CURT MARTIN: Marine Corps discipline, writing rock hooks with pop, and lying to work with the Backstreet Boys

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the URM Podcast. Our guest today is Mr. Curt Martin, who you're kind of friends with.

Speaker 2 (00:08):

Yeah, I've been doing some work with Curtis man. He is just one of the hardest upcoming people right now in the rock world. I mean, he works in a lot of different genres. I shouldn't just say rock, but Curt's got credits like Echo and Fix and Call Me Charisma and Ryan Oaks and Catch a Breath, and everyone's going to Curt right now. He is just banger after banger after banger. And having worked with him, he's the real deal. Anytime I get something from Curt, I know it's going to be super badass. The dude is so fun to work with and he's just a great guy.

Speaker 1 (00:39):

Awesome. Well let's get right to it then.

Speaker 2 (00:42):

Curt, man, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. You've been absolutely killing it and we've been had the fortunate luck of having got on a few really good records lately with Fix to do it really well and Echo on the Feed. And you are one of the fastest upcoming producers right now in rock, which is crazy. You are just blowing up. I see your name everywhere. Everyone is talking about you. You are just on fire and killing it. So what's cool to me is back in the day, we actually worked on a thing together with me and Joey. I know now you're just killing it in the pilot seat. So you want to talk about your backstory and how you came up?

Speaker 3 (01:22):

Yeah, who are you?

(01:24):

I'm Curtis Martin and yeah man, I used to just be in some little metal bands. I actually started one, the one that Joel and Joey worked on when I was in the Marine Corps. So I spent five years in the Marines and during that time I was always passionate about music in high school. So I tried to start it again in the Marines with an all marine metal band called As We Walk and we ended up coming across Joey Sturgis and we went to record with him and then Joel ended up mixing it. Once I got out, I just decided to keep pursuing that. So I ended up doing the band for a little bit, then I kind of gave it up. I got more passionate about audio engineering and producing over time and started working under people like Kyle O'Dell for a little bit.

(02:08):

Kyle is so sick, dude. Yeah, Kyle's awesome. He taught me a lot. I worked under him for a couple years until I ended up moving to Vegas to learn under Kevin and Kane Chico for a little while. And that's actually where I met Echo. And once we started working together and I started getting my own little indie projects off the ground like him, I just kind of went on my own thing and I've just been at it ever since, just kind of grinding year by year, just trying to keep growing and now I'm here in LA in my studio.

Speaker 1 (02:36):

That's awesome. Can I ask you a little bit about your time in the Marine Corps?

Speaker 3 (02:40):

Sure. Ask me anything.

Speaker 1 (02:41):

We have a lot of active duty and also veteran listeners of the podcast and members of URM Academy who have balanced getting better at music with whatever they do in the military and then also after the military have tried to make this their careers. And I've seen it go all the way matter of ways from super successful to not kind of like anybody else. But what I was wondering was while you were in the Marine Corps, how obviously that's a lifestyle kind of job where a lot or if not all of your time is accounted for. How did you pursue music while doing that?

Speaker 3 (03:32):

Honestly, yeah, I mean the Marine Corps is a full-time lifestyle job. They own your ass forever, ever, all hours of the day. And hell, they can take your weekends away from you if they want. Basically ground your ass and pretty much, I dunno, I was obsessed with music, I always loved it. So even in between late at night, I wouldn't even sleep. I would just download logic and try to record some stuff. I got this M audio profile, a little interface I was working on just making my own little demos. And even when I deployed, I actually had a Line six interface, one of those pods or something and a schechter airship to me so that I could write and record while I was overseas and I was known for that. And the military, I was like, that guy's always fucking recording on his guitar. I was on a boat on the USS Cure Sarge just fucking between any mission or any workouts or whatever the hell they make you do, I would record and write. I literally did that all the time. And

Speaker 1 (04:27):

You had space for Hell

Speaker 3 (04:29):

No, I had this coff,

Speaker 1 (04:31):

I've heard that the space, the space for individuals on ships I've heard is,

Speaker 3 (04:34):

Oh God, so you have this

Speaker 1 (04:37):

Negative space,

Speaker 3 (04:37):

You have this little coffin rack, right? I mean it is honestly really similar to a tour bus bunk, right? Same shit. So I would put my laptop in my little interface and I would sit in front of my bunk and I would just write fucking metal demos and shit. And it was, yeah, actually I don't even know if I used any of that shit because it all sucked. I sucked back then. But that's how I started gaining the skills. And funny enough, I think maybe some ways music was always supposed to be something I was supposed to do because even in the military, the first people I found was Drew Folk and Kyle O'Dell and I recorded my first band's demo with Drew Folk and Kyle. This was like 2010, 11 Prew Blood Drew folk. And he was working with Kyle at Think Sound. And I remember bringing my demo to those guys first and they're like, did you record this? And I was like, oh, what are you using? I was using Propellerheads reason for synth whatever I could fucking download to make a demo. And they're like, oh well this is how you should edit guitars, man. You need to be in this fucking algorithm, polygraph whatever, fucking mode and edit your guitars this way. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (05:46):

Polygraph mode. Hey everybody, I want to take a quick break from this episode to talk to you about URM Academy. So if you're new here, URM Academy is the best online school for metal and rock producers and musicians. When you join, you get a whole access to a range of content. There's nail the mix switch I'm guessing most of, and that's where we bring on a different artist and a different mixer every month to walk through a mix and give you the raw multitracks. And we've had on mixers like Will Putney, ands Borin, Tom Lord Algae with artists, bring me the Horizon, Shuga, periphery, opec, even Nickelback and tons more. If it's under the heavy music umbrella as I like to call it, we cover it. You also get our Mix lab tutorials, which are little bite size tutorials about very specific topics. We have over a hundred of those now.

