magic trick that just happened where he went and it's like, these wizards are just Zack, that button, and it's like larger than life.

(48:23):

And so I got obsessed with that. I didn't have a four track or anything like that. I had two busted ass tape decks that you could record onto tape with, and one was my brothers and one was my sisters. And so I would take two tapes, I would take this tape recorder, put it in, set it next to me, and I would tap out on my little cassio keyboard, a drum part, and then I would turn that really fucking loud and put the other tape deck right next to it and hit play, and then record my guitar part while that drum track is playing off of that tape, getting recorded to tape B, and then playing that back and adding keyboards on top of it. So going back, and dude, by the time it was done, it was a hissy, noisy, gross, fucked up sounding thing.

(49:04):

But you know what? I could hear my idea all coming back at me. And I started recording that way. And then when I was old enough, I'd start going and checking out what my dad was doing. And then the church that I grew up in, they actually put in a recording studio. And that was when things got really cool for me. I know that pro tools was already a thing by this point, but at the church studio there was the 56 channel Mackey recording board going to a wall of eight app machines, and you had to have the performance, right? Because what came in, that's what you got. You know what I mean? And so I would watch these guys and it blew my mind because there were two guys, that guy Vince I was telling you about that went to Berkeley that said, I look like a puppet.

(49:46):

And then a friend, Tom Browning, great engineers, both of 'em, they knew what they were doing and had really good ears. And so I'd sit in there just obsessed with the process, and I'd hear the drummer would play, and to me it sounded perfect. It sounded fine, it sounded cool. And they're coming back like, Hey, man, that turnaround going into that last chorus, you're rushing straight through all of it. And then I'd watch them get super super OCD about that part of the process of getting the performances like dead on because that's what you had to work with. And later on, Tom got a rig at his house where he could take the ADAT tapes and then convert everything down digitally to put it into, I think he had cool Edit Pro or Digital Performer or something like that, a really early version of some of that.

(50:32):

And dude, that was really a game changer for me as a kid watching the waveforms populate on the screen. And then now he was able to go through to the hi hat track by itself and screw with it a little bit. And I'm like, whoa, this is Voodoo, man. This is magic. You're doing some kandal shit over here. What's going on? It was probably around 2002 that my band was discovered by Paul Ebersold, who produced Three Doors Down and Sister Hazel and Skillets, first and fourth record. And he was about as big production wise as you got in Memphis at the time. He worked out of Arden and him and Skid Mills opened up their own spot as well, which Skids done a bunch of huge stuff too. And I was 17 years old, we were playing in a parking lot somewhere, and he found us and was like, Hey, this is pretty cool.

(51:23):

Give them my number. I didn't know who this guy was. And the guy at the record store is like, dude, you're an idiot. And goes and grabs three or four CDs and is like, check it out, all produced by Paul Ol. And we're like, shit, that's cool. So he signs us to a production developmental deal, which I think has a lot to do with why I have the approach that I do with trying to discover people and bring 'em up, what somebody did for me as a kid. And it was huge. And getting to watch Skid. So Paul produced it, but Skid engineered Everything. And it's like one of the first hybrid studios I'd ever seen where you've got tape over here if you want it, but you can record straight to Pro Tools. And anyways, I'm watching Skid Do even more ridiculous, crazy things with editing that I just didn't, listening to the playback.

(52:06):

And I'm like, well, obviously I have to rerecord that. You can't fix that. He goes, hold on a second. And then it comes back perfect. I'm just like, what the fuck did you just do? So he would let me ask questions, which was huge at the time. I was a 17-year-old kid. That was probably a massive pain in his ass through the process but he was cool enough to let me ask the questions and show me what he was doing. And then I was like, I have to get Pro Tools. I may never have an SSL, but I got to have that. And so got a inbox when I, or the little two channel inbox and a laptop and got Pro tools and that was mid 2003. That was when I just really got obsessed and I knew the whole time that I liked being in a band.

(52:45):

Playing shows was cool, going out of town and doing all that stuff and meeting people was all right. But the hard and soul of what I was passionate about was always being in the studio and creating and writing and then tweaking parts and what all can happen in the production process. Learned a lot from Paul. It wasn't a quick process. I'm almost 40 and it's been constant grinding to get to this spot, but I guess anybody that has that genuine passion is staying up, worrying about it most nights like I did. I just kind of want to encourage that if the passion's legitimate and you know that this is what you want for the right reasons, just even when it feels impossible, man, just keep grinding through it because eventually a door's going to open up. And I think that success, you can equate a lot of things to that, but I think that it's what happens when opportunity meets preparation.

(53:35):

If you are constantly grinding and constantly staying prepared in your craft and what you do the moment, because a million opportunities have probably already come around to people that just weren't prepared for 'em. So they passed 'em by and they didn't even realize it happened because people can see that. But if you're constantly preparing yourself and you're gearing up for what's going to be expected of you, and then the people that can make those decisions come along, they're going to see that. And then you're going to have your chance to prove it. And so just constantly grind and work at it and never let yourself get complacent. That is literally what's going to kill everything. So

Speaker 1 (54:13):

That's the truth. It's a never ending grind.

Speaker 3 (54:16):

Yep.

Speaker 1 (54:17):

Well, I think this is a good place to end the episode, man. I want to thank you very much for taking the time to hang out. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (54:25):

Sure. It was absolutely fun. Yeah, I got to go pick up a guitar across town and get back with those boys, and I literally got a text a minute ago from Seit Epitaph. We've got to get the single finished up and get ready to get out there. I

Speaker 1 (54:39):

Awesome, man. Well, good luck with that and thank you.

Speaker 3 (54:41):

Thanks, man.

Speaker 4 (54:43):

I

Speaker 1 (54:43):

Appreciate you guys.