DWILLY: The Truth About Music Careers, The “Hyper Punk” Sound, and Autotuning Guitars

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast, and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest. I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line. Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM Podcast. My guest today is David Wilson, AKA Dwilly, who is an artist, producer, songwriter, vocalist and multi-instrumentalist DiUS. Worked with some stellar artists such as Trevor Daniel, Travis Barker, Swego the child, Noah Cyrus, Mike Posner, bad Babi, and many, many more. Julie has also been very involved in digital creation, having made six top 10 sample packs for Splice along with several others. I introduce you Julie, welcome to the URM Podcast. How's it going? Going good, man. How are you? Doing

Speaker 2 (00:02:14):

Great, man. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:02:15):

My pleasure. So let's just get into it. You said something in the pre-interview that I've often thought about, which I actually strongly believe, so I want to get into it. You said that getting in the door isn't the hard part,

(00:02:32):

And I've thought about that a lot. I've been around for a minute now and I've seen a lot of people think that say the child of a celebrity has a career because their parent got them in the door, or this person is having a great career, he has rich parents, or this person has a cousin that worked at Capital Records, so that got them in or any number of, they're only in because they know somebody, and I've always thought to myself, that doesn't mean shit. All it means is somebody gave them a chance, but that's it. Nobody does anybody any favors past that. If you can't sustain a career, if you have no reason to be in the game, just knowing somebody is not going to sustain you at most, it will get you an opportunity and that's it. What do you think? Is that what you meant?

Speaker 2 (00:03:29):

That was pretty much right on. It was just like, well, talking about what you were referencing as far as how you get in the door. If you have that connection or that dot, that's connecting you to the next thing. That's obviously setting you up for success, but that's not, you have to execute after that, you got to deliver. You got to prove that them putting you on was worth it. But in most people's cases that don't have a connection or they don't have a door to go through, it's a lot of work. They have to maybe do things that other people don't have to do.

Speaker 1 (00:04:03):

That's correct.

Speaker 2 (00:04:04):

But at the end of the day, it's just like it doesn't matter how you get through the door, it just matters if you get through the door

Speaker 1 (00:04:10):

And what you do once you get through the door. You can't argue that the child of a movie star doesn't have an advantage over someone who doesn't have any connection whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (00:04:22):

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:04:23):

However, the child of that movie star becoming successful has nothing to do with whose child they are or having a hit song that has nothing to do with who your parent is or how you got in the door that has everything to do with the public deciding that they love the song enough to

Speaker 2 (00:04:43):

That is true,

Speaker 1 (00:04:43):

Play over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I think though that getting to the point of getting to the door say that you're starting from nowhere, no connections whatsoever, that can be pretty daunting I think, but it's not as difficult, I think, as it's made out to be. If you're doing quality work and you're networking and you're being intelligent about it, proactive and consistent, if people are resonating with your music, it's only a matter of time before somebody gives you a shot, I think.

Speaker 2 (00:05:20):

Absolutely. I guess in my shoes I had, obviously I had help along the way. It wasn't financial help, but it was mentors and teachers that were pushing me to go to a certain direction, so the choice for me was very clear on what I wanted to do as far as a career, but kids that really don't have a lot of influence and a lot of push from, let's say their parents or I guess any kind of figure in their life, I feel like the most hardest When people reach out to me and they're like, how do you get started? How do I do this? You just have to hone your skill the best way possible. And like you said, network, there's really not much else you can do, and obviously with the emergence of social media and the internet, there's definitely a lot more advantages today as far as getting discovered, but yeah, I mean I feel like most people that don't have friends in the music industry or in the entertainment industry, it's just like a rat race,

Speaker 1 (00:06:21):

But it is a winnable rat race.

Speaker 2 (00:06:23):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:06:24):

I'm just saying this because I've seen so many people who come from having zero Connects whatsoever living in a third world country could come over here and are now fucking killing it, whether they're as producers or session musicians or whatever, as artists, whatever it is, I've seen many people move across the country to LA with nothing and create careers. I've seen lots of people in really small towns with coming from the poorest background you can imagine with just talent, work ethic and I guess knowledge of how to use the internet. I've seen them do that, and I guess the point being that it's always possible. It's always possible if you have the talent, the drive and the obsession and some people skills, that part's kind of important.

Speaker 2 (00:07:21):

No, absolutely. I'm a firm believer in that. When I run into people that have a background like that, it's like it inspires me. I'm like, Jesus, I need to, he is on my level, and he started out with absolutely nothing like, what the hell am I doing?

Speaker 1 (00:07:37):

I admire the fuck out of those people.

Speaker 2 (00:07:39):

I'm like, with the resources that I have at my fingertips, I feel like I need to not waste what's been given to me when I see these other guys with nothing virtually and then skyrocketing to the point of success with nothing but access to the internet, and it's amazing. Maybe a mid keyboard,

Speaker 1 (00:08:00):

You come from a good family with good parents, right? Yeah. My parents also encouraged me with music and were great influences and I know that gave me an advantage, and so when I've seen people who didn't have that advantage go further, I'm like, damn, that is amazing. Congratulations. Right.

Speaker 2 (00:08:20):

Well, sometimes I feel like people can use that. People with fucked up childhoods and bad situations sometimes will turn to the music as a, maybe they use that as a crutch or they basically use the trauma and throw that energy into what they're doing. I mean, I don't know because I wasn't in that situation, but I'm wondering if some of those situations, their abilities and their drive was a result of any of that.

Speaker 1 (00:08:51):

Well, the people I know who have come from that scenario have told me, I've had a lot on the podcast, have told me that one of the big motivators was to never go back to this kind of situation.

Speaker 2 (00:09:03):

That's a better word. Yeah, motivator. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:09:05):

So there's that, but then also the trauma that they experienced. The only thing that really helped them deal with it is this thing called music, like the creation of it, and so they just had to, it's a unique combination of things, but once you get in the door, none of that matters. None of it matters whether or not you had a good family, a bad family, whether it took you 10 years or three months. Once you get in the door, everyone is kind of at the same starting line and then it's almost like the real work begins because then you are, let's just say then you're in front of the world, I guess then either your songs are going to connect, either your work's in a connector. Nobody can really change that or help that in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (00:09:55):

Yeah, that's what I like about the industry so much is how transparent it is. Once you get in, it's like if you're in a room with people, they don't care at all where you came from. They already know that the fact that you're there is your dope, so they don't care whether you were poor or you were rich or you're from America or a third world country. As long as you're dope, it doesn't matter. I've never, there's a formality in writing sessions where you'll be like, Hey, where are you from? But I feel like it's mainly small talk, but I'm at the point now where I've heard so many different stories that I'm kind of numb to it. I'm like, wow, that's all that matters. If you're dope, you'll get to this point.

Speaker 1 (00:10:38):

Yeah, exactly. I have friends who have done great who are high school dropouts and then others who are PhDs and they work on the same projects and nobody cares, which, because all that really matters is what they bring to the table and what is their firepower basically. I like how you put it is if you're in the room, people know you're dope.