(06:46):

So if you don't have the time for Nail the Mix session or an entire course, you just want to find one tidbit of info to help solve a problem. That's what Mix Labs are for. We also have exclusive members, only Facebook and Discord groups where you can make friends with and talk to thousands of people from all over the world who do the exact same thing as you. And what's super awesome about our community is that it's troll free. We kick trolls out, it's like an Oasis online and also our instructors are part of the community and they interact with everybody. So you can not only make friends, but you can I guess socialize and learn from the best. Also we have URM Enhanced, which is our more advanced membership tier. The main focus of that is our Fast Track library, which are some very, very, very detailed courses on everything from editing drums to post-production effects, automation, creating impulse responses, working with low tune guitars and more. We have over 70 of these. It's actually insane how deep and comprehensive the fast tracks are. And when you join Nail the Mix or URM enhanced, you also get access to Riff Hard. Our online school for metal guitarists with hundreds of lessons from artists such as Animals as Leaders, spirit Box, arc Spire, Jason Richardson, and many more. So go to URM Academy. Let's get back into this episode. So I was curious if the discipline from the military translated over to discipline required for getting good at something technical like music?

Speaker 3 (08:28):

Yeah, no, I mean it really does. I think in school I was just like a shithead skateboard kid who couldn't pay attention in class. But once they beat that shit into you in the military, you learn how to focus more and that became an obsession with just trying to get better and learn and be able to actually teach myself something. And I think the discipline helped me. I don't think I would've been able to have the focus I needed. I was just such an all over the place, didn't give a shit about anything type kid growing up. I definitely think the military helped me with that. And I think just, I dunno, the military really doesn't instill a lot into you and whatever. It made me very, what's the word? I dunno. It made me more ambitious to think I could do more so that I never really gave up on myself just after I got out I just kept chipping away at trying to make this a thing for me.

Speaker 1 (09:15):

And how long did it take? Let's see, after you got out till, I mean how long did you take? Is a broad, how long did it take? It's kind of a broad question. What I mean is from the time that you discharged

Speaker 3 (09:29):

Yes

Speaker 1 (09:31):

Till the time where you started to see signs of life, this could be a career that I get paid for, how much time elapsed?

Speaker 3 (09:42):

I think the first thing that ever gave me some hope that I could maybe be able to do for a job was, let's see, I got out in 2014 and I was in Austin, Texas and I was trying to go to, what's that place called? The Art Institute for Audio Engineering. And I had been doing it for long enough then that I went to the school for a year maybe and I was like, man, I'm better than my damn teachers. These guys don't know shit. Damn straight. Yeah, because I've been in the fucking forums using SPR for years and shit like that. Like the

Speaker 2 (10:14):

Og? Oh yeah, yeah, esp. You know what I mean? That was

Speaker 3 (10:17):

Ryan Harvey.

Speaker 2 (10:18):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (10:19):

Ryan Harvey. Love you dude. Yeah, I talk to that guy every once in a while still. He's from Oklahoma too. I'm from Oklahoma originally. Well there

Speaker 1 (10:26):

Out Ryan.

Speaker 3 (10:27):

And I was just like, guys, guitar tones suck. This place sucks. So I left and I stayed good friends with Kyle and over time he was like, Hey man, do you want to come engineer for me? And that must've been probably 2016, 17. And that's when I really was like, Hey, maybe I get a little upstart in this, maybe I have a chance. So I mean it took me even three or four years after the military of just grinding, trying to figure shit out. Maybe I'll go to school, maybe I'll start another fucking band. And then I was like, nah, I'm just going to engineer and produce.

Speaker 1 (10:56):

But you knew, I'm guessing that, so you knew as you were leaving the military this is what you're going to do. A

Speaker 3 (11:02):

Hundred percent. And that is why I left the military. I left the military to pursue a career in music.

Speaker 1 (11:07):

Interesting. I'm just wondering, do you think that sometimes problems that people have when they leave the military are caused because of a lack of direction?

Speaker 3 (11:18):

Absolutely. I mean, honestly, when I got out of the military, I was all, I got my fucking car repoed. I didn't know how to be a human at all. You know what I mean? You,

Speaker 1 (11:25):

I was in there, you knew what you wanted to do,

Speaker 3 (11:26):

I knew what I wanted to do. But you got five years of being told what to do every day and not even have to really worry about bills because you live in the barracks and stuff. You don't have to do shit when you get out. This shit was hard. But I got it together and I figured it out quick, but I knew what I wanted to do the whole time. So I was always goal focused on that. Almost probably too focused. I wasn't really worried about how am I going to fucking pay rent this month.

Speaker 1 (11:49):

Well, I mean you learn what happens pretty quick.

Speaker 3 (11:54):

Pay,

Speaker 1 (11:54):

Rent,

Speaker 3 (11:54):

Bounce back real fast. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (11:55):

Yeah. That's a quick learn cycle I think.

Speaker 3 (11:58):

Oh for

Speaker 1 (11:59):

Sure. On not paying rent.

Speaker 3 (12:00):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:02):

Okay. So you said about three, four years before it started to

Speaker 3 (12:05):

Show anything at all, but even

Speaker 1 (12:07):

Anything

Speaker 3 (12:07):

I was making not that much engineering. It took a while to actually, to get to the point where I now have a studio here in Van Nuys, California. I got some gear and stuff I like and my favorite mic that took a long time.

Speaker 1 (12:21):

During those three or four years, how did you keep your head in the game?

Speaker 3 (12:28):

I have always had a stupid to a fall undying relief in myself. I don't know why. I just always knew I would be, I always was like, now you got this, just got to get through this shit, you'll be fine. I dunno, I always just thought I could do it. That's all I can really say. And I think maybe I got that ignorant pride from the military, you know what I mean? Or arrogant

Speaker 1 (12:49):

Really. So from people I know who have done the military, I'm not trying to turn this into a recruiting ad

Speaker 3 (12:57):

Or anything. I'm cool. I can talk about military all day. I feel people don't ask me about it enough.

Speaker 1 (13:02):

I'm fascinated with discipline and perseverance because that's what it takes to do extraordinary things. So I've always been interested in organizations where that's kind of like if you don't have those things, you're kind of fucked. And the point of a lot of the early training is to basically get, from what I understand is to get your head into that kind of head space. So basically endurance, resilience, those are the things that people need in order to get any sort of career in music.

