NICK RAD: Why He Loves Editing, Building a Career Without a Hit, The Power of Networking

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Hairball Audio. For nearly a decade, hairball Audio has been helping musicians and recording studios improve their recordings by offering high quality outboard recording equipment in Do-it-yourself kit form. Check out the full line of compressors, mic pre amplifiers, and do it yourself [email protected]. Hairball audio. Do It Yourself without compromise. This episode of the podcast is also brought to you by Sure, legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones and headphones. Sure. The most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure.com. And now your host, Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:00:49):

Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. I am Eyal Levi and I just want to tell you that this show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. Every month on Nail the Mix, we bring you one of the world's best producers to mix a song from scratch, from artists like th God Shuga, periphery the Day to Remember. Bring me the Horizon, Opeth many, many more, and we give you the raw multitrack so you can mix along. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of bite-sized mixing tutorials and Portfolio Builder, which are pro quality multitracks that are cleared for use in your portfolio. You can find out more and nail the mix.com. Welcome to the URM Podcast, I'm Eyal Levi, and I am getting ready to go to Nam. You're going to hear this a while after Nam, but just know that I'm about to go there and I hope I see quite a few of you there.

(00:01:46):

I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be our first time having a booth and what can I say? Stoked about it. This is also a good podcast episode. My guest today is Nick Rad and he's a mix engineer and producer from the Chicago area, and he's worked with bands like Stone Sour Skillet, artists like Hillary Duff, the Color Morale, and many, many more. But what's especially interesting about this episode and why I want you to check it out is because I think it's relevant for those of you who are looking to make this your career. It's relevant because it shows just what's possible without having some smash hit. So without further ado, I give you Nick Rad and enjoy. Alright, so Nick Rad, welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (00:02:40):

Thanks for having

Speaker 2 (00:02:41):

Me. My pleasure. I just want to jump right into it because I have a lot of questions. You work with all different types of artists and quite a few of them are at pretty high levels, but worlds apart in terms of genre. And so I am curious about this. When you look at artists like Hillary Duff versus Stone Soer versus Skillet or the Color Morale or anybody else you've worked with that's achieved a lot, is there anything in common that you find between all those acts, regardless of if they're heav as fuck or some pop singer?

Speaker 3 (00:03:25):

Man, that's a good question. I don't even know if I have a good answer of how all that came to be except for, that's kind of a long story. But me going back to the beginning of how I started doing production work and how I started coming from being in bands till I was 25, 26, and then at 26 to starting to get into production full on, I mean, the one thing that I could take away what I wanted to do when I started doing production was making just things be polished. And I think that was just my taste of how I hear music. I like things to be perfect kind of pop, and that's my taste. So I think going into my rock background, I wanted to start making records with Rock and making it be just polished, going through and taking the time to edit the drums, guitars, make sure vocals are tuned.

(00:04:19):

And so I think my work along the years kind of just gradually went into this pop, more of this pop sense here, and I started to get into some work from Ledger and the Hillary, Rachel Platin, that kind of stuff where people were, I just kind of got good at making vocalists, especially sound really good in the post side of things. So that just went into different realms of how I got all these different kinds of genres under my belt, which I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I enjoy it all. I enjoy going from the rock into the Hillary Dolphin into whatever, because a nice change for me, I feel,

Speaker 2 (00:05:01):

Well, it's interesting because I think that sometimes it actually can be a bad thing, but there's a few people outliers, and I would consider you one of them, but there are a few outliers among producers that are doing well who can jump around genres. Typically, I find that someone experiences some success in a genre and that becomes their calling card or their pigeonhole. It's blessing and a curse, and it's tough for them to move out of it, especially in metal. It's that way where once you've done a few big metal records, all the metal bands start coming to you and it's like, well, do I want to switch gears and turn that faucet off? They're just going to go to the next guy,

Speaker 4 (00:05:47):

Or

Speaker 2 (00:05:48):

Do I want to keep this train rolling? And it's actually a very serious question because if you divert your attention, the train could stop rolling. They could just go on to the next guy. So I think it's a very serious question that someone has to ask themselves, but I don't think that that many, and I consider producers, artists, I don't think that that many artists are great at lots of different things. I think they typically find their voice and sometimes though their voice is compatible with multiple styles, but it usually isn't, in my opinion. So it's kind of an outlier thing.

Speaker 3 (00:06:25):

Sure, sure. And I think too, for me, I didn't really have a big record in my career that kind of took me on to one path, and that's probably why I got into all these different kinds of genres. I was just kind like the guy that just did work, and it was just the word of mouth and that grew,

Speaker 2 (00:06:43):

First of all. I just want to key in on something you said earlier. It sounds to me like you said, the common bond is the polish, so that's what you're bringing to everything you do, and so it sounds to me like that's where the compatibility lies, is in the perfection that you'll bring to each project, but I also think that most producers don't have some huge record. We hear about the ones with a huge record because it's a huge record, but I think that they're the statistical minority. I think most producers that are employed doing well, supporting themselves and living like a respectable life, didn't have some smash hit. They did a bunch of good work for a long time, word of mouth spread and they built a career.

Speaker 3 (00:07:41):

That's pretty much exactly where I live, what you just said.

Speaker 2 (00:07:46):

Well, I mean, sure, but you have worked with some pretty large artists, so there's some people who sustain that off of local markets only. But I guess my point just being though that I think it's a myth that you need to have some huge smash hit to your name in order to make this whole production thing work.

Speaker 3 (00:08:10):

I would totally agree. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this out since 2006 is when I went full-time with Doom Product. Actually, 2008 is more of a full-time thing for me. But coming from bands that I've been in and producers that we've worked with, one comes to mind, Jason Livermore and Bill Stevenson from the Blasting Room in Fort Collins, Colorado. We made two records with those guys and just learning from those guys and their work ethic that pretty much changed my life and in how I do stuff now, and it's about the love. I just started doing it and I just kind of fell in love with it. The more you do it, obviously you get great at things and just about finding your niche.

Speaker 2 (00:08:54):

So what's funny though, about the whole speaking of the polished niche or sound, because my partner Joey Sturgis, he also for his genre of metal, he also had a very polished sound, and I remember back in the day when Andy Sleep was the big metal guy, he had a very polished sound and people would sometimes talk a lot of shit about them and just be like, every mix sounds the same, they're just hacking it or whatever. And that is the farthest thing from the truth, and I have proof that it's the farthest thing from the truth because to nail the mix, if it was so easy to make a mix sound polished and perfect, then at this point in time, we would have well over 10,000 students whose mixes sound better than Joey's

Speaker 3 (00:09:50):

And

Speaker 2 (00:09:50):

Who are on that level or on the level of any of the people we've had on who do the Polish thing. But I hear the mixes that are submitted every single month for our mix pull. We get well over 500, and I hear them, and it is not easy at all, and I know it's not easy, and it's interesting to me that people will sometimes scoff it until they kind of have to try it and then they realize that it's borderline impossible.