Speaker 2 (00:11:00):

I was thinking about that the other day. It's like if you're already, however the session got set up, the work you put in prior to that is what got you into the room. So you've already established some kind of name for yourself. They wouldn't say yes to just at a certain point. I don't know where you are in your writing stage, but if they've already said yes to working with you, they've probably heard your music

Speaker 1 (00:11:26):

For a reason

Speaker 2 (00:11:27):

Or somebody's trusted you enough to throw you in.

Speaker 1 (00:11:31):

This is an interesting topic because a lot of people who listen to this podcast are not in the door yet. A lot are, but a lot aren't, are working towards that as say as producers or mixers, and one of the things that comes up in q and as a lot or questions that I see in our online groups is people have trouble in sessions. This is kind of on a local level where they feel like the artists just won't take their suggestions. They're not interested in anything they have to say, and my thoughts are they don't trust you. That's what it is. I mean, maybe they're shitty artists that don't know how to take any suggestions, but what really is happening is they don't trust you yet. Absolutely. Because you haven't earned that trust, and when you do get a little bit further, the only way that you will have gotten further is people will have trusted you enough with records that matter and songs that matter that it will kind of vouch for you. Your track record will vouch for you to where when you start to get new clients, they'll come to you with that trust, and so that's not to say they'll always just take every idea you have blindly. It's to say that you will at least get the trust or the respect you deserve, whereas when you haven't proven yourself yet, what do you expect?

Speaker 2 (00:12:53):

I mean, you can't expect much without if you're starting rock ground zero. I mean why they, you haven't proved anything. It's kind of like a harsh reality. I think there's two sides to it. That's not saying that you shouldn't respect your skills and your craft enough to stand up for your opinion, of course, but like you said, yeah, they probably are hesitant on trusting your opinions on the track because if they're working for you from the first time and you haven't necessarily established a name for yourself, then you have to put in the work and maybe you have to sit in the copilot chair for the first couple sessions. Maybe they're guiding you and then maybe an appropriate time to where you can suggest things is a couple sessions in because if they came back to you for a second session, they liked it in some sense.

Speaker 1 (00:13:40):

Something went well,

Speaker 2 (00:13:41):

Yeah, something went, you wouldn't have a repeat session if they absolutely hated it, so you did something right in the first session. If they came back to the second, and at that point you can start easing your way into manning the cockpit.

Speaker 1 (00:13:53):

For people who are working on a local level, just keep in mind a lot of your clients probably coming to you out of convenience and no offense, no offense at all, but that's just reality. They probably can't afford who, if they had to write out dream list, you might not be on it, which you might be on it one day, but if you're working at a local level, you're probably not on it yet, which is fine. Everybody starts somewhere, but just keep in mind that people are probably coming to you out of convenience and financially that's what they can afford, and so trust doesn't play into it yet. So what you just said is if they came back though, something went right, and that's actually true at all levels. They came back, something went right. Just out of curiosity, does anything for you change mentally when you're working with somebody who's super established versus when you were working on local stuff or stuff at school? Are you just doing the job?

Speaker 2 (00:14:57):

I obviously try not to be swayed in either direction, but I mean, I think it's unavoidable. You're human. If you're working with somebody that is big or is famous or whatever, there's going to be more pressure. You're going to probably feel like you need to prove yourself a little more as opposed to if you're working with an artist that may have a little less pressure. The thing that I've been trying to do in sessions is, and I go back and forth, I'm not consistent with this, but looking at the calendar, if I don't know their name, I don't want to look them up because I don't want to see the numbers. I just want to meet them, make music and not be persuaded.

Speaker 1 (00:15:38):

No preconceived notions.

Speaker 2 (00:15:39):

Yeah, I don't know if that's the right approach all the time because I think you do need to be prepared in a session and at least maybe know some of their music before going in so you're not sounding like a dumb ass, not knowing who they are. But there's something to be said about that, imagining that everybody you're working with is just nobody, so there's no egos. It's just chemistry in the room. I think in a perfect world, I would like to have the same attitude towards either the bigger artists. I want to give everything I got to both. You never know who that small artist is going to be one day.

Speaker 1 (00:16:17):

Oh, you definitely never know.

Speaker 2 (00:16:19):

How

Speaker 1 (00:16:19):

Do you balance being prepared for a session with walking in as a blank slate? Sounds like two opposite things almost.

Speaker 2 (00:16:28):

Some days I just lose track of time and I have no choice but to go in with a blank slate, and that's fine. Sometimes some of my best songs have come from writing from scratch, but typically I find that the sessions run smoother if I've prepared a folder of ideas or little loops that I think belong in the lane of that artist. So I would say it's half and half. I'll start a session with a blank canvas, and then the other times I'll have ideas and we'll basically start building something from something as simple as a guitar loop or a little synth loop.

Speaker 1 (00:17:05):

Put me in your head space when you haven't done anything, you're walking in as a blank slate with a complete stranger and there's just a blank dos screen in front of you. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:17:18):

That

Speaker 1 (00:17:18):

Just seems nerve wracking,

Speaker 2 (00:17:21):

Frightening, right?

Speaker 1 (00:17:22):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:17:22):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:17:23):

Yeah. So where does your head go? How do you start?

Speaker 2 (00:17:26):

If we're talking past the points of they walk in or you walk in, you do introductions, you talk for a little bit,

Speaker 1 (00:17:33):

But then there's a point where you're sitting there and there's a blank screen,

Speaker 2 (00:17:38):

So I typically ask them, is there a process that you like to do or is there a workflow that you prefer? And usually they're just like, I'm cool with whatever, which is great, cool with whatever too. I go with the flow. Sometimes they only want to hear, and this obviously varies by genre, but sometimes they only want to hear beats and only want to hear instrumentals. They don't want to sit through me tinkering around on a thing and trying to come up with a cool little idea. And then the other times, which is more common is they want to just jam and vibe and find some kind of instrumentation that they can write over. Then I guess if there's another small piece of the pie that makes up how things get started, and this is more rare, and artists will come in with already pre-written lyrics, at least like a hook idea, and they'll be like, Hey, I think we should make something around this idea. I have in my head, I have to be flexible with what they want to do, but if it's an artist that I've been working with before, I'll take the reins and be like, I think I have an idea. Let me hop on this synth, or basically I'll just sit down on an instrument and start jamming and I'll be like, yo, let's just vibe. Let's jam. Let's play for 10 minutes. Let's fuck around, have some fun, see if anything comes out.

Speaker 1 (00:18:57):

What does jam mean?

Speaker 2 (00:18:58):

In my studio setup, I have a piano, three tier synth rack, and everything's plugged in ready to go, so I'll literally just hop up after we've talked. I'll be like, all right, man. I'll hop up. I'll start playing around and I'll be looking at him for his expressions and feedback, and I am basically just feeling his energy, seeing if they like anything or whatever, and I'm just going off that if they get excited about something, I'll be like, cool, let's lay that in. So I'll literally go back to the go to Ableton, hit the record button and play something in, and then that's how it all gets started or it all starts and then from there you just start layering more stuff in. But that's obviously my workflow and I'm sure there's many other scenarios that people use.

