BRIAN SLAGEL: Fixing Amon Amarth’s Mix, The Secret to Metallica’s Success, Why You Must Be a True Fan

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:08):

Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way.

(00:01:10):

All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it. And use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is someone who I have had on a couple times already. I found another opportunity to have him on and that's something that I will never turn down. Brian Slagel is the CEO and founder of Metal Blade. And you might think I'm biased because my band doth is signed a metal blade right now, but I have thought that metal blade is the coolest of the metal labels long before we were assigned to them.

(00:02:11):

And I've had an admiration for what Brian and Co have pulled off. I felt like them along with a few other people that I know in the metal world, like for instance, stir Monte Connor, formerly of Roadrunner. Now nuclear blasts. There's only a few people who have spearheaded the evolution of metal and have really, really created things by which metal could evolve. And Brian Slagel has done that both on a commercial level, putting out records for years and years and years that people have loved discovering. Bands that have become legendary eventually sometimes right away, but also on a business level and within the industry he's done and they at Metal Blade have done so much to propel metal forward. I remember an event I used to go to called the Metal Summit where metal blade would bring together just a bunch of prominent people in the metal industry, booking agents, press people, managers, label people who were competitors, but at the end of the day are all just metalheads trying to push metal forward.

(00:03:24):

And at these summits, they would get together for several days and just talk about what they're noticing, sharing tips with each other, just kind of getting a pulse on where things are going, how everyone can work together, and those types of things actually really gave me an insight into what I wanted to do with URM. Believe it or not, I saw how Brian and Metal Blade created Goodwill and an environment for everybody else to thrive in. And the thinking behind URM was I want to create something like that on the recording side of things. And so all the community side of things that you see, URM doing, the URM summits, all those things that we do are in big part inspired by what I've seen Brian do with Metal Blade. So credit where credit is due. Now the reason that I have Brian on after that diatribe I just went on is his second book just came out.

(00:04:24):

This one is called Swing of the Blade. It's basically more stories and insights from Brian's 40 year long career spanning all kinds of different things from inner label workings to just really cool band stories. And if you love metal in the history of metal, it's kind of a no-brainer to just sit down and read because it's a quick read and it's entertaining. It's really, really interesting to hear the stories of how so much of this stuff happened from the people who lived it and helped it happen. Alright, I've talked long enough. Let's get into it. Brian Slagel, welcome back to the URM podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:04:58):

Thanks and thanks for having me back.

Speaker 2 (00:05:00):

Pleasure. Alright. I read the book, we spoke when the last book came out as well. I read that one too, and the whole time I was thinking to myself, how do you remember all this stuff? Seriously? Because trying to think back to things from 20 years ago, I have trouble piecing it all together. So I'm wondering what's your process for recalling all this stuff?

Speaker 3 (00:05:27):

Well, with the first book it was a little easier just because I kind of went in chronological order. So I would just look at the releases that came out that year and that would kind of spark my memory about some stories and stuff. This one was a little bit different. I didn't have that to go back to, but I just would concentrate on, okay, here's, lemme see Lizzie Bor. Let me remember some Lizzie Borden stories and I'll look at out release dates and years and stuff and just stuff would come up. But I did though have a lot of help in terms of each chapter that the band, whether it's I Saint, if it's Warning or King Diamond or Lizzie or whoever, I would finish the chapter and I'd send the chapter to them to make sure it was all accurate. And there was definitely some dates that I didn't get and there was a couple of little details that I didn't get. So I had some help with those guys. I wanted to send it to them just to make sure that they were cool with everything and also just make sure that it's as accurate as it can be.

Speaker 2 (00:06:18):

Yeah, I mean I remember where you mentioned that you and Brian Esba had two differing but potentially compatible memories of how a metal bla relationship with Black Dahlia murder came about.

Speaker 3 (00:06:32):

And that one is real vivid to me, so I argue that I'm right about that. Brian. I mean, I guess we potentially both could be somewhat right, but I remember very vividly doing the whole story is I was on MySpace when MySpace existed and they was on whatever bands site and they list other bands that you might be into it. I just remember seeing the Black Dahlia murder thinking, that's a really cool name. It clicked on their thing, listened to the music and sent an email. So that's my recollection, which was pretty vivid, but who knows? Everybody could be right.

Speaker 2 (00:07:06):

Well, the thing that you said in there about it being possible that there were parallel streams of interest happening at the same time. I found that interesting because I've noticed that usually whenever there's a band that labels are into, and I've noticed this as a fan as well, when I discover a band on my own, not through recommendation, just through the rabbit hole, however it happens, and it's always been this way when I'm getting into it, there's always a bunch of other people in parallel who are feeling the exact same way. It's always been that way. I remember bands like Oppe that just sticks out to me, coming across them on my own, being completely wowed by them and then finding out that lots of other people came across them at the exact same time on their own and came to the same conclusion on their own. It's kind of interesting to me that it also happens on the label level. How do all the a and r people get stoked about a band at the same time? They just do.

Speaker 3 (00:08:12):

Right. It brings up a really interesting story. I've been talking about this, a couple of things. I don't think it's in the book. So the night that my friend John Carner first met Lars in the parking lot of the country club in Receda in 1980, and then I of course met Lars two days later. That was a Michael Schenker show. And at that show, none of us knew each other at the time, but all the members of Metallica were there. All the members of Armored Saint were there. All the members of Moley crew, a lot of bands from who became big and the LA scene in the eighties. Almost everybody was there, but none of us knew each other. So it was kind of parallel. Universe is there too. I talked to so many people later, pretty much every band from that eighties metal scene in LA we're all at that show.

Speaker 2 (00:08:59):

Was there a lot of buzz about it?

Speaker 3 (00:09:00):

Well, it's Michael Schenker, so from UFO and all of us, we all grew up in the seventies at that point. We're all fans of UFO and Michael Schenkers still probably my favorite guitar player ever. And so we were all there because we're all fans of UFO and here he is playing instead of playing Long Beach arenas, some big arena where UFO would play, he's played the country club, which is like a 1200 seat club, and it was just a big influence for everybody. So we just all happened to be there. It's just interesting that same thing, everybody discovered him through different phases. I mean, obviously UFO was the common denominator there. It was just interesting. We're all at that same show and didn't know, nobody knew any of us. We didn't know each other. And then fast forward to three years later, the whole scene is going crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:09:44):

I do think that metal fans tend to be tapped in to the same thing a lot of the time. Obviously there's several different genres of it and stuff people like better than others, but I've noticed that when there's something truly special going on, lots of people tend to tap in independently of each other. Have you noticed that, I guess in the office to different people from staff discovering a band on their own and other people already being into it?

