Anton Delost: Modern Songwriting, The Power of Collaboration, and Imposter Syndrome

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:00:08):

Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty. I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way.

(00:01:10):

All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line Answer me aal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is Anton Delost, who is a producer, songwriter, and mixer out of the Toronto area. He actually shares a studio with another URM guest, Sam Guana, and he has a resume of artists such as Hollow Coves, Silverstein Cleopat among many others. He also just signed a publishing deal with Drew Fox in The Cut, which is under BMG, which is really, really cool. If you don't know Drew, which I'm sure you do, you may know him as Wizard Blood. He's been on the Urine podcast and on Nail the Mix and is one of the most prolific and talented songwriter producers in the game. Just the fact that Anton works with him is all you need to know. This is a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Here it goes. Anton Delo, welcome to the URM Podcast. Thank

Speaker 3 (00:02:44):

You very much. I'm

Speaker 2 (00:02:45):

Excited. Thanks for being here. Of course. So you work with Sam?

Speaker 3 (00:02:48):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:02:49):

Sam Guana. It's funny, this industry is so friend and personal relationship oriented that if we were on the phone right now, it says, so you work with Sam, but I have to remember that people listening might not know which Sam I'm talking about,

Speaker 3 (00:03:06):

And there's Sam Pira and there's other Sams, so there's quite a few. Yeah, Sam and I have had the studio for six years I think together, so we actually don't work. You said I work with Sam. Unfortunately, we don't work a ton together. I mean, technically we have exact opposing schedules, unfortunately because we're really good friends. So you work in proximity? Exactly, yeah. Okay. I'd like to work with him on more stuff, but unfortunately budgets for that is tricky to come by these days for multiple producers.

Speaker 2 (00:03:37):

Yeah, that's not really something you hear about too much. I feel like back in the day, and when I say back in the day, I mean that's up for interpretation, but I mean, 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago, it was much more common to see production teams,

Speaker 3 (00:03:57):

Right?

Speaker 2 (00:03:57):

Yeah. You don't really see that very often and even at the end of my studio career, there were some production teams that wanted to rent my place out, and I always wondered how they made any money because it's not like they were recording Miley Cyrus or something.

Speaker 3 (00:04:17):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:04:17):

Exactly.

Speaker 3 (00:04:19):

For sort of this caliber of stuff. I mean, the budget just isn't there for rock music anymore. I mean, probably way up there it is, but one day, one day, one day.

Speaker 2 (00:04:30):

Well, it just kind of forces producers, engineers mixers to be good at everything, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:04:37):

Yeah, a hundred percent. It helps that you don't need a big studio anymore for a full project. I mean, God, there's so many people in, so many of my friends in LA who are doing massive records and they still, they don't even have a live room. They record vocals right beside them. They just throw headphones on and they do the whole record like that and then they might rent a drum room. Everything's amp sim, everything is virtual instruments and stuff is so good nowadays. It's kind of infuriating.

Speaker 2 (00:05:10):

I was thinking about how some people might be hearing this and Turning Red.

Speaker 3 (00:05:15):

I was one of those people for such a long time. I think we all were at a certain extent, but Sam actually started using Amp Sims more frequently than I did earlier on. He makes them work really well, and it took me a longer time to be able to use them as a primary sound guitar sound, and I still feel like I'm probably better with Guitar Amps. I think I'm quicker at dialing up a real sound, but the more I mix projects that I need to, I'm just forced to reamp with di. The more I'm just tweaking and tweaking until I just have these great, you just literally open the plugin and press my preset and it's just as good as this fricking $5,000 setup of amps cabs, mics pre-amps, and it's infuriating because I don't want to see all these things go to waste in studios, but at the same time, it's a hundred dollars plugin that does the exact same thing and it's actually insane. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:06:15):

I know that people felt like that about tape machines, and I don't think that anyone can make an argument that they're not great. Of course, yeah. Two inch tape is great. What people can make the argument though about is that, yeah, even though they're great records, these days kind of flow better without that in there. For the most part, it doesn't really make the kind of sense it used to make and stuff sounds so good now. The workarounds or the replacements sounds so good that it's okay,

Speaker 3 (00:06:49):

And even if you did want to use tape again, back to the budget thing, you need a studio that provides us a tape machine with the tape and a tech probably, and the time it takes to fix mechanical issues and it comes with baggage and there's so many, again, there's so many great plugins that do the same, not the same thing, but very similar. And you can just tweak this stuff to make it sound, maybe not exactly tape, but make it sound like you want it to tape adjacent, we'll call it

Speaker 2 (00:07:21):

Tape adjacent. Yeah. I mean, I think that the error is when people try to make something new, be like the thing that came before it, which isn't possible. One thing can't be what something else was, life doesn't work that way. You can however, find new and awesome things with new technologies and new methods of doing things, and I think that the people who have kind of accepted that are thriving a little more

Speaker 3 (00:07:53):

Big time. And I also feel like with that exact same mentality, that also goes for genres of music and songwriting and you just take something that has been great in the past and you put your own spin on it. Sorry, not just great, but great and successful in the past, and you use that as a foundation and you make it cool and relevant and new. But how Bruno Mars took funk and made it a thing again, he was kind of the first to bring that back and make it like, now it's just top 40 pop music. That's all it is, and like disco now that's with Dua Lipa and Royal Blood and God, it's just like these genres of music that were massive 30, 40 years ago are now just the music that's popular again because people took that and just put their own spin on it. And because there's been so many different genres since then, they're able to pull from this influence and this influence, and now it's just a new type of music, but has that og, whatever the genre was. When

Speaker 2 (00:09:01):

Artists try to recreate something from the past down to every nuance, usually not always, there's a couple that pull it off, but in general, when that's attempted, the public interprets it like a tribute act or something.

Speaker 3 (00:09:23):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (00:09:23):

Even if it's not a cover band, it's looked at as not entirely serious in a weird way. Even if they are totally serious, I think the public has a hard time accepting it because it's almost stereotypically something from another era. I think when people incorporate great influences from the past and like you said, put their own spin on things and create something new, that's when I think it works. And then you'll see elements from old genres that still work being, I guess in the public consciousness.

Speaker 3 (00:10:00):

Agreed. Now that you say that, I don't know personally, maybe I just can't think of any, but any acts that are actually doing what you're saying, really trying to replicate that stuff that are doing well. Greta Van Fleet. Yeah, that's the one that came to mind.

Speaker 2 (00:10:13):

I mean, they basically sound like Led Zeppelin.

Speaker 3 (00:10:15):

Oh yeah. It's the same band

Speaker 2 (00:10:16):

Pretty much.

Speaker 3 (00:10:16):

Yeah, and it's so funny, I personally haven't seen this, but I was talking to somebody I was working with recently and they were like, when they're asked in interviews, obviously you guys are, you're really pulling from Led Zeppelin. That must be your number one influence. They'll deny it and they're like, oh no, we're actually really big Aerosmith fans or whatever, and it's like, I almost feel like because it's so obvious, it's insane how obvious it is. So owning up to it I feel like would just be more genuine. And if they were like, we love Led Zeppelin. Yeah, that's our number one influence list, that's exactly what we're striving for. So any Led Zeppelin fans, hell yeah, come to us. We're the new Led Zeppelin or whatever. I feel like if you just owned up to that, it would have more merit could be wrong though.

Speaker 2 (00:10:58):

However, for all the hate they, they are very successful. Of

Speaker 3 (00:11:01):

Course. Yeah. I

Speaker 2 (00:11:02):

Mean I would consider them pulling it off. The level of success that they have does count for me as pulling it off, but it is interesting. I have a hard time believing that led Zeppelin's not their favorite band.

Speaker 3 (00:11:16):

Of course,

Speaker 2 (00:11:17):

I have a hard time believing it.

Speaker 3 (00:11:18):

Yeah, I mean maybe. I don't know. One of my friends was telling me this, so I think that would be hilarious if that was true, if they deny that. But

Speaker 2 (00:11:26):

At the same time though, it is entirely possible that this just happens to be what their unique chemistry, those four people or five, I think, I don't know, that group of people getting together, their chemistry put together creates something that's Led Zeppelin. I know that there's for instance, only so many different types of vocal sounds out there. I mean, every vocalist has their own unique thing, but it's almost like if you hear enough vocalists, you can start to categorize them to some degree. There's only so many different, I guess, archetypes or whatnot, and I do feel like lots of the time it's not that people are trying to imitate something. They have the same exact tendencies. For instance, Mike Patton from Mr. Bungo and Feno Moore was hugely influential and lots of people tried to imitate him, but then there were also vocalists who just had a similar kind of timur and probably similar influences as him that got accused of being my pattern. I felt like I could tell when they were and when they weren't, and I think that sometimes people just sound the same or sound similar because there's a lot of people out there making music. It just stands to reason that there's going to be people who kind of have the same thing going on.