Speaker 1 (00:19:49):

Oh, I'm sure. It's just with writing sessions. It's always fascinating to me how complete strangers can get in a room and just get started.

Speaker 2 (00:19:59):

It's very weird. I've always thought about that

Speaker 1 (00:20:00):

And I'm sure that sometimes the chemistry is just like, boom, there it is. Chemistry

Speaker 2 (00:20:05):

Sometimes

Speaker 1 (00:20:06):

And other times not.

Speaker 2 (00:20:07):

Yeah, it sucks when it's not up to where you would prefer it to be at, and in that situation it just kind of sucks. There's not really anything you can do. You can try to crack a joke or you can try to clear, you can try to lighten the mood, but if they're just not really your type of person, okay, not everybody you're going to write with is going to, you're just not going to make a great song every time. That's just reality,

Speaker 1 (00:20:32):

And I'm sure both parties understand that. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:20:34):

A lot of the pressure that goes into a session writing with somebody new is like, oh shit, I have to make a great song on day one. I got to set this up to where their team and their manager is going to be super impressed and they're going to want to come back, but not necessarily. I think at the bare minimum, just be yourself and be nice and at least make a friend if you can at least do that and establish that you'll have the room to expand even if the session goes horribly and you don't get any good song or you have half a hook, at least you have their number and you can meet up again when there's less pressure. Obviously already met them, and there's been multiple times where that has happened to me where it's like, I don't get anything on the first session, but it's okay. They come back and then I'm like, okay, you know what? Let's try this out. Let's try this method. I have some ideas that I think you might like, and then they usually one of them, and then we go from there.

Speaker 1 (00:21:33):

There's a big difference between a bad session and bad chemistry sounds like. Totally. How do you determine the difference?

Speaker 2 (00:21:42):

I mean, from my understanding, a bad session doesn't necessarily mean bad chemistry. It just means you couldn't come up with anything good, and it's a throwaway song. Bad chemistry doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a bad song. Sometimes you'll have bad chemistry with somebody and write an amazing song, but let's say that person is a complete dick, bad chemistry, you don't like him, or maybe your personalities just don't click. Maybe you have nothing in common, you probably won't want to work with them again. And I think in most cases, bad chemistry probably will result in a bad song because usually with bad chemistry, you don't agree on certain things or they don't necessarily like any of your ideas and you might not like their ideas, which is fine. You need to find out who you don't like and do working with in this industry, and it's good because if you find somebody that you don't like working with, you can take note of that and then

Speaker 1 (00:22:37):

Steer clear,

Speaker 2 (00:22:38):

Keep that in consideration for next time, and I don't think that necessarily, you don't have to go around badmouthing them, but just note for yourself, I shouldn't work with this guy again.

Speaker 1 (00:22:48):

Yeah, there's no reason to badmouth, I mean, not every partnership is meant to be. And speaking of throwaway songs, I mean you were saying that you might make a hundred or 200 songs a year and 10 or 20 will come out mean, so by that metric, most songs are throwaway songs, but I guess maybe there's a difference between a song that you really like but just doesn't come out versus the throwaway song.

Speaker 2 (00:23:16):

There is a difference. I mean, sometimes the songs that I've labeled as throwaway songs get cut, so I guess you really don't know what a throwaway song is. I mean, you can say it's a throwaway song, and I think by that meaning you think it's bad, but hey, somebody else might think it's good, and the whole point of all this is music is subjective, somebody else might really fuck with it.

Speaker 1 (00:23:38):

Have you had that happen where you are convinced that you guys just wrote a piece of shit and then it goes somewhere and then the opposite where you're like, man, this song, this is going to do fucking great and then nobody cares?

Speaker 2 (00:23:55):

The latter. That is more common where I'll typically be like, man, this song is a hit. This is a smash. This is the best song I've ever written. Nothing will happen, and now that continuously happens and I'm numb to it, and for that I try not to get excited anymore. The first thing you said, which is writing a throwaway song and then somehow it gets cut. The things that I send out these days, I don't send out shitty songs. If I write a shitty song, I just won't bounce it

Speaker 1 (00:24:23):

Fair enough.

Speaker 2 (00:24:23):

So in a different time, if you ask me that question, maybe my opinion would be different or my answer, but at least if I'm sending out demos, I want them to be of a certain quality, so my chances of it getting cut are improved.

Speaker 1 (00:24:37):

This is why I don't believe in ranking musicians saying the greatest ever or things like that because one thing that successful musicians of any type tend to do is not show you what they're bad at, straight up the stuff. You don't get to see what they suck at. You only get to see what they're great at. There's a lot of stuff that every musician sucks at. No one can possibly be great at everything. It's just people figure out what it is that they're really good at or what their best output is, and they lean into that, and then the stuff that's not up to standard, you don't hear it. It's gone

Speaker 2 (00:25:18):

Pretty much.

Speaker 1 (00:25:19):

I think maybe earlier in someone's career, they're not as defined in who they are and maybe they're not as good yet, so the line between what they really like about themselves versus what they don't like is a little more blurry. They haven't totally figured it out yet.

Speaker 2 (00:25:32):

If you don't have a strength yet, I think you should make it a priority to have a strength. If you're in production or writing, have something that people are like, oh, is that the guy that's good at blank? Because if you're a producer and you're just kind of okay at everything, I feel like it's hard to differentiate yourself from the pool of producers that exist already. I think it is important to, if you don't have a strength, find something that you can make your strength and then you exert that. What do you think yours is? Keys, piano or I guess in the production sense, it's melodies as opposed to lyrics, and I'm okay with admitting that because if there was a gun to my head, I would probably give the same answer. If somebody's like, Hey, we're going to kill you if you don't make something cool, I'd probably hop on the piano. That's the first thing I would do, and that's because that's what's most comfortable for me.

Speaker 1 (00:26:24):

If people don't know what their strengths are, if they can't think of it, maybe that's a good thought exercise. If someone said, I'm going to shoot you in the head, if you don't do something cool, what's the first thing you do?

Speaker 2 (00:26:34):

And that first thing is that's what it is. Boom.

Speaker 1 (00:26:37):

Yeah, piano. And you started that when you were five? I did, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26:40):

Classical training,

Speaker 1 (00:26:41):

Man, classical training is an interesting thing. It's so removed from the way that modern music is made, but the melody in classical music, just the melodic structures and the harmonic content is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (00:26:58):

I think that's the common denominator, just simply melodies and understanding of the movement of melodies and the rhythm of melodies, how the left hand speaks with the right, and in other words, how the high melodies speak with the low, the base in the soprano, it's like how they talk to each other.

Speaker 1 (00:27:17):

How do you see the link between, say you're playing a Tchaikovsky piece that was written in the 18 hundreds on the piano, and obviously it's got left hand and right hand stuff all over the place, point, counterpoint, bass, melody, harmony, everything happening at once, and then modern music where it's not a flowy movement-based piece, it's something that repeats with a very defined melody that's not like going through 30 minutes worth of theme and variation. I understand that there's a link for you obviously, because here you are, but I want to understand it a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (00:27:59):

I think it's tough because as time goes by, I think they get more separated as certain styles come into play and certain styles evolve such as all the new TikTok music, which is leaning into the hyper futuristic over the top digital sound. That is to me as far removed as you can get from classical, but there definitely is continuity with classical. I think the things that stay consistent are something as simple as a motif. Motif is basically just the staple melody of a song that I don't even know what the definition of is, but it's basically just a lead melody that you repeat that is used as the main theme of a song, right?