Speaker 3 (00:10:16):

Sure. I mean, that's been happening for years and years because everybody's a metalhead. So they're all listening to stuff and they're all getting through their contacts. They're getting turned onto bands. I mean, there's certain bands that we have publicists and radio people and all these stuff that talk to people in various cities. And that's kind of how you find out about bands or somebody gets an album or something and you say, Hey, have you heard this? Oh yeah, we've heard it. And then it eventually works its way all up to me and I'm usually usually the last one to find out about this stuff. Now I just don't have the time as much anymore to kind of go out and search for stuff. But enough of the staff does that. I don't really have to worry about that. Thankfully.

Speaker 2 (00:10:56):

That actually brings up something I wanted to talk to you about that is in the book about the fate of Norms record. You're talking about how obviously you can't be involved day to day on every single record. You guys have a lot of bands, a lot of records. It's impossible, so it makes sense. But that still, any record that comes out through Metal Blade at least comes by you at the end. So that what's going on. And you were saying that that's one of the only times that you've actually intervened and put the brakes on and made a band get a remix, especially a band that wasn't one that you were directly working with. So what I'm curious about is have there been other situations where you hear a mix and you're not feeling it, but the band is feeling it and defer to them? What was different about this?

Speaker 3 (00:11:49):

Well, yeah, and we actually have a couple of those situations happening right now where the band likes to mix. And I don't necessarily like it doesn't happen a whole lot. And invariably, I'm not going to argue with the band unless it's something that I feel extremely strongly about. It's their vision, it's their music. I don want to get in the way of it, but I do want to make it as good as it can be. And with Fate of Norns, that was the corner that Arm Martha really took because before then the records they had, they're really cool melodic death metal band and they're really good, but they had some really good songs and all this sort of stuff. But this record to me was something a little bit different. They had taken that turn of, wow, this record is incredible. Every song on this record is really good.

(00:12:33):

It's a lot of melody here. It felt to me that this could be a big record, but it just didn't sound very good. And they weren't getting huge budgets back then. They were still a small developing band, but I felt that this record could be something special, but we need to get a proper mix on it. And luckily the band, and we've worked with them forever and they usually see Eye to Eye together, which is great, which obviously makes the relationship really easy to deal with. And they agreed, yeah, that'd be great if we could get a better version of this. And we did. And the record ended up being pretty good and doing pretty well.

Speaker 2 (00:13:13):

What was the problem with the first version?

Speaker 3 (00:13:16):

It just didn't sound great. They didn't have a huge budget, so they weren't working with a lot to do that. And I think that had it just been kind of what they were doing before, it probably would've been okay. But this type of music and style that they were doing was a little bit more, like I said, more melodic, more, I don't want to say intricate necessarily, but there was more to it and it just didn't have the right sound. I think they might ran, I don't remember the exact story, but they might've run out of time and they had to mix it really quickly. It needed a proper mix to really get it to be where it should be. And that still happened here and there,

Speaker 2 (00:13:49):

Who ended up being the mixer.

Speaker 3 (00:13:50):

I can't remember if Ys did that record or somebody else did so long ago. I remember the story, but I can't remember who actually did it. I let the band and our German office, so Michael, the great Michael Reger, who was pretty much like the sixth member of Amman Mark, basically they've found a guy to get it to sound better. So I can't remember if it was Jens or not.

Speaker 2 (00:14:13):

We did a nail the mix and Amman, mark nailed the mix with Jens, but I don't remember from what record it is one thing that I think that bands have gotten better about, but that still, I think it is so important for bands to do their best, to get the best possible mix for their music. I really feel like that's one place where you can really, really destroy a record. You can take an incredible record and just completely trash it or not destroy it, but I guess really, really handicap its potential. I think that if there's going to be one place where a band invests, that would be the place in my opinion. What do you think?

Speaker 3 (00:15:02):

I agree 10000%. So back in the early days, I was doing everything one man show, Fred Metal play, and I got into the studio, not because I knew anything about it or did anything, but it was kind of a necessity, always producing it. So I figured I'll go in and do it. And the production part of it was fine, but I'm not a musician so I could hear things. I can tell if something's off key or out of the wrong notes or those sort of things are too fast, too slow. But I can't say, Hey, play that in A or D or C because I have no idea. But I did really love the mixing process. It was just taking the music and making it sound what I felt sounded good. And that was a fun process. You've got to fit everything in so people can hear everything.

(00:15:52):

And with metal, it's really difficult, especially with the heavier stuff. You've got bass kick drum, low end guitars and low end vocals all fighting for that same spot. And it's real tricky to get it so that it doesn't sound muddy and you could hear everything. And it's really the engineers and mixers that do it good. There's a reason why they get paid a bunch of money, an art, and if you have great music and it doesn't sound good, it's not going to be as great. So you need it to sound well. And really the big part of that is, I mean, two parts of it, mixing is far and away the most important part in my opinion of any record to get it to sound good. But you also need the band to sound good beforehand because a lot of bands, if you sound really good on stage or the studio, the mix will be a lot easier. So it's kind of incumbent of them to get sure, make sure you have good sounds and it's always good engineers and good producers and we're lucky that we work with a lot of them now, which is very helpful. But yeah, the mix is the most important part of every single record. A hundred percent

Speaker 2 (00:16:54):

Metal is a genre that if you write down on paper what's happening, it shouldn't sound good. It breaks every single rule of good arrangement or of what should work with the mix. There's literally no space for anything to exist. Literally everything is fighting with everything. And then if you start to add other things like more guitar layers or more vocal layers or orchestra or synth or any of these other elements, it just gets crazy. It's hard enough to pull off your standard two guitar, drums, bass, vocal metal mix that just pulling that off in and of itself is difficult. But with where bands take it now, it requires a real expertise to pull off. However, on the topic of bands sounding really good ahead of time. One of the ones that I was really, really stoked about that Metal Blade put out recently was the latest Goat who record that Kurt Mixed and Jarret produced it.

