CARL BOWN: The Trivium Kick Drum Search, Colin Richardson’s Mix Philosophy, and Work-Life Balance

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line. Answer me aal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is an old friend. Carl Bown is a musician, producer, mix engineer and studio owner out of the uk, who is also a nail the mix instructor.

(00:01:53):

He did the bullet for my Valentine Nail, the mix back in 2018, and I got to say it's one of the most intricate nail the mix episodes ever. He was previously awarded the Breakthrough Producer of the Year Award in 2010, and he's worked with some of the best and the brightest in the industry. He came up under Colin Richardson, who is the legend, and Carl has worked with bands such as Trivium Machine Head Fur, my Valentine, bring Me The Horizon as I Lay Dying, carcass Woven war, and many, many others. Introduce you, Carl Bown and welcome to the URM Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:30):

Hey man, how's it going?

Speaker 1 (00:02:31):

Good, how are you?

Speaker 2 (00:02:32):

Yeah, good. We just had a bit of a chat about what it's like the minute in a pandemic, but yeah, it's all right. Just getting by, working.

Speaker 1 (00:02:41):

10 years ago right now, you were at my old house with Colin and J recording in waves.

Speaker 2 (00:02:48):

Yeah, 10 years ago. Wow. Yeah, that is nuts.

Speaker 1 (00:02:53):

It feels like yesterday, but it also feels like a really long time ago.

Speaker 2 (00:02:56):

I was just about to say it feels like the blink of an eye that, but a lot has happened since then.

Speaker 1 (00:03:01):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:03:02):

Wow. I've had two children since then.

Speaker 1 (00:03:06):

I haven't. I was about to say, so have I, but I definitely have not had two children since then.

Speaker 2 (00:03:12):

Wow. Yeah, it's funny that I remember I just started working with Colin at that point. Yeah. I just finished the Rise to Remain record, which was Austin Dickinson's first band, and Colin said, we're going to need another set of hands for this Trivium record. Are you in? There's basically no money in it for you. I was like, of course I'm in. Are you crazy? I remember it was one of my goals was to make a record in the States before I was 30. Yeah. It was 10 years. I was 30 on the 3rd of January, and then we flew out on the seventh, so I missed it by four days. So bummer.

Speaker 1 (00:03:49):

Wow. Close enough. Close

Speaker 2 (00:03:51):

Enough. Yeah. For jazz,

Speaker 1 (00:03:53):

I've talked about this a lot. That was kind of quite a way to christen that drum room to have you guys come in and be the first project there.

Speaker 2 (00:04:02):

We definitely put it through its paces, didn't we? If I remember correctly.

Speaker 1 (00:04:06):

Yeah, you did. Thank God that room sounded good. That room was kind of just a magical find.

Speaker 2 (00:04:16):

It sounded great, dude.

Speaker 1 (00:04:17):

We couldn't have built a room like that. It just happened to be like that for whatever reason.

Speaker 2 (00:04:25):

It was fantastic. I remember we were stoked on it. I think by the time we finally got a drum sound, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (00:04:31):

Well, I want to talk about that in a second.

Speaker 2 (00:04:36):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:04:36):

So I was a little nervous, obviously. Well, I had already known Colin because he mixed my band, but it was still a little nerve wracking. The very first project in my brand new room is fucking Colin. That was scary as hell. All I could do was get it as prepared as I could possibly make it, get it as nice as I could possibly make it, and then just hope to God that it was fine for you guys. Seems like at least that part of it was. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:05:06):

Yeah, yeah. It was cool, man. I remember just constantly building studios on that session, building studios out of bits and bobs, and of course we were in that gray room at yours. We, it was like a gray plastered room.

Speaker 1 (00:05:21):

Yes. Okay. So what was supposed to happen when I moved there was that that barn out back was going to become the control room, and so that room you guys were in was a temporary control room.

Speaker 2 (00:05:34):

I see.

Speaker 1 (00:05:34):

That control room outback never happened. It's just one of the reasons that I decided I didn't want to stay there anymore. But yeah, so the room that you were in was just supposed to be a makeshift room while the real control room was built.

Speaker 2 (00:05:48):

I see. No, it was great though, dude. Yeah, I really enjoyed

Speaker 3 (00:05:51):

It

Speaker 1 (00:05:51):

Worked.

Speaker 2 (00:05:52):

Yeah, it worked. It worked great. I mean, in waves turned out really good. It was like we made a kit out of everything that we'd got. I remember we tried loads of different drums and I think, weren't we looking for a kick sound for

Speaker 1 (00:06:04):

Three weeks?

Speaker 2 (00:06:05):

I was going to say two, but maybe three.

Speaker 1 (00:06:07):

No, it was three. It was three. It was three. I remember you guys spent five days just finding the right place to put the kick drum.

Speaker 2 (00:06:15):

Yeah. I mean, that's Colin Richardson, FOIA legend,

Speaker 1 (00:06:18):

But it sounded great.

Speaker 2 (00:06:19):

It did.

Speaker 1 (00:06:20):

That's the thing. It's like in certain circumstances when you hear of someone doing that or you go to work with someone and they're doing that kind of stuff, it's like, dude, we're on the clock. Even if we're not on the clock, we're on the clock. What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:06:35):

I don't think Colin's ever thought that. Has he?

Speaker 1 (00:06:38):

No. And I don't think anyone who's ever worked with him should ever feel like that because I wasn't having these thoughts by the way with it. I was interested to hear what would happen when you guys found the spot that kicked drum sounded fucking phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (00:06:52):

I remember it was good.

Speaker 1 (00:06:53):

Yeah, it was worth whatever you guys had to go through.

Speaker 2 (00:06:57):

I liked it as well when you start putting photos of different sessions up that you were doing and stuff, and it was kind of like, oh, they're keeping the kit in a similar place and stuff. And did you ever find a better spot through trial and error or,

Speaker 1 (00:07:08):

So remind me, did you guys have it angled in the corner or did you guys have it parallel to the back wall with the door?

Speaker 2 (00:07:17):

I think we had it angled in the corner firing out into, because it was like a living area, wasn't it as well? It was like there was a kitchen at the back of

Speaker 1 (00:07:24):

The, it never became a living area.

Speaker 2 (00:07:29):

We had the kit in the corner, I think we built some clouds out of, we used some burlap and put some foam in the cloud to try and quieten the symbols down a little bit.

Speaker 1 (00:07:41):

So what we ended up doing was we discovered that maybe better for us was to bring it out from that corner, maybe like five feet to where it was center, center in the room and shooting down the long way. And then we put a cloud right above that sweet spot up in the ceiling. I still don't know how much it helped, but still we did put a cloud above the drum position, and then we got these gobos built gobos on wheels. They're very heavy, but we needed them because that room was so big and so reflective that for some of the super fast stuff, it was just, even for some of the slower stuff, it's just too much.

Speaker 2 (00:08:20):

But

Speaker 1 (00:08:21):

What was cool about it, when we put the gobos in, we get the best of both worlds. You can use all the room mics in the world and get that huge sound, but then also with the gobos we were using get a super close sound too.

Speaker 2 (00:08:33):

Yeah. That's where we do our place as well. It's quite a big room, so if you close it in, it calms the symbols down in the room mics and makes this kick and snet really bang, which is lovely.

Speaker 1 (00:08:42):

Yeah, you have to massage those big rooms, I think if you record heavy music.

Speaker 2 (00:08:48):

Yeah, for sure. Especially at 200 bpm.

Speaker 1 (00:08:50):

Yeah, definitely. So this is 10 years ago. I don't remember all the details, but I do remember you guys found a corner. I do remember the bass drum spot being at an angle in a corner.

Speaker 2 (00:09:01):

Yeah, it's just blurry. It's so long ago. But it seems like you said, it seems like only yesterday really, but so many records since then. Wow.

Speaker 1 (00:09:12):

Yeah. What is it about working for that long on something that is worth it, I guess, as opposed to doing it in a week where I'm sure you could still get great drum sounds in a week. Oh yeah, totally. What is it about how you guys approached it that is not time wasting, where those are three justified weeks? What is it in the process?