Speaker 3 (00:12:54):

Also subconscious. There's people I've worked with that have been so heavily influenced by Blink 180 2 that they just inherently sound like Tom DeLong. Their vowels just sound like Tom DeLonge because they just literally grew up listening to Blink since they were eight years old or whatever. So they do the exact their whole lives, that's who they listen to, so it's not like they were maybe trying to sound like him, but if that's your number one influence, you might just subconsciously gravitate towards making those same vowel sounds or whatever.

Speaker 2 (00:13:28):

Well, that's speaking with an accent, the pop punk accent.

Speaker 3 (00:13:32):

Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:13:33):

For sure. Is that what it's called?

Speaker 3 (00:13:35):

Well, it's the Tom DeLong. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:13:38):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It is so in the genre that it is almost as if they're speaking in an accent. They grew up around

Speaker 3 (00:13:47):

Well, and it's like the butt rock, the hero. It's the same thing, and now it's like, Lord does it and grandson, they all have a similar way of pronouncing. It's sort of that alt T pop vibe where it sounds like they also have an accent, but it's almost sounds subtly like Caribbean at times. I think the one, if you were to hear it, but Lord does it all the time.

Speaker 2 (00:14:15):

I feel like I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (00:14:17):

I think it's 21 pilots also do it. You'd know it to hear it, but yeah, it's very like hip right now. A lot of Toronto guys are doing it.

Speaker 2 (00:14:24):

Do you think that they're trying to, I'm sure some people are, but it just is what they do.

Speaker 3 (00:14:29):

Yeah, I think they hear it that is popular and they go, oh, if I just start singing this, it'll put me into that world.

Speaker 2 (00:14:36):

When you're working with bands that are idolizing or in a certain genre, how do you determine the difference between something that I guess is them trying to be in a genre versus just doing what comes naturally or does it even matter as long as it's good?

Speaker 3 (00:14:54):

That's a tough one because the latter is definitely true. It kind of doesn't matter unless it's really good. Me personally, I don't want to listen to something and hear that they're trying to do something else, so obviously now I don't think I've worked with a ton of artists that that's an issue, and at the same time, I'm now working with a lot of artists that are either writing for radio or writing for a specific, I've worked so long, I've worked with artists that are just writing for the sake of writing good songs, and now I'm getting to the point where we're writing for singles, we're writing for radio, we're writing for popularity. Not that that's a bad thing either.

Speaker 2 (00:15:32):

It's a mindset though.

Speaker 3 (00:15:33):

It's a mindset and you have to follow certain formulas and that kind of stuff. It doesn't really mean you don't have to sing that sing anything in particular. But yeah, I think it doesn't matter unless it strikes me as an issue. If I hear something and I'm like, it just sounds try hard. I think that's when I would address it. But if it just sounds like it would fit on the radio or whatever, then screw it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:57):

Then it sounds like it would fit on the radio.

Speaker 3 (00:15:58):

Exactly. I tend to think about that stuff a little less than I used to. Also, I used to be more bothered as a songwriter. I used to be way more bothered by if anything sounded like anything else, and I get so analytical with core progressions and melodies that I start seeing the melodies in my head and then I as notes or as even combinations of notes and then I go, oh, you know what? That's the same combination of notes as this other song. We have to change it, and when nobody would even bat an eye at it and started working with my good friend Drew Faulk, who I'm sure was on this.

Speaker 2 (00:16:33):

Yeah, we've had him on the podcast and on nail the mix, drew Faulk, AKA Wizard Blood.

Speaker 3 (00:16:38):

Yeah, that's right. People

Speaker 2 (00:16:39):

That don't know, he's great, by the way. He's

Speaker 3 (00:16:41):

Amazing and an amazing person. We started working together a lot in a writing capacity. He actually signed me to his new publishing company in The Cut. He started really showing me that it doesn't matter as long as it's a good song. Normy is, as I like to call them, just normal music listeners who aren't a part of the music industry in any capacity. They don't think about that stuff. All they want is a song that they can either dance to or that they get an emotional attachment to or whatever. They don't care. They just want to like it. They just want to like it. I think because we're artists as songwriters or producers or musicians or whatever, there's so much emotion and physical attachment that goes into writing a song or creating something that you want it to be unique and you analyze it so much, which is good to a certain extent, but you have to look at things with a bigger lens and go, nobody cares. Nobody cares. Dumb it down.

Speaker 2 (00:17:39):

Well, I think that also that's not talking down to people or having lowered expectations or thinking in a condescending way about the audience. Some people might suggest, I think that it's just being real about what people want out of music. If you're not in music, if you don't make it, then what difference does it make to you what chord progression is in there? That's what I mean.

Speaker 3 (00:18:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:18:05):

All you care about is do you like it or not? Do you want to skip it or listen to it? The end.

Speaker 3 (00:18:11):

There's certain genres that call for insane originality and complexity and technical stuff, but I think overall, if people can just get emotionally attached to a song and sing the melody in their head, or if they have a lyric that calls out to them, even if it's in another song, it doesn't matter as long as it's good to them, and I am sort of preaching this because it's something I've been trying to work on in my songwriting where don't get caught up on that kind of stuff because it really, I brought up so many times in sessions if I'm writing with somebody, I go, oh, this really reminds me of this, or, oh, wasn't this used in this? And they're often, I don't care. It's our song. It's a different song. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:19:00):

I mean, it's one thing if they were really ripping it.

Speaker 3 (00:19:04):

No, and it's not that kind of situation.

Speaker 2 (00:19:06):

So I've been in a situation like that where it was with an artist that actually is pretty successful, where they were literally ripping riffs. It made me very uncomfortable. They were ripping riffs from different songs. That'd be like, okay, this is the slipknot part, and would literally just take a riff. This is the rammstein part, literally just take a riff. This is the Manson part. Literally just take it. It was super blatant and it bothered me, but then shit got really big and the audience didn't care. Exactly. It

Speaker 3 (00:19:42):

Kind of proved what you're saying. There's a point, but overall it's like, yeah, 99.9% of people don't care. They just, and you know what? At the end of the day, so much music is made and so many things are going to be repeated, and that's just the way it is. And even massive songs that get really, really massive, like mainstream, massive, and they get sued by, or no, they don't get sued, but it becomes known that did they rip this other massive song off? There's been so many artists that have come out and the artist whose song was apparently ripped off, they'll come out and they go, oh, it's fine. I get that. It was probably subconscious. It Happens. That happened with Jimmy World and Kelly Clarkson. There was a Kelly Clarkson song that sounded so much like the middle. It was to me, it was insanely blatant. Jimmy World is my all time favorite band. I can't remember what song it was, but it was like verse and pre chorus and chorus were so, or maybe not the pre chorus, but multiple sections were very similar to that song and Jimmy World came out and they were like, all good. It happens, and maybe he was subconscious. Whatever, whatever. It's your song. It's a different song. Who cares?

Speaker 2 (00:20:52):

Also, it might not even be subconscious in some cases. It might also just be Chance.

Speaker 3 (00:20:58):

Yep, that's right.

Speaker 2 (00:20:59):

Millions of people write music. There's millions of combinations of notes and feels and chord progressions, and it just makes sense to me that some stuff is going to be similar.

Speaker 3 (00:21:12):

Yeah, no, absolutely. Especially in pop, there's only so much you can do to escape mainstream stuff in Pop, and I think it's amazing when an artist comes out and does it differently, like Billie Eilish, I think Billie Eilish did it incredibly when they started using

Speaker 2 (00:21:32):

She's great

Speaker 3 (00:21:32):

Harmonic minor stuff that sounds Middle Eastern in pop music and it's like, God, that is hell. Yeah, that is unreal.

Speaker 2 (00:21:39):

Haven't heard it done quite so well since Pharrell was doing that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:21:44):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:21:45):

I mean maybe there's been some other ones since,

Speaker 3 (00:21:46):

Or Justin Timberlake too.