(00:18:00):

Kurt mixed it. That was a band that in the early days I think do tour with Goat Whore more than any other band probably between Goat Who and Unearth. Those are the bands that I've seen the most live out of anybody. I always remember Goat who being the best sounding live band I've ever heard night after night after night after night, just incredible, just crushing. And I like every single one of their records and I think they all sound good, all really good, but I felt like I still hadn't heard the band that I toured with quite exactly like that. And I'm not knocking any of the previous records. Like I said, I love 'em all, but this record sounds like they do live and that is only possible because of what they actually sound like. You couldn't pull that off with a band that didn't already sound like that.

Speaker 3 (00:18:52):

And you're exactly right. We've struggled over the years to get because Right, they sound so great live and they're so amazing live and we've struggled to capture that a hundred percent on a record. We've gotten close. And like I said, the records are all really good and we love Goat whore, but we always kind of like, who can we work with that can get that sound out? The sound that we hear on stage can get that sound and that energy on an album. So yeah, I think this is probably the closest we've come to really harnessing that sound, which is great. A lot of it just, you got to find the right guys to do it, who work well with the band and have the relationship with the band and all that sort of stuff. By the way, real quick, I have to give a shout out to Beno Paulson

Speaker 2 (00:19:34):

And

Speaker 3 (00:19:35):

Studio who mixed fate of nor

Speaker 2 (00:19:37):

We just found that at the same time. Yeah, shout out.

Speaker 3 (00:19:40):

It was driving me crazy. Had to look it up. But on the cohort thing, absolutely, and that's a big part of the process of recording is working with people that you really like and understand you. And also to kind of talk about a Martha A. Little bit and how they use production and stuff. They have a really interesting concept of that. And it doesn't work for every band, but I think it works great for them. They don't want to get comfortable with a producer. A lot of bands, you find the right guy and you just stick with them because you're comfortable. It makes sense, it works. Everything's good, but they don't want to be comfortable. They like to be a little uncomfortable in the studio get pushed. So if you'll notice, they'll do two or three records with a specific guy and then they'll switch and then they'll two or three records with them and then they'll switch. They've used Jen Borin and Andy Snee and Jay Rustin, and they kind of will pop around a little bit just because they like that variety and they also like to be uncomfortable and pushed. And if you get, as an artist, you use the same producer engineer for three, four records, you're comfortable. It works and it's great. But sometimes, especially for a band like Amman, they like to be pushed.

Speaker 2 (00:20:55):

I can tell you that from my perspective, that there's certain relationships, and I think this is true in business, it's true artistically. It's true. Whether as an artist working with a producer, I just think it's true that every relationship you have is going to run its course. And you don't know at the outset whether something is meant to last 40 years or five years or if this is the person you're going to work with forever or just a decade or whatever. And I think that the band producer relationship is very much in line with that. There comes a point where you've basically, it's not like the work's going to get bad if you keep working together, but whatever that spark was that created greatness has run its course. And as an artist, if you want to keep on, I guess forging new territory, that is a very obvious way to do it. By nature of getting a new producer, you're going to forge new territory. There's no way around that. I think that it's important to recognize that when it's happening, and most parties are usually pretty cool with it because it's, I feel like it's understood as just a natural part of the whole thing. It's actually really rare for a band to stick with one person through their entire career. Between The Buried and Me and Jeremy King. Almost

Speaker 3 (00:22:35):

Unheard of. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:22:37):

Almost doesn't happen. I'm trying to think who can I think of. Yeah, between the Barry and me and Jamie King, I know for a long time Black Dahlia did stuff with Jason for several records, but overall, can you think of any bands that have stayed with the same exact producer their entire career?

Speaker 3 (00:22:57):

Yeah, I don't think so. There was a lot of ones, like Cattle does a lot with Dave ero and there's a lot of bands that'll do a bunch of records with a specific producer. Maybe they find that guy two or three records in. But yeah, from day one until the end, there's very few, if any, that have done it. I mean, same thing, it's not the same, but Iron MA's my favorite band. And of course the second half when Bruce and Adrian came back, that whole part of their career, which is now, gosh, 17, 18 years, that's all been with Kevin Shirley. So they haven't straight from there, but obviously Birch and other people in the early days as well. And they've only used a couple of guys, which is for a band that's had that long a career is kind of interesting. And even a CDC was Van Young in the early days, and then they switched to Mo Wang obviously and had the success. And they've done a bunch of stuff, a lot of stuff on their own now with just different engineers.

Speaker 2 (00:23:50):

The thing is, if it works, it works. I guess that's the other side of the coin is if it really does work well the way it's always worked and that spark is still there, why change it up?

Speaker 3 (00:24:03):

Yeah, a hundred percent. Don't fix what's not broken, right?

Speaker 2 (00:24:06):

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it's not that it's broken, I think sometimes it's just that you've reached the limit of where you're going to go with a certain person, but I think it's important to recognize to just be very honest about that, but then also to not just ditch something because you want to try something new because these producer artist relationships that are like several records deep, you don't replace that. It's going to be different with somebody else. Not necessarily better or worse, but definitely different. And the level of, I guess, artistic intimacy that you get to after several records, you can't just will it into being, it's only possible through lots of intense collaboration, I think a

Speaker 3 (00:24:55):

Hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (00:24:56):

Do you ever push bands towards certain producers if you think that there's potential there?

Speaker 3 (00:25:02):

Yeah, I mean we don't do it a lot, but we'll do it with up and coming bands that may have made a couple of records on their own. It's like now they're coming up the ladder a bit, so maybe you want to work with a BC guy that we've done a lot of stuff that we know is really good because how it is early on, a lot of these bands just come out of nowhere. They make their own records and they have a local engineer, whatever, but then they start to progress and you need to work with really quality producers and engineers. So yeah, we'll push some stuff here and there, especially for some of the younger bands as they're coming up.

Speaker 2 (00:25:38):

One thing that I've noticed reading both your books and also just through observations is at URM, we have tried to at times hire people that don't have a metal background when we've needed staff members for certain things and without fail it's never really worked out. Not because they're bad at their jobs or anything, but because if they're not a music person and a metal person, there's this level of understanding that they're just not going to have for what we do. They might understand recording but not metal or they might understand metal kind of, but not anything about the music or recording end of it. We need very specifically that. But the thing that's for me is that I need to have some level of respect and love for heavy music. It doesn't matter what kind, but it's got to be there. And I've noticed that everybody in Metal who stays in Metal makes a career in Metal, is a lifelong lover of it. It doesn't work any other way. And from reading your books, it's clear to me that you've noticed the exact same thing. So what do you think it is about Metal that makes it impossible for outsiders to thrive in

Speaker 3 (00:27:02):

Thrive? Well, it's such an interesting, and you can say the same about some other genres I suppose too, but everybody that works within our industry, whether it's lawyers, managers, label employees, bands, we all love the music. That's the main thing. I mean, certainly we've dealt with some corporate lawyers and stuff that don't know anything about metal, but they're really good at what they do. But as far as employees and everybody else that we work with, I mean it's really important to understand the genre, understand the brand and be a fan because that's ultimately, especially if you look at a record label thing, especially an independent record label, it's like you're not going to go there and make a fortune. You're hopefully going to do well enough to be comfortable and live a decent life, but you're not going to a major label where if you sign some big band, you're going to be a multimillionaire.