Speaker 1 (00:28:47):

I mean, that could be a riff. That's

Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

A riff, yeah. Anything that you literally, anything that you would typically bring multiple times into the song. In other words, you can call a hook, and I think the earliest examples of that in classical were your intro motif. They would start with that, and then they'd have 15 minutes of whatever the fuck the middle of that song is, and then they bring the motif back as the final cadence or whatever. They bring that back as the idea and people are like, oh, I recognize this. Whenever you hear a classical song and you recognize it, that is the motif. That's the whole point of motif.

Speaker 1 (00:29:25):

It's interesting because the first thing that came to mind was Tchaikovsky piano concerto as such a recognizable intro motif and then off into whatever, and people who are less familiar, they all know Beethoven's fifth, and that's another perfect example. I think that motifs are actually the best part of orchestral music, at least to my modern ears.

Speaker 2 (00:29:52):

Yeah, I agree. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:29:53):

That's the part that I will always rewind. The development of the piece is cool too, but I mean if you look at what has made its way into say, the best soundtracks like a Han Zimmer soundtrack or whatever, it's more about motifs really cool ones. I think that that's what has stuck, interestingly enough, so I think you're right. I

Speaker 2 (00:30:15):

Mean that's true. If there's been anything that has survived whatever it is, like 500 years of the existence of classical music, it's those motifs, and that's the reason why pop culture keeps bringing them back in movies and commercials and it's timeless. If you can still create a timeless motif or a melody, then there's nothing stopping your song that you just put out from still being relevant in 500 years. It's difficult, but it's not impossible.

Speaker 1 (00:30:46):

A great motif transcends genre, transcends arrangement, transcends production, transcends time, basically.

Speaker 2 (00:30:55):

Yep, I agree.

Speaker 1 (00:30:56):

Yeah, it's interesting that you can hear a motif from 300 years ago and be just as moved by it.

Speaker 2 (00:31:02):

Yeah, it's weird.

Speaker 1 (00:31:03):

It is weird even if the body of the piece puts you to sleep, which

Speaker 2 (00:31:08):

Kind of does cases for modern

Speaker 1 (00:31:10):

Audiences.

Speaker 2 (00:31:11):

Yep. It's crazy how that works, and I like how you said it transcends production. I always think like, oh, I got to make the production great, but if the melody isn't good and the motif isn't good, it doesn't matter what the production is to a certain extent. I mean,

Speaker 1 (00:31:26):

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:31:27):

I can't really name you. A lot of songs hit songs that only the production is good. Usually it's mirrored by a viral catchy melody.

Speaker 1 (00:31:38):

Absolutely, and I think that in the few cases where the mix or the production, sometimes it'll help it sneak the cracks or whatever get in, but I don't think those songs last very long. I think that you'll have some examples where it'll be a shiny object that gets people's attention, but without that core musical quality to it, it's not going to last. How could it?

Speaker 2 (00:32:04):

Yeah, it's flashing the pan type shit. You need that cast iron skillet.

Speaker 1 (00:32:08):

Yeah, exactly. You absolutely need that. But what's interesting to me is even though we're talking about that intellectually and we agree about that, you can't possibly know while you're writing, this is the kind of motif that's going to be around in 500 years. You can't be thinking that way. So what is it that makes you go with something? Is it just like a feeling?

Speaker 2 (00:32:29):

Yeah, that's all it is for me. It's like when I either play something or come up with something that hopefully is original, if it tingles any part of my brain, whether that's happiness, sadness, nostalgia, if it does anything, then I'll usually rock with it. A lot of melodies that are catchy but are just like, I don't feel anything from this,

Speaker 3 (00:32:51):

And

Speaker 2 (00:32:52):

That's fine too. It's just something catchy. You can rock with that. For me, it's usually like I'll play something and I'll be like, oh, that reminds me of my childhood when I was listening to Phil Collins or something. It doesn't have to be sonically like Phil Collins, but just thinking back to what a melody reminds you of can sometimes be a good indicator of if there's a chance of it being timeless, because odds are, if that melody is inspiring you somehow, it's more likely going to inspire somebody else too. Hopefully.

Speaker 1 (00:33:24):

I can see where you're coming from with that. However, I want to explore something you said about trying to be original. Do you think you can try to be original? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:33:32):

I think you can try absolutely

Speaker 1 (00:33:34):

Successfully.

Speaker 2 (00:33:36):

I was wondering where the other side of that question was. I've heard people say that it's impossible to be original because you're basically just regurgitating.

Speaker 1 (00:33:45):

I don't buy that.

Speaker 2 (00:33:46):

I don't really have a solidified opinion. I think I believe you can be truly original.

Speaker 1 (00:33:51):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:33:52):

Yeah. I think originality doesn't have to come from you being a genius musician. It could be something as stupid as you flopping your hands on the piano in a random manner and then fire melody comes out.

Speaker 1 (00:34:05):

Exactly. I think it comes down to your personality, like your musical personality and just like you don't have to try to have a personality as a person, you just have it. It is you. No matter what you do, you, I kind of feel like creativity is a similar thing. No matter what you try to come up with, you're still going to just come up with what you come up with, right? You're not going to come up with what somebody else came up with. You're going to come up with what you came up with, and either it's going to sound completely unique or it's not, and I feel like you don't have much of a say in the matter. I feel like all you can do is just write music and listen for that kind of like what you were just saying. Does it tingle your senses some way emotionally? Just go with it. If it speaks to you in that way and you go with it, that's you being you and hopefully you have a unique voice,

Speaker 2 (00:35:03):

And to be blunt, for all the listeners out there, sometimes you don't have the luxury of analyzing a melody and really seeing if it's sparking any feelings because to be honest, most of the time if I'm pressed for time or if I'm just trying to get the idea out, I'll just play a melody and if I think it works, it works. I don't sit there for hours and be like, ah, is this the one you just got to go? You just got to go with it. And I'm a firm believer in quality of quantity, but at a certain point to where you're doing sessions every day, sometimes you just can't afford to keep on cycling through different options. Sometimes you just play a melody and if it sticks, it sticks no matter what the reason is.

Speaker 1 (00:35:47):

Well, that's kind of my point about who is it that's playing that melody and deciding to go with it. It's you, right? It's coming through you, so the originality is, and the personality is going to be there, and the thing is some people are more unique than others. They just are. I think some people's musical intuition or musical instincts are going to be cookie cutter. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:36:11):

I agree. I agree with that a hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (00:36:14):

And some are going to be fucking out there without having to try, especially in a situation like the one you're talking about, I think that that's the best test almost. We don't have time to sit here and cycle through shit, so we're just going to go, this is cool going with it. Well, whatever that is that you were like, didn't have to think about, this is cool going with it, that's your originality coming through and it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:36:37):

Yeah, it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (00:36:39):

Yeah. I feel like anytime I hear or have been around people who are trying to be unique or something, it always ends up being contrived. The people who've been around who are the most unique, they don't have to try to be, they just are. They're in their own lane basically.