Speaker 3 (00:10:24):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:10:25):

So what drew you to them?

Speaker 3 (00:10:28):

I think just the fact that I could, when I started learning Pro Tools back in 2005 and six and I spent eight months basically just, I had no job and I just dove in, learned all I could, watched a bunch of videos that were at that time on YouTube and the fact that I could manipulate my guitars or my drums, whatever and make them as tight as I wanted it to be, that just resonated with me. I was like, man, this is really cool. I can make records that sound pretty cool now. So I just started doing it and the more I got into it, the more my love, and this is going to sound funny, everyone hates editing, right?

Speaker 2 (00:11:08):

They say they do.

Speaker 3 (00:11:09):

Yeah, they say, but it has to be done right. It's one of those things that just you got to do it. I mean, half the things on my website are just basically me doing vocal editing and copying and tuning for these artists, and I just have just something about it the before and after for me that's like, man, this is great. It might take me 10 hours to do one song, but it's going to be epic when it's done. That's my thing. And my pop sense of just what I like, it just kind of grew into this thing that I love. I don't know. So I'm all about, I mean, and the thing is too is if someone doesn't want that, that kind of sound that I'm not the right guy for it, and I'm cool with that, that's fine with me. It's not like everything I do is completely to the T, but I mean, most of it is, especially with the artists that I'm working with or they're all on the pop side of even it's pop rock or whatever it is, it's just going to be more, it needs to be perfect.

Speaker 2 (00:12:01):

It's interesting. I just spoke to a guy named Jack Shirley yesterday on the podcast. He's a producer out of the Bay Area and best known for his work with a band called Deaf Heaven,

Speaker 4 (00:12:13):

Which

Speaker 2 (00:12:14):

Is like a, I don't know what to call them, they're like a black metal band kind of, but he has the very DIY ethic, which is kind of very few edits. It is what it is, and his records sound great too. So what I think is important for people to realize is that what matters here is knowing who you are as a producer and having your own voice and being able to tell artists that don't fit in with that vision. We're hopefully getting to that point because obviously when you have no clients, you have to take what you can get, but working to get to the point where you can say, this isn't a good fit, and this is and should work with this band and not that band because that band wants something totally different, something that I don't do.

Speaker 3 (00:13:07):

Absolutely. There's been times where I've put bands in the direction of different producers just because I knew that I wouldn't fit what they were going for, and I'm totally cool with that. I think, like I said, it's just kind of like, it's about finding what you're great at and what you love to do and make that work basically.

Speaker 2 (00:13:26):

Did you ever regret sending a band to somebody else?

Speaker 3 (00:13:30):

It's happened maybe three times in the last 10 years, so it hasn't been great. So no, it's not a lie. The thing is basically since 2009 or so or 10, the people that come to me, they kind of know what they're getting their selves into basically. So it hasn't really been a thing where it's very often that happens.

Speaker 2 (00:13:55):

Yeah, just the fact though that you're willing to say that it, it's the same thing, just like if someone goes to Jack Shirley or Kurt Lou wanting what you do or what Joey does, that's dumb on the band's part. I remember when I was working at a studio in Florida that did all this extreme metal stuff, we would get people who wanted the Joey Sturgis sound. It would be like, well, go to Joey that you're coming to the wrong place. We don't do what he does. What he does is great, but that's not what we do. That's what you want. You're going to be sorely disappointed

Speaker 4 (00:14:36):

When

Speaker 2 (00:14:36):

You get the mixes back. And I learned kind of the hard way by taking on clients that wanted what somebody else could deliver at times, and then them not being happy and me getting frustrated, and then it took once or twice for me to realize, look, it's not even worth working with these people because yeah, you get paid, but they're not going to come back

Speaker 3 (00:15:03):

And

Speaker 2 (00:15:03):

They're going to have a bad impression of working with you,

Speaker 4 (00:15:06):

And

Speaker 2 (00:15:06):

You're not going to be able to do your best work for them because there's a bad vibe, because what they want is what somebody else can do. So if from the outset that people want something that's not in your wheelhouse, do the honorable thing, in my opinion, if you can afford to correct,

Speaker 3 (00:15:26):

If you're just kind of getting going, you're like, man, I got to take some work, then maybe you just go for it and do your best.

Speaker 2 (00:15:34):

Well, there's also the thing that at the beginning stages, there's two things that I think should be happening, but these are, let me just say that before I start pissing everybody off that, let me just give a disclaimer that I understand that this is not possible for everybody, so this is not possible for you out there. Don't get mad. I'm just saying that this would be ideal, that when you're first starting out, that your overhead is as low as humanly possible, so that even if you're not getting that much work or any work, you find a way to pay the rent so that you can say no to artists that aren't going to help you progress, or you just take those as practice sessions or whatnot, but not serious sessions so that you can open yourself up to saying yes to the right people, but it might involve not doing some paid work for a little while, offering your services for free in order to win over certain people or turning down other artists that you don't want to work with. And if your overhead is really low, that might be possible to do. And look, if you're trying to start a production career and you have three kids and a mortgage, you may not be able to do that, but if you're 21 or 22 and maybe you have a little family support or figured out how to live for cheap and have a part-time job, then it's way easier to do this.

Speaker 3 (00:17:23):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:17:23):

So you were a musician first, right?

Speaker 3 (00:17:26):

I am, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:27):

Okay. So how long did you do the music thing before the production thing came along?

Speaker 3 (00:17:33):

So my first band hang now was on this label called Tooth and Nail Records. We did three records. Oh,

Speaker 2 (00:17:39):

I know. Tooth and Nail. They're a good label.

Speaker 3 (00:17:41):

Yeah. Yeah. You did some, what is it, August Burns, right, right.

Speaker 2 (00:17:45):

Yeah. August Burns, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:17:47):

Nice, nice. So we did two records with hangnail. 98 was when we graduated high school, and we were actually a band three years before that. So basically out of high school, 98, we put our first record on Tooth and Nail, and then we toured for a year or so and did the same thing for two more records. So that was 98 until somewhere 2002 or three or so. And then we broke up. Long Story, but I joined this band called Acceptance from Seattle, and I moved out to Seattle and we did a record out there with Aaron Sprinkle that was on Columbia Records. We toured for probably, we probably toured, we had an EP that came out first, and then we did a full length, that was almost a four year run of touring, and then that ended about 2006 or so. So it's been since 98 to 2006 was pretty much on the road and making records and doing all that stuff. 2006 then is when I actually, the acceptance broke up and I moved to California with my buddy Christian from Acceptance, and we started a new band out there, and we were living with our manager for a while, and then six or seven months later after we moved there, he got a call to join in Berlin. So he went and did that. So then I went back home to Milwaukee,

Speaker 2 (00:19:07):

The end.