Speaker 2 (00:21:48):

Yeah, yeah. Well, didn't they work together?

Speaker 3 (00:21:50):

Did they? Yeah. What song was that?

Speaker 2 (00:21:52):

I don't remember, but I feel like Pharrell was all over that early two thousands pop

Speaker 3 (00:21:58):

And there

Speaker 2 (00:21:58):

Was a lot of Harmonic minor stuff in there. You started to hear it on when Stefani, and then you'd hear it on Britney Spears and you hear it on Justin Timberlake, and it's like, I like how this dude thinks.

Speaker 3 (00:22:09):

You got to think Max Martin was probably behind that too,

Speaker 2 (00:22:13):

Probably

Speaker 3 (00:22:13):

Because I think he was in his prime around them with those artists and yeah, he must've been also still killing it. Max Martin.

Speaker 2 (00:22:20):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:22:21):

Insane

Speaker 2 (00:22:22):

Freak. Yeah, freak of nature. Basically. When you were saying that especially in pop, it's hard to not sometimes sound like something else. The first thing that came to mind was like, what about metal? Yeah. Oh yeah, big time. It's amazing to me in heavy music that there are so many sub genres and unique identities because when you get down to it, the basic building blocks, and I mean everything from pop punk to black metal, everything that to me is under the heavy music umbrella, is basically built from the same exact identical building blocks, at least sound wise. I mean, palm muting, cliquey kicks, stuff like that. I mean, some people have less palm muting or their kicks are less cliquey. Some people's drum beats are faster, some people's vocals are more aggressive or less aggressive. Some have higher gain, lower gain, but pretty much they're all cut from a very similar cloth, and it's kind of amazing that within that there's so much variation and so much room for unique artistry.

Speaker 3 (00:23:36):

Yeah. Well, what I think is a huge contributor to I think uniqueness in those genres is dynamics. I think if you build dynamics in, because the foundation of that music is aggression in pop, punk and hardcore and metal and stuff, you want it to be loud and you want it to hit hard, and you want it to make you pumped or angry or whatever you want it to do, which ultimately, even if you're

Speaker 2 (00:24:02):

Sad about your girlfriend breaking up with you, it's still angry in pop punk.

Speaker 3 (00:24:08):

Yeah, exactly. And that all comes from loudness really at the end of the day. So I think adding dynamics in to any of those genres that you mentioned is huge, and obviously it doesn't touch on the types of scales and how cliquey the kick is and how many palm mutes. Well, maybe it is how many palm mutes you have.

Speaker 2 (00:24:30):

I mean, it matters.

Speaker 3 (00:24:32):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:24:33):

Definitely. I mean, whether or not there is even a key makes a difference too, because a lot of those styles of music aren't even in a key. They're just in some weird chromatic shit.

Speaker 3 (00:24:47):

Yeah. I think you probably know more about that stuff than I do. I'm not in that world as much.

Speaker 2 (00:24:52):

You are enough in it, in my opinion, to know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I've definitely been on the more extreme end of it. I still consider the stuff that you work on under that umbrella.

Speaker 3 (00:25:03):

It's fun. I think using different scales other than minor pentatonic or whatever in just rock music, I love adding a different flavor at some point in the song to be like, oh, that made it feel different. That now is a different vibe to me than the rest of the song, just because you added one extra note or whatever. I absolutely love that. Yeah, I already mentioned them, but Royal Blood, the new royal blood stuff is just absolutely mind blowing. Have you heard the new record Typhoons?

Speaker 2 (00:25:33):

No, but I'm familiar with them and I like them. They've got riffs.

Speaker 3 (00:25:36):

Oh, it's riffs for days, and actually massive Led Zeppelin when you break it down. Their riffs are very similar to Led Zeppelin and their melodies and stuff, but the new record is so disco and they just somehow took disco and made it like stank face rock fuzzy, almost queens of the Stone Age vibe. That's cool. Mixed with disco. Oh, God, it's so cool. But yeah, they're one of those bands that they use. They'll use tons of chromatic notes and you don't even bat an eye at it. You're just somehow that works, and I don't know why

Speaker 2 (00:26:09):

I think that this whole you use theory or not. Question is interesting. I think that it's a question or a topic that I think can get very, very stale because people will say, well, you got to know the rules to break the rules, which I don't buy that for a second. No rules. It's just music. But the one thing that I do think is really fascinating about that is when it matters and when it doesn't, because like you're saying, there's these artists that, okay, so they'll have a chorus that's in a key with a great chord progression, and then they'll have sections that are in no key with weird chromatic shit, and it all just works. Or you'll hear a soundtrack where it's just moving minor chords around, and it's not in any key. It's just mean black metal bands do the same thing where they'll just sit on a minor chord and then move it up a minor third and then down a half step, and then up another minor third or something.

Speaker 3 (00:27:10):

Well, here's the thing. I think there are key, there's a mathematical configuration to all of that. There is somewhere, if you're good enough at music and you're good enough at theory, it makes sense for a reason that I think very little people can understand, but it makes sense because look, music is emotional. That's all it's meant to do. It's meant to invoke emotion in you when you listen to it, and most people don't know why, but some people will either know how to manufacture this because they know theories so well, like a Jacob Collier, they'll know so much about music. It's like physics to them, or they'll maybe come up with something similarly without any of that knowledge. They go strictly off emotion, and obviously that's getting into the way more technical side of things, but people do that with pop too. I've written with people who are so ridiculously good at coming up with catchy melodies and hooks and can't play an instrument, and they'll present a song to me by saying, this is the song that I wrote. I want you to help me produce it or write chords around or whatever, and they'll just sing a full song acapella and go, okay, can you put chords to it? That blows my mind. I'm not like that. I need a structure to sing on top of or to write melodies on top of.

Speaker 2 (00:28:35):

Yeah, I don't understand that either, but I want to go with something that you just said about how even that stuff that is weird, well, weird on paper isn't actually weird because there's an equation to it somewhere. There is a scale for it. There is a key. Exactly. It's just not the standard key, and so I just got the thought that maybe this stuff that does work really, really well, but isn't part of traditional theory. Maybe that's the stuff that got omitted back in the day because it was too dark or too something or would inspire too much of a response, which actually, if you know about the history of a lot of the music rules, a lot of 'em were based on keeping things even keeled and not letting the devil in basically. For real. It could be that some of these more, I guess altered or adventurous or non-traditional keys or chord progressions that you just don't hear in older music, you don't see in traditional theory textbooks. It could be that that stuff was just not allowed once upon a time for whatever reason, but now that we don't have those kinds of rules governing music in most places, you're not going to get executed for the music that you're write. It gives us the freedom to push further into where we naturally want to go with it, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:29:57):

Yeah, and look, I absolutely love that kind of ambition and risk taking in music. I think it's fantastic to, let's say if it's pop or rock or whatever, more traditional type of music, if you can add anything in there that's a little bit more interesting and a little bit more risk taking, I think that's amazing. Every time I hear an artist do that, I'm like, hell yeah, that is what, maybe it didn't pay off, but I think the fact that you just tried something different is what's going to lead to success, and maybe at a certain point,

Speaker 2 (00:30:36):

Well, it didn't pay off this time.

(00:30:38):

That doesn't mean it won't pay off in the future. I think that, I guess one of the risks that you take as an artist really is any sort of creator. I actually think it's all kind of the same, whether you're creating music or visual art or a company or inventions. It's all kind of the same. It comes from the same kind of place. But I think that the risk that a lot of artists or creators have to face if they care about this, and not all do, but I think most do, is not knowing if this thing that they feel really, really strongly about matters

(00:31:17):

At all. And I think that, yeah, you have a minority of creators who just create for the sake of creation and honestly couldn't give a fuck less what anybody thought of them. But I think that that's super rare, and most people who say that are either overtly lying or just don't know themselves that well because a human nature to want approval. So it's this huge risk to push towards something risky or different or outside the box and knowing full well that it could just fall flat on its face. But taking those risks I think are what lead to the next great thing, so kind of just got to go with it.