Speaker 2 (00:36:57):

Yeah. I think it's tough to admit that sometimes if you are the type of person that struggles with producing unique material, whether that's a melody or anything, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the day for you.

(00:37:10):

If somebody in the room is more unique as far as melodies, use them as the weapon and build it around that. That doesn't mean you're not going to make an amazing song together. I think it's just a hard part about collaboration is being okay with somebody else having better melodies than you and letting them run with it. I think it's natural for everybody in the room to want to use their melodies, but you have to be objective at a certain point, and that's something that I've learned to be okay with because I think I tend to be more controlling in a room given my, I guess, understanding of music in theory, need to let that go because I realize that a lot of these songs that are coming out and a lot of these artists that are blowing up have no musical understanding and they're going purely off instinct and feel, so it doesn't matter if you have classical training or not. You have whatever you're spitting out into the mic has the same chances of being amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:38:11):

What you're saying right now makes me think of two things. Number one, what you brought up about wanting your melody to be the one and learning to recognize when someone in the room has the better melodies. That reminds me a lot of an issue that comes up a lot on metal records between guitar players, and you always want the better guitar player for the part to be the one who tracks. That doesn't mean that they're the one who wrote it, it just means they're the one who just sounds right when they play it, and this is a thing that is like an eternal battle and bands that have been around for a while are comfortable with this, but this is definitely something that as a guitar player, you have to get used to and it's a conflict that producers need to be ready to know how to solve because it's going to come up when there's more than one guitar player. So that whole idea of if you're not the one, the other person is, who cares? Maybe it's the drummer who plays it best, who the hell knows, put the guitar in their hands, whoever sounds the sickest, they're the ones

Speaker 2 (00:39:22):

Who

Speaker 1 (00:39:22):

Are getting tracked

Speaker 2 (00:39:23):

That simple.

Speaker 1 (00:39:23):

It's the same idea. And then the other thing that makes me think of is back to the beginning of the conversation, we were talking about finding a strength and going with it. Well, your strength might not be amazing melodies, but that doesn't mean you don't have a strength out there. To develop your strength could definitely be something else. It could be

Speaker 2 (00:39:44):

It's honing the melodies or finding the melodies that other people play, maybe because there's a ton of incredibly talented producers that don't necessarily come up with melodies. Their energy inspires other people to come up with great melodies, and then they harvest that, who said, you have to come up. You don't have to come up with good melodies as long as somebody else in the room is. That's all you need.

Speaker 1 (00:40:04):

Oftentimes, people who come up with really great stuff don't know how to develop it. For instance, they don't know how to pick it. They're just the vessel through which it comes through and they need some sort of a partner that's more down here on earth, I guess in some ways. Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month, nail the mix members, get the raw multi-tracks to a new song by artists like Lama, God Angels and Airwaves. Knock loose OPEC Shuga, bring me the Horizon, Gojira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point.

(00:41:03):

Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air. And these are guys like TLA, will Putney, Jenz Borin, Dan Lancaster, toy Mattson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like game staging, mastering low end and so forth.

(00:42:00):

It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more in the nineties. And I don't know, before that, I'm just thinking of when I was a teenager, there was a lot of press out there about these solo artists or these bands with one genius in the band, like Nine Inch Nails Trent, and they never talked about the fact that Trent Resner was actually a team, or they talk about a band like ministry with Alex Jorgenson.

(00:42:52):

They never talked about the fact that ministry was a team, and it's not just with those bands. This is a recurring thing, pop artists, they would make them sound like geniuses. They never talked about the fact that this song was written by a committee or was written by somebody else, produced by somebody else and constructed for this artist. Again, I don't know what it was like in the eighties, but I do know that in the nineties, this myth of the solo person who did everything really got perpetuated. And I think that it poisoned a lot of people's minds about how stuff gets done in the real world. In the real world. I don't think there's that many people I know who can really do everything. It is super rare.

Speaker 2 (00:43:37):

Very rare.

Speaker 1 (00:43:38):

Yeah. Do you know anyone that can literally do everything

Speaker 2 (00:43:42):

Not to the best capability, not to where mean it would be ideal. There might be situations where people can, but it wouldn't be ideal because maybe a couple pieces of the puzzle aren't as professional as say, bringing in somebody else. And I think the whole point is if you can fill in the gaps of what your weaknesses are with people that are stronger in that area, the song is going to be better. Or maybe it's not necessarily a song because there's artists that are like, I mix and master my own stuff, or I do all the drums myself, but if somebody else is better, you want, don't you care about the integrity of the song more than you having your name on every single part of the song?

Speaker 1 (00:44:26):

You would think,

Speaker 2 (00:44:27):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:44:28):

You would think. When in your musical development did you realize that teamwork makes the dream work basically

Speaker 2 (00:44:38):

Pretty late? I hadn't adapted to co-writing until I was in college, and my first experience was that it was at Berkeley because before that I was doing everything myself, which I didn't have a choice because there wasn't anybody else to help me. That's why my track sucked. I didn't have anybody there telling me like, yo, this is kind of bad, and that's fine, but the sooner you realize that and the sooner you can let that go, I think the better because you can really start doing what matters, and that's cooking up with somebody that's lit and then boom, you're going to make a fire song. And it's not rocket science, just like, and that's not all the time. There are people, there are exceptions. Like you said, it's rare. There are people that can do it all themselves, and in that case, that's amazing. You

Speaker 1 (00:45:31):

Do you fuck. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:45:33):

But I don't think I have, I mean, I've done songs by myself before, but one, I don't enjoy it as much because it's like, I like the social aspect of creating, and it's also like I have doubts about what I make because I don't, usually I feed off other people's energy in the room and if they're like, whoa, that's cool, there's my validation that melody works. But if there's nobody there to tell me if this is cool or not, I have trust issues with myself, and that's why I always pick writing with other people.

Speaker 1 (00:46:13):

That makes sense. So you know that you're better in a collaborative environment.

Speaker 2 (00:46:18):

Yes. When it comes to writing, and that's not a blanket statement for everything musical, I think production wise, I work better by myself and I think at this point I would've had a duo production partner if I felt like there was too much lacking. But I think I'm comfortable by myself producing to where I don't think I Sometimes it benefits hugely having somebody else help on the production, and I think it's great having multiple hands on production, but referring mainly to writing. Yes, I need people.

Speaker 1 (00:46:55):

So I'm curious what your impression was at Berkeley. I went there too. Dropped out. Did you finish?

Speaker 2 (00:47:02):

I did.

Speaker 1 (00:47:03):

Wow. Actually it was super weird. One of the few. And you've got a career. This is crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:47:08):

I feel like it's the opposite of most people in a normal college will regret not finishing, but I regret finishing because it's not cool to finish at Berkeley.