Speaker 3 (00:19:08):

The end. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:19:10):

So do you think that all that experience though as a touring musician helped you relate to your clients better?

Speaker 3 (00:19:19):

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a business. We're on the road doing our thing, being a business, and so we have to figure out how to make that work and talking to people every day and every night at the shows and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, even what I learned from the producers that we worked with, those making those records, I wasn't really into production, but I was getting into it as we were making these for acceptance, especially watching Aaron Sprinkle do his thing and learning from just learning what I could from him. It was pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (00:19:50):

He's great, by the way.

Speaker 3 (00:19:51):

Yeah, he is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:19:53):

I haven't heard his work in a minute, but I mixed engineered a Demon Hunter record.

Speaker 3 (00:20:00):

Oh, nice.

Speaker 2 (00:20:01):

Back in 2012 or something that he produced, and the production was immaculate. And not just that, but super musical. He's just really, really good.

Speaker 3 (00:20:14):

That's the thing. And he's a genius musician. It just helps everything out when he starts doing production work,

Speaker 2 (00:20:21):

Working with him. So that made you see the light as far as production goes?

Speaker 3 (00:20:27):

Absolutely. Yeah, because what was cool about it was that the band would come in and we'd do a day, we'd record whatever we need to drums or guitars, and then the next day we'd come in and there'd be just extra production stuff that just sounds epic to us, and it's like he would just do that on his downtime before we were even there at the studio. And that happened all the time. He just hears these things and he does it so fast, which is kind of incredible to me. He hears it and he'll just go, oh, I know what I need there, and he just throw it in there and it sounds perfect. So yeah, so knowing that a producer could actually add to the song, I mean as far as long as the band's okay with it, he can write stuff for the song or do whatever he needs to, and seeing that, I didn't realize that. I thought back then I just thought a producer was just going to basically an engineer, hit record and let the band do his thing. So seeing what he added to our songs was a very eyeopening for sure.

Speaker 2 (00:21:28):

I guess after working with him, what was the inspiration that got you into recording? Was it just like, this guy is now I know what you can do, the band's done got to do something, or how did it come along? That

Speaker 3 (00:21:41):

Was pretty much exactly what it was. So yeah, the band was done. I moved to California and those seven months in LA was when I purchased Pro Tools and just started going for it and didn't have a job, was just living off some publishing money that I had, and I spent it all. But that was my training for Pro Tools, that was my school, and I just kind of learned all I could. And then when I came back to Milwaukee after those seven months, I moved into a space, a studio that was in, actually it's in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and I used a space there and started just recording bands and just went for it.

Speaker 2 (00:22:23):

Did you still have hope for the band thing to work out though? Or were you kind of been there, done that, doing this now?

Speaker 3 (00:22:30):

I think for the first year after probably maybe a year and a half after the band broke up, I was within that year, I was like, I kind of wanted to still do the band thing. We were still hot. It was a thing still, I was kind of into it, but then after that year, year and a half or so, I just started as my production stuff started building, I was like, you know what? This is better. I can stay home. I can probably have a family at some point, and I'm kind of done with the band thing. And I mean, for me, it's been what, it was like seven years of touring, so I was kind of over it. Then after that year or so,

Speaker 2 (00:23:07):

I could just totally relate. I had a band that I guess we got together in 2000, but got signed in 2005 or oh six and ended right at the end of 2010, 2011. And coinciding with when I got my first bigger studio gig, I had been recording for 10 years before that, but for that first year of the band being broken up, I was thinking maybe I'll start another band. I had a few false starts, and I think it was just wired into me from all that touring and all that. Just being in a band that's actually doing something is so life consuming

Speaker 4 (00:23:52):

That

Speaker 2 (00:23:52):

It's hard to just put on the brakes and stop. So I think for a good year, I was kind of halfway wanting to maybe do another one or something, but then at some point, it was around a year as well. It was just like, nah, this is way better. And the idea of starting another band just fills me with anxiety.

Speaker 3 (00:24:16):

Oh, me too, me too. Absolutely. There's no way I could even, when bands come in and I am producing bands like, man, I don't want to say it to them, but I'm kind of like, man, you guys good for you guys. This is a big task, especially nowadays with how music is. But I couldn't even think twice about doing that now, starting a new band or It's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (00:24:38):

Yeah, I mean more power to them. Exactly. And there's actually, I feel like there's a lot of great bands now. In the past few years there's been a resurgence in quality, and I'm very, very happy about that. I'm stoked beyond Belief, but the idea of starting a band just and being in a van and starting from this beginning, it just fills me with dread. That's funny. I would never do it. But yeah, it took a year to get that out of my system. Interestingly enough, though, production wasn't it for me either. I was kind of into it, but I never totally gave myself over to it. I tried, but it just wasn't the right fit. What I'm doing now is, but what I'm doing now, who's built off of what I did in production and what I did in the band, all of it kind of put together into this thing. But it's interesting to me just like when people make transitions, whether they're forced transitions or not forced at what point they're a hundred percent aligned with that transition and when they're kind of there and not, and I find that most of the time it's kind of there, kind, not at first.

Speaker 3 (00:26:07):

I would say that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even for me, I was living with my parents in 2006 when I came back from California and living for free, I knew a bunch of bands around Kenosha, Milwaukee, Chicago. So I started with just dirt cheap deals for these guys. Like, Hey, come on in. I am learning too. Let's learn together. Let's figure it out. I think for me, I have a weird personality where I feel like when I do switch something over, if I'm going to come right off touring and go into this production thing, I just go for full on. Now, I did get a part-time job at the post office working on Saturdays just to get by for those first couple years of me figuring out how to record bands. So I did do that, which helped pay some of the bills, but again, I was living for free of my parents, so I was like, okay, mean if I had a rent, if I had a rent, or if I had a wife or kids, that would've been much harder transition to make happen.

Speaker 2 (00:27:13):

Yeah. Well, I actually just mean the mental part of it. When I've made transitions like that, when I decide to do something, I go all in. When I decided to start URM, I stopped making records. I didn't do some records and then try to start a company at the same time. I was like, I'm going to start a company now, and that's what I'm doing. And then when I got that first big studio gig, that was it with playing in bands, and I actually got a bunch of opportunities in that first year, and I turned them all down and had only one false start that lasted two weeks with some musicians, and I turned down a bunch of opportunities, and even though I kind of halfway wanted to take them, it was just like, look, you have to make a decision, and the decision is, are you going to do the studio thing or are you going to do the music thing? You can't do both really, really well unless you're a freak and you're not a freak. So make a decision and then the same thing later, it's like, are you going to start a business or are you going to be a producer? Make a decision, but don't be a producer with a half-ass wannabe business on the side.