Speaker 3 (00:32:04):

I think there's a happy medium there too. I think you're talking more about an extreme, maybe avant-garde musicians that just literally don't care and just try anything. But I think to me, that's more of a mindset to have, and maybe that's not the end result, but at least if you had in the process you had that mindset of let's try anything and see what sticks, and maybe there's something that we never dreamed of that would make it in this pop song or in this rock song that somehow works and we wouldn't have got there if we didn't try it. I can't remember who it was. It was like Andrew Sheps or something. I can't remember some producer who said, if he's ever in a session, never say no. At least try it because one,

Speaker 2 (00:32:52):

I don't know if you heard it on this podcast or not, I've done so many that it's hard to remember, but one of those big dogs said exactly that it could have been him,

Speaker 3 (00:33:01):

And it was a quote I saw. I feel like that is valid on so many levels. For one, I think the biggest thing is morale in the studio. I think

(00:33:11):

Having an even playing field, even if I was in that situation, which I am constantly, and there are ideas that are floating around and somebody is really excited about an idea and when they present it, and in my head I'm immediately, I mean, I've done this for a really long time. Immediately I'm like, that's not going to work. You know what, just humor them or just say, well, it might conflict with the whatever, but let's just try it. You never know. I'm not perfect. I might be wrong. Let's just try it. And I think there's so many producers that shoot down ideas or even fellow band members or whatever, that'll shoot down ideas so quickly that you almost lower the ceiling of how many risks you can take because,

Speaker 2 (00:34:01):

And it's a fine line. As a producer, I remember that line. And also as an artist going to producers, I remember how I would feel when my stuff was shot down, especially when I knew that they didn't understand the idea completely. I felt differently if I knew they understood it and then gave me a reason for why, no, the arrangement's bad or something, there's too much stuff going on in this range. Write it better. I can deal with that. If they just didn't understand the idea and shot it down, it would fucking piss me off.

Speaker 3 (00:34:40):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (00:34:41):

I would hate working with them, but I'm thinking being on the other side, or even in a company setting where you have employees who present ideas, sometimes you hear their ideas and you want to create an environment where people feel like they matter because they do matter, and you want them to feel like their ideas can become something in this world and that it's a great thing. But sometimes you hear ideas and you just know.

Speaker 3 (00:35:12):

You just know, yeah, it's

Speaker 2 (00:35:13):

Not going to work. You haven't thought this through the way I have, or I already tried this five years ago

Speaker 3 (00:35:19):

And exactly,

Speaker 2 (00:35:20):

And I'm not trying to be that guy, but this idea, there's 8 million reasons for now, but it's a fine line because the morale thing matters too. You don't want to waste resources or time on a session. Also, you've got a deadline. You don't want to go down stupid paths, but at the same time, you could be going down a stupider path by killing someone's morale and not letting them at least see for themselves.

Speaker 3 (00:35:50):

Yep. No, absolutely. And I think the other thing is, and I briefly touched on it, was I'm not perfect. I might think I am 99.9% sure that this idea is not going to work in my head, but then you try it and then you know what? Maybe it doesn't work, but maybe it gives me an idea for something else that's even a step above what we originally had. You know what I mean? I feel like that's the key to collaboration is not the more cooks in the kitchen, but the more ideas coming from the people who are contributing, the more ideas the better, especially in a songwriting setting, because just if you're doing it right, these ideas are just transforming, the more they bounce back and forth into a real collaboration of two or three or four people, that is becoming an idea that one person couldn't have come up with.

Speaker 2 (00:36:41):

Yeah, it's funny. Well, I don't believe in the popular idea, but it's like a music industry myth, but you also see it when genius CEOs or something are turned into mythical figures. There's this idea that these people do it themselves,

(00:37:00):

Not that they do it in intense collaboration with other people, and if you think about it in terms of the music industry, there was a lot of PR behind that idea. There'd be entire documentary shows behind the music or Rolling Stone articles or all this bombardment of the focal point person, like say Nine Inch Nails or something with a Trent Resner where, I mean, he's had his partner the whole time. I mean, he's a brilliant, innovative dude, but it's never just been him, at least not in the entire time that he's been famous. It hasn't been just him, and it never is just one person. It's always, always some sort of collaboration. There just typically happens to be one person that's more photogenic or more charismatic or the visionary, whatever it is, or combination of those traits

Speaker 1 (00:38:01):

That

Speaker 2 (00:38:01):

Just make sense to push for business reasons. But in reality, it's always a collaboration and it's important for people trying to make things. It's important for them to understand that.

Speaker 3 (00:38:12):

Yep. No, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:38:14):

I'm sure you've dealt at some point, or maybe not with artists who did not understand the intense collaborative nature of actually doing this stuff at a high level.

Speaker 3 (00:38:27):

Oh my God, all the time. I mean, there's always one major contributor to whatever, it's a band or a duo or whatever. I feel like there's very rarely an equal playing field in terms of songwriting, and sometimes you can just tell that there's this vibe in the studio, the people who don't even open their mouths because either they don't want to and they're just fine with the leader of the captain of the ship just going leading it, or they just feel like they can't, and maybe that's because they're on a very rudimentary level of music or whatever we we're making, and maybe it's not right for them to speak up.

Speaker 2 (00:39:13):

Maybe they're just a supporting character in the movie.

Speaker 3 (00:39:16):

Exactly. And that works sometimes too. Every now and then I'll get a vibe in the studio that one person is really the captain, and it's tough to get everybody involved when I think there are other people in the room that have valid ideas. So anyways, I think collaboration, especially in rock music, I think it has a long ways to go in terms of people feeling like they can collaborate, even multiple artists who aren't in the same band, let's say. I feel like in hip hop and pop, it's just commonplace for people to want to collaborate with each other and have writing sessions that they're just writing a song for nothing, and then maybe it becomes some massive song, or maybe it becomes this person's song or the other person's song. But I feel like it's so typical for people to want to get together and collaborate and in rock music that it's much less common.

(00:40:06):

And I feel like there's a long ways to go before, and you're seeing it a little bit more these days, and I think it's really cool how now a lot of rock albums are featuring a lot of different people. I think that's awesome. Obviously co-writes have always been a thing, but it's so nice to see rock albums that have features for half the album because I mean, that's hip hop and that's pop people seeing artists collab together. I think that's just human nature. You want to see a cool, I mean, I think that's a big reason why people fighting literally boxing or MMA, they like seeing two forces come together and make something special. I feel like I would love to, actually, that's a huge reason why Drew started in the Cut Publishing. He wanted in the rock world, more collaboration between having a circle of people who can really bounce ideas off each other and just like they do in pop or hip hop or country for that matter.

Speaker 2 (00:41:07):

Do you think that part of it in heavier music is there's very unequal skill sets? And I don't mean in that people have different skill sets. I mean that you'll get a band kind of like you said, where there's a person or two who have all the skills and then other people that just, well, you didn't say this part. I'm saying this part. Other people who maybe they're cool, maybe they're the ones who socialize or

Speaker 3 (00:41:36):

Maybe

Speaker 2 (00:41:37):

They just got grandfathered in or something,

Speaker 3 (00:41:39):

Or they just want it to be in a band.

Speaker 2 (00:41:41):

Yeah, there's a lot of that going on and nobody's going to want to collaborate with those people and think that also for the people who lead the bands, knowing that that's kind of what's out there, it maybe turns them off to the idea in the first place. They're probably going to go nowhere.

Speaker 3 (00:41:59):

It's true. I mean, I feel like when bands started, when groups started, I feel like obviously everybody had to know how to play music way, way back. Everybody had to know how to play music well, right?

Speaker 2 (00:42:12):

Well enough. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:42:13):

Well enough. And then it started to be like one person had this vision, so they brought other people along to start playing the songs with them. I think that happened a lot. And then you get to a Nirvana where Kurt was just the vision behind it all, I think, and they didn't really know what they were doing. They just got in a garage and started playing music until they liked it. And that happens, and that's so common now, and I think a lot of the time with pop music, pop music is so, I mean, a lot of it is so musically complex without it, you realizing it and you really have to know what you're doing to write an amazing song that can be appreciated by the masses. With Metal, I feel like you really have to know what you're doing to be successful in that genre because so many bands that are trying to do the exact same thing, so you have to be doing it extraordinarily well.

(00:43:12):

But a lot of that comes with people just wanting to be in a metal band and they start out and they go, oh, I can play Power chords and drop d. I just have to put my finger on the whole fret. Often they all grow while being in that band, and they all grow as musicians, and it just becomes this amazing growth as a full band. But a lot of times those musicians just weed themselves out, and there's one or two people in that band that really were the driving force all along. And again, like in Pop, there's generally one person that is that driving force, and that's all it needs really. I mean, you don't really need a band when you're creating.