Speaker 3 (13:42):

100%, yeah,

Speaker 1 (13:43):

Because you're going to have years and years of zero evidence in the world. People around you are not going to believe in you. You're not going to have anything coming back at you to tell you, alright, there's some evidence that of a future. There's some evidence you're going to have to go all on faith for quite a while. And a lot of people don't make it to the other side because they don't believe they can. Some wouldn't be able to, but I guarantee you a whole lot of people who would've been able to just stop before they get to that other side because they don't believe they can

Speaker 3 (14:20):

A hundred percent. I mean I think I definitely got that out of the military. The stuff when I got in, I could barely do a pull up and then somehow they train me to be able to do 25 in a row, stuff like that. Like, oh man, if I can do this, I can do that. If I can do this, I can do that. Just perseverance and confidence that they put in yourself. But also what you're saying too, it really is just patience and keeping at it. I mean a lot of the bands you see that become, this works for both producers and bands. The bands you see still torn still killing it. They just kept at it 10 plus years until they became a name where they pull kids every night. I think a lot of the successful bands today are ones just that kept at it.

Speaker 1 (14:58):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (14:59):

Yeah, I can think of a couple of bands like that, for example, Curt, I know you're going to be working with versus Me. And I mean I've worked with that band in different iterations for probably 12 to 15 years. And I mean, I'm just watching them now and I just remember when they were getting started, a local band in Janesville, Wisconsin, and now they have a song that's got 14 million streams and two years and they're turning down offers left and and they're, you're killing it. And it's so cool to see a band go out and just grind like that and figure it out and just call me like, dude, I just figured out TikTok and oh my God, and blah blah blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 (15:32):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:33):

Just all the different things they try and they just keep going no matter what. Just keep putting stuff out, keep trying to tour, keep going no matter what else is going on in the world. And eventually if the music is good and you believe in yourself, I feel like you have a pretty good chance at doing it. Most people tap out.

Speaker 3 (15:50):

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I mean, a good example too is Echo My Boy Echo when I started Kill That Dude. I mean, I think that guy has been going at it for 10 plus years, but he's never given up. He, he's the perfect example of a perfect steady climb. You know what I mean? When I got to him, it was like a hundred, maybe 200,000 monthly listeners and we just 2 50, 300 and now he's at 1.2, 1.3 million. We had some few songs,

Speaker 2 (16:17):

Just a shoe thing is that with

Speaker 3 (16:18):

Vans, he's

Speaker 2 (16:19):

Got his own shoe endorsement.

Speaker 3 (16:21):

He's got official Echo Van Shoe because he had a song that he rapped about Vans and kids would throw the van shoe on stage and he would sign it. They finally saw that he'd been doing that for, I dunno, I think 10 years. I think that was one of his first songs. And then finally, TikTok exists now, and so he makes a TikTok about it. They see the TikTok and they're like, Hey man, we're going to come to a show. And eventually they ended up doing a collaborative shoe with him, and that was 10 years in the making. Wow. Overnight

Speaker 1 (16:48):

Success.

Speaker 2 (16:49):

I saw Echo Fly

(16:51):

And just watching how both of those guys, I mean Fix like Echo is another one of these guys who's just, his grind is incredible. And watching those guys sit at their booth, talk to every single fan, go out and just hustle like that, clear merch, talk about a band that's in sync, or I should say artists that are in sync with their audience and that just know how to hustle and grind and go out and connect. They're not sitting backstage. We're too Hollywood to go out there and talk to the, we're only going to go out when we have our signing. Those guys were just, echo was at his booth all night. Fix was at his booth all night. I mean, I sat there right next to him. They're slinging merch and we're sitting there shooting the breeze. And it was awesome to see that level of passion come from artists. And you can tell those guys have earned everything in their lives and they've really, really worked hard to get it. And that perseverance and just determination to make it is incredible to watch.

Speaker 3 (17:40):

No, a hundred percent. What's funny too is I see this trend with other bands who don't really understand that level of grind and self-marketing that these guys are doing. Sometimes people reach out to me and be like, Hey man, I saw you did that echo thing. Can you do that for me? I'm like, I'm not doing that. You know what I mean? I help make them good songs, but that is a hundred percent them. And they don't realize that what it really takes today to make it as an artist in the band, you got to be a self-marketing genius. You have to grind so hard. And a lot of people just sit around and wait for things to happen. And unfortunately, we're past the days where a good song will do its thing. Hell no, it won't. You got to make a sick ass TikTok.

Speaker 1 (18:15):

Yeah, I mean a good song is a respectable thing. Obviously

Speaker 3 (18:21):

You got to have that. It all

Speaker 1 (18:22):

Starts a requirement. It all starts there,

Speaker 3 (18:24):

But it

Speaker 1 (18:24):

Doesn't end there.

Speaker 3 (18:26):

A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, you got to have a good song and I feel like I do give that to my boys, but they're the ones making it do numbers. I have nothing to do with that.

Speaker 1 (18:35):

I think that people who one day go to a producer or videographer or video director or whoever, even when they sign to a label and they say, I want what that artist has or what you did for them.

Speaker 3 (18:54):

I see that somewhere.

Speaker 1 (18:56):

Yeah. They're pointing to the way something sounds or a certain metric that they hit on TikTok or whatever. The reason they don't feel stupid saying that is because I think when people look at other people's success, it's like an iceberg, right? All you see is what's at the top above the water. You're not seeing the skyscraper basically that's underneath the water and people just, they're not thinking about everything that they couldn't see going into it

Speaker 3 (19:33):

A hundred

Speaker 1 (19:33):

Percent. I know this family, there's a bunch of brothers and the dad's pretty successful. And the dad, I know them pretty well. The dad became more successful as they grew up. So the first kid grew up when the family was not super well off. And so the kid came of age as basically their dad got more and more successful. And so that first kid got to see it all the way from the beginning. And so that kid ended up being the most successful one.