(00:28:29):

Make a choice.

Speaker 3 (00:28:30):

Absolutely. I agree with that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:28:32):

Yeah, I think you have to make those choices in life. I really believe that statement. You can do anything you want, but you can't do everything. Yep,

Speaker 3 (00:28:45):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (00:28:45):

Yeah, I definitely do believe that's true. So I have a few questions for you about some of the specific work that you've done. So you worked on the Color Morales, pray for Me, acoustic release, and the song itself has real beautiful warmth and clarity, and can you talk a little bit about your work on this one?

Speaker 3 (00:29:15):

Wow, dude, that's going way back there for me. I got to think of that was honestly, it's a bit of a blur. That was done in probably 2000, I mean, what, 12 or something maybe, or somewhere in there, 13, 14, maybe that was a one day thing, and I can't even honestly remember how it went. I'm not even joking.

Speaker 2 (00:29:39):

I think that that's a good enough answer. The reason I am saying that is because I get emails all the time asking me, so what were the amps used on this record from 2013? It's like, dude, I don't know. I don't

Speaker 3 (00:29:55):

Know what I ate for breakfast this morning, so I can't really tell you that.

Speaker 2 (00:29:59):

I don't remember last week.

Speaker 3 (00:30:01):

The only thing I know from how that came about was Devin King was in a band before that I recorded his band, and that was probably, I mean, 2008 or something or oh nine. And so we've stayed in contact and that's kind of how that came across my play was through Devin asking me to do that for them. So that's all I remember from that session.

Speaker 2 (00:30:24):

Well came out great.

Speaker 3 (00:30:25):

Well, thanks man, appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (00:30:27):

So back to the transition between touring and production with all that touring that you did. I'm guessing that you had a substantial opportunity for very good networking, especially just all that touring and then living in LA for a while. And I feel like when you're in that situation, the point is just making it work and not totally blowing. It is easy to totally blow it, but if you don't totally blow it, it's a huge opportunity to plant lots of seeds for the future. Do you have any social advice you might be able to give listeners to help navigate social waters when they're in, I'd call fruitful or potentially fruitful social situations?

Speaker 3 (00:31:21):

Yes, I do, because I learned it the hard way because I wasn't like the social butterfly in the band. So I mean, I hung out and talked to people, but after the show, I was in the RV going to sleep. I was the morning driver. I wake up at seven and I start driving. So one thing that I regret from all those touring days is keeping those contacts and saving those kind of contacts in your phone or wherever, and we toured with a ton of bands that I had some great opportunity. I mean, I did create some good contacts, but there was a lot more that I could have had if I would've taken the time and said, Hey, lemme get your number real quick, or Let me just get your email and we'll keep in touch or whatever. I think that's the thing that I, after coming off the road and going into production full time, I realized that I had some great opportunities that I missed because I was here in the room with these people and I could have just created more contacts. And so that's my advice for all these young guys out there. Whoever you meet, you never know. I mean, for us, for me, it was like I remember going on tour with this band called Fall Boy, and we were all in vans back then, and Patrick would come in, I've heard of Fallout. Yeah, you've heard of them, right?

Speaker 2 (00:32:43):

Did they win some Guitar Center competition or something like Local Band of the Year?

Speaker 3 (00:32:48):

I don't even know. Probably.

Speaker 2 (00:32:49):

No kidding. Maybe

Speaker 3 (00:32:51):

They actually did. No, and I just remember that's a good example is this, when Patrick would come into our van and he was just kind of playing guitar and he was writing some stuff, and we thought at that point I thought, who's this guy coming into our, we don't even know him very well. It's our second day of tour, and he wanted to write songs with us, and we're like, okay, that's cool, man, just

Speaker 2 (00:33:12):

Because that's how he is. He just likes to write music.

Speaker 3 (00:33:15):

That's just how he was. Yeah, back then, he's just a writer. He writes crazy, and now it's like looking back, I'm like, man, I wish I would've created a better relationship with Patrick or all those guys. So you just never know who you're going to meet and who those friends could become, and I don't know. So yeah, that's my regret from all those years of touring and not really keeping a ton of those contacts.

Speaker 2 (00:33:38):

So I kind of share that with you. I actually think that I kept a lot for being such an introvert, and actually a lot of them now are coming back into play, strangely enough, because I have to talk to a lot of label people in order to secure rights for Nail the mix, and a lot of people from my past are popping up, and I'm really thankful that things were left on a good note. The majority of the time, you can't win with everyone,

Speaker 4 (00:34:13):

But

Speaker 2 (00:34:13):

The majority of the time, it was left on a good note, but it also makes me think that because I'm introverted, I also was the guy who would go hide a lot of the time after a show or something like that, and who knows how much more I could have amplified things now if I had taken the time to meet even more people and be friends with even more people, because based on how much my network has done for me as is, I can only imagine that it could be multiples, maybe. So I highly suggest that people don't put themselves in a position to regret not having seized a relationship with somebody without being a Punisher at the same time.

Speaker 3 (00:35:04):

Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:35:06):

It has to be a real relationship.

Speaker 3 (00:35:08):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:35:10):

Which actually I find is the tough part because if you're not feeling sociable, it is hard to fake it. It's kind of a catch 22.

Speaker 3 (00:35:20):

It kind of is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:35:22):

I found a lot of times that networking in the moment was basically, it was never something that led to business in that moment, or very rarely was it networking now leads to something now. It was always about planting a seed for later. Do you have any stories like that where some networking you did at one point in time led to a future client or a future opportunity or something of the sort?

Speaker 3 (00:35:53):

I mean, yeah, I kind of feel like that's kind of like the norm now as far as the last four years have been. One example is with acceptance, being on Crush Management back then and now Crush has Panic of Disco and Follow Up Boy and all those kind of bands. I've kept in contact with some of those guys, and this was 2005 when acceptance was happening, and just about 2014 or so, I reached out to 'em and said, Hey, how's it going? And just kind of reaffirm me what I do nowadays and see if they have any work for me, and they got me a couple things from that. It was just me just reaching out with an email, and that's how I got the Andrew McMahon in the wilderness mix that I did for them, and what else did I do for them? Something else I can't remember, but that's one example, but there's a ton, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (00:36:44):

So you knew them from 2005, and when did you reach out to them?

Speaker 3 (00:36:47):

2014. So 2005 is when they were our manager for the band, and every other year I would kind of reach out and we'd still keep in touch with email, but not really asking for work or something like, Hey, I want to do some crush stuff. It was more just saying hi. Then in 2014 is when I reached out and said, Hey, I'm doing production stuff and mixing. Lemme know if you got anything. And they came back and threw me some work, which is great.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13):

It's interesting though, because that's exactly what I'm talking about is years of not asking over the years of keeping that relationship alive, I'm sure that they realized that you're sticking around and are not full of shit basically. Right?