Speaker 2 (00:09:32):

Well, I dunno, man. I think because definitely I was working for Colin on that session, it wasn't my session at all. I was definitely very much engineering on that session, and I know you'll know from your work with Darth that Colin has a sound in his head and until he's got that he's restless. And I guess that's probably it. It's unusual. It's very specific.

Speaker 1 (00:09:57):

He's got a vision, well, a vision for a sound. And I think a lot of mixers, producers have more of a directional vision, whereas they know where they want to take it. But in Collin's case, I mean, I'm not in his head, but I get the feeling that it's a very finished sound he hears in his head.

Speaker 2 (00:10:19):

Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And that's something that I definitely learned from him. I don't like recording drums and Les, they basically sound finished. It's kind of one of the ethoses we run my run by is if you're tracking drums, it's going to sound amazing, and that's the worst it's going to sound. It's a great kind of rule to live by, I suppose. But I definitely got that from Colin, but he did. I remember getting guitar tone with him as well where he would just be like, Nope, not yet. Until it was exactly how he imagined it in his head, and that's what he's like. He's very specific and incredible because of it. I mean, legacy's fantastic, isn't it? Just look at those records. They're all fantastic.

Speaker 1 (00:11:08):

Did his way of thinking about it, of forming a final kind of image in your mind, did that influence you?

Speaker 2 (00:11:15):

Yeah, usually before I set out to make any kind of record, I'll obviously have a chat with the band and stuff and we will kind of get a vision for a sound like you just said. And I think that's really important because that's what a record is really. It's a snapshot of where a band is at that time. You just kind of like, this is what we want to do and this is the idea and this is where we're going to go with it. So I always have that kind of chat with the band and it's not a formal chat. We might just be hanging out or go for some food or whatever, or

Speaker 1 (00:11:48):

It's not

Speaker 2 (00:11:48):

Like a

Speaker 1 (00:11:48):

Business plan.

Speaker 2 (00:11:49):

I know it's nothing like that at all.

Speaker 1 (00:11:51):

It's funny you mentioned that because I know of a lot of people who want to have a band who come from the real world, and I've seen them write business plans for bands and business plans for the direction of an album, like a serious up business plan. They're building a hardware store and it's like, no, that's not how you do it.

Speaker 2 (00:12:11):

No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (00:12:12):

Plans never work out. So you're saying they're informal conversations, but where everybody kind of starts to understand the vibe and the feelings that everyone has?

Speaker 2 (00:12:23):

Yeah, that's it. Or it could just be late night WhatsApp chats, and I just keep logging all the ideas that the band's got. And then when it comes to getting a drum sound, I'll have already kind of in the back of my mind, I'll have thought, okay, well last album was black beauty, but this time a six and a half deep black beauty, and this time they want something a bit more of a pop. So let's start with a five and a half inch drum and let's go a bit higher this time and just try and do the homework transparently. Do you know what I mean? And there's never ever kind of a sit down and it's just kind of like I'll just absorb it. And then when it comes to doing anything, so if it's guitar tone time or whatever and something's been mentioned, then I'll try and work that into the first go at a guitar tone. And it is all part of this picture that's slowly been built up and hopefully sounds more finished as the record goes along. But at every stage of recording, and this is from Colin, I like it to sound how it's going to sound when it's finished. I mean, the rough mix is usually sound, basically quiet versions of the finish mix.

Speaker 1 (00:13:28):

What's interesting is that even with this, the super modern way of doing things where people use templates, it's in the box, the modern engineer. I know that older engineers laugh at when you call 'em engineers with this modern way, but it is what it is. They're making audio and some of it sounds really fucking good.

Speaker 2 (00:13:51):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:13:51):

It's just modern tools. But one of the things that I've noticed that's part of the super modern ethos is to have things sounding finished before they're started, pretty much to have it as close to done as possible. And I think it's so important now that even a and r guys who used to say, oh, I can just hear the demo, that's fine. It doesn't need to sound like anything finished. I can imagine that what it'll be like or bands who were cool to hear something quiet, unmastered no longer cool to hear quiet unmastered mixes, they need it loud. People need things as close to finished as possible, as quickly as possible. I think that that's partially the speed at which the world moves. Now that's things just need to move faster, but also the tools have allowed for that to be a possibility. And so if some people are doing it and artists and labels get used to some people doing it, then the people who don't are going to lag behind. And I think that Collin's way of doing it was super ahead of its time. The idea of getting it as finished as possible every step of the way.

Speaker 2 (00:15:04):

Yeah, it's

Speaker 1 (00:15:05):

Very ahead. For

Speaker 2 (00:15:05):

Sure, man.

Speaker 1 (00:15:06):

Now, one thing I remember about you was we had a conversation about drum editing. I don't know if you remember this conversation. You were at my house,

Speaker 2 (00:15:15):

No, uhoh, what did I say?

Speaker 1 (00:15:18):

You said you loved it.

Speaker 2 (00:15:20):

I do.

Speaker 1 (00:15:20):

You were super, super stoked to be there. This was like the second or third time I had met you. We were just making conversation with some dude who was going to be at my house every day for a long time. And so we were just talking shop. I remember you were telling me you love editing drums, you love every single thing about doing this, and your enthusiasm for audio was infectious. And I remember you had told me that there was a flight, you took a short flight in Europe, I believe maybe you went to Italy, to Britain, to Britain, to Italy, something like that, where you had two hours and you edited an album's worth of drums on the way there and then on the way back and that any opportunity you had to work on shit, you would work on shit because you loved it. You just couldn't get enough.

Speaker 2 (00:16:09):

Yeah, it's unusual that you remember that. But yeah, I do. I remember I did. I went,

Speaker 1 (00:16:13):

What's unusual about that?

Speaker 2 (00:16:15):

Well, nothing. It was just a random conversation we had. But yeah, I do. I do love it. And I went to a wedding in Italy on the way there, I edited half the drums and on the way back I edited the other half. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:16:29):

Oh wow. Good memory.

Speaker 2 (00:16:30):

Oh well, yeah, very well remembered. But yeah, I do really enjoy it. At that point, I was 10 years younger and slightly more maybe. But yeah, I do really enjoy it. There's something quite fantastic about kind of whipping something into shape, isn't there? It's a good feeling.

Speaker 1 (00:16:50):

Absolutely. The reason I point this out is because one thing that I've noticed from all the nail the mixes and the podcasts and everything is that when you start to talk to the people who are in their fifties or sixties who have been doing this forever, they tend to still have that attitude. Something about this line of work it keeps them that excited for, they're still just as excited about it. And I'm sure that we've all seen the burnout producers who by the time they're 40, they hate everything that they're doing and bands start to hate working with them and it's just miserable. But then I talked to the guys who have been successful the whole time and through their ups and downs, but still just come out on top and still doing cool stuff. They have this love for it that never went away. So I guess whenever I notice that, it sticks with me because at that point in my career, I had already been around quite a few bitter people and I don't consider myself a bitter person. So whenever I meet somebody who has that kind of attitude, a little mental note gets made. That's what it was. And I also thought to myself, this guy's working under Colin. This is obviously a big break for him. I didn't know any of your history. He can't be getting paid very much and he's stoked as fuck to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:18:18):

Yeah, it was,

Speaker 1 (00:18:19):

Yeah, let this be a lesson to people who want to do this sort of thing. At the beginning of your career, you have to just agree to do things and be cool with not getting paid very much, and your payment is in the fact that you get to be around somebody amazing and do amazing things.