Speaker 3 (20:17):

Makes sense

Speaker 1 (20:18):

Because they understood the grind. Whereas I noticed that their youngest one who came in once, that family was already doing really, really well, only saw the results of it. And therefore kind of doesn't have much of an idea of how to make things happen because they've only seen the outcome. They've never seen the journey of it. And I think so. And the same thing happens when people see a success. They see something go viral, they're not thinking about and they can't think about it much. They can't actually see it, but they can't see the decade and all the decisions that went into it.

Speaker 3 (21:03):

Yeah, everything goes into it for sure. You're right about

Speaker 1 (21:06):

That. Yeah. So I think it's important for people, it's natural, this is for everybody listening. It's natural to see something successful that you want for yourself and to think that it's easy or to think that you can emulate it. But the thing to always remember is that behind every one of those successes that you want to emulate, there's about a decade or more of shit you can't see. And you have to kind of do that for yourself and figure out how that works for you.

Speaker 2 (21:42):

I remember seeing, maybe it was an interview by Jacoby Shaddock from Papa Roach, and he was talking about people know us from the one song that blew up and then the career we had. But what they don't know is the 10 years of us sitting in parking lots, handing out demo tapes and going to shows and pestering people in line religiously every weekend for years and years and years and years before we got that first deal and before we had that first song that blew up. It seems to be a common theme over time that if those who are hungry will go out and hunt and bring back the kill and then reap the rewards and have the feast.

Speaker 1 (22:21):

Yep. So if I was to meet you in an elevator and ask you what you do, how would you define it?

Speaker 3 (22:29):

I mean, I am a music producer, audio engineer, music producer. I mean, honestly though, everything I work on, I write with. So I definitely consider myself a songwriter, maybe first and foremost. I honestly feel like that's really what got me into it. What I specialize in more than anything is I songwriter and then produce the idea with the artists I make.

Speaker 1 (22:53):

So you're a songwriting producer?

Speaker 3 (22:54):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (22:56):

I feel like that is becoming more and more and more and more of a thing where there used to be a separation

Speaker 3 (23:08):

Between

Speaker 1 (23:08):

The two kind of, there used to be a separation between an engineer and a producer, just like you're seeing that lots of bands are now. I think you're also seeing that lots of producers are now also the writer. There was a time where it was super normal to bring the outside writer to work with the producer. And I know that still happens, but I think that more and more the writer is the producer or the co-writer is the producer.

Speaker 2 (23:41):

I think the writer producers are actually dominating now, meaning that I'm thinking about all of the people like in LA and Nashville, and most of them, the ones that are killing the charts right now, they're almost all writer producers and they're still engineer producers. But the problem with the engineer producers is they have the best sounding tracks, but they don't write hits. And the writer producers focus more on the writing side. So they always struggle a little bit more on the engineering side. So you get not all of them, but you get, it's an interesting dichotomy when you're mixing to get tracks from different camps and just see where people's brains are focused and where they're strong. And

Speaker 1 (24:17):

That's why Wizard Blood, Jeff Dunn is such a winning combination

Speaker 2 (24:23):

Because

Speaker 1 (24:24):

I know that Drew sees himself as, I mean he can engineer, but he sees himself as less of an engineer, whereas Jeff is just like a technical fucking monster. That's why that is, was has been, I don't know, they're still working together or not, but just a banger of a team.

Speaker 2 (24:45):

Now, Curt, you got an awesome dude that you work with. Speaking of teams, Matt Beats Matt, Matthew Bathon, man.

Speaker 3 (24:51):

He is, yeah. I love that guy.

Speaker 2 (24:53):

Dude. He's incredible. Talk about your guys' relationship and how you guys came. Al doesn't, I don't think as Matt, but Curt works a lot with this other guy.

Speaker 1 (25:01):

I do not know this. Matty Beats you speak of

Speaker 2 (25:03):

Dude. He is. He's sick. I mean, just like Curt, his work is fucking sick. You open up their tracks to mix and you're just like, yes, this is fucking good. So how did you guys meet? I know you guys work a lot together.

Speaker 3 (25:16):

So Maddie Beats actually in the early days of TikTok, he was one of the first duet this beat or hop on my beat kind of guy. And he was one of the first ones on that, in my opinion. I think when I met him, he already had, I dunno, a hundred thousand followers on TikTok, but him and he and Echo got in touch because I think Echo saw a beat of his and he was like, Hey, I'm going to fly this guy Maddie in to do a session. This was years ago, I think it was whenever TikTok, it might've been like 20, 21 maybe. Yeah. So he came to my house to do a session with me, him and Echo, and we just really hit it off. I think we stayed up all night that night just talking and chilling and having a beer. And we have been working together on a lot of stuff ever since. We have this dynamic where I'll sit at the computer to, I always record Echo's vocals and stuff, but he'll be over the side of his computer just making loops, making sense, fucking shit up and just airdropping, airdropping, airdropping. And I'm like, fuck yeah, this is sick. I'm going to put this in the verse. Alright, this will go in the chorus and then we just boom, echo track done. Wow, that's sick. And then same with Vix, and then we send it to you, Joel, to mix. Hopefully I don't mess it up. Now you

Speaker 1 (26:27):

Killed. Is it one of those partnerships where it just worked immediately?

Speaker 3 (26:31):

It worked right out. We just got along. He's a really easygoing guy. If anything, I could be more difficult, but he's a really chill dude and he's the easiest person to work with. I mean, the first session we did, we just hit it off and worked seamlessly.

Speaker 1 (26:46):

So I'm curious about songwriting. How did you go about developing that out? Coming out of just writing metal stuff? Did you expand your vocabulary?

Speaker 3 (27:05):

Honestly, maybe this isn't the best way to learn, but I feel like I learned out of spite, I would go to a producer for my own project and I was young, so I was very like, oh, I wrote it this way, this is my thing. And they'd be like, nah, it should be like this. I'm like, why should it be like this? This is just better. And I was like, well, fuck that guy, dude. I'm going to figure out what it is he,

Speaker 1 (27:28):

It should just be better,

Speaker 3 (27:30):

Dude. Just make it better. And I would just get so upset about people. I'd go to producers and they would just say, this isn't good enough for something. Or they would try to write over my stuff when producers, that's a job. But I was a stubborn kid in the beginnings of that. And I know it's my job now.