Speaker 3 (00:37:32):

Yeah. I think that's probably why I didn't reach out sooner. I was still, I just wanted to get really good still, so I just needed some years to get to a place where I felt like that I was worth it. Basically, the whole mundane stuff that you do every day to me is it doesn't go unnoticed. It's like it's a thing that you're constantly learning, so you just want to, every day it's like even though some days might be harder than the other days, but you're still learning through all that stuff and it makes you better. So

Speaker 2 (00:38:04):

Absolutely. So how does all this lead to Hillary Duff?

Speaker 3 (00:38:09):

So that's a good story. A friend of mine, Jared Betis, he's a producer in Los Angeles now, so I have a bunch of people in LA and Nashville that send me songs to work on and to mix and to edit and that kind of stuff. So he was a big part of getting me some good jobs, one being that Melissa Etheridge record that I mix as well, but he's got his hands in all kinds of stuff out there. He's writing with artists, and so he worked on a song with Hillary for her last record. And so basically what I did with Hillary, all I did for that song was I comped and edited her vocals. I didn't do any production work, although I did track some background vocals in Kenosha for that song. All the things on my website, it's so random, but all these things come from different people that I've met or known and people that trust me to do this stuff. But so that's how the Hillary Duff thing came about.

Speaker 2 (00:39:09):

Hey, everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast and you should know that is brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the Mix before, and if you're remember, you already know how amazing it is at the beginning of the month. Now the mix members get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God eth Shuga, bring Me The Horizon Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song of the album and takes your questions live on the air. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics and Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use of your portfolio.

(00:40:11):

So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those who really, really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhanced, which includes everything I already told you about, and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain staging, mastering loan, and so forth. It's over 50 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed. Enhanced members also get access to one-on-one office hours sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes on a live video stream, fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. If any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills and your audio career head over to URM academy slash enhanced to find out more when you're working on something. I guess there's a lot riding on something like that maybe. And not to say that it's more or less important than a rock record, but there's typically a lot more riding on it just because there's a lot more money invested typically in a pop artist than a rock artist. There's just more, I feel like the stakes depending, obviously if it's Slipknot or something,

(00:41:40):

Stakes are pretty high, but in general, pop is way bigger than rock and the stakes are higher. Is there more pressure on your end when you get handed something like that and are told Do your thing, or is it just another song that you're just going to do you on and hopefully they love?

Speaker 3 (00:41:58):

I think there's a level of importance when a song comes in like that. Again, it goes back to just the practice. I feel like I've had so much practice now that I've, I feel pretty confident going into a Hillary duff and making sure it's like her vocal is perfect, that kind of thing, but still there is a level of, yeah, there's her a and r, and then there's all these people at the label that it needs to be perfect, otherwise they're not going to love it. And that particular song was not recorded that well, her vocal. So there's a lot of noise, a lot of just stuff all over the place. So that one was a bit hard, but I would say I spend a bit more time just to make sure it's like, okay, I go through with a fine tooth comb and as opposed to, okay, here's the normal whatever rock band I'm doing. I know it's going to be fine in the end, but there's no label behind it. It's all indie stuff. So there's a level of importance there.

Speaker 2 (00:42:55):

Just the stakes are way higher. Can we talk a little bit about your process of what you mean by fine tooth comb and

Speaker 4 (00:43:03):

Especially

Speaker 2 (00:43:04):

As related to a recording that's not as good? The reason I'm asking is because most people listening, the stuff they're going to be working on is not going to be that great. I mean, sometimes they'll get the opportunity to work with some pristine tracks, but by and large, they're going to be working either with local artists who can't sing very well or mixing stuff that wasn't recorded very well or whatnot. And so polishing something that just wasn't executed that great on the engineering end or whatever is kind of common. So can we talk a little bit about your fine tooth comb process?

Speaker 3 (00:43:44):

Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty deep question, but I think I can try to answer that.

Speaker 2 (00:43:49):

You can get nerdy. Okay.

Speaker 3 (00:43:51):

I'll get a little nerdy. Yeah. Well, I will say this. I will say that, and this is why I like what I do, but I, as far as being a post guy and making things, things nice on the backend, as far as editing goes, I would say 80% of the songs that I get to mix only the vocals, they're just not great. They're either autotune is on set with auto and you can hear everything everywhere, or they're actually tuned, but they're super bad tuned.

Speaker 2 (00:44:19):

By bad you mean to the wrong note or

Speaker 3 (00:44:23):

That, or you can just hear the tuning very well, which I'm a fan of not hearing tuning.

Speaker 2 (00:44:29):

So unintentionally able to hear the tuning.

Speaker 3 (00:44:33):

Correct. Yes. And that's kind of probably why I started doing a lot more editing stuff, because I feel like there's, I just got sick of hearing every song I get to mix. It was like, okay, well, what's going on with these? Why is there so much noise in these guitars? Or why or why aren't these Palm U guitars tighter? They're like 50 milliseconds off or whatever the thing may be. I like to hear it tighter. So I think drums for one, I mean, who's not replacing drums nowadays, that's going to help the drums in a nutshell, kicks Airs or Toms or whatever you're doing to replace drums. But again, if you don't have rooms or overheads that are recorded nice or good, it's just not going to sound good. It is what it is. You can only do as much as the source gives you, but for guitars, if you're doing rock or whatever it is, and there's tight polys all over the place, those things have to be feeling good with the drums and the kick and all that kind of stuff.

(00:45:29):

So I'll spend time and if they're not good, I'm just going to do it and I'll save a alternate playlist just in case the band freaks out that they don't want it sloppy, that's fine. To me, it's all about the vocals. So if the vocals come in and if they're not tuned at all, which happens, that's fine. If it's real bad, I'll ask the producer if it's okay, we'll just leave it and go for it. But if it's bad, I don't want to just go through it and put out something bad. I want talk to the producer and say, Hey, listen, these aren't tuned very well, or whatever. I'll say it in a nice way and say, Hey, can we just tune these or want to, should we leave 'em as they are?

Speaker 2 (00:46:05):

Hey, buddy. Never tune anything again.

Speaker 3 (00:46:09):

So for me, it's about taking those extra steps because if it's going to make the song 5%, 10% better, then I think we should do it. I mean, why not? Basically, if it costs, I mean, maybe I charge 'em a little bit to do it, whatever, but to me, it's those small details that make everything. And I think for vocals too, it's one of those things that every song you get just so different if I'm mixing and you just kind have to take it as a song by song project and to see what you got to do to it.

Speaker 2 (00:46:42):

What are some of the common issues you get though, besides the tuning being fucked? And a second part to that is how do you go about fixing the bad tuning?