Speaker 2 (00:18:36):

Yeah, for sure. I mean, traveling for a start was amazing. Meeting people by yourself, really cool. And then just hopefully some of that Colin Richardson education, that was worth it anyway. I would've done it for no money. Everyone would, well, not everyone, but anyone that wanted to learn how to make records like Carl at that time. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:18:58):

What else I thought was interesting. So I definitely consider you a producer, mixer, artist in your own right? A hundred percent. I just didn't know you back then. I have followed your career this whole time, and you're most definitely someone who can and has stood on their own. But what I'm wondering is how did you keep your ego in check when working under Colin? And maybe you didn't have to, maybe you just naturally knew how to do it, but one of the things that fucks up a lot of engineers who work under a legend or under somebody else is that they can't handle the being humble part for too long if they know that at some point they want to do their own thing. But it seems to me like even if you want to do your own thing, which obviously you did, because look, you've done your own thing, it seems to me like you knew exactly how to keep the focus where the focus needed to be. If it's Collin's record, it's Collin's record. I'm not going to try and take the spotlight. I'm not going to get in the way. I know my role. Am I accurate?

Speaker 2 (00:20:06):

Yeah, I guess so. I don't think that just kind of goes for, if you're engineering under another producer, I think that goes for the gig as a producer, stop anyway. Because as producers or if you're an engineer working under a producer or in any kind of capacity, you are making a record for an artist. You're not making the record for yourself ever really, are you? So I guess ultimately the kind of producers that get this kind of big ego kind of thing, I guess maybe there's quite a lot of devil in that. I don't feel like it's our place to be that person really. I guess it's our place to make the record that the artist wants to make. In that case, when I was working with Colin, Colin was the producer and he was the artist I was working for along with the band. So I guess that's probably, does that answer your question? I dunno.

Speaker 1 (00:21:00):

So what it tells me is that you've always understood the role that the engineer and producers play, and by extension you understood your role in whatever situation you were in.

Speaker 2 (00:21:13):

Yeah. Without the bands, we don't have a job. We so, I mean the bands and the artists, it's their records. We just kind of are their vessel to facilitate making them and make sure they have a fantastic time doing it because a happy record always turns out to be a good record. Although I have made some records, they've nearly killed bands and they've turned out to be great for the band too. But yeah, I guess that's, sure. I always wanted to make records myself and working under someone like Colin is a privilege.

Speaker 1 (00:21:48):

Do you think that maybe your mature vantage point or viewpoint on that was possible because you started working with him when you were 30 as opposed to 18?

Speaker 2 (00:21:58):

Not sure.

Speaker 1 (00:21:59):

Reason I say that is because a lot of URM students who are in their thirties have started landing really good gigs with people and a lot of 'em have expressed fears pre getting the gig that they're too old to do this or something. And my answer was always, you should still try because look, you might not have the energy of an 18-year-old maybe, but trust me, a producer who has been around a long time, if you've got the right attitude and you'll do what you need to do and make their life easier, at the end of the day, they're probably going to be happier working with an adult.

Speaker 2 (00:22:39):

Yeah, maybe I'd never really thought about it that

Speaker 1 (00:22:41):

That's what has seemed to have transpired with these URM students that are like 30, 35, 36 who have gotten assistant gigs with people is it seems to me like the producer prefers to just be able to talk to someone who's on their level of maturity.

Speaker 2 (00:22:58):

Yeah, maybe. I've never really thought about that, but I guess there's a secondary factor that probably works in with that. I dunno if it works for everybody. That's a pretty sweeping statement, but I know what it was for me was that I definitely wanted to give being in a band a go. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:23:15):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:23:16):

And I had to give that everything, because the trick to anything you do, isn't it? Just pick one thing and do that. So that's what I did, and I kind of always enjoyed the kind of production aspect of things and really wanted to do that, but I knew that unless I gave being in a band a hundred percent, that was never going to work, gave a hundred percent and it didn't work. So it was definitely kind of, and then there was that time that always seems to happen where you're in a band but you're doing more records for other people. And then somehow I ended up making a record with Colin. It's an entire story all by itself that, but there was definitely a decision that I made when I was maybe about, I think I'd be probably 28 when I started working with Colin, maybe 29. It wasn't a hard decision to make. It was like, right, I'm going to have to do this now because this has a career path. It was the thing to do. It definitely was that being in a band thing wasn't going to work, so I just had to make the decision. It was a pretty easy decision really. But yeah, so I guess that maybe there is an age factor in that the opportunity, I wasn't searching out the opportunity to work full-time in studios when I was 18. That just wasn't something I was doing.

Speaker 1 (00:24:31):

Interesting. I can kind of relate. When I got the offer to go to Florida, I was in the band, the band wasn't doing too great, and I had put my all into doing the band, but it just wasn't working out. And so when I got the offer to move down there and do that, studio wasn't really a tough decision at all. Even though I had put my life into the band, it was very clear to me that this is the path forward. Even if I don't plan on staying there for very long, this is the path forward.

Speaker 2 (00:25:04):

Yeah. That's what happened to me. And it was tough because you are in that band with your best friends and you've toured and you've worked hard and

Speaker 1 (00:25:14):

You were in that band with your best friends.

Speaker 2 (00:25:19):

Well, I was in that van with my best friends and luckily we were all still really close and that's great, but it was definitely right. That's it. That's what I'm going to do now. Just as you said, it wasn't a hard decision to make, even though you'd put everything you'd got into something else. Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:25:36):

Yeah, it's just almost like you can see the future through it almost. You can see how it's going to lead to the next thing, even though you don't know what the next thing is going to be. It's very obvious that this is the path to that next thing.

Speaker 2 (00:25:52):

Yeah, that's what happened with me and I guess that's why I was a bit older. Like you said, I feel like I'm working on something with you here. It feels a little bit like therapy.

Speaker 1 (00:26:04):

I mean, we could talk about compressor settings too, if you want. I'm

Speaker 2 (00:26:09):

In. Yeah, we'll do that in a bit.

Speaker 1 (00:26:12):

I mean, we did that on nail the mix though. I think a podcast isn't nearly as good of a format platform for really getting into mixing and production. I mean, you did nail the mix. There's no way a podcast can match that for getting into the real deal behind a mix.

Speaker 2 (00:26:30):

Yeah, it, it's not the right format at all. Right.

Speaker 1 (00:26:33):

So to me, the podcast is more about just having a conversation with someone that I think does great work and getting in their head and how they got to where they are and what makes them tick. And to me, that's far more interesting for this kind of format.

Speaker 2 (00:26:52):

Yeah, it's cool, man. It's good. I'm having fun.

Speaker 1 (00:26:55):

Cool. Good. So since we can relate to each other on this idea of we have a band, band didn't quite do what we wanted, we both got this pretty awesome studio opportunity kind of around the same time. I'm wondering if you also had this feeling. For me, Florida was always a temporary thing. I didn't know if it was going to be five years, two years, three years, but I never planned on staying there. And then with that control room not being built, that was nail in the coffin. It wasn't even what I signed up for. So all it was a stepping stone to what I was going to do next, and I didn't know that URM is what I was going to do next, but I knew that that was a necessary stepping stone, but it was a purely temporary one. Did you see it that way?

Speaker 2 (00:27:44):

I think ultimately I did see it that way, but I never treated it in that manner.

Speaker 1 (00:27:48):

Well, no, of course when you're doing something you go all the way.

Speaker 2 (00:27:52):

Yeah, absolutely. So I guess it was waiting for, because I'd made records that done okay before I'd worked with Colin, and that kind of took me down the journey to meeting him, which is another story entirely. But yeah, it was a temporary kind of thing. Wanted to, because I was still working with Colin when I started working, I started taking production gigs at the same time as still engineering things for Colin. So Colin did a machine head record. I just finished recording a while, she sleeps record, and then Colin mixed that while she sleeps record with me. And then it, we were kind of yo-yoing between me working for him on some projects and then I would also do my own projects separately. So it was about time management really at that point. And then I started getting busier and that's when I just started doing more things just by myself really.

Speaker 1 (00:28:48):

How long did it take?

Speaker 2 (00:28:50):

Probably about four or five years, something like that. I'd imagine.

Speaker 1 (00:28:53):

Sounds about right.

Speaker 2 (00:28:54):

Yeah. I've never really put it on a timeline and looked at the dates, but yeah, I've just kind of gone on with it.