Speaker 1 (00:47:17):

Well, to be fair, I do know some people who finish and have careers, but you know what they say about Berkeley is you're supposed to drop out, but obviously, obviously it's more of a joke than anything else. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (00:47:33):

But there's some truth behind that. All my friends dropped out and most of them are killing it.

Speaker 1 (00:47:38):

What do you think the truth behind it is? Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (00:47:42):

I actually don't know. I would say maybe something has to do with you get a headstart in the real world because while you're getting tested on Counterpoint, you're actually out in LA meeting people and starting to actually join the workforce, which is the music industry. I don't know if that's the answer. My other I, that's part of it. My other theory is, well, I think people that feel confident enough to leave Berkeley don't need the rest of the education if you don't. I mean, because really, I didn't go to Berkeley for the music classes. I went to Berkeley for the networking and I met my manager there, which is the most crucial part of my career. Without him, I definitely wouldn't have been where I am. I would've been in a different spot. I don't know where that spot would've been, but without the people that I met and the friends, because I came from a small town in the south where music isn't like, it doesn't flourish like it does in the big cities.

(00:48:46):

So I didn't really have anybody to guide me. So getting into Berkeley was basically me emerging, figuring my shit out, meeting music people and picking what I wanted to do as a career. Bouncing off what you were saying, I think people that drop out of Berkeley and are successful that they didn't need to go to Berkeley in the first place probably. I mean, maybe what they did at Berkeley set them up for success, or maybe they met a couple people, but I'm definitely a believer in not necessarily needing to go to college in the first place or graduate. The other reason for that is just accumulating all that debt. Who wants to be walking around with more than a hundred thousand dollars in loans and then you're trying to start your music career? That's daunting.

Speaker 1 (00:49:39):

It's very daunting. I know for me, I just felt like the career was ready to start. So it wasn't really a question. It was like I knew I had to take the step to pursue my band, which is the band that got signed. So it was a good decision in the studio, which within a few years was working with, not big, but still signed underground metal acts. It wasn't really a debate. It was, I'm ready now. This has to happen now. There is no reason to stay here any longer. So this isn't true for everybody, obviously. So think one of the reasons that people who stick it out tend to fail. And again, like I'm saying, this is not true for everybody. It's obviously not true for you or some of my other friends, but by and large, I think one of the main reasons is that a lot of people go to Berkeley, hoping that Berkeley is going to give them, is going to fill that musical void. It's going to give them that direction or give them that thing that they're missing or that musical drive or whatever it is that successful musicians or successful producers have that they don't have. They think they're going to get it in school. And you don't get that in school. Well, you get in school or networking opportunities and information,

Speaker 2 (00:51:04):

Right. Basically it. That's it. That's it. Yeah. I would even go to say or suggest reconsider going, why You should have a goal in going to college. You should have a goal. There needs to be a purpose. And definitely they're not going to tell you how to get a job afterwards. They're not just going to give you a job unless you're

Speaker 1 (00:51:28):

Working for them.

Speaker 2 (00:51:30):

Unless you're really trying to say this in an appropriate way, but unless you're sucking a teacher's dick it, you're not going to get a job. You can try your hardest. But because I graduated and I was like, wow, this is surreal, this is great. What do I do? There's nothing. And the only solution was move out to la. I feel like I don't even need to say it, but it's the hub where shit is happening. The things you're going to get out of it are the people. That was the biggest thing. Obviously there's some skills you're going to learn. There might be some tricks you pick up on the way that'll help you in your career. But there wasn't a lot for me the other day. I was playing a piano with a dildo for a TikTok, and it's for a single that I did for S Waco. And in my head I was like, wow, I went to college and I'm doing this shit.

Speaker 1 (00:52:28):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:52:29):

Who would've thought? I literally have a degree in electronic production and design and I'm playing piano with two dildos for a video for a song. And that's something they're never going to prepare you for that. So definitely go in knowing at least have preparation that you probably will not be set up. You have to do that work while you're there. You have to come up with a plan while you're there, not after and even better have a plan before you go into college. What do you want to do? Sometimes it's really tough and overwhelming to pick what you want to do when you get there. So much cool shit. There's like film scoring. There's like, oh, do I want to be a performer? Do I want to go on a tour? Do I want to be a songwriter? Do I want to be a producer? Damn, I could do music law. There's all these things. But I think what helped me is I knew what I wanted to do before going in. I knew I wanted to produce. That's the only reason why I went to Berkeley.

Speaker 1 (00:53:27):

What was the plan?

Speaker 2 (00:53:28):

I didn't really have much of a plan. I guess after high school, I auditioned, I got in my plan was to, I guess in my head somehow make money by making beats and selling them because the only knowledge I had producing was in a hip hop sense where you would sell beats to rappers and they'd pay you money. And it's obviously, now I know it's such a more wide array of opportunities to make income as a producer. I didn't know the term producer was more of an umbrella for, there's so many things you can do with that and maybe that's more as an executive position, really honing in an artist's sound for an album, or maybe that's more in the recording side and you're more engineering. And sometimes producers don't even the old school term for producer was typically like you were the arranger, right? Back in the sixties, seventies, you were arranging parts for a band. You weren't necessarily the one on the computer. Well, there wasn't computers.

Speaker 1 (00:54:34):

You weren't necessarily the one operating the tape machine, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:54:38):

But what I wanted to do was somehow make money. I didn't know how I was going to do it, but somehow make money by monetizing what I was making in Ableton. I figured it out at Berkeley. I started charging students production fees for their songs and then they would drop them. And I was like, oh, cool. Well at least I can cover my beer money with this. I wasn't charging a lot. It was more of like a favor at that point. But obviously now on a bigger scale, once you're working with labels and there's budgets involved, you can definitely make a living.

Speaker 1 (00:55:12):

Did you give yourself a plan B?

Speaker 2 (00:55:14):

No. Good. I just full cent it.

Speaker 1 (00:55:16):

Plan B is a bad idea.

Speaker 2 (00:55:18):

I had no plan B. Yeah, I think so too. I think if I had a plan B, that idea would be constantly developing in my head and pressing up against my main goal. So I think it is important to focus on your plan A,

Speaker 1 (00:55:35):

I think plan Bs are usually more realistic than plan, and so therefore, in some ways easier to achieve. The moment you start really thinking of a plan B, that's probably what's going to come true because it just way easier to get there. Also feel like worrying about a plan B takes time and brain ram away from plan A and there's going to be some people out there who don't have a plan B who are going to be going for the same thing. So I mean, we were talking about advantages and disadvantages early on in the podcast. I think giving yourself a plan B is setting yourself up at a disadvantage

Speaker 2 (00:56:20):

A hundred percent. The people that you said that don't have to have a plan B are the people that are already wealthy or they already have an easy way to penetrate the music industry. So it boils down to last man standing. Nobody cares if you struggle through life. Nobody cares. You have to deliver. You have to make good music. And if you're putting your plan at the forefront of if that's your main objective, then you'll have a much easier time than worrying about any other thing. And maybe you say, maybe give yourself a timeframe of, because reality will, I do have friends that haven't been able to figure out a way to make an income with music, and they've had no option but to adapt and have some kind of a substitute income while still pursuing their plan A, but push that off as long as you can, and that doesn't mean getting a side job is a plan B. That just means that's something you

Speaker 1 (00:57:27):

Got to survive.