Speaker 2 (00:43:53):

No. They just have good collaborators that help bring this stuff to life. Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock Loose OPEC Shuga, bring Me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:44:50):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster to Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering, low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to M Academy to find out more. So how did you get hooked up with Drew?

Speaker 3 (00:46:09):

So I have a good friend, Alex Biro. He was in this band, selfish Things. He was managed by my now manager, Andy Snape. Man. The first time

Speaker 2 (00:46:19):

That I had an email exchange with Andy, I got confused because he's English, and I was like, is this like a typo? Am I talking to Andy Snee? Nope. I'm sure that happens a lot.

Speaker 3 (00:46:33):

Yeah, he was based out of LA at the time, and Alex said, I mean, he was singing my praises, as he always does. He's a beautiful human, and he was saying, you should really meet up with this guy, Anton. He was telling Andy that I went to LA once and we had lunch and we were just, I think just getting to know each other. I was really trying to go out to LA three or four times a year and just expand my circle of friendships and relationships there. It's a smart move. Yeah. God, for anyone listening, travel and just expand your network, I think that is the most important. That is led to easily led to my most successful projects and relationships.

Speaker 2 (00:47:16):

Same. And I used to do that all the time, was go to LA almost quarterly

Speaker 3 (00:47:23):

For

Speaker 2 (00:47:23):

Years.

Speaker 3 (00:47:23):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:47:24):

Even if there was no agenda, I'd create an agenda. The agenda was go there.

Speaker 3 (00:47:29):

Exactly. And what I find is you end up meeting with more people and meeting more people than you would in the town that you're based because you don't think about doing it in the place that you live. Let's use Toronto for instance. There's so many people that still have never been to the CN Tower, and the first thing you do if you're vacationing to Toronto, you go to the touristy thing and you make a point of doing the things in the city that you need to do. But when you live somewhere, you just get complacent and you just sort of hang with the circle that, and I mean, maybe it's not like that in LA or Nashville, but I know in Toronto, I've lived in, well in Ontario my whole life and in Toronto for six years, I met more people and more, I guess a higher caliber of music industry people in LA and the first two trips than I did in living in Toronto for six years. And I don't think it's because there are more, I mean there probably are more, but I think it was the point of forcing myself to go to that place and just meet as many people as you possibly can and get introduced to as many people as you possibly can. You don't really do that. I find when you're just living somewhere and you're just complacent, I find take it for

Speaker 2 (00:48:47):

Granted.

Speaker 3 (00:48:47):

You take it for granted. Yeah. Anyways, back to Drew and Andy. So I met with him. He was managing Drew at the time, and he said, oh, you should really meet Drew. I feel like you guys would get along. And I ended up having lunch with Drew, maybe that trip or maybe the next trip down. And yeah, we just shot this shit and he's an amazing guy, and he said, he actually mentioned to me that he's starting this publishing company, sort of a wing of BMG that's mostly focused on rock music and sort of rock adjacent stuff. I think there's lot's been a lot of emo rap and stuff that's with hip hop right now. They're using so much guitar and so much they're taking influence from pop, punk and rock and stuff so much that it's actually been really beneficial for us. But yeah, when you started really taking this in the Cut thing and making it a reality, he asked me if I wanted to be a part of it.

(00:49:41):

Of course, I accepted. And so we've basically, I think I signed it the beginning of 2020 or March of 2020 or something like that. So it's been really cool because we've worked with a lot of cool artists. I mean, he always does, but it's cool, basically having a circle of people that we really trust to float ideas around and collaborate with and that kind of stuff. I mean, you don't need a publishing company to be able to do that. You can do that with your friends and whoever you trust, but it's awesome that it's coming from ultimately BMG and having really great artists to be connected with to start.

Speaker 2 (00:50:18):

Well, it makes it more real.

Speaker 3 (00:50:20):

It does. Yeah, exactly. When there's one person really actually having great connections, it's tougher to do when you're sort of all on the same playing field and there's no particular person that is getting great connections to share, it's awesome that Drew has been able to do that with us. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:50:39):

That's great. I mean, kind of just back to what you said, the whole idea of putting yourself where the opportunity is and making yourself expand your network is so crucial. It really is so crucial. Just about every good thing that's ever happened to me in music has come from that.

Speaker 3 (00:50:58):

Yeah. I mean, I don't doubt it. And of course, you're putting yourself out there and it can be nerve wracking. It could be risky to fly to a city and you don't really know anyone, and you might have zero ways to get in touch with people, but you can make that happen. One person you go, or you just want it hard enough and you go knock on somebody's door. And I've heard stories where that's how you do it. I mean, this band I worked with Cleopat, they literally, I mean, it's a slightly different case. They're a band, but they mailed a Allie Hagen Dorf a demo.

Speaker 2 (00:51:40):

I'm not sure I know who Ally Hagen is

Speaker 3 (00:51:43):

The head of rock at Spotify.

Speaker 2 (00:51:45):

Okay. I should know who Ally Hagen Dorf is.

Speaker 3 (00:51:48):

Yeah. She's like the maker of bands these days.

Speaker 2 (00:51:51):

Got it. Alright.

Speaker 3 (00:51:52):

Rock bands. Yeah. If she champions you and puts you on a playlist, it's exactly what happened with Cleo and they just absolutely blew up from that. So yeah, she's amazing. But basically they mailed her a demo, if I recall correctly. They mailed her a demo pretending to be a fan and said, you've got to check out this band. They're amazing. They're from this small town, Coberg, Ontario. Nobody knows 'em, but they're going to be the next big thing. And she checked it out and loved it and had no idea it was the band themselves doing that. That also sounds like something that you would talk about and would never work.

Speaker 2 (00:52:28):

I know. I mean, we've all heard that story about the band using a fake management company's letterhead back in the day,

Speaker 3 (00:52:37):

But it takes that initiative, and that's obviously just an example, but it takes that kind of initiative to really put yourself out there, whether you're an artist or a songwriter or a producer or a mixer or whatever. But people want to see that you care a ton and that you have the ambition. And I feel like if you're hungry enough, you can make it happen. And I think traveling is so crucial, like you were saying, try just go, just do it. Nike,

Speaker 2 (00:53:03):

I mean, is that basically what you did just show up in la?

Speaker 3 (00:53:06):

Yeah, I mean I knew a couple people.

Speaker 2 (00:53:09):

So just started with what you knew or who you knew? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:53:12):

It expanded like crazy. I think. Actually I just went to work with an artist, actually, Corey Wells just went to work with him, and while I was there, I think I told one of my friends back home who's a manager, rich. I was like, yeah, I'm in LA for the week. And he is like, oh, lemme put you in touch with this person. Got in touch with them. We went out for lunch with them. They went, oh, let me put you in touch with this person. Went for lunch with them also. Maybe they were nobodies, who cares? You're just making relationships. You have no idea where they'll go. And the worst thing that will happen is you'll meet somebody and have lunch with them and maybe nothing happens from it. And that happened a couple times, but you know what? People really notice when you're just trying to network and you're just trying to, and not necessarily just network, but make friendships. I think it's so important. But yeah, really I knew I think one or two people there when I went.

Speaker 2 (00:54:08):

Yeah, I mean, if you're not going to put yourself out there because a few of the meetings might go nowhere, you've already kind of lost, in my opinion. No,

Speaker 3 (00:54:19):

Absolutely. I

Speaker 2 (00:54:20):

Mean, I don't think it's a numbers game, but there is some truth to the fact that the more of those shots you take, the more things are going to work out. But then also by that same exact token, there's going to be more pointless meetings. It just, that's what's going to happen. But the thing too, with doing that over and over and over again is most of the big success that I've had has been through relationships that are longstanding.

Speaker 3 (00:54:50):

Sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:54:50):

They didn't start necessarily with any project. Some did, but not all. Some just started as like, I'm in la, let's have lunch.

Speaker 3 (00:55:00):

Yep,

Speaker 2 (00:55:00):

Exactly. Like 12 years

Speaker 3 (00:55:02):

Ago. Exactly. And I mean exactly what happened with my friend Alex Biro, who I did an acoustic EP or something with him, but he was doing his records with, well, he did one with Drew and he did one with another guy in Florida. We just became friends, that's all it was. And then he was managed by Andy. Then I met Andy, then he introduced me to Drew. It's just how it works. You just be friends with people, just be friends.