(00:27:50):

It's just not going to happen and it's not an easy gig to have. You want people that are passionate about the music who do this because they love it. And people always ask me like, Hey, I want to start a label or I want to get into the business. What piece of advice would you have for me? I said, do it because you love the music. If you really love the music and you want to help, then do it. If you're not and you just getting in because you want to get in, it's not an easy business to be in, and it's not particularly a super lucrative business to be in, so you got to do it because you love it. And when you're asking the question, I was trying to think in the back of my head if we've ever hired anybody that wasn't really a metal hat. I think the only person that I can think of as we had, it wasn't an employee necessarily, but he did all of our graphic stuff in the eighties. Really good guy. We actually, the guy who does our graphic stuff now, who is a metalhead came from him, but I don't know that we've ever hired anybody over all these years that wasn't a metalhead. First and foremost.

Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

We have one employee that's not like an all-out metalhead, however I call it the heavy music umbrella. So there's several genres of heavy music that kind of take elements from each other that are close enough. So if you're from the hardcore world for instance, or that hardcore pop ho world, like the data Remember world, to me that's close enough, enough shared elements, shared ethos that it works, but total outsider, we've never been able to make that work. I think one thing that I've paid attention to is we've had a lot of people over the years asking us, why don't we take URM into real genres? When are we going to start doing pop or country? And I mean, those genres are great for what they are, but my thinking is, well, I don't know shit about those genres. I don't have decades worth of connections and understanding and we would need to find people like myself and my partners who are the equivalent for those genres and we just don't know them.

(00:29:59):

And there's certain decisions you have to make. I'm positive it's the exact same thing at a label where for instance, years ago, Dave Otero was telling me, you got to check out this band Arc Spire. And I ignored him just because I did it, took him mentioning it five different times till I finally checked them out and I did and was blown away. It was just blown away by how great this band was and then immediately booked a nail the mix with Dave and Arc Spire, and this was before they really started to have this explosion. But it was just so obvious to me that this band is incredible. This band is next level. Absolutely. And to try to pitch to non-metal people that we should invest resources and time money into bringing something like that on now the mix. Good luck. Good luck pitching that to pop people. Only metal people will understand the value of getting behind a band like Arc Spire or something way in earlier days with their career. And I'm sure it's got to be the exact same thing at a metal label. You have to be able to see and understand the value in some of these bands or all of these bands long before the rest of the world does.

Speaker 3 (00:31:20):

Yeah, a hundred percent. We try to stay in our lane, so to speak, even though our lane's pretty wide. We have traditional metal bands, extreme metal bands, a lot of stuff we will dabble in some stuff that's a little bit different too, but we've never really had a lot of success with just straight ahead hard rock like a band

(00:31:41):

Rival Sons or something, which I love by the way, or GRE Event Fleet. But it probably wouldn't work necessarily for us because we don't have that sort of infrastructure or expertise or the radio capabilities. We were lucky enough to have a couple radio hits with K Gauge on their last album. That's because we have our distributor, the Orchard has a really great radio staff that we use, but that's not in our wheelhouse necessarily because, not because we don't understand it, but we just don't have the expertise. It's a different animal that we don't really do. So we kind of try to stay away from some of that stuff just because even though we like the music, we just don't have the infrastructure to really make it happen. So we try to do that and certainly pop country, any of that stuff is out of the world.

(00:32:27):

But what I will say though is we do try to do some different things. And the one thing that I was a bit resistant to at first was this whole synth wave thing and Dance with the Dead and Igor and Master Record. A couple of the last two are with us, and initially a couple of the employees came in and said, this stuff is really cool. You should check it out. I was like, I don't know. I don't really understand EDM music and I'm certainly not a fan of it, but I, you could feel there was something happening there. You could just feel there was this kind of underground buzz and vibe with it. And it took me a couple of minutes, but once I opened my mind, I guess a little bit to it, I was like, oh, okay, this is cool. And this certainly the bands that we deal with a little bit on the heavier side, it's different, but it's a lot different. And it's interesting, I do really like to push the boundaries and do different things, but that's never going to include anything outside of our world. It's not going to be a pop thing or a country thing or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (00:33:29):

But Igor is a perfect example actually of what I'm talking about, because as wild as they are, and they are pretty wild musically, the metal side of what they do is super legit.

Speaker 3 (00:33:41):

Well, they're all metalheads in these bands too.

Speaker 2 (00:33:44):

Yeah, it's totally obvious. Everything they do, just the metal side of it is a hundred percent real deal. And I think that that's actually exactly what I meant is you need to be able to hear those things and understand what the significance of them in a way that would be hard to explain to someone outside of the genre. Or if you were to write it down on paper, what are the elements of Igor that work? It'll make no sense, but you hear it and you just know. I think because of misunderstand this genre.

Speaker 3 (00:34:21):

Yep, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (00:34:22):

It was probably the same thing with Mr. Bungle back in the day, signing them. Well,

Speaker 3 (00:34:26):

We never signed Mr. Bal.

Speaker 2 (00:34:27):

I'm just saying whoever signed them, it must have been a similar sort of thing, just like shit's wild.

Speaker 3 (00:34:33):

Yeah, sorry. That was in the days where the whole grunge scene, that whole scene kind of took over all of metal, which I am a huge fan of, a huge fan of Alison Chains and Faith No More. In fact, we did a lot of work with Alison Chains and Faith No More in the early days, probably Faith No More than those two bands, more than we also worked with Sound Guard and a bunch of other stuff where we would do the college radio and the independent Fanzines and all this sort of stuff for the majors because the majors didn't have anybody that understood it. And I knew, and we knew, look, these bands, even though they don't want to be called Metal, and they're pretty much ushering out metal at that point, which probably needed to happen anyway, but Metal Fans would be hugely into them. And you certainly saw that with both of those bands, which they really were metal bands filled with Metalheads that just had a different take on what was going on. And certainly Mike Patton from Faith No More venturing out into the Mr. Bungle world was just, it was just such a weird, odd, different type of field, but it came from that metal background with a lot of other stuff. And of course, metalheads obviously to this day love what they're doing.