Speaker 2 (27:47):

I think some of the best writers are, I have another particular kid in my head who the most difficult kid I've ever worked with, but he's got a lot of number ones. So I can't argue.

Speaker 3 (27:57):

I'd always end up going with it. All right. I guess that is a better course than the one I wrote. But it would make me mad and I'd be like, what does he know that I don't know? So I'd go in those sessions and I would just be like, all right, so he's doing that and oh, okay, so he's the root key. So he sings the fifth. All right, I get that now. And then I got crazy with it. I ended up joining NSA, I lived in North Carolina and I'd go to songwriting rounds as much as I could, and I was just like at it, I just wanted to be the best. Listen to every and the writer is podcast. I started studying pop songs and I actually stopped listening to Metal to then just, I think I actually heard Drew Folk say this or something. It was like he only listens to, this was an old podcast back in the day, I think he said this, that he only listens to the top five, top 10 because what he puts in his ears will end up translating to what he ends up writing. And

Speaker 1 (28:47):

That's wise man right there.

Speaker 3 (28:50):

And so I just kept listening to the charts and I would listen to the newest charts and I just kind of made it to where it would become a natural thing to where if I hear a chord progression, I'd be like, this is what you should be singing. And that's all I did. I just trained my ears and I studied and listened and out of spite, I was just like, what does this guy know? I don't know. And I would just go learn it. So that's pretty much how I got into it.

Speaker 1 (29:14):

So the reason I was asking was because as you know, coming from the metal community, there's a lot of people in Metal who say they want to do stuff beyond metal. It's kind of like a common theme among metal musicians and metal producers is going beyond metal, but there's very few people who say, this is my niche and I'm staying in it. I know a few people like that

Speaker 3 (29:43):

Who

Speaker 1 (29:43):

Are fucking sick at metal and don't want to really go further. But you also see a lot of people who will attempt to go beyond it and then just kind of go back to metal and bands will. I remember there was this time period where you would have these extreme bands and then the vocalist would leave and try to do a rock band and it would just be terrible. Or a rock band would hire a metal producer to do something and it would just be horrifically bad. Sometimes metal producer would hire a rock mixer and that would also be horrifically bad. But the reason I think that that was often the case wasn't because these people were not talented. It's just because they put all their time into metal, years and years and years and years, and then they tried this other thing once or twice. And so with once or twice, you're not going to be as good at it as you are at Metal. I think they got discouraged. They were already making money through metal, and so they just went back to their comfort zone, safe space. But what did, what you're saying is you basically immersed yourself in this type of music that you wanted to be working on. Like Drew said, stopped listening to metal and started listening to the kind of stuff that he wanted to be working on, which I think is, that is such a huge part of it right there, is basically dedicating yourself to the genre you want to be working in or the genres you want to be working in the same way that you dedicated yourself to Metal when you were doing

Speaker 3 (31:29):

Exclusively

Speaker 1 (31:30):

Metal.

Speaker 3 (31:31):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And people don't even realize, even within metal or the biggest, I mean some people realize, but maybe not all that, the biggest hits I hear in Octane or whatever, it's just the closest thing to pop that could squeeze in and dress up as a metal or rock song. It's always that. It's always just every big, bring me the Horizon song is just like whatever the key of the song is, he's riding the root, the fifth, you know what I mean? Fifth to whatever. It's always that. It's like you go through one by one or what's the other one? Well, all their songs and it's just the fifth. He just sings the fifth on the top of the chorus every time and people, and that's what they do and pop because it's pleasant to hear that chord and that melody with that chord. And it's all pop. The more you get to learn and get used to those pop melodies, the better rock hits you're going to make too.

Speaker 2 (32:20):

What's interesting about that is as you go around LA for example, it's amazing how many people that I meet that work in pop that are major players that are metalheads.

(32:31):

Somebody was telling me, for example, they were working, they were filling in the studio that Max Barton was in, and as soon as the lights went out and Ariana Grande went home, they all threw on obituary and nineties death metal and shit. That's what they were jamming on to all night. So they're everywhere because I feel like there's a certain technical proficiency and knowledge base of theory. I mean, not always, but I mean people that are into metal are usually pretty nerdy and very smart and very technical and generally gravitate towards things like that. So you find people that are very focused, very talented, very knowledgeable, very skilled. And of course if you go into somewhere like Pop and you apply that level of energy or you're going to do really well, it seems like.

Speaker 3 (33:15):

Yeah, for sure. And I definitely have a lot of respect for the metal and rock engineers. I find living in LA right now, rock is kind of popping off more than usual. So even all the younger alternative cool kids, they even come to me for that rock, big rock drum guitar sound. But I noticed that pop producers cannot do what we do over here, but we can do what they do. And so I have a lot of respect for the technical ability of rocking metal engineers over anyone really.

Speaker 2 (33:43):

You can always tell by the guitar tones who comes from what school. Yeah, it's always in the pick attack. It's like the metal guys, they come in and their tones are always sick, even if it's like a pop funk guitar. And then the pop producers come in and you're like, Hey, can we maybe recut this guitar? My God, this hook is great. But they're like, oh, the guitar tone doesn't matter. Just bury it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (34:06):

It's interesting. It's really thin and chopped up too much.

Speaker 2 (34:09):

It's just not played well because you know what it takes to record guitar competitively in metal or rock? The bar is so high, it's insane. And if you don't understand that from a technical level, you don't play guitar. And if you haven't played that kind of music, you just have no comprehension of what type of performance is necessary to make the instruments sing like that.

Speaker 1 (34:34):

Yeah. And again, it just comes down to the fact that they never immerse themselves in it.

Speaker 2 (34:40):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:40):

What you want to have your outcome be career wise, you got to immerse yourself in that thing. I think you can't just do it casually. I think that this metal, or I don't want to say metal, this heavy guitar thing that has been happening in Pop, I think can we say that it dates back to 2020?