Speaker 3 (00:46:51):

Okay. Well, the vocals to me are the first thing that cut that will pop out and be like, okay, this is not good. The drums would be the second thing that, no,

Speaker 2 (00:46:58):

No, no, but I mean specifically in vocals, when you get vocal, let's talk only about vocals. When you get vocals specifically, what are the most common problems you get with vocal tracks besides the tuning

Speaker 3 (00:47:12):

Timing, I would say, I mean, tuning is the one, obviously number one, but timing, I think too, it has to feel right. It has to feel like it's in the pocket, and that would be, I think timing. It's not a thing for tuning. It's like I hear that in every song almost I get, but for timing, that's less of an important thing. But for me, because I do so much vocals, I just hear all that stuff. I hear like, okay, why is the chorus so early on this line, and why is it so I'll just go through and time those things a little bit better if I can.

Speaker 2 (00:47:50):

Man, I don't know if I agree with you that it's not as important. I almost feel like it's equally because if the feel isn't there, if it's not in the pocket, it makes me insane.

Speaker 3 (00:48:02):

Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. I meant that just what you hear, first of all, when you first, oh, okay. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's got to be in the pocket, and that's, I think my process of doing vocal editing for a song that I produce is pretty intense, but it's like a fail safe way to get to the end result. And it's like, okay, there's no questions about it. Here's the vocal, and that's kind of what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:48:29):

Do you get issues often where shit was just tracked in a horrible environment, so you have weird room reflections in the microphone that somehow you got to get rid of any noise problems like that?

Speaker 3 (00:48:46):

It happens. I mean, from time to time, not very much. And those are the kind of things that I will attempt to do some magic eq, whatever it is, and then go back to the producer and say, Hey, this is how it sounds. I can't do much about it, and if they want to recut the vocals, great, but if not, then that's just kind of what it's unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (00:49:10):

So I've always thought that really the one thing that is the hardest to fix and is the most, I guess the most appropriate for a redo, is that bad vocal environment stuff. When they track in a room that just has reflections all over the place and you just have just weird shit in the mic that you can't EQ out, it's just there. I've heard that isotope Rx can fix it to a degree, but I personally don't know of any way to really, really fix that stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:49:44):

Yeah, I heard some great things about that plugin as well, but I think you're right. I think it's like you just got to recut the vocals basically.

Speaker 2 (00:49:51):

I think that RX does magic, but it does magic for stuff like noise. I could be wrong. I mean, Hey, listeners, if I'm wrong here, please let us know, because I personally have never used it. I just know a bunch of people who use it and who have used it for me. And so what I understand is that you can definitely use some black magic with it, but I know that I have given vocal tracks to somebody to try and fix that were given to me that were recorded in a bathroom or something, and they weren't fixable. It's happened a few times, and I've never had anyone actually successfully or me be able to fix that problem.

Speaker 3 (00:50:39):

So what did you do then in that occasion? Did you just go back and say, Hey,

Speaker 2 (00:50:43):

I asked them to retract the vocals? It never happened when I tracked them. When I track vocals, I set up a fucking fort. I don't like vocal booths because vocalists tend to not like vocal booths, and I like to be in the room with the vocalist. It's just better for me and for them, just the way that I work is I like to be able to look them in the face and just, I don't know, it just works better. But because of that, I have to build a fort, and basically I build a gobo fort that goes up to have a thick carpet underneath them, go both fort in front and on both sides of them, and then also on top. So we make the fort about seven feet tall or something like that, a little bit taller than the singer so that he doesn't feel claustrophobic. And then we do put a gobo on top, and then he sings from, or she sings from inside the fort, and usually it's a 57, which has really good rejection from the back. So you're good. Even in a more live room, I'll build a crazy ass fort. I'll go to great distances to make sure that the room is not messing up the vocal take.

Speaker 3 (00:52:14):

Sure. Absolutely. I mean, that's the worst one. If you do don't do that and you go back later on and you're like, oh, shoot, now I hear it. That's the worst. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:52:24):

Well, I fucked up vocals back in earlier days and got reamed out for it. It's never fun to be told that you have to tell a vocalist to redo everything because it's your fault.

Speaker 3 (00:52:38):

Absolutely. Yep. I just heard a podcast the other day of a producer working with a band for three weeks, and then he lost everything and he had to go back and just say, Hey, we have to redo it, or I'll give you money back and you can go somewhere else and do your record.

Speaker 2 (00:52:55):

Was that me?

Speaker 3 (00:52:56):

No, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (00:52:58):

I do have a story like that where, oh, dear. Wow. Yeah, what happened, and listeners, forgive me if I've told this before, but my studio got struck by lightning back in 2005, pre-cloud backup or anything like that. It got struck by lightning right when I was backing up. So I had both backup drives hooked up. I was doing a mirrored backup. I always did, and I was working on two records at that time, and they were on all three drives. So the internal drive, and then two gly drives, remember those? And then two Gly drives the big steel ones that

Speaker 4 (00:53:45):

They used

Speaker 2 (00:53:46):

To have the fire wire ones. So they were backing up and the weather was getting bad, and there was three minutes left on the backup. So I'm like, three minutes. Okay, three minutes soon, this is done. I want to plugging everything. And at about 30 seconds to Dunn Lightning struck the house and basically shit exploded.

Speaker 3 (00:54:13):

That's crazy, man. Wow.

Speaker 2 (00:54:15):

It was like when you see a submarine room in an action movie, take a hit and sparks go everywhere or something. It was a frightening, and it was also pink. It was pink electricity. That was the weirdest part. It was, I don't know if you've ever been near a lightning strike, but it doesn't, at least I've been around two, actually, I was near a basketball pole that got struck once I was sufficiently far away to where nothing happened to me. So I've been involved in two lightning strikes.

Speaker 3 (00:54:49):

That's crazy. Wow.

Speaker 2 (00:54:50):

Possibly three actually, because I think my, wait a second. I think my house in Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. My house in Florida was also struck by lightning, and it took out our septic, but wow.

Speaker 3 (00:55:02):

I'm not going to come near you.

Speaker 2 (00:55:05):

I've been involved in three lightning strikes, if you can believe that.

Speaker 3 (00:55:07):

Shit. Wow. That's crazy. So you lost everything on those drives then, right?

Speaker 2 (00:55:11):

I had not just that the computer was gone, although outboard gear that was hooked up to it was gone. I lost a lot of stuff in that, but one of the bands was there with me when it happened. We had just finished tracking and we were just smoking a joint and backing stuff up and talking about the session when we're going to get back together. So they witnessed me noticing the weather and being like, okay, we got three minutes left and I'm unplugging everything. So they were there and they saw that I was aware of it, and we together were like, yeah, let's just give it three minutes and then we're done. And so they saw the explosion. They knew it was true, and so then I said, look, we can retract this for free, or I can give you your money back or something. But they agreed to Retrack and it came out way better. However, the other band who wasn't there, they went somewhere else, and I think that they thought I was lying. And you know what? The reason I think that is? I would think I was lying too.