Speaker 2 (00:35:45):

Yeah, I guess because it's authentic. Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:36:39):

And these are guys like TLA, will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster to I, Madson Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:37:33):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. It's funny, I'm sure you've seen this too, in movies oftentimes where they'll have the metalhead in the movie or the metal song and it'll be written by someone who clearly doesn't listen to it. It's super obvious, super obvious. They almost never get it right.

Speaker 3 (00:38:18):

Yeah, I mean, if you don't have the background, you can't think it. There's been certain bands over the years, none that we've ever worked with, but that kind of came from not a metal background, and they tried to be a metal band. Fans see through that very easily. Same situation with stuff with movies and that sort of thing. If it's not somebody there that really knows what's going on, the fans will see through it. The mainstream people may not, but the real fans will. Of course.

Speaker 2 (00:38:44):

Yeah. What you said about sticking to your guns, I think that that is kind of what it comes down to, even if it means, like you said in the book, staying away from a band like Slipknot, if you don't trust your own gut on things, what can you trust really at the end of the day, that's kind of what you got to go with.

Speaker 3 (00:39:04):

As much as I've been doing a lot of stuff, look, I love Slip Knot and I love what they do live, and they're great guys and they're all massive metal metalheads, but just for whatever reason, it didn't connect with me necessarily, and I don't think we would've been the right spot for it anyway. But I have a great respect for them and all of those guys, and they've had obviously incredible success. But would they have that sort of success if they had signed a metal blade? Certainly not in the initial phase of it. Maybe down the road.

Speaker 2 (00:39:33):

It's important to be comfortable with saying no to things that you're not feeling, even if they're objectively good, because I feel like authenticity is kind of the, it's almost like the currency and the genre, and if you're making inauthentic choices, it leads to a bad path. And the problem being that sometimes you'll miss out on something cool. But I think it's important to kind of stay true to whatever the authentic decision is. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:40:05):

Exactly. And my philosophy on all this stuff is that we want to sign bands on Battle Blade that we feel real comfortable with, that we understand that we know we can do a good job on. And there's a lot of other bands that I love and I'm friends with that just wouldn't make sense here, but I want them to all to have success. I want everybody to have success. A lot of times it comes like, well, if we signed this band, maybe we could make a lot of money. It's never been about that at Metal, but it never will be. But I care about bands being successful and making somebody doing that. But as far as the label goes, we never make decisions based on if we think we can make money doing it or not. We do it because we love the band, we love what they're doing, and we feel that what they're doing has a chance to do well.

Speaker 2 (00:40:50):

That attitude is interesting, especially when it comes to the reissues because you do a bunch of those reissuing, a Doha record later this year, like you reissue lots of stuff. And I think that that's interesting. Do you find it at all risky to try and revive old stuff or stuff that may not have hit back then, but for whatever reason you think should get another shot? Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:41:20):

I mean, two things there, I guess. So number one, obviously we ue a lot of Metal Blade stuff because old and we have a huge catalog and there's a lot of records that I really like that haven't come out or needed to come out or all that sort of stuff. But we also do, we've done a lot. We've a lot of Roadrunner stuff, we've ed a lot of other stuff. It's just things that we feel internally at the label that we like these records and we like these bands. And if we can have the opportunity to be able to do that, we've had some success doing it. So we try to do that as much as we can. Obviously during the pandemic, that was pretty much all we did. We didn't have any new releases, so we were reissuing anything we practically could. But it is fun to do because it also gives maybe our fans that weren't familiar with other bands or as familiar with a certain record might have a chance to do it.

(00:42:10):

But it's just fun. I've been doing this for years. I mean, when we went to Warner Brothers in 19 90, 1 of the most fun things for me was going to them and saying, Hey, can we reissue any at this point, this is CDs were happening, any CDs that you guys have it that rocker metal? And they said, sure, whatever you want. Here's the key to the warehouse. See what we got. And so we did Lizzie and Alice Cooper and Deep Purple, then we did Stars and just a whole bunch of bands. And for me, as a fan of all these things, it's super fun to be able to reissue that stuff. And realistically, the whole label and the whole impetus for the label forever has just been, it's fun for me. And obviously everybody else has the label to turn people on to stuff that we like that maybe other people haven't heard or they haven't heard the right perspective or whatever. So it's always about putting out stuff that we think is cool and we just want people to hear.

Speaker 2 (00:43:06):

I think that that's one of the great things about the modern era for music. I'm sure your perspective on this is completely different than mine, but so my perspective is having been a teenager in the nineties and trying to get into music then was basically, I remember this attitude of if you're older than 25, your band doesn't matter and you have no shot at anything. And then other than the huge bands from the past, basically if you were an old band, you didn't matter. I'm talking outside of the Metallica's or Led Zeppelins or whatever. Anything just more than a few years older was just thrown away garbage. And it was kind of scary going into the music industry with those types of ideas, whereas now I feel like the age limit doesn't exist anymore. At least in metal. It just doesn't. And B, it doesn't matter when the music came out, people are going to like it if they're going to like it. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:44:20):

A hundred percent of it. Look, the nineties were interesting. A lot of really great music came out in the nineties in the underground where we had Candle Corpse and six feet under Andi and King Diamond and Meel Fate. So there's a lot of stuff that we had in the nineties that did really, really well in the underground, but people just don't remember a lot of it. But I always encourage people to go back and listen to the metal stuff that came out in the nineties. It was pretty much all overlooked, and it was a tough time to get into the music business. Everything was changing. It was becoming, the corporate end was becoming way more corporate. And then Metal was in this weird spot where they had the whole new metal thing, which I wasn't really a fan of. And you're right, if you weren't a young band with a bunch of kids in it, people are just like, you're not going to go anywhere.