Speaker 2 (00:55:27):

It's true though. I actually think that where people get this networking idea wrong is by approaching people with

Speaker 3 (00:55:36):

An agenda.

Speaker 2 (00:55:37):

Unless it's a mutually agreed on thing, we're meeting up for lunch to discuss this idea together. That's one thing. But a nam or wherever you get these professional networker types that walk up to everybody with an agenda that falls flat on its face. It's almost like successful music. People sniff that out and just immediately go the other way. Big time. Just meeting people for the sake of meeting people. That's the way to do it. No agenda open-ended.

Speaker 3 (00:56:09):

Exactly. And yeah, like you said, I feel like with a lot of labels too, their whole day is filled with people going Listen to my band. So they're so good at sniffing that out for sure. And on the same token, I think if you have something to offer, if they know that you're relatively talented, or at least maybe they don't know your level of talent, but they know how ambitious you are, I think that says a lot too to these people.

Speaker 2 (00:56:35):

Well, yeah. It's interesting because there are so many people that are full of shit. I guess ambition, not just blind ambition, but ambition combined with some sort of, I guess vision and true determination stands out. It really does.

Speaker 3 (00:56:52):

There's

Speaker 2 (00:56:53):

Not that many people who actually have all those things in the same package.

Speaker 3 (00:56:57):

Agreed. Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 (00:56:58):

I mean, there's a lot of people who have crazy ambition but have no vision. They just want to get signed, get famous, but they don't have a vision for what they're going to do. Or they have a vision and ambition, but they don't have any talent, or there's typically something missing. It's rare to find someone that has all of those things going for them. I think when label people do come across them immediately start paying attention. Rare. It just stands out. So tell me, what's the typical collaboration like for you with Drew or any sort of songwriting collaboration, for instance, when you're first in a room with somebody or first with a stranger even, how do you pull something out of thin air?

Speaker 3 (00:57:45):

It's different every single time. I think sometimes, because I've written so much for Drew will be like, Hey, just write loops of this nature, and I'll spend a day just writing loops and oftentimes those will go nowhere yet they'll just sit in a folder. So I'll have a lot of starting points, or sometimes I'm writing for something and then what I'm writing for that I make something that doesn't end up for that. But then I go, oh, it's still really cool. Maybe I'll hold onto that for something else. So I'll have a lot of starting points. So sometimes that's where we start. Sometimes the artist has starting points where it's a very similar thing. They have a riff or they have a concept, which I'm pretty new to. I've never been a lyric guy until recently. I think lyrics are tough to write really well.

(00:58:33):

I'm trying to force myself to be better at more impactful lyrics. I think country music, over the past couple of years, I've really tried to get into some country music and they're so good at that. They're so good at being clever and making you feel a certain way. Yeah, so maybe it's that it's literally starting from scratch. We're both just trying things on guitar until something happens. Or maybe sometimes Drew will send me something that he's already maybe like a beat or something and he will need a top line on it, or I think, yeah, it's always something different in terms of songwriting. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:59:10):

How do you deal with lack of inspiration?

Speaker 3 (00:59:13):

Oh God,

Speaker 2 (00:59:14):

I guess you've got a starting point. Say there's a loop or something, but it's just maybe the chemistry is off or you're not feeling it that day, but this is your job, so you got to do it. How do you get yourself through that?

Speaker 3 (00:59:27):

That's literally the hardest part of songwriting because songwriting is an emotional thing. You have to be able to force it out, and as shitty as that sounds, you have to treat it like a full-time job to a certain extent and force ideas out. They're not always good, and often they're not when you do that. But the more ideas you can get out of your head, the better it is to have something tangible that you've heard with your ears or that's written on paper or whatever. I think just overthinking and not putting anything on paper or singing any sort of melody, it's counterproductive. But yeah, it's really tough. I mean, every time I'm forced to write something and I just can't get anywhere, I'll try for a bit, I'll turn it off and come back to it. I think fresh ears is super, super important. You have to give yourself space because you just get wrapped up in it. You can never hear something for the first time twice, but coming back with fresh ears will help that process for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):

It's the closest thing to it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):

And that goes for anything too mixing and producing and engineering and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):

I think that the idea of forcing something into the world, if you just do that, odds are that your brain will turn on at some point in the process.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):

I've been in so many situations where I get so frustrated at myself that I'm not coming up with something genius or that I don't think I am, and I'll just try a bunch of stuff and I'll just put stuff down and record stuff. Literally. I remember one time where I thought it was absolute trash and I turned off pro tools and I came back to it months later just going through ideas and I was like, wow, this is so sick. And I thought it was crap when I did it. And you just don't know because you're so in your head, you're so wrapped up in it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):

So how do you know, I guess, I mean you just said you don't know, but I guess in the moment, how do you know that an idea is worth pursuing?

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):

I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):

You just do.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):

Again, it's an emotional thing. Maybe it's like, I think you need some people you trust in your life to bounce ideas off of also, because like I said, you just get so wrapped up in it, you don't know what's good or not. I think you need people you trust to send ideas to and for them to say, yeah, this is really sick, or it's pretty average, I think to a certain extent it's not going to be bad, but is it great? I think is what you're after.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):

How long does it normally take you to write a song? I mean, you just gave the example of opening it back up several months later,

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):

But

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):

Are you one of these people that believes, yeah, you should finish the song same day, or do you have multiple projects going on for weeks or,

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):

Yeah, I think there's no concrete answer there. You should be able to, in my opinion, if you're working with a good collaborator, you should be able to bang out the majority of a song in a day. Maybe not a bridge, but I think you should be able to get a solid verse, chorus hook thing going in a day, and then you come back to it and you finish it up or not. All the lyrics are patched up, but yeah, and maybe it sucks. At the end of the day, you don't know. But I think just try to get a song done in a day, more or less, or 75% of a song done in a day, and that'll be a pretty good indicator where that song's going.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):

So say that there's somebody out there who wants to follow that career path and they don't know anybody. I mean, we have kind of touched on this, but they don't know anybody or anything. They just want to write songs for a living. How do you think that you go from literally zero to actually getting someone to listen to something that you've got all the way to actually getting good enough to make them care? I know there's a lot to that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):

Yeah. Well, I think there's very few people who take up playing music without knowing at least some person to take a listen to it, even if it's like we just got married, actually, my wife. It's weird saying that in real life. Well,

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):

How long ago? Maybe

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):

Three weeks maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):

Maybe it's like a month. Congrat.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):

Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):

That is recent.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):

Thank you. Yeah, no, I think maybe it's a month. God, it's just flown by, but she's like the best person that I bounce ideas off of because she's the prime example of an army. She listens to music for the sake of listening to music, and if it makes her dance, if it makes her move, that's when I know it's working. She doesn't analyze it, we would analyze it. Again, it comes back to friendships and having people to bounce ideas off of. And with writing, it's tough. You know what? I still am trying to figure it out. To pursue songwriting as a career is really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):

It is hard. I think that the friendships thing and having people to bounce things off of is when people want the hidden secret to writing awesome songs, they're hoping that you're going to give them a formula, which there obviously is no formula, but I feel like one of the biggest mistakes that I see mistakes are just drawbacks or just pitfalls, just problems. And I see this with songwriters, I see this with musicians. I see this with mixers is working too long in isolation. And by that I mean maybe sticking to a very, very narrow local scene to where you maybe at one point you kind of started to move, but then you kind of settled into routine and it just stayed the same complacency the entire time to me, well, that is kind of like isolation.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):

You've

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):

Drawn up the boundaries and it doesn't go beyond that or just working in their bedroom literally forever for a decade or more. I see that kind of stuff too. And the problem with that is not that I don't think that everybody needs to spend a whole lot of time alone just getting better.

(01:05:28):

It's more that when people are in isolation, they kind of lose sight of or never even learn in the first place where the bar is at, and they don't have a good gauge for what they need to improve on, what their level is actually at. And I realize that we're saying that songwriting comes from the heart, which is true, but still, you can be good at it or you can be bad at it, and there are things that you can get better at, but if you have no gauge of where you're at compared to other people that are doing it, it's more of a crapshoot. I've noticed that with guitar players too, like guitar players who think that they're tight with their right hand, for instance, and they're nowhere near tight, but they've never worked with a real producer. They don't have other badass guitar player friends. All they have is their DA, their bedroom and amps in a guitar. And so their perception of their own skill level is just wildly inaccurate. Either they think they're horrible or they think they're great, but neither of those are typically true.