Speaker 3 (35:12):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:13):

With Mr MGK,

Speaker 3 (35:19):

I mean really, I really feel like he was the guy who kind of pushed, I'm not the biggest fan of that kind of music, but I really feel like he helped it rock and people wanting guitars

Speaker 1 (35:29):

And big

Speaker 3 (35:29):

Drums life. I really do.

Speaker 1 (35:33):

I think that's when I feel like I started to notice guitar coming back because there was a while where people were saying that guitar based music is dead. And I think that that's when it started to turn the corner from what I understand. So thank you. Thank you very much. How often do you get asked to do stuff that's outside of your comfort zone?

Speaker 3 (36:03):

Let's see. It's hard to say. I kind of have a pretty unique background in that I actually engineered for Warner Chapel for Backstreet Boys back when I worked at The Hideout. That was the separate business of it was they would have writing camps with Warner Chapel and Kure, a big vocal producer does Rihanna. I got to be his engineer for the Baxter Boys DNA album. So I feel like I've just been blessed to do everything. Even when I was working with Kyle, I did some Euro death metal at two 20 BPM live drums, all blast beats the whole time editing that. And I don't really feel like a lot's out of my comfort zone at this day and age, but I get asked to do pretty much everything. I mean, I do Nashville pop tracks with some lap steel guitars to hard rap, the trap beats to metal songs.

Speaker 1 (36:57):

We need to talk about the Backstreet Boys.

Speaker 3 (36:59):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:59):

Yeah. You can't just drop that. Yeah, I worked with all of those guys. I record single one. Alright, so let's talk about the Backstreet Boys for a second. Second. Yeah. Alright.

Speaker 2 (37:08):

First of all, I never thought I would ever hear come out of Ale's mouth.

Speaker 1 (37:11):

Keep going. It's an iconic artist.

Speaker 2 (37:16):

What just happened? Keep going. I love it.

Speaker 1 (37:19):

No, I want to hear how you end up working with them.

Speaker 3 (37:25):

That's a good story.

Speaker 1 (37:26):

That's like a C, that's like a ccia, a level gig. Don't just work with the Backstreet Boys. It's a big deal. So

Speaker 3 (37:35):

I want

Speaker 1 (37:36):

To hear how that happened.

Speaker 3 (37:38):

I won't make it too long. It could be a very long story, but I'll give you the very beginning of what kind of plays into it. In 2018, Kane Chiko reached out about my band six Light. Long story short, he wanted to develop us. I went there, he was like, he recorded this. I was like, I did. And he was like, you want a job? Boom. So I worked there. Now, in order to keep making money though, especially on the side, they have all those few bins of the hideout. I actually, I saw you guys there for his, I was working there when you guys did his nail the mix. No way. Yeah, I was there. I literally saw you aal. I said

Speaker 1 (38:13):

Hi to you. 16.

Speaker 3 (38:14):

Yep.

Speaker 1 (38:16):

Was I an asshole?

Speaker 2 (38:17):

No,

Speaker 3 (38:17):

You were cool. Alright,

Speaker 1 (38:18):

Good.

Speaker 2 (38:20):

And Kevin, they're just amazing people and that

Speaker 3 (38:21):

I was like, bitch boy, assistant level when I saw you. So I think I was just plugging in cables for him.

Speaker 1 (38:26):

I never consider anybody bitch boy that works at studios.

Speaker 3 (38:31):

So funny story, when he asked me to work there, I think at the time I was working, I was working in Cubase for a little bit and he asked me, he was like, do you know Pro Tools? And I was like, oh hell yeah, I love Pro Tools. Never worked in Pro Tools before. So I was like, I know everything about Pro Tools. And so I lied because I wanted the gig really bad and I figured, Hey, I'm a smart guy. I can fucking learn it. So I'm over there before I moved to Vegas and just uplift my life from North Carolina. I'm reading the manual, reading everything about Pro Tools, trying to, all right, this is how you hit record. It must have been the first week there. It was like, Hey Curt, you seem like you know what you're doing. We really need an engineer for this project. You're going to be working with Kore, set 'em up with ACL one B and a 10 73 and a Sony C 800. I was like, got it. And I walk in, it's a Backstreet Boys. It was the first gig I did when I moved there. Holy. And I didn't know Pro Tools. I lied. So I was working on the Backstreet Boys and I didn't actually know Pro Tools, honestly. CQL is a very famous vocal producer. He's done.

Speaker 1 (39:33):

Wait, so was that terrifying to

Speaker 3 (39:36):

I was sweating and I would go to, you

Speaker 1 (39:37):

Did not know,

Speaker 3 (39:38):

Dude. I would go to the bathroom and Google.

Speaker 1 (39:41):

That's a nightmare.

Speaker 3 (39:42):

Yeah, I was like, I was on Gear Sluts or some shit like Best C one B setting and like, all right, cool, cool. I was like, what's the best pop vocal C one B setting? Alright guys, lemme go ahead and dial this in for us. And I didn't know fucking shit, but I faked it the whole way and it worked. Wow. Yeah. I mean, me and the vocal producer I got, who was I hangout with the most? I can't.

Speaker 1 (40:02):

How did you get around the lack of pro tools knowledge on a pro tool session? The bathroom?

Speaker 3 (40:08):

Well, yes, but operating a dog

Speaker 1 (40:12):

With the Backstreet Boys.

Speaker 3 (40:13):

I don't want to toot my own horn or anything, but I used to work in Intel in the Marines and stuff, and I'm just quick on the uptake. I just had to do, I was just studying. I stay up all night, all right, next day. And I just get better as fast as humanly possible. Okay, fair enough. But I'm sweating bullets. It was rough. It was crazy. That was the first thing I did for the Hideout was the Backstreet Boys. But it worked out. I remember hanging out with AJ McLean and he gave me his number. We were chill. He was showing me some projects he was working on. It was a good time, but I was

Speaker 1 (40:47):

So nervous. Did they like the settings?

Speaker 3 (40:49):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (40:50):

No, they were good. Those settings worked.

Speaker 3 (40:51):

I mean, it was, I was playing it safe, just like a little one db, a compression touch a little kiss it. The bicker can fix it later. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (40:58):

So you can't mess up a C one B. It's pretty tricky. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (41:01):

Yeah, it sounded fine.