(00:45:03):

You're not going to do anything. So that was probably the worst of my 40 years of doing this. The nineties would probably be the worst year for new bands trying to make something happen. But we survived it and at least brought on that whole, everything changed in the early two thousands when this whole breath of fresh air with all the metal core and all this other stuff started coming in. And then it was cool to Iron Maiden and Rush and All Rainbow and all these seventies bands because in the nineties couldn't like any of that stuff. You could only, even if you're a metal or a hard rock guy, you could only like The Cure or all this, the Smiths, all that sort of weird stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:45:42):

Yeah. So it's interesting to me when I hear people saying that they miss the way things used to be. I look at the way things are now and I realize that there's different challenges now, and maybe there's some aspects of the past that were more lucrative, however, big picture, I think it's a much better environment now, at least on the artistic side, for being able to do something like have an actual career making real music and uncompromising music. It's the best time ever for that.

Speaker 3 (00:46:15):

Yeah, and I think a big part of that is that the infrastructure is probably better now than it ever was. We have more great booking agents, more great managers, tons of really good label options, a lot of new and upcoming labels. So that kind of backdrop is what really helps because in the nineties, honestly, the booking agents and managers were horrible for the most part. I hate to say that, but it was difficult finding good people to do all of that. I mean, at one point we actually, us at Relapse who I was really close with Matt Jacobson from Relapse, and we realized that there's just not any good booking agents and we can't get all of our bands on the road because of this. So we basically start our own agency. We don't know, it's not like we're experts in it, but we're like, we have to do something here because we can't work.

(00:47:04):

And they knew a guy and we worked together. And that guy turned out to be Tim Bore, who's still around and one of the biggest agents out there now. And we didn't have that infrastructure back then. And then it's kind of all come around that whole early nineties that the one thing that I like to talk about, a little bit about that whole early two thousands thing is that the whole metal core movement, so to speak, and I hate using these metal core whatever, but it was the blending of hardcore metal. And the one thing that we never had in Metal up until that time and always was really good. I've always loved hardcore stuff from back when I followed the Boss Tones and a bunch of other bands. But the one thing that we didn't have in metal at that time was kind of the everybody's all in it for one, we're all brothers, we're all in it. We want our other bands to be successful. And that kind of attitude we didn't really have in metal. There's a lot of egos and a not a lot of people working together really well, and the hardcore attitude was just

Speaker 2 (00:48:03):

Completely

Speaker 3 (00:48:03):

The opposite of that. And a lot of the people that came into the business side of things in the early two thousands all came from that hardcore background. And that was just so refreshing to see, and most of those people still around today and extremely successful. That attitude I think had a lot to do with just how the business level of things is so much better now than it was even in the eighties, in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (00:48:29):

Well, there's an opinion I used to have that has changed, but I don't think it was inaccurate. It's just that things have changed is that I always thought that metal was its own worst enemy because of how the people treated each other, how they were so against anyone having any success. Seriously, any band getting big in the nineties, the amount of hate, it was ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (00:48:57):

You're not wrong.

Speaker 2 (00:48:58):

It was crazy. You don't really have it. I mean, the internet can be a via place for sure, but I don't think that bands are hated for being successful the same way. I think that there is a lot more of a community, a positive community now than before.

Speaker 3 (00:49:19):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And this goes all the way back to the seventies and eighties, even when you as fans back then, it's still the case now and you're going to have this happen, but as fans that discover something really early, they want it to be theirs. They don't want to see their teenage friend down the street who doesn't like metal enough wearing one of their T-shirts. And there's a couple stories that go along with that. So I remember the first one was Dee Snyder, who's a great guy and a real metalhead and obviously from Twisted Sister. And he had a great quote. They got a positive, I forget one of the records right after they became huge and they got a really grit review in the New York Times, I think it was. So he said, as soon as I saw that, I knew my career was over.

(00:50:03):

Because all of a sudden the parents are like, Hey, Johnny, this band you like, they have this really good review in the New York Times. And that ruins it because then it takes out all the being against it and pissing off your parents and all that rebellion stuff takes out of it. But in addition to that, there's also was certainly in the eighties and the nineties as well, this whole sort of attitude, especially in the metal community, that once they discovered bands, this is our band, Metallica is a great example of that. So Metallica put out Kill 'em All and started to become the Buzz was huge and they were getting a lot bigger. So then Ride the Lighting came out, which is by the way, my favorite Metallica record. But when the R lighting came out because they had an acoustic piece and it wasn't, there was a long acoustic part, and they had some songs that were a little bit more melodic. So the going phrase in the underground metal circles of 1983, when the record came out, most people that a lot, not most, I won't say most, maybe half, but about half the people, the name for that album for them was Ride the Light Bulb because it wasn't heavy anymore. Metallica sold out

Speaker 2 (00:51:20):

If only they knew what was coming up. I was just thinking actually about Metallica, what they went through that band. Obviously it goes without saying, that is impressive on multiple levels, but the thing that I think impresses me the most about them is their ability to do whatever they want regardless of what's coming at them. Because the level of hate that they've gotten, I think would cause most people to quit, but they never did. And they have this thing about them where, like you said, they make bold choices, the kinds of choices that they've made. It takes some big balls to put yourself out there like that. Whether it's an artistic decision of changing your style or putting that movie out and letting people see all that, or some of the collaborations they've done. These are very fearless type of decisions that I think weaker people. They wouldn't be able to stomach the amount of pressure and also the amount of hate that has come their way.

Speaker 3 (00:52:32):

It's interesting, obviously I've known them since before they were even a band, and the personalities have not, honestly not changed a whole lot over that whole course of time. And you have to remember that when Metallica first came out, other than the underground, they were hated by everybody. It was like, who are these guys and what is this? They've always thrived on having that sort of having to overcome all that negativity from day one. You can't do that. You can't be in a band, you can't do this, you can't do that. So they've always liked that challenge, and they do everything for themselves. They don't do anything for everybody else. They don't care. They don't care. Everybody thinks they don't care about anything. If they feel it's right, if that's what they want to do, they're going to do it. But they're also surrounded by, and people always ask me, why is Metallica so big?

(00:53:17):

There's other bands that should be as big, or so-and-so should be in the big four above them or whatever. But the one thing that you have to have to be successful in the music business, you have to have a team around you that can help you move forward. You have to have the lawyers, the managers, the agents and the record label. Everybody's going to be in the same page. And I equate it to a car. You have a car with four wheels, all four wheels are going in the same direction. You're going to go pretty fast. If one of them's flat, you're not going to go anywhere. And that's kind of the way it is in the music business. And for Metallica, they've been surrounded really probably since Ride the Lightning with phenomenal management, phenomenal road crew agents, all of them. And they've worked with all these people their entire career.