Speaker 2 (00:57:27):

You have to survive.

Speaker 1 (00:57:28):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:57:29):

So don't be discouraged by that. You can't, because not everybody's going to be going to able to have a sustainable beginning with music. At first, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (00:57:41):

Yeah. What I mean by plan B is a secondary career, not like a job that you have to do because you're a human that requires food and heat.

Speaker 2 (00:57:51):

So plan B for you is essentially giving up.

Speaker 1 (00:57:54):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:57:55):

Essentially.

Speaker 1 (00:57:56):

Okay. Yeah, except for the situation where plan B feeds plan A and plan A feeds plan B. So you have a musician who is also a producer and uses the studio to network for their musician career and their musician career to network for their studio, and it's intermingled. I've seen that work many, many times. So yes, it's true. The exception to me is if you can make plan B work synergistically with plan A, then more power to you. That's great.

Speaker 2 (00:58:28):

Yeah, that's true. And there is some overlap with if you're still in music, I mean there's still ways of intertwining your plan A with plan B. Absolutely. So it's not necessarily the worst thing, but I think you would agree by saying it's still important to focus on the plan A as long as you can unless you run out of

Speaker 1 (00:58:51):

Time and

Speaker 2 (00:58:51):

Money

Speaker 1 (00:58:51):

Options.

Speaker 2 (00:58:52):

Yeah. Yeah. That's the factor. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:58:54):

I guess the thing is, I guess with my exception there, with the Plan A, feeding the Plan B and vice versa, they're still all plan A. If you're a musician with a studio or a writer that produces, it's the same thing. You're still just trying to make music work. It is harsh. It's just that there are going to be people who will put every single thing they've got in life into this. And while I don't like to think of art as competition, it's still competitive. You're competing for people's attention. You're competing for people to say yes to work with you. There's limited amount of budget for everything. It's not infinite budget for producers to get hired with. Nothing is infinite. That's not to say that there isn't room for a lot of people to do well. I definitely think there's room for a lot of people to do well, but need to realize, I think that the people who are really going for it are fucking killers and are going for it hardcore. So I haven't really seen too many people half as their way to the top, not in music. So tell me a little bit about classical piano. Do you still play? Does it still make a difference in your life?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):

I play less. It does, so I play to make my friends laugh. It's just funny that I can rip some Mozart in Beethoven. I don't play for pleasure personally, and I used to be so against classical, I hated it. I didn't want to play classical. I wanted to play the cool music, and classical just wasn't cool when I was a kid. I think my respect for classical music has drastically improved just because I now see the importance of conserving it, and I understand now that I took so many pieces of the equation from classical and used it in modern production. So I have more respect for it now, but I actually don't play too much of it these days, and I should.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):

Why you? What would it do for you?

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):

It was the building blocks of my creativity, and I think that's why I owe it to myself to, I don't know. I have this sense of needing to give back because classical music is what pushed me into the other genres, and I think that if I just had started straight into rock without classical, I probably wouldn't have much depth. I probably would have a basic understanding of, for instance, power chords or how to make an ordinary pop punk chord progression, but I wouldn't really know how to really extend beyond that. And I think classical, it's so rich in harmony and it evolved so much that I think just having that understanding allows you to get a little farther with other genres.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):

Yeah, I definitely think that finding a passion in another genre of music can really, really help your main genre because you're going to, by definition, have something to offer that's not cookie cutter. I think

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):

It can also hurt too in a lot of cases. How so? Because it's rigid, and I think if you,

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):

Oh, classical music.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):

Sometimes I do wonder if the extent of my knowledge with classical music is more harmful than helpful in a room because I tend to overthink things and I tend to complicate things, and that's because of the classical. I find myself needing to dumb down things more than try to make things more complex. Because the reality is people don't want complex. People want simple in pop music these days. While parts of it are complex, the overall idea is to make it simple, but it comes in handy when you need to make a part complicated within the track. The track is simple, but maybe there's a part of the track that's complicated.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):

You saying, this makes me think about, because I come from a classical background too, and one of the things that I always found difficult about writing songs like metal songs was taking a riff and just playing it over and over and over and over. To me. It would just, I'd be like, this is repeating too much and my brain would not be cool with it. But then I hear bands that I love and they'll just lay into the same riff 16 times without maybe a little variation, but 16 times with nothing else going on, and it's cool as fuck, and it doesn't get boring. But in my mind, overthinking things that they need to be too complicated. I had a real hard time allowing myself to do that. So I actually know exactly what you mean. This classical thing makes you, it programs you to not be able to repeat things or to make them more complicated than they need to be. Definitely. So one last thing I want to talk to you about. You brought up Pop, punk and rock. I want to talk about genre blending some. I feel like that's kind of where the future is headed

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):

Right

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):

Now. I don't know where 10 years from now is headed, but I definitely feel like right now, rock and other genres or metal and other genres are blending in a way that they've never really blended before. There was the way New Metal did it the way they did. It was kind of like two genres glued together. The way that it's being done now is so much more organic and you're a part of that. Is this something conscious?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):

Yes. It is kind of impossible for me to not be conscious about it just because I'm always analyzing and I've kind of paid attention and studied to how this has evolved. The first instance of me, I guess noticing the style was, and there's probably earlier situations of this, but Lil Peep back in college, I remember hearing Lil Peep. It was basically, it sounded like Nirvana melodically, but the drums were trap drums. And I was like, that's weird because I haven't heard it before. And I think it's just how these things happen is these kids are just like, they don't have a drum set or something, or I don't know what it is. Maybe they don't want to go to the extent of recording drums. So they're just like, cool, well, we don't have that. Let's make do, let's program drums and Fruity Loops and Fruity Loop with a punk style guitar.

(01:05:51):

And then it just happens. And then from there it derives into different flavors. And now you have this whole hyper punk thing, which is what I'm calling it. It's like what I'm chasing with a couple artists, including Swig of the Child. But we're basically taking memorable riffs of guitar, but sonically tweaking them and changing them to where it's not just your classic distorted guitar sound. It's like we're applying processing to make it almost sound not like a guitar. So all the slides that you're hearing within the frets of a guitar are being stair stepped because we're putting autotune on the guitar and then we're also designing the guitar to sound more like a synth. This is getting into Nerd Land.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):

That's okay. We can get into Nerd Land.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):

There's a couple plugins that I feel like are pretty crucial to achieving this sound, and I think it's some of these plugins and techniques that these kids are doing are just a huge part of it, but it's really interesting

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):

Which ones,

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):

So I feel weird saying this out loud. I feel like it's just such a secret sauce that I've been putting on everything, but there's this plugin called Standard Clip that Ween actually showed me, and it's like this sketchy Russian plugin that's like $25, but it's basically just a digital clipper, but it has this insane ability to conserve the low end while still squashing it and making it sound distorted. Kids are throwing that on their masters and on their vocals, and I've taken it to the extreme of putting out on everything. And it's crazy. I mean, this is a whole nother conversation about how distortion and loudness has evolved too. But basically where I'm at with it and where I'm trying to chase it, this genre is like it's hard sounding different because I don't know yet where it's going to go, and I'm only going off of what I've heard other kids do while still kind of messing around because sometimes the mistakes in a song are what make the song cool.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):

And

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):

I've learned to not necessarily have to fit this song into a mold of a reference or other song I heard, I'm like, damn it, this is cool, but I kind of don't like how this already sounds like another record. How can we take this a step further and really make this different?