Speaker 1 (41:04):

It's so amazing. The whole fake it till you make it thing. I fake the shit out of it. So fake it till you make it is a very real thing. It's super dangerous. But it's one of those things where I feel like you will never be totally ready for what life has to offer for you. So if you basically don't put yourself out there

(41:33):

Because you are afraid that you don't have this perfect mastery over the subject or that you don't belong there or that just a little bit more schooling and you'll be ready or whatever. That's all bullshit. You just got to take the leap. And at some point you're going to have to get yourself into a situation where it's above what at that time and just kind of make the best of it. It's very important though that when you do that, you kind of do what you did, which is not sleep and do everything possible to get up to speed.

Speaker 3 (42:16):

A hundred percent. I think that's really important, especially for anybody listening and whatnot. I mean, I think something that probably got me any sort of career at all, I mean, I'm still grinding, still trying to come up, but I would always put myself in a comfortable positions because I cared more about doing anything in this job than being afraid. I was ready to fail, to just give it a shot, even though I wanted to curl up in a ball, call in sick and be like, oh guys, sir, I can't do it. Because I was so nervous. I honestly didn't feel prepared one bit and I really wasn't. But when you're handed certain opportunities like that, you really have to try to find a way to live up to it, live up to that moment. Or

Speaker 1 (42:51):

Can we talk about that week exactly how you prepped? Just because, man, we've all known those people who lied their way into a gig, and then it became super obvious and then they didn't last a day. But then we were just talking to a couple of other people. I feel like the past few weeks wasn

Speaker 2 (43:09):

Off. He was talking about scoring, right? And he just walked in, comes

Speaker 1 (43:13):

Crossed. It comes up. Yeah, exactly. This is a thing where people will say, yes, I know how to do this, and then they don't and they figure it out fast. So between the time that you said, yeah, I know Pro Tools till the day where you walked in and it's the fucking Backstreet Boys surprise surprise. What was your schedule like learning pro tools as much as you could?

Speaker 3 (43:40):

I definitely gave every, I wasn't sleeping. I bought Pro Tools and then started playing around in it, trying to record stuff, reading the manual, trying to read shortcuts. I mean, I wasn't going to squander the opportunity, so whatever it took, whether I didn't sleep anymore, which I didn't, even between the BRE boys sessions, I would still be like, shit, I still don't know what this is, and what does compression really fucking do you? Whatever. You know what I mean? And I was just learning and grinding and trying to understand. So at the very least, I think I could come in there with even false confidence. So if it sounds pretty decent and I look like I know what I'm saying, it works out. They're like, oh, it seems good to go. And the preparation was just, I don't know, obsessive grinding. There was no other way to really put it than me just staring at my computer and reading and reading and practicing and practicing until I don't sleep at all. And then I chug seven more monsters and go do it.

Speaker 2 (44:36):

Exactly seven or six and a half or so. It was probably six and a quarter, I don't know. All right. Six and a quarter.

Speaker 1 (44:42):

And how long was that for a week? Two weeks? It

Speaker 3 (44:46):

Was like two weeks. Yeah. We was just cutting all the vocals for that DNA album?

Speaker 1 (44:49):

No, no, between when they asked you.

Speaker 3 (44:51):

Oh, a couple weeks. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:53):

Okay. So I've heard of this with some other people who got an opportunity and had two weeks to learn pro tools and also said they knew it and didn't cool and learned it enough in two weeks. It's totally possible. You just have to make it your mission in life

Speaker 3 (45:11):

During

Speaker 1 (45:12):

Those two weeks.

Speaker 3 (45:13):

Yeah. Obviously you're not going to be some extraordinary engineer or producer in two weeks, but if you can learn how to hit the record button fast enough and get through it, the basics will get you through for a simple vocal recording session.

Speaker 1 (45:27):

Man, that's so awesome. I can't imagine what it must have felt like the moment you heard it was the Backstreet Boys. It's like a stomach sinking feeling

Speaker 3 (45:40):

Cold sweats, man, I was just, I full on, I feel like I was going to have a panic attack, but I think it was just that desire to not mess up or not miss this opportunity that was enough to kind of beat the fear. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (45:54):

That positive eustress, I think that's important because we were talking about earlier, having confidence in yourself, not necessarily sometimes in your ability, but your ability to learn

Speaker 3 (46:03):

And

Speaker 2 (46:04):

To be able to achieve and just overcome obstacles, I think is very, very important skillset for anybody. Because if you don't have that, you need to figure out how to develop it. It's something that just perfect example will save your ass when you need it. Well,

Speaker 1 (46:20):

Yeah, because you can't possibly be ready for every possible scenario you can predict. You cannot predict every scenario that's going to present itself. You can predict lots of things, but it'll always be that thing you didn't think of that comes in and fucks up your world. And more important than being a hundred percent prepared for every scenario is being a hundred percent prepared to prepare for every scenario quickly or to adapt, I guess, to adapt quickly.

(46:57):

I feel like touring is actually a really good, it's a good test of this, especially before you get into the bus level, because when you're responsible for your own transportation and you can't yet afford a tour manager, different people in the band are driving, you're constantly improvising. Something is always going wrong, and you're having to balance your safety. Somebody not falling asleep at the wheel every single night between getting there on time, between maintaining all your gear, maintaining the health of everybody, maintaining the show, being as good as possible, just all these different things that when you put them into a moving environment like that where there's just the stress of being constantly on the road and the stress of, yeah, I feel like being in a van 12 hours a day moving puts people in a heightened state of danger because they kind of are.

(48:05):

And so you don't get adequate rest. And so you learn to improvise kind of in scenarios where your adrenaline is going to be spiked from getting on stage, and then it's going to go down and you have to still get everything packed up properly. You have to make sure that you are awake enough to drive all night long. You have to make sure that you're accounting for all the merch. You have to make sure that everybody's getting fed. You have to, all these different things that nobody's helping you with. I feel like doing that trains really, really well for just being able to adapt to situations. So I recommend anyone who wants to do a band or whatever, try to go on tour in a van for a little while. It'll teach you how to adapt to situations quickly. But I mean, even if you don't do that, I think not getting scared off by shit that just comes up and actually looking at that as an opportunity to learn how to adapt, I think is a really good mentality.