(00:54:03):

And they're some of the best people, some of the best managers and stuff out there. It's all first class. Everybody that I've ever met with, that I've ever met ever on the road with Metallica, no matter what they are doing for the Bad first class, really nice, super great, really friendly. I've never seen anybody treat anybody like an opening band or anything bad. And you talk to all the opening bands like, oh my God, they're just the best thing ever. And they're still basically the same guys. They haven't changed really much at all, and they're still metalheads at heart. You see that with the last couple records. They've really gone back to the roots and making music. That's for a band that's that, I don't want to say old, but they are that old and that huge for them to really take that dude on that last record and go back to we're going to go to basically making a record we would've made in 1984 is that's a pretty ballsy move and I'm trying to think who's ever really done that. What band's ever really had a huge, massive career and gone back to their roots and made a record. That's really good. That's kind of from what they do now, most everything, they go in a different direction, so it's really interesting. But yeah, it's fascinating and all that stuff that they've done, they've done all the Lou Reed record and the movie. I think people eventually respected them for showing all the warts, not hiding it.

Speaker 2 (00:55:29):

That's exactly it. I think that at the time when the Lou Reed record came out, I don't know a single person who had any good thoughts about it, and I know when the movie came out, everyone who saw that movie was like, whoa, I wouldn't want someone to see me in that state. But over the course of history, if you look back at their career and you look back at all these different things, it paints this picture of just being unapologetic and always sticking to their guns, which is the truest thing you can actually do regardless of what was going on at the time. Or people had this interesting perception about their haircuts in the nineties or their snare drum sound in the two thousands or whatever. There's all these things that,

Speaker 3 (00:56:18):

The haircuts are kind of funny because the story behind that, and I'm going to paraphrase it, I might not be a hundred percent accurate, but I remember when it was all happening. So that was literally the way Metallica makes records is they unlike almost any other band, could put out a record 30 days after they finish it, which nobody could do, but they don't do anymore. But back then, I remember I was in the studio when they're making the black album and they're getting down to the final mixes and they're approving the artwork. And I said, so when's this record coming out? They said, oh, in 30 days. I'm like, how are you turning on a record in 30 days? That's impossible. Like, oh, we're going to do it. And they did, but the funny thing about that whole stuff for Load was literally had this photographer, super famous photographer that they had worked with that they liked, and it was just kind of a drunken weekend where it was just like, let's do a photo shoot. Yeah, let's cut our hair out. Let's do all this sort of stuff. And the photographer's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, do it. And then it's one of those things where you go out on a night, you have too much to drink, you go, what did I do yesterday? What did I do last night? I was kind of more or less what happened with that, but then it became cool for everybody to cut their hair. So I don't know, maybe they were setting a presence way early. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:57:33):

Wow. Just to think about the idea that little drunk decisions that can have such an impact

Speaker 3 (00:57:42):

On so many people just don't care. They're not going to make a decision based on what anybody else thinks, and a lot of times they just kind of make a decision right then and there. It's like, well, this seems cool, so let's just do this and then it may work, it may not work. Snare drum kind of being one of those as well.

Speaker 2 (00:57:58):

What you just said about how some people will say, this other band should have that spot, or I heard this a lot actually recently with the Pantera reunion. Other people should have that spot other than Zach or whatever. Whenever I hear that kind of talk, I always think that it's bullshit because things work out the way they work out for lots of reasons. It's always a super complex set of factors. People don't end up in those spots by accident and they don't end up in those positions due to anybody's whims. A lot of stuff had to happen for a really long time for anyone to end up really anywhere they're at in life, regardless of what level of success. But there are no accidents with this stuff, so, so when I hear someone else should have, should have, it's just like no, they shouldn't have. The person who's got it is the person who should have it for thousands of reasons leading up to this point.

Speaker 3 (00:58:57):

Look, the Pantera thing is super controversial and I get both sides of it, but I do, I talked to Vinny about this a couple of times when he was alive and said, I understand why people would want to see some version of Pantera at this point, even without Dime, because they never got to see them. I used to be very, very much like, no, it's not the original members, yada yada, but it's just not possible anymore. And you do. I have a lot of friends, I mean, I'm old, so I've seen everybody pretty much, but I have a lot of friends who are younger that didn't get to see Pantera in the nineties, that now would love to see some sort of Pantera thing. So I get it. And I mean, look, Zach and Charlie are good friends with everybody. They're super nice guys. They're incredibly talented musicians, and they all had relationships with both Di and Vinny, and I think that was really important. I'm sure it was really important in the thinking behind is we got to get guys who have a history there who knew the guys and that sort of thing. So I'm fine either way with it. I know it's very controversial these days and I get it, but they're out there doing it, so I hope they are doing it at a high level and I hope it works for

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):

Well. That's exactly it. They're out there doing it, so they're out there doing it and the relationships involved, that's not something you can just engineer. It can't be that those decisions were taken lightly by anybody. I know they weren't

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):

A hundred percent not. It's been years

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):

And

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):

The works. There's also a lot of it is down to scheduling too. There might've been other guys that people might've thought would be better to do either of those roles, but those guys are available when they can be, and they certainly have the background to do it and the ability to do it, so it kind of works.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):

Yeah. So one last thing I want to talk to you about, which is kind of along the same lines of people who should have something but that other people get. So you were talking about how there's certain bands like Korn, like tool, like Nine Inch Nails, Ramstein, that you took an interest in and knew immediately. You just knew that there was this tiny window in which to get them, but that probably wasn't going to happen. And because it was super obvious from just seeing these bands when they were tiny, that they had whatever that thing is, whatever that thing is that makes you a superstar, those bands had it. And I'm sure that there's lots of people who would say, some other band that I know should be as famous as Korn or something or should have that spot. But fact is that you, along with millions and millions of other people, all saw the same thing in corn, all saw the same thing in Nine Inch Nails, whatever feeling it is that you had that made you think this band belongs in an arena, I want to sign this band is the exact same thing that millions of people were feeling when they bought the records or bought the tickets and went to the show.

(01:02:12):

I think that you can't fake that stuff if somebody doesn't have that happening for them. It's not because of any planned out stuff. Those types of reactions are super genuine and you can't buy them.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):

Correct. Especially bands that have long careers, like all of those bands. I'm lucky enough that I almost like a scout for a professional sports team that goes out and looks at young players and they kind of go, that guy's got it. I'm lucky enough that, and it's just merely just a gut thing. I'll see a band or this band. It's always the way we even sign anything at Metal Blade. It's like, oh, I like this. I don't care what it is. This is good. And certainly with all those bands, I saw them and thought, oh my God, these bands are amazing. And still being a small little label trying to get in early on those, the corn story is pretty funny because Mike Lia, who works at Metal Blade has been there forever. He saw them, it might've been the first or second show they ever did.