Speaker 3 (00:56:22):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:56:25):

So I think that they think, or they thought that I just lost their shit or something dumb, spilled a beer on it and lost all, who knows what they thought, but I don't think they believed me or they didn't care. I offered them the same thing. We'll redo it all for free, but then now that we're gone,

Speaker 3 (00:56:48):

Okay, wow, man, that's crazy. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:56:51):

Shit happens.

Speaker 3 (00:56:52):

Back your stuff up kids in three places.

Speaker 2 (00:56:57):

But cloud didn't exist back then. So what I would do was I would have one on the internal, one on an external glyph, and then another external glyph that I would take with me to my apartment. Perfect.

Speaker 3 (00:57:11):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:57:12):

In case the studio house burned down

Speaker 3 (00:57:15):

Absolutely crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:57:17):

Yeah, the weakness was backing them up at the same time, but that's why I'm kind of OCD about it now. I think that everybody should have something like Crash Plan hooked up in addition to doing multiple physical backups.

Speaker 3 (00:57:35):

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I still hear stories all the time. People just losing their stuff. It still happens.

Speaker 2 (00:57:41):

I lost something first time since the lightning strike that was longer. So first time in 14 years, I lost a file. Somebody sent me, like I said, it's the first time I had lost something in well over a decade, and I couldn't believe I lost it. I don't know how I lost it. It was like a 30 minute thing somebody sent me. I don't know where it went. It didn't end up in any of the online backups. There was no record of it on my shit. I have no idea what happened. He had deleted it off his Dropbox, so it was just gone. It kind killed my self-esteem for a good day.

Speaker 3 (00:58:21):

It still happens to the best of us, but I mean, and it is just the worst when it's like if you spent more than a day on something, maybe a day you can kind, okay, I'll go back and redo it for a day if I have to. But if you're two weeks deep on something, that's just the worst.

Speaker 2 (00:58:37):

No, it wasn't like that. It took him like an hour to do, and then he sent me 30 minute edit of it. I just felt terrible. And I also teach people to back shit up. Love it. I mean, shit happens.

Speaker 3 (00:58:52):

That's right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:58:53):

Yeah. Shit happens. So how did Stone Sour come about?

Speaker 3 (00:58:59):

So that was just a thing where I just worked on his demos. So basically, here's a quick backstory of my starting off in production. The band Skillet is from my hometown. For those of you who don't know who Skillet is, they're a bigger Christian rock band. And Ben Kaska was the guitar player for Skillet back then. And when I started doing production at the studio that I rented out at down in Kenosha, Ben had stopped by and I met him at the studio there and we started talking about stuff. And he was a producer as well on the side, and he's like, I got all these bands I want to record, but I got no time. I'm on the road with Skillet and I'm pretty busy, so do you want to do it? I was like, yeah, that'd be great. So that's kind of how we teamed up.

(00:59:47):

And the company Sky's Fall was born through Ben. Ben started this company, and at first we were just a recording studio and I was the main guy doing everything. And then it turned into a recording studio and slash film. He started doing some videos and doing all this stuff, but Ben had the opportunity to go and write with Corey. He did that. He flew out to Corey's house, did some demos, brought 'em back, and I basically took those demos and did my thing with them, added, made him sound great, fixed vocals, all that kind of stuff. And so that was all that was for the stone and sour stuff. It wasn't like a record thing, it was just all just kind of demo demo process for him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):

Still though,

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):

It's cool. Pretty damn cool.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):

It's interesting because even Ben was like, man, I am about to go on a flight to go to Corey's house. And Ben's a Christian obviously, and Corey's probably, I mean, I'm assuming he's not, but he's like, this is going to be interesting to see how this goes. But he loved it. He thought they hit it off great. And it was fantastic. So Ben had a great time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):

Yeah, I think Corey's pretty outright not

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):

That's what I figured. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):

I've only met him twice, but I know a lot of people who know him though, and I have never heard a bad thing about him as a person.

Speaker 4 (01:01:07):

And

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):

My two experiences with him were that he's one of the most positive, uplifting, easygoing, cool, charismatic people. I could go on and on. He's fucking cool. And so I figured that anyone cool going to work with him would probably have a good time.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):

Now at least now, I don't know about back in 2007 or 2003, but what I've heard about Corey Taylor now is that he's just kind of an unbelievable human being to be around. And like I said, my two experiences with him were interesting. I know he wouldn't remember, but I found them to be interesting because I've experienced a lot of people talking about successful people, so they were lucky or something like that. A lot of people don't like to credit the person who

(01:02:06):

Made it to the top, or they try to assign some sort of advantage that they had or something like that. And I've always thought that, yeah, at least in music, you can get your foot in the door for sure. If you have some preexisting advantage, your dad is at the top of a label or you're super rich and your dad offers to match the labels advertising budget. I've seen stuff like that happen, but it'll only get you that far. It won't keep you in the game. It might open a door. So that said, I don't believe that you can ever get to that top level without deserving it without, because the public can't be fooled. Not to that extent. You can't go multi-platinum and stick around for that long without being the real deal. And so when I met him in person, it was instantly clear that this dude is a star. If you ever seen those cell phone pictures of movie stars where it's like them and then two non movie star friends, and it is just like a shitty picture where they have red eye and all that stuff, but the movie star just looks like a Greek God or goddess, and then their two friends just look like normal people. And it's like, yeah, that's because that's what they look like. That's not some invention. And what that front man charisma

Speaker 4 (01:03:44):

Or

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):

That starlike charisma that someone like Cory Taylor has, that's who that person is. Yep,

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):

I've always thought it was interesting that sometimes that gets discounted. It gets discounted a lot with pop artists too. It bugs me. I don't think anyone gets there by accident.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):

Or at least stays there by accident. Well, that was my rant on that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):

So

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):

It sounds to me like what you've got going on. It's a really good example for what's possible if you do really great work and just kind of stick to your guns. It doesn't matter if you did the demo for Stone Sour or the album, but you keep working and you keep getting work. And it sounds to me like people are coming to you for what you do, and you're getting to work with clients that you enjoy working with and doing your thing. And I think that that's kind of living the dream.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):

I mean, I can't complain right now. Yeah. I love what I do. I think just recently it's been more of a thing where I'm starting to maybe say no to things I don't want to do. And this is just only happening. This has probably just been the last couple of years here, but before that, it's been like, okay, I just need to, I have two young kids and a wife. And so with what we have one income, so it's a bit like I got to pay the bills for now, but I feel like it's slowly transitioning into, I want to work on more things that I want to work on and less of maybe just like, eh, I'll pass on that kind of thing. But that's my motto, man. I figured out what I like to do or what I feel I'm good at, and just really take that to the next level.