Speaker 1 (00:29:00):

I think that there's only so long that an assistant role can last anyways. Those roles will naturally run their course. I mean I'm sure there's exceptions out there, but if they're working the way they're supposed to work, I mean no one wants to stay the assistant forever or most people don't. If it's working the way it's supposed to work, which is that it's kind of like a super mentorship. You're helping the boss get these super important records done, but at the same time you're picking up a reputation, you're picking up knowledge, you're picking up a discography, all those things being true by the very nature of what that role is, it's finite. It can only last so long.

Speaker 2 (00:29:45):

Yeah, I guess you're right. I think that one of the last records we did together was we did a bullet for my Valentine album, venom, and that was a co-production, so we went in on that as co-production, co mix. So we did that together. Then we did the one-off song that was kind of packaged with a re-release of that album as well. We did that together and I think that was probably one of the last things we did as a duo. I think maybe Colin worked on one song on the, while She Sleeps album you are we with me as well? I think, but I couldn't tell you for sure. Yeah, I think you're right, dude. I think, yeah, it's just by default that relationship does have a finite amount of time that it will exist because you want to go and try your own stuff and hopefully you get busy doing that. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (00:30:35):

Was it mind blowing at all to get to the point where you're co-producing stuff with him?

Speaker 2 (00:30:40):

Yeah, of course it was. I can't imagine, of course it was just working with Carl was pretty mind blowing to start with because I remember being not doing very well in school, dyslexic kid. That's just finding learning very hard. And I remember my folks kind of, not despairing, but saying, what do you want to do? And I just remember saying, really want to make albums with Colin Richardson, and it somehow put enough energy into the universe and it happened. So yeah. Lovely,

Speaker 1 (00:31:18):

Lovely. Is one way to put it. When you ended up finally branching out on your own, did you get the feeling at all like you were taking a risk or a plunge or taking the training wheels off or had your career on your own already established to the point where it just made sense to do this, this is the way things were going?

Speaker 2 (00:31:41):

Yeah, it did. I do heavy metal for a living, so that feels risky for Star. Yeah, it never felt like a plunge into the unknown. Like I said, I was simultaneously making my own records while I was working with Cole. So I guess it was just a natural progression, like you said.

Speaker 1 (00:32:00):

I think a lot of these things are a natural progression where people want to know when should I quit my job? When should I do this risky move or that risky move? Or how do you start to make a living? And what I've noticed is these things all happen gradually. And for the most part, I mean if you get an offer from somebody, at some point you might need to make a rash decision. Like, alright, my band can continue. Alright, I have to move to Florida. But still those decisions that come up are still part of a gradual process that took maybe a decade or more to get to that point and to get to the point where you were even in the conversation for something like that, it was very, very gradual. And I think that getting from the point of zero to making a living at it or getting paid is also very, very gradual. And so if for people listening, if they're wondering, how am I going to know when to quit my job or how do I do that? My answer is really, you'll know. You'll know because it'll naturally be at that point you'll have no choice but to quit your job because you're making enough money at production that it makes no sense to keep your job. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:33:13):

Definitely. I used to be a web designer, I went to university and did computer science and I wasted a lot of time doing that, but it's all part of what you end up being I guess. But yeah, I was a web designer and there was definitely a moment where I was making more money out of doing demos for bands. So it was like, oh, I just remember one day being asked the question, what do you do for a living? And I just went, I'm a record producer. I just remember very specifically saying it and going, I'm not a web designer anymore. So I guess that's what I'm doing. And it still sounds daft when I say it out loud. Now, if you go anywhere, and I don't know the bank or a proper place where sensible people do jobs,

Speaker 1 (00:33:58):

Real people from the real world,

Speaker 2 (00:34:00):

Those guys, and you get asked the question and it's kind of like, yeah, I'm a record producer and it always sounds weird coming out of my mouth. Still even saying it now to you sounds weird.

Speaker 1 (00:34:09):

What about it? It's a fake job or

Speaker 2 (00:34:12):

It just sounds weird, doesn't it? It

Speaker 1 (00:34:14):

Just, it's just weird.

Speaker 2 (00:34:15):

It's still weird to me that I'm lucky enough to be able to do it. That's probably one of the reasons I'm so enthusiastic about it.

Speaker 1 (00:34:22):

So I have two opposing viewpoints on luck that I think are both right. On the one hand, I don't believe in it. You make your own luck, you work hard, you network, you put yourself in the place to where these opportunities can take place, and then you do your best to make the most out of them so that your reputation and your work can grow to the point where other opportunities come your way. But then on the other hand, I look at luck in that you can't control the audience. For instance, if you happen to be working on a record that does really, really well, that's not in your control, that's the luck that you happen to meet these people at the right time in history to where the audience was ready. Or the luck is that you happen to meet whoever it was that introduced you to Colin and that Colin, it's your luck that Colin was ready to meet you. He could have already had somebody at that point in time, totally outside of your control. There could have already been someone inhabiting your eventual position and it could have never happened. You could have met Colin on a really bad day and that would've been it.

Speaker 2 (00:35:28):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:35:29):

There's so many, whoever it is that introduced you to, not the person who introduced you to him, but the person who introduced you, the person who introduced to the person who introduced you to him, that's where luck comes into play, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (00:35:44):

It does. And I guess as a kind of side note, to bridge your two theories, you've got to be ready if it happens and it's like game on. So you do make your own look in that respect. So it's, I think you're right, both sides of your brain are right there. If that opportunity comes along, you've got to not sleep until you've finished all the tasks that will impress that person. That's what you've got to do.

Speaker 1 (00:36:11):

Yeah. Basically what you're doing is you're not disrespecting this lucky opportunity that came your way.

Speaker 2 (00:36:16):

Every now and then the universe throws your ball,

Speaker 1 (00:36:20):

And that's your way of saying, thank you. Thanks universe.

Speaker 2 (00:36:23):

That is it. That's it. Yeah. That's how you say thank you to the universe. You try your hardest and not sleep until you've done the thing that it's given you the opportunity for.

Speaker 1 (00:36:31):

It's interesting, a lot of people talk about gratitude and doing all that stuff and positive reflection. I don't do any of that stuff. I've always thought that the way that you show gratitude, whatever that means, is by making the most of an opportunity. It's kind of like if someone gave you a gift, a really, really meaningful gift, how do you show appreciation for the gift? You say thank you. I mean, that's neither here nor there. Do you use the gift and actually let them see that you actually use it in your life? If you just say thank you? I mean, everyone likes to be thanked, but that's not actually, it's not showing any real appreciation for the gift that somebody gave you. And so on a grander scale, I feel like if you get this gift of an opportunity, the way to truly show gratitude is to make the most out of the opportunity you've been given. I don't believe this on a cosmic scale or anything like that, but I do think that for our own psychology, it's important to appreciate the opportunities that come our way, but to me the most profound way to appreciate it is to make the most of it.

Speaker 2 (00:37:36):

Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, that's it. If you do get that little pocket of luck, then grab it and absolutely say thank you by doing your best with it.

Speaker 1 (00:37:47):

Yeah, because that element of luck, that's the thing that is super, super rare I think. Tell me, do you ever, this has happened to me. I'm curious if it happens to you. So we have a lot of similar friends both been in this for a while now, not like ultra veterans, but I guess at this point we're veterans.

Speaker 2 (00:38:11):

Yeah. Well, I dunno about you, but I've been doing it longer than I haven't been doing it. So

Speaker 1 (00:38:15):

Yes, at this point, and even on a smaller scale than being in the industry, even URM, I've been doing URM longer than I was even at Florida. We've been in it for a while, and one of the things that happens when you're in it is you make friends with a lot of people, people who have had successful music careers because they're in it too with you. They're also a part of your world. And I think it becomes easy to think that that's reality. I mean, it's our reality, but

Speaker 2 (00:38:46):

Our own little micro universe, that's what it is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:38:50):

And that it's less rare than it actually is to make this stuff work for you because everyone we know had it work for them. That's something that I do try to remind myself of that this shit is incredibly rare. I just happen to know the incredibly rare group of people who made it work.