(01:03:07):

They were playing in San Diego at a convention that Mike was at. He goes, oh my gosh, I saw this band corn. They were incredible. They're doing something really different. We should go check them out. And so they were playing a small club in LA about a month later. So Mike and I went, then my friend Monte Connor, who's the Roadrunner a and r guy went as well. We were both falling all over ourselves trying to sign this band. And then by, I don't know, either third or fourth show in la, every a and r person from every major label was there. So I remember Mon and I just looked at each other and looked like, yeah, we're not getting this band, but it's fine. Again, like I said earlier, it'd be great to work with those people, but ultimately as a fan, I just want them to be successful.

(01:03:47):

And certainly all those bands we're really successful. And again, like I talked about with Metallica, they're also surrounded by good people. And again, you cannot make it in not just the metal business, but in the music business, if you're not surrounded by good people all pushing that boulder up the hill, it's not going to happen. And I learned this growing up in the seventies and all these bands that I loved, why wasn't this band bigger? Why wasn't that band bigger? I didn't know I was a young kid. I didn't understand the business. And then you get in later and I got to meet a lot of those bands. And it's always same story, bad manager, bad label, bad timing, had nothing to do with the talent of the artist to the band. It had to do with everything else. And it's kind of similar. I have friends who are actors as well, and that world's even harder to get into than the, and more messed up than the music business.

(01:04:46):

But there's so many people who have tons of talent. It's just right place, right time for them. And it's a little bit of that in this business. But I think it's more importantly that you have to be surrounded by really good people because again, all of us, the labels, the managers, the agents, we work for the band. And I always tell this to bands, you don't work for us. We work for you. So you guys have to understand what you want and watch your business. There are not a lot of great people in this world sometimes, and a lot of these bands that we all thought would be really big or had the potential work with the wrong people. And that's why it just never happened. And I think a lot of times artists will be like, oh, I just want to make the music and I don't want to deal with the rest of it.

(01:05:32):

But you can't, you just, at least one guy in the band, there's five guys in a band. If four of 'em don't do anything other make music, they don't care. But you've got one guy that can be the business guy, then that's fine. I mean, Metallica with Lars or The Stones with m Jagger, I mean every band, AC DC with Malcolm Young, every big band has one guy in the band who basically does all the business for the band and they work with everybody else, but they have the band's interests first. And you just have to do it that way.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):

I mean, you've got to be your own biggest advocate. Someone has to, you can't rely on other people for that, but if you are your own best advocate and do a great job, then you can rally people around you successfully.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):

Yeah, because also see bands, I've seen bands over the years that will blame everybody else for the lack of success. They'll blame the label, they'll blame the manager, they'll blame everybody else. And you get into why that is and they'll say, well, we just want to make music. We didn't want to deal with everything else. And it's like, oh, well, but you have to. And also, before I did the first book, I figured I should do research and read a bunch of autobiographies. And since then I'm kind of obsessed with reading all that stuff. And man, even big bands, how many of them just got so screwed over by so many people? It's kind of a miracle that a band like Black Sabbath for example, had all sorts of crazy bad managers and everybody else, the fact that they ended up being as huge as they were is a testament to how they just kind of would survive somehow after dealing with all these people. And it's a lot of those stories from, especially those bands in the seventies, the music business back then. I'm glad I got in the music business in the eighties because in the seventies it was really kind of scary. So many bands got ripped off and all that crazy stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):

Yeah. The thing is, back then, I think the record sales and the amount of dollars coming in were high enough to where there was enough money there for people to keep the train running, even if the band wasn't involved in the business so much. Now that won't fly. Exactly

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):

A hundred percent. And back then all a lot of these bands, especially the English bands, they're just working class came from nothing. Nothing. There are all eight people in one house, so when they start being successful and they start having money, they don't really care about so many of these bands and they're like, Hey, we have enough money to have a house and a car and whatever we want. We tell the managers. So they didn't pay attention to the business sort of thing until it was later. And that's kind of how it worked. And then they realized, wow, there's millions of dollars that we never saw, which is, and that's almost every band from the seventies that started out has a similar story. It's crazy,

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):

Man. The thing about band members not paying attention to the business without fail, I have met so many bands and anytime I've wondered to myself that band's good. Why didn't it work out? Or why hasn't it worked out? When I get to know them a little better, there's always something. There's either it's they're dysfunctional or they pick the wrong people to work with. There's always a reason. The only exceptions will be every once in a while something has an unexplained hit, something that just pops off and it'll pop off for a band that has a bad business set up and then lots of times that just won't last past that initial success wave. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):

It's not sustainable that way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):

For a long sustainable career, you got to get those things together basically.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):

Well, I think it's a good place to end it, but I want to thank you very much for taking the time to hang out again and just like the last book, I read this one in one sitting, which is pretty cool. I can't finish any books these days.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):

Well try to make 'em short. So three or four hours is all over with.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):

Yeah, I mean, one afternoon is all it took, which is perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):

And it's great to be working with you and doth too. That's been real fun so far.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):

Oh yeah. Well, I wanted to say thank you very much on that note. I've said it on podcasts and I know I texted it to you, but Metal Blade is actually the label that I wanted us to be signed to back in the day. It didn't work out that way back in the day, but that was always what I wanted. I remember whenever we would tour with metal blade bands, I always hear about what it was like for them. I'd be like, man, that sounds cool. That sounds like kind of situation that would work for me. I always had it in my head that it would be really, really cool.

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):

Well, it took a while, but we finally got to it, right?

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):

Yeah, it took a while. We had to make a bunch of changes on our end too. There were lots of things that had to be re-imagined in bringing it back. Basically, the broken vehicle analogy works for round one of the band, basically.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):

Yeah, I get it. I get it. But it's been fun so far, and if feel free to reach out anything thought related too.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Hopefully it remains fun.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):

Thanks and thanks for doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):

Oh man, my pleasure. My pleasure. Anytime. Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some of your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at M Academy, and of course tag our guest as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to me at al at M Academy. That's EYAL at M dot aca, DEMY. And use the subject line answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.