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):

It's kind of like the Wild West.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):

No, it seriously is, and it's just like whoever does it first, that's all that matters.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):

It's interesting, man, these genres right now, I guess you call it hyper punk,

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):

Hyper pop and hyper punk. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):

Trap metal, all these weird, modern hybrid genres. Everyone I talk to who's in them is very, very dedicated towards doing something new as opposed to really badass death metal mixers that are trying to get something super precise or whatever. And it's not a value judgment at all. Everyone should do whatever art is in their soul, but I feel like the people who are doing what you do well, not doing what you do, you guys are each doing something unique, but this world that you're a part of, I feel like is the element of heavy music that is pushing the boundaries right now. It's very, very interesting. It's interesting because people have been saying for a long time that guitar music is dead or that it's not coming back, but I think that this stuff proves that in the public consciousness, there's very much room for guitar oriented music and there's very much room for heavy music. It just can't be the way that it was. It's got to be evolved.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):

I have made records that are conventional pop punk,

(01:09:50):

And sometimes it's just my own personal taste that is not allowing the song to evolve into something new because I grew up in that early two thousands pop punk era or whatever. I know how I want it to sound because I want to sound like the bands I listen to, but I'm the only thing that's stopping the song from getting to that point where it's like it's a little uncomfortable. But I think I need to be okay with being uncomfortable because that's pioneering. That's like the whole wild West. It's not supposed to be comfortable. It's supposed to be awkward and pushing the boundaries. I don't think anybody that has pushed the envelope, I think they've definitely felt confident about it, but I think there's obviously a huge sense of not knowing the unknown. It's like, I don't know if this is going to do well or I don't know if people are going to like this, and I don't even know if I like it, but hey, it's different.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):

You can't know that stuff. Even if you are taking the conventional path though, that's the thing. No matter what you do in music, there's no way to know if it's going to do well or if people are going to like it. So I feel like doing something conventional is just as much of a crapshoot. It just doesn't feel that way, but it is. It's totally a crapshoot. Music is a crapshoot.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):

Yeah. No, for real.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):

Yeah. There's literally no way to know what the public is going to resonate with or was going to resonate with the public.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):

Sometimes it's okay to do a conventional song.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):

Because everything repeats itself. That's what I've learned, and I haven't been alive long enough to really see a lot of cycles, but I'm already noticing patterns and it's like

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):

I have, and it happens, but I feel like that's all superficial stuff, like genre and the way that a good piece of music is dressed up is superficial. There's always room for a great melody or great parts. So while a lot of stuff does get cyclical, it doesn't matter. There's always room for something great to come out and that does keep on happening. Do you feel like this is all going somewhere, as in going somewhere in that this is what the face of heavy music is going to become, or where do you see this going? It's real hard for me to tell. All I know is this kind of stuff has the energy behind it that I remember in older times when the new genre came around and transformed things. I remember I was showing my age. I remember when Nirvana came out. I remember when Korn came out. I remember a lot of these things that had a certain energy around it that were unlike other stuff, and a lot of people felt weird about it, but the public just ate it up and it just felt right, and young people loved it. It was just on the outer edge of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):

Yeah, I want to say yes, but why I also struggle with knowing is because I'm not a kid anymore and I don't know what high schoolers and teenagers are listening to. I only go off of word of mouth. People come into sessions and they start talking about this artist. I'm so removed from adolescence and being a child and really knowing what's going on and what they're talking about. I'm just trusting. Basically just all I do is I see numbers and I see songs and I see them do well, and I'm like, wow, okay, this is where it's going. But regardless of whether it's doing well or not, I think it's unavoidable. And I think music is always going to push forward. Just like technology. It's like people are going to reject it at first, and maybe those are people that are stuck in their own era, which is fine and normal, but I think it's always, yeah, I think it is the new medal, and I think it's going to keep on growing, and I think the kids will be accustomed to it and it'll just be the new thing, the normal thing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:58):

I'm kind of obviously very distanced from what high school kids are into. It's not my world anymore, but what I have seen just a few years ago from videos from trap metal shows, for instance, the kind of energy going on at those shows, it's insane, is the same energy that was happening at a corn show when corn was on their first album,

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):

Like the mosh pits and shit,

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):

But it wasn't your normal kind of shit. So at these trap metal shows, you have all different kinds of kids there. I've noticed they're coming in from all different walks of life. It's edgy and it's dangerous, and they love it, and the energy is extreme and it's got a heavy energy to it. People are super, super into it. I'm just saying, it reminds me of when something like Korn showed up and it was like those same kids in the nineties, whoever those kids from now at tr metal shows would've been the nineties. They would've been at Korn shows. Yeah, absolutely. It's that same exact. So I guess that is, you were talking about things repeating or being cyclical or whatever the energy is right here is what's repeating. The sound is completely different, but the energy is what I'm noticing repeat itself.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):

I love that. Wow. I've never looked at it at that angle. So true. It's like the constant factor is the energy because yeah, popular music goes in wave of energy. The whole, I mean, in the 2000 tens, there's this huge wave of like r and b, the usher thing. It wasn't hard rap, it was more melodic. It had a beat, but Nirvana and going into the more metal bands, the

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):

Corn a few years later,

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):

It was angry. It was angry and it was like,

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):

There was a lot of power behind it and that wasn't cool. Leading up to where we are now, a couple years ago, it probably wasn't cool to do the angry edgy shit, and now it's cool. People are tired of the same shit and they're like, wow, this is cool. We haven't heard this in whatever, 10, 15 years. That's why it's cool, I guess. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):

I think also whenever the world is kind of in an unstable place, that kind of music comes back, but no matter what era you're in, there's going to be a certain number of people.

(01:16:28):

Well, yeah, and it'll come and go in waves, but there was eras where the certain number of people gravitate towards angry shit. Like in 2000. They were gravitating towards Slipknot and stuff. That was the mainstream version of this angry stuff. In 1991, it was Nirvana. In 1994, it was corn 2000, it was slip knot. There is something for people who are just drawn to a darker side, that energy doesn't ever go away. It comes back in a different form because technology evolves, musical tastes evolve, musical skill evolves, but that need, I guess, that psychological need or that spiritual need for people to have that darker, harder, itch scratch. I think that's what this is now, my uneducated opinion. That's what this is. Yeah. Anyways, man, I think this is a good place to end the episode. I want to thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):

Oh, man, absolutely, and thanks for having me, man. Anytime. It was a pleasure talking on here with you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):

Likewise.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):

Very enlightening.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):

Yeah, had a good time, man. Thank you very much. Alright, then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post some of your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy, and of course tag our guests as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's YAL at M dot aca, DEMY. And use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.