Speaker 3 (49:08):

A hundred percent. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:11):

So in the URM group, I've seen people sometimes complain when that some band will send them a disaster of a session to mix. And I understand it can be a little frustrating, but I really think that that's the wrong attitude. And there's several pros have gone in on those posts and kind of tried to correct the op that it's not a bad thing when that happens. This is your opportunity to see how good you are, and if you could take this disaster session that this local band sent you, turn it around, make it sound great, think about what you can do when you're in a better scenario. So I think just learning how to adapt to whatever life throws at you is pretty necessary for all this.

Speaker 2 (50:05):

Yep. Alright, Curt, I'm going to drill you with some questions and just get me with the first thing that comes to your mind and why. Okay. Are you ready? I'm going to try. Okay. If you could give one songwriting tip, what would it be?

Speaker 3 (50:20):

One songwriting tip. Honestly, I think the main thing for me is kind of what we touched on it earlier, listen to what works and listen to what's charting, what people, what numbers. Put that in your ears so that when you go to write a song, you naturally hear those melodies in relation to the chords that are these big Sabrina Carpenter songs or Taylor Swift songs. So even when you're going to write a rock song, you play these chords, you will naturally be like, oh, I want to sing here. Because you put that in yourself and it becomes just what you hear now and it helps you in sessions. And I really feel like you're going to make what you listen to. And that's just the fact of it, right? If you listen to really niche indie music that does a hundred streams after a year, that's what you're going to make. That's my tip. So no small

Speaker 2 (51:07):

Time, just shoot for the stars. Always.

Speaker 3 (51:09):

That's how

Speaker 2 (51:10):

I am, man. Alright. Next question. What is one thing in your approach to making records now that's different than when you started that you think has been important to your success?

Speaker 3 (51:22):

I think right now there is a timeframe, and I think it came from me doing a lot of rap music too, where it was all about hurrying and how fast can you do it. And then I started listening to more Miranda, the writer, his podcast. And I learned from Daniel Nigro. He said some of his best work took him six months. And not to that you should take that long, but I feel like me, even when I just, I'm actually doing a record right now, and I talked to the label and I was like, I need this much time. I absolutely have to have this much time. I need to spend at least X amount of days on a song so that I can really think about it and be thorough and not miss anything. And I don't want to overthink it too. You don't want to take a whole month either.

(52:03):

But I used to try to do an entire full production in six hours and call it done. And that just isn't, it just didn't really, I found that I would go back and listen to it and just not be proud of what I did, and I couldn't even listen to the record anymore. But now I like to take adequate time and almost go back to my style of record producing is kind of back to the basics now. I want the guitar players to come in and play their damn parts. I track live drums with Kyle Black over here in the other studio. I just want everything to take its time and be made with a unique sound rather than use the same old. Everything you can just find online and whatnot is my new way. I'm doing things right now, but in the past I wasn't doing that

Speaker 2 (52:45):

Six hours to complete a production. Sounds like you're a mixer.

Speaker 1 (52:49):

Yeah. That's brutal. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:51):

Okay, three more questions. What do you think are some common denominators of a hit song?

Speaker 3 (52:58):

Common denominators of hit song? I definitely feel like in today's world, something I've been really focusing on is trying to have a standout title or unique thing. I mean, Sabrina Carpenter's, espresso, all that weird, something that you wouldn't hear like, oh, let's write another save yourself, or whatever the hell. You know what I mean? Unique titles. And again, the correct melody in relation to the chord, right? That's just what it is. I always study what tempos are working, what keys people are really listening to you right now. I think those are just a common denominators. I mean a good melody on a good chord with a unique title that stands out, especially in today's world, you need to do something a little bit more every year, whether it's used to be put out a good song. Now you have to make a cool TikTok. Well now you need to stand out in other ways too with a title. No one's seen, but damn, I want to click on that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (53:44):

If you had to pick one vocal chain, what would it be?

Speaker 3 (53:49):

One vocal chain probably. I'm really in love with my current mic. It's a golden age audio 2 51 vintage tube and a 10 73 and I don't know what it is. I mean, people will say Seal one B or LA two A all day, but I really love a stressor on a vocal

Speaker 2 (54:10):

Stressor. Seems to be a common theme. Everybody just loves them. Okay, and then final question, if there's a record that people should check out, what record inspires you the most right now? It can be from any era.

Speaker 3 (54:23):

Any era. What record inspires me the most? Honestly, I always go back to, I mean, my roots as far as cool, unique vocal lyrics and stuff. I've always been a huge circus survive Jew Turner fan. That was what got me into music when I first heard act of Paul, I was like, oh, this is what I do now. This is my life.

Speaker 1 (54:42):

I actually have a question.

Speaker 3 (54:43):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:46):

When writing, do you ever go back into the archives or is everything always brand new?

Speaker 3 (54:53):

Do I pull from a song I wrote before and be like, oh, maybe I'll use this one. Or

Speaker 1 (54:57):

A song you didn't use like a song or does every song you start end up being a keeper?

Speaker 3 (55:07):

I rarely go to the archives. I don't know if I have recently. I mean, a good example is the Catch Your Breath record. I did, I dunno if you've heard it. It's called Shame on Me. Every single song on that album was written and delivered. There wasn't any extras. I just made each one consecutively in a row, so they were all keepers. So awesome. I don't have much archive.

Speaker 1 (55:33):

Love it. Love it, dude. Well, Curt, thank you very much for taking the time to hang out with us.

Speaker 3 (55:39):

Appreciate

Speaker 1 (55:40):

You guys. A pleasure getting to meet you again.

Speaker 3 (55:43):

Yes, sir. Not in the hallway. Yeah, not in the hallway.

Speaker 1 (55:47):

Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much, man. It's been, it was great being on here. Real. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (55:53):

Always Awesome,

Speaker 2 (55:54):

Curt.

Speaker 1 (55:54):

Yes, sir.