Speaker 2 (00:39:09):

Yeah, man. Yeah, it is rare, and that's probably one of the reasons that it does sound odd when you say what you do for a living. It's make heavy metal records and I fucking love it.

Speaker 1 (00:39:26):

Yeah. Isn't it a great thing to be able to say?

Speaker 2 (00:39:28):

Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:39:30):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast, then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month nail the mixed members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:40:22):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster to I Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality, multi-track cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. So tell me about Treehouse.

Speaker 2 (00:41:41):

It's not really a brand or anything, just I was once making a record with a band and they were making of our album thing and the room that we're in now kind of has wooden walls. I dunno if you can see, but they were more wooden.

Speaker 1 (00:41:55):

Looks like a cool room

Speaker 2 (00:41:57):

And it is quite small. And this was the first room. And on their video, the guy said, well, here we are in the tree house. And I thought, that sounds quite cool. It's cool. Wooden walls, I'll call it tree house. And then, yeah, that just became band, started putting it on demos, triage studios and stuff. And it was just this one room that had an ISO cab in another room and a couple of cabs in a shed essentially. That's still this room, but I've kind of pimped it out quite hard now. And this is my mix room and then the biggest studio, it's got an SSL in it now. And to track really good drums in there and make albums,

Speaker 1 (00:42:37):

It looks like a gorgeous, gorgeous studio From all the photos I've seen and then the reputation from people that I know who have gone there is that it's a great place.

Speaker 2 (00:42:47):

I've tried to make it the most comfortable place that I can to record it. And I think that's really important. A comfy artist's going to do their best work. They're not worrying about anything, whether it's the way their headphones sound or whether they want to track the vocals in the room with me or it's just the drum sound coming out. The speakers sounds incredible. I wanted it to be comfy in every aspect. And yeah, I think we've kind of got that. The reason it looks, the way it looks is it's actually a modern building, but basically bought two dilapidated churches from eBay and got all the wood from churches that had been knocked down

Speaker 1 (00:43:29):

EBay. Shipped you the churches?

Speaker 2 (00:43:31):

Well, no, we had to go and pick up the churches on a trailer.

Speaker 1 (00:43:33):

Well, you had to go pick to use a helicopter.

Speaker 2 (00:43:36):

No, a trailer. And then, yeah. Have you ever been in a bad sounding church? I haven't

Speaker 1 (00:43:42):

Wait, but hold, how do you pick up a church in a trailer?

Speaker 2 (00:43:45):

Big ass trailer dude. So basically was things like pews and wood paneling from the church. It'd all been like as these churches, I don't actually remember where they were, but yeah, it's kind of like a job. Lot of church would. It's very heavy metal, isn't

Speaker 1 (00:44:02):

It? I've never heard of this before.

Speaker 2 (00:44:05):

You can find all sorts in eBay, man. But yeah, so that's why the wood looks so kind of, it looks

Speaker 1 (00:44:12):

Note to black metal bands.

Speaker 2 (00:44:14):

Yeah, yeah. No black metal bands. Please

Speaker 1 (00:44:17):

Not note to black metal bands.

Speaker 2 (00:44:19):

Joking apart. Yeah, just thought it was an interesting kind of way to get the room to sound good with some wood paneling. It's a prefab building, so it's essentially a modern building that had absolutely no aesthetic to it. It was concrete blocks, so it was either going to be get some wood paneling on there, work out some way of diffusing the sound. It sounded like a big old spring when I got in the room. And so obviously the church stuff has loads of carving in it, so it's like natural diffuser straight away. It was just a crazy idea really to do it. And then it started happening and then eventually it looked beautiful. So there we are.

Speaker 1 (00:44:57):

Yeah, it really, really is beautiful. I'm wondering with Colin, I know that he doesn't really have his own studio or he didn't have his own studio, and so it involved working in rented studios the whole time. Through your experience in being in all these different studios from small home setups to the nicest places imaginable, did that guide you at all? Were you paying attention to, artists tend to work well at this studio, but not really at this one. What's the difference? And did that inform how you went about designing and building Treehouse on some level at least?

Speaker 2 (00:45:38):

Yeah, definitely on some level. Everything that went in there, I wanted to kind of be modular as much as possible. So that, do you remember in Florida that studio painted black that we ended up in?

Speaker 1 (00:45:53):

Do you remember that? Where you guys went to do the guitars?

Speaker 2 (00:45:55):

Yeah, yeah. Where we ended up doing the guitars now they had a big, I think it was an E-Series six K in there and it must have had 48 channels on it. And we started on channel one and two and by the end of tracking guitars we were on to 28 or something. The channels had just started frying. Every channel just started getting some kind of buzzing or be static on the channels. And we were just monitoring two channels. So we made our way all the way up the desk. And I remember thinking, this is a dangerous way to run a studio because you don't really want one desk running the show all the time. You need to be able to record modularly. So if the desk went down, could you still record? Is that something you still could do? And that was something that I definitely was in my mind when I put Treehouse together in as much as we got Outboard Pres, we've got a separate sidecar, which is like an Aurora audio sidecar, which is, I dunno if you're familiar with Jeff Tanner from Aurora Audio.

Speaker 1 (00:46:58):

No,

Speaker 2 (00:46:58):

But he was one of the original guys that worked at Neve in the seventies.

Speaker 1 (00:47:04):

But I love Auroras.

Speaker 2 (00:47:05):

It's basically his go on a BCM 10, like a 10 73, 10 81 kind of vibe. It's like a mismatch between the two. Anyway, that's modular, so it's a sidecar, but it's modular so we can always kind of record if something breaks, we can always record. And that was something that I was always quite mindful of until recently when I bought Andy Snips, SSSL. So now the whole studio

Speaker 1 (00:47:31):

Is piped through that full circle.

Speaker 2 (00:47:34):

So I've gone full circle, but we could still completely bypass the console if we wanted to and record everything straight into tools. So it's still possible, but it's lovely to have an SSL in the room too.

Speaker 1 (00:47:46):

And there is something cool about having Andy Snes, SSL.

Speaker 2 (00:47:49):

Yeah, that's had some cool records made on it, right?

Speaker 1 (00:47:52):

Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, that room you were talking about where you experienced that board. We had an experience with that board too. Oh, did you? On a job for a cowboy EP where the same exact problem with the channels

Speaker 2 (00:48:08):

Or just slowly burning out throughout the day

Speaker 1 (00:48:11):

Or some just didn't even work and then the studio doesn't exist anymore, so I don't feel bad talking about it. We generally don't talk shit on this podcast, but that studio is long, long gone, so they got a tech in and the tech didn't know how to fix anything and so we did lose an entire day out of a two day project, just record just a five song EP of drums.

Speaker 2 (00:48:37):

I remember the job for a cowboy guys being around. I remember that.

Speaker 1 (00:48:41):

Yes. So we went to that room. That's what happened. We went to that room, you guys were using my room. We tried to record that EP there and had that problem with the board. I knew that you guys went to that room a month later or something. I didn't realize you guys had the same problem and they never ended up fixing it.

Speaker 2 (00:48:59):

Yeah, maybe not. I mean that's definitely something, a bit of advice that I'd give anyone. If you're trying a brand new room that you've never worked on before, try and avoid using the line amps on the desk if there's any way possible because it's the first question that I'll ask if I go into a new room that I've never worked in before, and I'll probably ask the question with a bit of a smile on my face and it'll be kind of which channels on the desk actually work, which ones work. It's not the other way around. I don't want to know which ones have intermittent faults. It's like which ones actually work. And there's some great studios in the uk, they've got some really well maintained SSLs and Neves as well. There's always faults on the Line Amp and if there's any way to avoid them, try your best to

Speaker 1 (00:49:44):

Analog gear is going to analog you. That's what I call it getting. I like that because getting analog, it's a blanket statement because it could mean anything. It could mean that the level itch it spits out is radically different from day to day. Same settings. It could be just channels that don't work. Could be what happened when Colin was mixing us on that Neve and we got three songs done and then the Neve just erased all the recall information, all the automation and everything.