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):

That's such a perfect point because it's all about standards. It's like if you're surrounding yourself with people, I mean Roz, my wife, her mentality with having or getting successful is surround yourself with people who you want to be. Like, whose shoes do you want to be in? Go surround yourself with those people even as a regular sort of relationship or friendship or whatever, just be around those people because if you are, that's where your standard is now. I mean, this is a really weird comparison, but when I was growing up, I was the best at soccer when I was a really small kid, house league or whatever they called it. I kept being the best player on that team for years, and then my parents went, you should probably go up a league. And I didn't want to do that because then I wouldn't be the best. And then when I went up a league, it was a rude awakening of, oh, now I'm one of the worst players on this team, but now look, I can see how much better I can get. So I pushed and I tried to get better, and then obviously I quit soccer.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):

Maybe that's a good thing though, right?

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):

Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. No, absolutely. But I'm just drawing the comparison to I'm now surrounded by all these people who are doing it way better than I even imagined, and I can see how much better I can get now. So you work up to that and you're inspired by these people. And I think when you have a different standard now, like you were saying, when a guitarist thinks they're really great and then they enter a studio with a producer who expects way better and maybe grabs the guitar and does it even better themselves, then they go, holy, maybe I have some work to do. And they work on that and they become better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):

Absolutely. But dude, I've seen the exact opposite too, which is also a problem towards the beginning of URM, I used to do one-on-ones regularly with people. Now we have staff doing them, but I remember one person, I did a one-on-one with every few months he would book one, and he was working on the same album the entire time for years, and he was one of these dudes that did everything, wrote everything, played everything, and wanted to mix everything. And he was actually pretty damn good. It had a lot of potential. I don't just say that either about people. I'm super critical of people's music and especially guitar players. This dude was good, but he didn't think so. So he kept on working on the same songs over and over and re-tracking, focusing in on things that were not wrong with the songs and just thinking that they're wrong and he never moved forward and never went anywhere with it, even though he certainly could have, but his. So I think that that's just as much of a problem. It's just inaccurate is the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):

Yeah, I mean, you're right. I think that's maybe less common. A lot of people who do that and just they're probably doing it rightfully. It maybe is not good and keep trying to make it better and better and better. But then look at fricking Billy Eilish and Phineas, that's all them fully them, at least their first record and everything before their first record was no co-writes, no producer, only those two in his bedroom. That's mind blowing. And obviously that's freakish. That's pretty uncommon as well. But I mean, I'm sure there's people that they're bouncing stuff off of and they come from a family that have pretty high standards in terms of the entertainment industry. But yeah, it's tough. There's all these things we're talking about. There's no concrete answer.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):

No, there isn't. Because dude, I know guitar players too that are among some of the very best in the world. There's this dude, Wes Hawk that's been on my other podcast. He's a Devon Townsend's guitar player, and he's in a band called Louisville. He is god damn spectacular, and I've been in a session with him where he is tracking something. I wasn't tracking it, but anyways, he was tracking something and it just wasn't good enough for him, and nobody else could hear what he was talking about. But when someone's that good, you just assume they are freakishly good. So there's something in their head that's not like everybody, they don't think it's good enough. We're going to let 'em run with it. Right?

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):

But here's the thing, I think at that point, where's the producer saying, trust me, it's good, it's fine. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):

It depends on the situation and who you're working with. There are situations where the musician is right, it's not good enough. There is a level they could take it to, and there's other situations where they're being nutcases. I think the producer has to know the difference.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):

Yeah, I think, I'm not sure if I've ever been in a situation where they're not being nut cases and maybe

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):

Well, in a good way or a bad way,

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):

Maybe I was the nutcase all along M Night Shalon.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):

I've definitely been in scenarios a few times with musicians that I would consider Olympic athlete level types. I mean, they're nutcases in that to get to that level of ability, they have to be a little weird

Speaker 3 (01:12:30):

For sure.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):

But they weren't being crazy when they thought they could get it better. They actually could get it better. I just didn't understand how good they were capable of being and they knew it. That's definitely happened. It's rare, I'll admit. It's rare. It's usually the other version,

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):

And I fully admire that. I think that's amazing. I think that's what makes them amazing, what they do. Their standards are so high. I think if you can strive for that and not just, I think if you have the perfect balance, and I mean all of this where we're talking about, it's like always you need a balance. You need trust, you need talent, you need ambition. But the projects I enjoy most are the ones with good musicians and also everybody has trust in each other. I'm just working with, I just finished working with the Sania. It's with Mike from Stained and Adam from the original singer, three Days Grace. And to me that's a pretty big deal because those guys, I grew up listening to Three Days Grace, and it's really cool working with Adam because he is a literal rockstar, a legendary rockstar and zero ego, fully trusting in me. And sometimes it's like I get this imposter syndrome where I'm like, why does this dude trust me? But I think he's conditioned because obviously he's way more successful or he has been way more successful in the past than I am.

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):

He's also way older.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):

I mean, he's been doing it for much longer. I think, why is this guy putting all of this trust in me? And I think the answer is because he's conditioned to, he's a pro, he's been in the situation where he's been the rockstar. He's worked with producers that have put him through the ringer, and he's at the point now where he's like, he's been around the block. He knows that if you just trust each other and the studio magical will happen, and we all know what we're talking about. It's not like I'm making bad decisions, he's making bad decisions. We're all making decisions together. I think when you have that kind of talent and that kind of trust in each other, there's going to be nothing but success that comes out of it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):

I agree completely. A lot of veterans who have had a lot of success, it's because they have been around the block and have been in all kinds of different situations, but I think primarily they've worked with people who are capable of delivering their music at a level where it will have amazing results out in the world, and they've learned that in order to make that work, everyone has to do their own job basically. You got to let the producer be the producer. I mean, obviously you got to speak up if you don't like something, but overall, these pros know you hired the producer or the co-writer or whatever for a reason. You didn't hire him or her just to second guess every single move that they make, why did you hire them if you're going to do that? And I find that those types of sessions with those people at those levels tend to be a lot smoother just because there's that understanding, and I think you're right, they are conditioned to it, but they're conditioned to it not through conditioning a bad habit. They're conditioned to it because they've been at such a high level for so long that the people that they encounter are all high level people.

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):

I think I would say that is the biggest difference between somebody who's putting out their first release or first couple releases and somebody who has been around the block for a while and seems like a pro or who is a pro is just the amount of how easy it is and how smooth it is to work with them because there's trust. Every project where I have so many mixed notes are very small clients of mine. It's always the small clients who have the most amount of mixed notes and the bigger the client, it's like there's a few notes because they go, yeah, I mean they trust the mix. They trust the mixer. And I think that just is a perfect example of maybe not letting go of a little bit of control. I think when you're starting out, I feel like you have all of these thoughts and emotions and you need it to be exactly a certain way. And then when you've done it a few times, you're like, well, I trust the process. So I think maybe some advice I would give to somebody who's new starting out maybe as an artist or primarily as an artist or a songwriter, is maybe try to let a little bit of control go unless obviously, unless it's a blatantly not the right move, but don't nitpick. I don't think you need to nitpick with mixes at least. At least that's my experience so far.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):

It's tricky because I think a smaller artist can't always afford who they want, and so they'll oftentimes hire someone out of convenience or practicality and then not be happy with what they're getting, but not know that the real answer was Save your money a little longer.

Speaker 3 (01:17:57):

Buy nicer or buy twice.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):

Yeah, exactly. Which applies when you're hiring a producer or a mixer.