(01:05:31):

And see, I think also for me, when I first started recording bands and stuff, and I was a nobody, I still am a nobody, but they'd come to me with songs and we'd record 'em and they would leave. It'd say we did a five song demo. They would leave after the week, whatever it was, and then I start giving them mixes back. They'd be like, man, this is, I think taking the time to edit stuff and to make sure it's nice and neat. The band, that's how I feel I built this thing basically, is by getting these bands in that may not be the greatest bands in the world, but they got, maybe they have good songs and just making 'em sound great, and then them telling their friends and so on. And I think that's kind of how this whole thing started for me, and that's why that's what I love to do is that kind of thing. And so I feel blessed that I can still be doing it this many years after I started, which is awesome. So yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):

Do you advertise at all?

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):

I don't. I just have a website.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):

Okay. So it's basically word of mouth.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):

It's all word of mouth. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):

The reason I'm asking, I ask almost everybody this is because I really, really believe that advertising is a waste of time for producers

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):

Because

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):

Every producer I know did it all through word of mouth. I mean, they might have a website, but the website itself isn't going to, it might reaffirm who you are if someone's already curious, but they're not going to discover you off of the website.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):

So I always tell people that they need to work on building relationships in their portfolio and then let the word of mouth do the work for you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):

I mean, it's all about the work though. Yeah, exactly. And then it speaks for itself.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):

Yeah. Well, I mean, there's no better endorsement than a former client or a current client

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):

Or

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):

A song that somebody loves the sound of. That's way bigger endorsement than punishing somebody with a business card at N, which is about to happen to me. Have fun with that. You probably guessed from this conversation that I'm not huge into large crowds of people. This is the first year that I've ever been like an exhibitor at Nam. I've always gone as an artist or a guest or something, and I've only really gone once every other year lately, or even three years, just because I don't like being in big rooms with a whole lot of people and a lot of fucking cacophony everywhere. But by the time this comes out, Nam will have already happened. So this year, URM had a booth first time ever, and I'm actually kind of excited about it, but my schedule is just filled to the brim, and I'm actually kind of looking forward to it. I don't want to say I'm dreading it, but I know that I'm going to probably need days to recover. But it is a very different thing going in as an exhibitor than it is as an attendee. I don't know. It's just a lot easier to make meetings. So I'm actually kind of excited about it this time.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):

I think that's going to be huge for you guys. Yeah. I mean, congrats on that as well. That's pretty cool. Thanks. Yeah, I

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):

Don't know if we'll ever do it again. I thought it was important to do it at least once, but I kind of feel like now that we are an exhibitor, it's time to make up for any networking I didn't do in the past.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):

There you go, man. That's the place to do it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):

Yeah. It's the shot at redemption. But on the topic of word of mouth as related to what we were talking about, the worst thing I feel like people can do, and I just thought about it, they do this at Nam, is come up and punish somebody and just put a card in their face and try to sell their service in the first five minutes of meeting them. That's one of the worst ways to network with somebody. I think that the best way to do it is to just make friends. And it doesn't mean friends that you talk to every single day. It can be a friend that you catch up with once a year or something, but just get on a positive footing with somebody and let it develop naturally. Like you said, it took you nine years with that label

Speaker 4 (01:09:54):

Or

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):

Well management company, knowing each other from working together previously, but then keeping the relationship alive in a casual way. And I have several people that I know too that maybe I worked with or came across professionally back in the touring days, who then I just, we'd say hello once a year, maybe have lunch once every five years. And then recently, for some reason, they came up through something for nail the mix and they were there, and I could just hit them up and we can make it work.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):

Absolutely. Yeah. I actually have one more example that I just thought of early beginnings with acceptance, being on tour, and there's this band called Trios, or the receiving end of Sirens. That was one of the bands that we kind of became closer with as far as being on tour and kind of becoming friends and that kind of stuff. So the drummer for that band, Andrew, we've somewhat kept in contact, not very well, but we obviously know each other and we are somewhat friends back then, but he's now playing with Dan and Shay, who is the biggest country act pretty much in the world I feel right now. And it's such a random thing. And so I'm going to see them coming up here in March and just going to go hang out with an old friend that I haven't seen since 2006. But it's one of those things, you never know who your friends are going to become or people that you meet, and life takes you in some crazy places.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):

And that's exactly why you should try to stay cool with everybody. However, don't beat yourself up if that's not a hundred percent possible. Everyone I know who says that still has a few people that they had that falling out with, and some bridges are not meant to be left standing, but 90% of them should be. Some are better burned down so the Nazis can't cross them or something. Dynamite that bridge. But for the most part, you never know. You never know. It could be 10 years or 15 years before that relationship turns into something. And at the very worst, and this is not a bad thing at all, but at the very worst, you have a friend. You say that nothing ever comes of it work-wise. Nothing wrong with having a friend.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):

Absolutely. If I knew back then that I was going to be doing production in the future, things would've been like working for myself. Oh yeah. I got to get contacts. Things would've been differently back then. It's like you're in the band, you're on tour, you don't really think about a year, one year ahead of you,

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):

Let alone 10.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):

Exactly, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):

The thing is that it's not even production. It's like you don't know what life holds. You could be in an industry that doesn't even exist in 10 years. Like for instance, what URM is doing, we didn't exist 10 years ago. I could have never imagined that I'd have something going on that didn't exist back then, but where all my contacts from before were somewhat relevant. So people don't think about the fact that there's stuff that hasn't even been invented yet that they might be involved with, that the people they meet now could come into play to help out with, I mean, let alone production. That too, of course, or another band or whatever. Who knows? Maybe you end up at a label and you want to sign a band and you know this band because you toured with them, and that gives you the edge. You never know

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):

What

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):

It's going to be. So that's why you should take these all seriously

Speaker 4 (01:13:37):

And

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):

Especially never look down on somebody because they might be on a lower rung on the ladder career wise, because first of all, they're not lower on the rung humanity wise. They're equal to you as people, and you should treat them that way. And also because career wise, they might be controlling your ladder at some point

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):

In the future. So all the more reason to keep things cool. But Nick Rad, I think this is a good place to call it. And I just want to thank you for coming on, and is there any way that people can find you that you want to plug?

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):

I guess the best way to find me is just my, well, my website nick rad.com, or I'm on Facebook, Instagram. I think my Instagram is Nick Rad. It's a long one. Sorry about that. But yeah, if you just search for my name, you'll find some stuff

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):

And we'll link to it in the show notes as well. So Nick Rad, thank you and have a great day. Thanks

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):

For having me. Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):

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