Speaker 2 (00:50:20):

That's gross.

Speaker 1 (00:50:22):

And we had work to do on those three songs. Those were, you know how it is, the first three songs are kind of warmup to a degree. It wasn't until the fourth song that we were really in a groove. And so the idea was always to go back to those first three and fix 'em up a little. I mean they still sound awesome, don't get me wrong. It's still Colin Mix with Andy guitar tones, so it's still great. But it wasn't finished, but the Neve decided it was finished.

Speaker 2 (00:50:51):

So you got analog.

Speaker 1 (00:50:53):

Yeah, I got analoged. I've analoged a few times. I think that that's something that, you know how there's this holy reverence for analog gear and a lot of it comes from people who have never used it before. Just read about it a lot. And the one thing that doesn't get talked about a lot is that there's a lot of problems that come with it. Like yes, some of it does sound amazing. Sure, but there's a whole other side to it. The other side being that you kind of need to know how to work equipment on an electrical level and how to troubleshoot it, fix it, or you need to have a friend who is really fucking good with that stuff on call.

Speaker 2 (00:51:32):

Running a mix analog now would feel pretty scary to me

Speaker 1 (00:51:37):

For those reasons, for

Speaker 2 (00:51:39):

Those exact reasons. Because I remember printing an analog mix and looking at the waveform and then just as an experiment, I decided to print it again like the next day. Nothing had changed,

Speaker 1 (00:51:52):

But a lot had changed.

Speaker 2 (00:51:54):

This had definitely changed. It definitely had changed and it sounded very similar. Very similar, but I mean you could just see the waveform was different. I mean it's scary now. The ability to be able to recall stuff two years down the line, as long as the plugins still work. That's invaluable today, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (00:52:14):

I was just having this conversation with Andrew. That's the biggest thing for him or why he switched is even if you take the best notes, the best notes,

Speaker 2 (00:52:24):

Those capacitors don't care.

Speaker 1 (00:52:26):

Yeah. It's still never going to be exactly what it was when you go to recall it.

Speaker 2 (00:52:30):

For sure.

Speaker 1 (00:52:30):

And that drove him nuts. Dry me nuts too with

Speaker 2 (00:52:34):

The way everything is now. Everyone needs a different mix for this or we're just going to recall the mix and we're going to change this thing just for this particular thing. Maybe a band have got a sync on something and they just want to take all the screaming out the mix or sure you've got stems, but being able to open the Pro Tools file and it still be the same is just invaluable. You just need it now. It's not an option. I mean, there's still plenty of guys out there doing analog mixes, don't get me wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it and they are doing a fantastic job, but print stems and you'll be fine. But just the ease of it now and it's good enough now as well. That's the big factor.

Speaker 1 (00:53:13):

Yes,

Speaker 2 (00:53:14):

Mixing in the box entirely is good enough now. It's brilliant.

Speaker 1 (00:53:18):

There's nothing wrong with doing an analog. I just think that people should know what they're getting themselves into. If they're coming in. It's not this romantic thing. I mean, there's problems on both ends too. I think on the digital side, you need to know a little bit more about computers at the end. You just do or you can buy a Mac. There's no system that just works. That just works. There's going to be troubleshooting no matter what you get involved with. And so you just have to know what the problems are for what particular platform or method you're trying to go on. It sounds to me like you're just interested in whatever works best, whatever's most efficient and sounds best, that allows you to do your work the best you can

Speaker 2 (00:54:05):

And not shout at it in any way. Just have a nice calm day at work. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (00:54:10):

Well, it doesn't shout back.

Speaker 2 (00:54:11):

No, it doesn't shout back, but it does throw up DAE eras. That's this equivalent of shouting.

Speaker 1 (00:54:16):

So changing topics a little. One of the things that you mentioned in the pre-interview is you learned hard way that your body cannot survive on a lack of sleep. This is a very personal topic to me. Many beginners try to cram as much into their days as possible and they ignore keeping the body healthy. Which again, that's a very personal topic to me. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of this to you and what you do to try to keep a balanced schedule because I know that you have a family and I know that you have a busy ass production schedule.

Speaker 2 (00:54:55):

For sure. Love to talk about it. I guess it probably brings in one of my other passions in life as well. I'm not one of these guys that gets up in the studio before eight o'clock in the morning. I'm not an early riser,

Speaker 1 (00:55:07):

So you're not a psychopath.

Speaker 2 (00:55:09):

But I do have kids, so they get me up early. So by the time I get into the studio between nine and 10, my brain's going, it's not groggy. I've had to answer a billion questions and probably tie some shoelaces and do the dad thing a little bit. I'm very lucky by the time I get into work, it'll be between nine and 10 sometimes. Obviously I'll get in a lot earlier if I've got a cramp two days work into one day, which as we both know does happen. But a regular day, sorry, between nine and 10, I'll work straight through to probably something like seven o'clock. So 10 till seven or nine till seven. And then one of the things that I try and do every day and is kind of a bit of a routine that I've got into is having something to look forward to at the end of the day that's not being in the studio.

(00:55:58):

And one of my favorite things is cooking. I love cooking. So one of the things I look forward to is my evening meal, and I'll probably finish around seven o'clock and start constructing the evening meal for me and my wife. And that's kind of an anchor to my day, and it just means that I have some time completely out of the studio. I tend to not listen to music. I'll probably listen to something like a Joe Rogan podcast while my wife's getting the kids ready for bed. And I just love cooking. So that's kind of a little bit of the, it's like a treat at the end of the day, and I think that's something that's really important to me because it means that I'm eating well, so I'll make sure that it's chock full of good stuff. It's something to experiment with every day.

(00:56:42):

So sure, everybody, we will have some mainstays that we eat. There'll be something that we'll eat once a week or something, but I try and make something different every day. Just throw something together that's different. And I'll think about it throughout the day, even though it's abusing up little bits of brain cycles, but it's like when you're waiting for something to render or it's like, I wonder what I could do tonight and stuff. So yeah, I find that's probably, I feel it's probably quite good for my mental health as well. If you're not careful, you can just sit in the chair and just keep going and then you blink and it's like your eyes are stuck stick together. They've been open staring at the screen for so long and stuff. So yeah, that's something I find really, really helps.

Speaker 1 (00:57:25):

I imagine that that gives you a buffer between turning off work mode and then being in family mode and hang out with the wife mode.

Speaker 2 (00:57:33):

It totally does, and it means that we will sit and we'll enjoy meal together and we'll talk about the day and I'll get a couple hours that's just grownup time chilled and I'll get to see the kids. They'll be getting ready for bed.

Speaker 1 (00:57:47):

That's so important, man. So many people in these high pressure lines of work lose their relationships or marriages because they don't make that time and there's a lot of sacrifice that has to go into a career. But I think that what people don't realize sometimes is if your relationships fall apart because of it, the career is not worth it. And sometimes you don't really realize that while you're working on the career, but those things are in some ways a lot more important than the career. And so you need to tend to them and nurture them like a plant almost. I think

Speaker 2 (00:58:27):

Very poetic.

Speaker 1 (00:58:28):

I really do mean it. We're in an industry that promotes workaholism.

Speaker 2 (00:58:32):

Oh yeah. I made myself Ill definitely several times from just refusing to sleep and just keeping going. And I think, yeah, you're right. It's important just to, you don't need to be doing more than 15 hours a day. It's just silly.

Speaker 1 (00:58:48):

And that is a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:58:49):

Yeah, I guess it is. It is a lot.

Speaker 1 (00:58:51):

That's definitely a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:58:53):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:58:54):

In the past year, started seeing a girl that's a normal human, relatively speaking. She's seeing me so she's not that normal, but normal in that has a normal routine. And so I've tried to kind of align myself with it because I'm so bad at that, have been so bad at that, and it's been very, very good for me to have hours of the day where this stops. I decided that I'm going to conform to that because I see what it does for people who do it. Their work gets better actually. It's strange. They have less hours working, but the quality of the work that they do gets better in their lives tend to get better. It's interesting how that works.