Speaker 3 (01:18:04):

I found that even when you are hiring or they are hiring somebody who they've wanted to hire all along, they'll pull the same stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):

Yes. No, you're right. That's why it's tricky because I've seen it go both ways because when I've seen it where they're legitimately not happy with the person they could afford, it's like, well, yeah, I get it at the same time, why do you hire them? But then I see it, they'll hire a superstar that's fucking amazing, and they'll still do that shit to them. And it's like, dude, shut up. Just let 'em do their job and be happy. When you get a mix that makes you sound amazing. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):

It's a tricky one. These questions, these subjects are tough to pinpoint exact thoughts on because there's so many different situations and there's so many different types of people and scenarios and personal situations too that maybe upbringings where you're just surrounded by people that aren't inspiring or that one person who's trying to write a song or is trying to make songwriting their career may not be surrounded by people just that are inspiring or that will support them or financially or emotionally or whatever, just based on pure luck. And it's tough. My best friend, I think is one of the most talented songwriters I know, and I try to write with him on everything I do, but he's a little less fortunate in terms of he doesn't have a mixed room or a production room or a writing room, and he'll have roommates or he won't be surrounded by creative types like I am.

(01:19:47):

So it's easier for me to whatever. You also have to think about those things and all the variables that aren't quite as easily presented to certain people. And that just literally means certain people have to try harder. And that's the sad truth. But I mean, look at Tiger Woods. He just tried harder than everyone else because he didn't feel like he was as athletic as some people. That's just the way it is. Some people have to try harder to get to a level that other people can easily get to or get to easier, I should say. And that's just the sad truth.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):

I agree with you. And in reference to what you said about, there's no exact answer to these questions. I think that is the exact answer actually, that it depends is the actual answer for all this stuff that is so funny. It's funny because I'll nail the mix and people are asking questions all the time, and we could be dickhead and just be like, the actual answer is it depends. So none of this matters.

Speaker 3 (01:20:48):

Yeah, people are looking for a start.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):

Exactly. It's not going to help anybody. It always says it depends, but it is true. That is the actual answer is it depends to pretty much any of this stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):

It's so funny that you said that because I was just working with this band last week who the singer kept asking me about, so what's your process in doing this? Or how long does it take to usually do this? And he would literally ask me these questions throughout a week of us working together. And my answer every single time was, dude, it depends. I don't know. There's no answer.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):

That is the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:21:23):

And I wasn't even trying to be a dick. I was just like, I can't even give you an answer. And maybe it was just the questions he was asking, and he actually got to a point where he was like, I'm not even going to ask.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):

Okay, so just to clarify, I don't think you're being a dick. I mean, if people were paying for a nail to mix service logging in to watch the live streams, and all we did was say, it depends. We'd be dick. But I mean, in reality, in one-to-one, I think it's good to tell people the truth when it comes to that kind of stuff because it will help them more, I think, than telling them that you always take four hours and 47 minutes to write a song, and if it takes less, it's not good enough and it takes more, you're just wasting time.

Speaker 3 (01:22:09):

Yeah, that's such a good point too. The more concrete answers you give people, the more that they have that idea in their head of that's what it should be. For me, I think that's counterproductive when somebody's just trying to learn something and ensure that maybe there's a benchmark. Maybe there's like this person that I'm listening to just said they write a song in approximately a day, so I should be able to, but if you don't, that's also fine. It happens. There's country writers who write three songs in a day and they're amazing, and that's just because they're fricking all stars. It doesn't mean you should be able to, it doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means that's what they do. But yeah, like I said, a lot of the time these people are just looking for an approximation on how do I make that kick sound good? How do I deal with bleed? Well, it depends how much bleed is there, how poor does the snare sound? But you can go based on this snare, based on the amount of lead

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):

In this situation,

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):

In this situation, this is probably how I would handle it. Yeah. So yeah, it's all approximations really.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):

Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, you do need to figure it out for yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):

Yeah, big time.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):

Big time. Everyone I know who's had any success in any aspect of music basically figured it out for themselves. Usually there's good mentorship, but still at the end of the day, they still had to figure it out

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):

And trust yourself to a certain extent, trust what you're doing. Because I think when there's a lot of self-doubt, which I mean let's be real, we're artists. We all have self-doubt, even at the highest levels. When you have that so much, you have so much trust in other people and what other people have to say. And God, I still do this still when I hear somebody else say they do a song in this amount of time, or when CLA says he mixes a radio hit in three hours. And it's like, I make that my new standard, and I know it shouldn't be. I know in my head that I should be listening to my own advice that I'm saying right now, but it's really hard as artists, I mean, I'm sure this,

(01:24:21):

It's really hard to step back and trust yourself, trust the process and go, if you're working on a mix for five hours or whatever, and you step back and you go, does this actually sound good? Listen to the big picture here. Does this sound good or not? And what still needs to be improved? Or does it all suck or does it sound amazing? And you know what? If it sounds amazing and you can objectively say that, holy shit, this is an amazing mix, then maybe it's an amazing mix. And then that's where you have peers that come into the mix and you can bounce that stuff off of them. But I think it's a healthy balance of trusting yourself and trusting your intuitions and also trusting people around you that are close enough and that you trust their opinions.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):

This trust yourself idea is interesting because it's weird. There's a duality to it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):

Part of it is it's weird not listening to yourself, meaning trust that your original idea was good, and don't trust the voices in your head that come up after and try to shoot it down, or don't trust the imposter syndrome. Do trust that you're in the right place and that you belong there. It's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):

That feeling never ever goes away. No, it doesn't. Till this day, I get whatever project it is, I get in my own head a thousand times over. And it's funny because let's say if it's a mixed project, which I've had a bunch of recently, it's been primarily my work recently, I'll do a mix. I'll finish a song and I'll go, damn, this sounds awesome. And I'm listening to it from front to back and I go, this sounds fantastic. And then the next day or a couple days after that, I'll hear tons of things and I'm like, oh, damn. Is the vocal not sitting right? Is the kick not sitting right or whatever? And I'll start second guessing so many things. And I have to tell myself, trust the guy two days ago because I had zero problems with it two days ago, and maybe my ears are a little bit fresher and there could be a couple tweaks I can make.

(01:26:22):

But if I'm talking about the whole vocal being way too bright or the whole vocal being way too buried in the mix, it's probably not the case. It's probably fine. And I'm probably just being way too in my head about it. And then again, that's where you need to have somebody to be like, am I crazy? Or this, are the vocals too loud? Or the vocals too buried, or whatever. But it's like no matter what, you're never going to stop battling with yourself in your head unless you're in this ultra meditative state for your whole life. Or a

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):

Sociopath.

Speaker 3 (01:26:53):

Or a sociopath. Exactly. Though

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):

I'm saying that because I've met a few in this industry is very successful. Sociopaths,

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):

Full confidence,

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):

But they're fucking crazy. That's why they don't question themselves. There's something misfired because that's not how normal people are. I mean, the imposter syndrome thing never goes away. Same with that self-doubt, the imposter syndrome. I just landed a project that is insane. I can't say what it is, but it's insane.

Speaker 3 (01:27:26):

Well, congrats. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):

It might be the biggest thing we've ever done by a lot and it feels appropriate. I've worked really hard to get it. It's from a contact that I've had for well over a decade. We've been talking about doing this for years. It just finally got to this point. It is appropriate, and I know why we were selected and it all makes sense, but still there's this other voice in my head that's like, don't fuck it up. Of course you're going to fuck this up. I'm not going to fuck it up. That voice is raging.

Speaker 3 (01:27:59):

You have to sit back and go. They chose me for a reason. And that's the biggest thing here. That's the biggest thing that you should be focusing on,

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):

And not on a whim either. This is years in the making.

Speaker 3 (01:28:10):

Exactly. And everything that you've done up to this point has led you here and there's tons of reasons to back that up. Yeah. It wasn't on a whim. You're here for a reason and it's a practice. I think it's a mental practice.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):

Yeah. Because there's everything you're saying is reasonable and rational, but that voice is neither of those things

Speaker 3 (01:28:33):

Is loud.

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):

Yeah, it's loud and it's irrational. You have to kind of calm it down. I don't think it ever goes away though.

Speaker 3 (01:28:40):

Oh, no, I doubt it. I mean, I have yet to get to the top, but I would suspect that at the highest levels, it's probably louder than ever, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):

Yeah, because more to lose.

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):

Yeah, exactly. And there's more people to let down and that kind of stuff, so for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):

Yeah. I mean, you're still you, so the external world changes, but you don't. But I think with that, it's a good place to end the episode. I want to thank you for taking the time to chill. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 3 (01:29:10):

Thank you. Yeah, this was absolutely awesome and I'm honored to be a part of it. Happy to have you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):

Anytime. Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy. And of course, tag our guest as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot aca y. And use the subject line answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):

You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.