Speaker 2 (00:59:36):

I'll tell you one thing that you do get by having that buffer in the evening that I get from doing that is you usually get two most important listens in the day. It's kind of first listen that you never get that first listen again, so you've been asleep, have the rabble of getting up and you walk in and you have a listen to what you were doing yesterday. And that listen is invaluable because you can probably, if you write everything down that you're thinking, that can be your list for the rest of the day. If that song needs finishing for that day, that pretty much if you finish that list, it's going to be damn near finished. But by having that break and having a complete kind of chill conversation, cook some food, listen to bit of a podcast or something, or watch an hour of TV maybe, and then go back to work for a couple hours.

(01:00:24):

So maybe go back from, I don't know, 10 till midnight or something like that. Then you get that second, you get that first listen again, second time round and your perspective slightly different. So you get a couple of having a break or it would be different for different people. And if they wanted a break in the middle of the day and just went for a walk or something and then came back, you get that second listen. Well, you get that first listen a second time and they're invaluable. So yeah, it will make your work better if you do break it up.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):

Have you noticed that buffer also allows you to be more present at home? That time that you're spent cooking, you're focused on the cooking and nothing else really other than whatever you're taking in podcast wise. And then that way, once you're actually hanging out with the family, whatever pressure from work is carrying over is no longer there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):

Just take it out of your brain for a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):

Yeah. By the way, have you heard the Lex Friedman podcast?

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):

No.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):

He was a guest of Joe Rogan's if you're listening to the Joe Rogan podcast. But since Joe Rogan moved to Spotify, I just didn't really necessarily follow him because I was hearing him on YouTube and he's not on YouTube anymore. This guy Lex Friedman, who I discovered through Joe Rogan, his podcasts are on YouTube and he interviews a lot of the same guests, a lot of the same types of guests, but the conversation is far more intellectual. I think fans of the Joe Rogan podcast would really like the Lex Friedman podcast. It's getting pretty big too. And I mean, he gets some heavy hitters like Elon Musk on there and stuff. A lot of the same

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):

Heavy

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):

Hitter, big deal motherfucker guests go on there and the conversations are amazing. You may want to check that out. Just a suggestion.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):

Yeah, we'll check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):

So past the interview, and I want to hear about this, you mentioned that you went to grab Vietnamese with Colin early when you're working with him, and you asked him what's the key to a great mix, and he said that you have to be able to hear what you're meant to hear when you're meant to hear it. That kind of speaks to a philosophy of understanding mix, but also technical stuff like automation for instance, and how things are eqd. Has your interpretation of his answer changed at all or progress as you've come along?

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):

It was funny. I expected this proper complex answer for him when I asked that question. And it was quite Yoda, and I think he was hungry too, so he just kind of brushed off the question, but it always stuck with me. It's a really good fundamental to live by when mixing. I mean, you've got to be able to hear everything when you're meant to hear it. A classic example of that is, let's say there's a section where there's a big kind of gang vocal section and it's a big woe or something, and then the chorus flies in over the woes. Okay, so let's say you've got four bars of woes and then the final chorus kind of flies in over these new woes. Well, you've heard the woes. They're there. So they've, they've got to take a backseat because the chorus has come in. So it is, as Cole said, you've got to hear what you meant to hear when you meant to hear it. So you don't want to take the woes out completely, but with fine automation, you can all of a sudden balance that section so that your brain knows they're there because it's heard them full whack. So you just need to keep giving a little bit of those woes with the chorus and that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):

And this is something that I guess you develop with your tastes and experience, knowing just how much you have to have the woes in. And also, one thing you just said that I want to key in on is there's a little bit of psychology going on, and I don't know if you do this consciously, but the fact that the woes already happened, so the listeners already familiar with the woes. So when they come back in and they're not as loud, they don't need to be because their brain already understands them and is already recognizing them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):

Yeah, totally. So you can capitalize on that. So let's say that the woes when the front and center stage, they're nice, thick, vocal sound. Well, you can thin it right off when the chorus comes in because you're many be listening to the lead vocal. So you can maybe just have an element of those woes, say for instance, so it's not just volume automation, you can use the equalizer to help you out with that too.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):

Do you think that that works really well effectively because you introduced them in full range before?

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):

Yeah, I think you're right. The psychology is, you've already heard them like that and your brain thinks, yeah, they're still going. They're still, wow, still going. But it's not really, it's just kind of like you're cheating

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):

Because otherwise, and I'm not saying that there's anything wrong, no rules. So there's nothing wrong with bringing something in for the first time, but if you bring it in for the first time and it's not full power, it might just be a texture, it might just be a layer as opposed to part of the hook, which sometimes woes are part of the hook. Do you approach lots of aspects of the mix like that, of do something one way so that you could do it a different way later?

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):

Maybe? It all depends on the mix, dude, it's one of those, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):

Well, yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):

I guess if something needs to take center stage and at some point later on needs to be a bv, then that's a classic example of when to do something like that. Or if let's say that something is reintroduced in a quieter section, then it can totally be presented in a totally different way, caked in reverb and delay and a little bit of flange, but it's still there, but your brain remembers it from before, but it's there kind of off in the distance somewhere. That's another cool trick. But

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):

Do you still automate as much as you automate it on nail the mix? By the way, anyone listening, Carl did, I believe it was May, 2018 or April, 2018 nail the mix with a bullet for my Valentine, and it's maybe it's our longest episode ever. If not, it's one of the longest episodes ever. We had to stop actually, because NRG kicked us out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):

Yeah, I remember I had to rush the end. It was kind of chafe.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):

Yeah, I

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):

Had to import settings that I wanted to talk through.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):

I remember you saying that you could have gone for two more hours, but I mean to date, it's one of the most intricate nail the mix sessions we've ever done. So I recommend that if anyone wants to basically see an automation masterclass,

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):

I dunno, I don't feel like I did a lot of automation on it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):

Dude, you did.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):

I remember doing a lot of automation really quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):

How much nail the mix do you watch?

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):

Not a lot. I'm kind of quite busy, so sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):

Alright. No, no, no, sorry, involved. I'm just saying you have to know that relatively speaking, especially at that point in time, we have barely covered it because we would get to the end of a nail, the mix and then people would just throw a little automation on there, but you spent hours on it. So I realized that for you on a regular mix, that seems rushed, but remember nail the mix isn't a real mix that's getting released. It's just a class. So you did a ton. I think that we've only had two others who have gone kind of that deep Will Putney was one of 'em, I don't remember who else. But not many people go that deep on automation. I'm just saying.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):

That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):

I think your perception of it is different than ours. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):

Okay, cool. Yeah, I definitely like to do a lot of automation. It's very much kind of cityscape automation lanes for me,

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):

Cityscape like that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):

Yeah, I always say it's kind of Manhattan skyline. I dunno. I like to consider everything and have a certain element of control over everything, but not in a over control way. It's just kind of like I'll automate every section of the song, most instruments and of every word, of every vocal, probably something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):

A lot of people, and this is just a matter of philosophy, there's no right or wrong, but I'm curious. A lot of people say that they try to work with dynamics processing in order to be able to do less automation. It's not that they don't do it, but they try to handle it a lot of the basics through that. Why do you not do it that way?

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):

Well, I kind of do it that way as well. So when it comes down to automating a vocal, say, I'll try and get it as kind of stationary as possible. But then it's silly things like by the time you've got it as stationary as possible, there's maybe too many breaths happening because obviously with that much game reduction it can get annoying and sometimes the breath is super cool. So it's like having an element of control on that. Sometimes you don't want the breath to be louder than the vocal, and then you want to make sure that every word has, because once you've flattened everything, the fronts of the vocal all of a sudden. So where a vocal comes in, it doesn't have that kind of, because flattened everything and you've got about 50 L ones on everything. There's no, there's no kind of actual front. So then you've got to go the other way and you have to generate front. So it's like the first word of a line needs to have that front that draws you into the line. And if everything's over compressed, which it kind of needs to be to get the tone, then you've then got to put the dynamics in again yourself. Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):

Yes, absolutely. And that's actually the first person I heard that from actually was my partner Joey Sturgis. I remember him telling me a long time ago that he wants to be the one adding the dynamics.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):

Yeah, it's a good way to think about it. He

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):

Wants them to be his decision, so that's why he likes to flatten everything. I mean in addition to the tone, he has a vision for what the dynamics should be and so he wants to be the one to add them, not some machine basically.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):

So if the guitars come in and the vocal comes in on after the one, you've got a little bit of room to give those guitars more of a front, so it's like, and then the vocal comes in. So you're in control of all of that with automation. So yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):

So I remember you telling me that a mix for you can take three days.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):

You can't mix a song in less than three days IL

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):

And you're not talking the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):

Yeah, it usually takes it. I'm joking. I've recently just done a couple of test mixes and they both took me two days to do them. Day on the backing track day on the vocals, and then that final listen in the morning on the third day. That's usual for me. It's usually two days and then fresh, listen in the morning and then get onto another song, something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):

How do you feel about test mixes?

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):

I think it's good. I mean, I know a lot of engineers and a lot of producers are like, I'm not doing a test mix. You either want me or you don't. But I just done a test mix on a record that I'd produced and I still think it was the right thing to do for the band to put it out so that we could get different colors come in on the test mixes. So I think it's a healthy way to just see what could happen to the record.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):

I consider the test mix scenario to be a lot like actors and auditions. Some actors won't audition. The director just knows that's who they want. And then lots of actors who are great have to audition for roles and they all say that they hate it and they all say that most of them they don't get. And that reminds me a lot of test mixes. They also feel like you can't really go all the way in an audition. I mean acting is already pretend, but an audition is really pretend and so they feel uncomfortable. And there's something pretend about a test mix too, because you're doing it somewhat in a vacuum. You're kind of guessing to degree what it is that they want.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):

That's kind of half the fun too, isn't it? So you get it and you've also, you'll receive a rough mix, so you'll get the picture roughly speaking, and that doesn't need to be treated as gospel, but that's kind of what the band are probably thinking, isn't it? So as rough as that rough mix will be, you've got essentially the key there. You've got a map of what everyone's imagining coming back. And then I find it quite fun. You can just, I like to deliver it. It's a finished record, so it will be delivered at a good volume and everything and I'd be comfortable with it. So I think that's the key with the test makes give it absolutely everything you've got. And I have an internal, it's not a clock, but an internal feeling when it's done and that's when I don't feel ill listening back to the whole song, I get a feeling in my stomach and it's like, oh God, that's not right at all. Once all those feelings have gone,

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):

It's going to be pretty good that, yeah, I enjoy the kind of fun of it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):

It's interesting to hear somebody say that because I've heard a lot of people say they don't feel like going all the way because it seems kind of like a waste of time. A lot of people will say get it 80% of the way there. The band knows what they're in for with you, but pointless to go all the way because what if they hate it and you did it for no reason. I kind of like your philosophy better. I like your philosophy better. Just go all out and out. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):

And if you have an idea, put the idea in there too. Why not? As long as it's not way off piece or something. If you've got an idea, just kind throw it into why not. You've got to give it your all on a test mix, man. Because I think it's going to be more common than not in the future, I would say. What's your vibe on it? What's your vibe on it? I mean because just quickly, I guess it's like, does it really matter the name on it on a mix anymore? Do people buy albums because it was mixed by some guy?

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):

No,

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):

I don't think so either. It's all about trying to get that vision that the band originally had and trying to make it as bombastic and on fire as possible so that when they listen back to it, they're like, wow. And I think that's potentially how you're going to win. It's not a competition, I suppose it is a competition, but win a test mix because giving 80% on a test mix seems like a bad idea to me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):

I do think that they're going to be more common because there's a lot more awesome mixers than there ever have been.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):

Yeah, for sure. Man.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):

I think that people generally didn't really buy records of a mixer either, but I do think that people were spending so much on records that they wanted to feel comfortable with their investment.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):

And so they knew that if they just went with this dude, like a call in for instance, you know what you're getting.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):

And maybe they weren't as commonplace because everyone didn't have their own studios and their own rigs at home and you'd have to rent a room. So yeah, I never really thought about it like that. But

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):

How do you learn to deal with rejection? I mean when you, rejection is a big part of this whole thing and test mixing by definition is going to involve some rejection. Rejection is a part of this whole career. How do you deal with it? How did you learn to deal with it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):

I guess if you do the a hundred percent thing and you do your best thing and it's not right, then it was never right for the band anyway. So you would've ended up, I dunno, you wouldn't have ended up being the right person for the job. So onto the next, I guess the one thing that does, if you put in for a test mix, if you don't find out for a while, that can leave you in a weird limbo. Have you ever had that where you've kind of done something and it's like, oh, we'll find out in about two weeks and yet for two weeks you're thinking, have I got

Speaker 1 (01:16:48):

It? I dunno if I've got it. That's what happened when I didn't know if I was going to get a record deal or not. Those were a stressful three weeks. I had to submit a music video to Monte Connor that he was then going to play for the owner and the president and they were going to decide at this meeting whether or not my band was getting offered a deal. And I remember I sent it to him and he got it on a Friday and he wouldn't tell me when the meeting was.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):

So three weeks, nearly a month of flying through limbo

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):

For three weeks. It's like, is life going to change? Is it not going to change? And I just kept hoping. I would wake up to an email from him and then I remember one day I had a dream and he called me up and he said, we're offering you the deal. And I was so fucking happy. Then I woke up and I was so mad. Yeah. I was like, why? I was so mad at my own brain for doing that to me.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):

Tricking you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that this is happening. I wake up and it's like, Nope, none such luck. Then he called and said, we're offering you the deal. But yeah, I know that limbo sucks.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):

Yeah, limbo. Limbo on anything like that. So basically an answer to your question, I guess the rejection thing doesn't really sting too much because it's kind of like, right, well that's how I wanted it to be anyway. So if that was wrong, then so be it. I guess onto the next, and I was wrong for the job. And that's something that I think you should, in this job, you need to be pretty aware of whether you are wrong for a job because sometimes it's kind of like, oh, I'd love to work with that band and then that's working really well. Everything about that's working really well and maybe I am wrong for the job. That's something to be aware of, I think. But yeah, I think it's the limbo. That's the hardest part. Maybe you go down, you meet a band and you have a chat with them and it's kind of like, oh yeah, we're thinking of making a record and then you don't find out for a couple of weeks similar to your record deal scenario, you do feel a little bit in limbo.

Speaker 1 (01:18:56):

Yeah, it's

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):

Definitely a weird feeling, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):

It's a very weird feeling. I don't like not knowing where I stand.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):

I've seen a lot of people in the URM group get crushed when something doesn't work out with a local band or they lose a mix or something. And I think I get it. It sucks. There's nothing fun about something not working out, but you really do need to get comfortable with it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):

Definitely. Because

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):

It's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):

Yeah, it's going to happen. And sometimes it's the right thing that it happens. You weren't correct for the job or whatever it happens to be. But yeah, it's just part of the job, I guess. Anything creative.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):

Yeah, and also I think how you deal with it, people remember that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):

Yeah, I think that's definitely, I mean, just kind of ask the question, was there anything in particular that you didn't like about it? And see if there's anything positive you can take from the situation. Weren't really into the drum sound, but everything else was cool. And if you love the drum sound, then don't change a thing, but maybe have a look at the drum sound, see if there was anything that you can kind of glean off the experience. I guess that's like anything like this. If you find yourself in an uncomfortable kind of position, which has something to do with some work that you've done, then I guess you can learn from it. And that's invaluable, an invaluable lesson in this game for sure. Constantly learning.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):

Absolutely. Well, Carl, I think this is a good place to end the episode. I want to thank you for taking the time to hang out. I know we've been trying to do this for a while. I'm glad we finally were able to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):

Yeah, man, it's been really fun. It's been great.

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):

Yeah, it's always fun talking to you man. Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy and of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot aca DMY. And use the subject line answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.