JOEY STURGIS, MACHINE & BILLY DECKER: Why Demos Matter, Killer Customer Service, The Pro Producer Mindset

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Hairball Audio. For nearly a decade, airball Audio has been helping musicians and recording studios improve their recordings by offering high quality outboard recording equipment doit yourself kit form. Check out the full line of compressors, mic pre amplifiers, and do it yourself [email protected]. Airball audio, do it yourself without compromise. This episode of the podcast is also brought to you by Sure, legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones and headphones. Sure. The most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure.com. And now your host, Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:57):

Levi. Welcome everybody. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the URM booth. This is a nam edition of the URM podcast that we're going to do. We're a down one guest, but he'll be here any minute. But for now, I've got my wonderful co-founder of URM right here, world famous producer, Mr. Joey Sturgis, entrepreneur. Hello, hello all of you beautiful people. You're beautiful. And the one and only Machine, the producer right here, known, known for all kinds of stuff like Lamb of God, clutch, all kinds of great stuff. One of my favorite producers of all time and now a friend. But the reason I wanted both of you guys here and Billy when he gets here, is because you guys have worked with everything from top bands in the genre, like asking Alexandria or Lamb of God, but you've also developed bands and worked with them when they're not at that point yet. And I'm wondering, first of all, because that's most relevant to everyone here, right? Working with bands that are not huge yet, what do you find in common? Do you do anything differently when you work with a smaller band that's coming up that you want to help get discovered versus an established mega band like Glam of God was is we're asking Alexandria or any of the huge bands you work with, do you approach it differently?

Speaker 3 (02:25):

I guess I'll start. Go for it. It's interesting. So when you have a band that's really successful, you kind of have a responsibility of a legacy to take control of in a sense. And that's a really big weight on your shoulder. But conversely, when you're working with a band that's not big yet, you also have a really big responsibility to make the very first impression of this band. So it's kind of the same situation in both ways because you have such a huge, you a musician, an artist coming to you with their art, and it's your job to present it properly. And so in both scenarios, if it's a band that's existed or a band that's just getting started, you have the job of presenting that.

Speaker 2 (03:20):

So you don't care what the budget is. I mean, obviously you got to be something that you're cool to work with, but it doesn't matter where they're at in their career, you're going to approach it like music. Right.

Speaker 4 (03:32):

That's exactly, that's what I was going to say. Absolutely. You really have to approach it the same way, but in some ways there's a lot more excitement when it's a new band because that's thrilling. It's kind of heroic and everyone's optimistic, and sometimes it can be. Would you agree? It's a lot more fun with a new band.

Speaker 3 (03:58):

You get to take more risks

Speaker 4 (04:00):

And

Speaker 3 (04:00):

That's fun.

Speaker 4 (04:01):

But I'm always trying to design, whether they're a legacy band or a new band, always trying to just design the right script, the right formula, connecting the right dots for that band at that time for what they're doing that makes them connect. That's our job ultimately. Outside of the obvious recording,

Speaker 2 (04:22):

I guess maybe the big difference would be budget might allow for less time with a smaller band. So have you figured out ways to speed up the process of connecting those dots?

Speaker 4 (04:35):

I am the worst at that should pass. I am so bad at speeding up. But

Speaker 2 (04:41):

That's actually great to note because what you're saying is if you believe in the band, you're going to figure out a way to make it work and you're not going to half-ass it.

Speaker 4 (04:50):

Yeah. I have really benefited from URM on the speed front really.

Speaker 2 (04:57):

I'm not paying him to say that,

Speaker 4 (04:58):

No, I need this help just being real here. But yes, I want to learn to speed things up when I doesn't sacrifice what I'm doing creatively for the band. And

Speaker 2 (05:15):

Yeah, you are all

Speaker 3 (05:17):

About efficiency. Absolutely. Creating systems that allow for creativity is very hard to do, but it's necessary for being efficient in this business,

Speaker 2 (05:31):

The machine. The thing about you though, from now that I've watched you work, you do have systems for everything pretty much, at least with mixing, it's very, very scientific and it's also very creative,

Speaker 4 (05:45):

But not necessarily based on speed.

Speaker 2 (05:48):

No.

Speaker 3 (05:49):

Okay. So in terms of speed, it is essentially figuring out what is the artist doing that gets in their own way. A lot of artists will write lyrics. Maybe the artist is very slow at writing lyrics or maybe they're very slow at getting their vocals done. And you find out the reason why is because they take so long to write lyrics. You give them some pointers, you give 'em some ideas, and now all of a sudden they're doing it way faster than they were before. But the secret is finding the actual root of the problem. So it's like why does he never turn in his vocals? Why does it take him so long? Well, maybe he's spending 2, 3, 4 days to come up with lyrics. 2, 3, 4 weeks. That's actually, that's more accurate. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (06:41):

A big part of our job is to help the artists not get in their own way to a large degree. I think a lot of those guys that maybe takes too long are their own worst enemy. And you're there as a coach, as I'm you as a mentor or coach to sort of really let a guy know that he's all right, he's a cool kid, and when it's good, let him know it's good and empower him like a good coach does.

Speaker 2 (07:10):

Okay, so say you're working in a less than ideal scenario then where you don't know the band they're in with you for the first time. I know a machine that you always do a meeting with the band, I already know you. So because he actually will fly or figure out a way to meet every band he's going to work with.

Speaker 4 (07:32):

I just met a band right after this thing right here. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:34):

So this question is not entirely realistic for you, but say you couldn't meet the band, say blind date,

Speaker 4 (07:43):

I feel really weird about being in this studio with them, like a blind date. Like, hey, yeah, very awkward. It had to be, but yeah, for me, that's awkward.

Speaker 2 (07:53):

So what you're saying is you don't even allow for that situation to happen

Speaker 4 (07:57):

Basically. It's rarely happened, and I would do fine with it, but it's not ideal. It's better for both of us. We need to sort of like, nope, meet his people. I like to see a band live. I like to come up with a plan. I think it's just fair that a band feels good, has confidence walking into the studio.

Speaker 2 (08:18):

This is regardless of what level they're at.

Speaker 4 (08:20):

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:21):

Still do the research I guess. Sorry, you want to say?

Speaker 3 (08:25):

I was just going to say, yeah, it's important to create an environment where the bands that you're working with can thrive. So if it's a legacy band or not a legacy band, but a band that's been around and done a couple of albums, maybe the environment that they thrive in is you're helping them work together. You're helping them solve their own internal issues so that they can become more creative in the studio with you versus a new band who's scared to share ideas. So maybe creating a thriving environment for a new band is, Hey, don't be afraid to share your ideas with me and show everyone else what you're trying to bring to the table. Just setting the tone for the entire session can do so much for the entire process.

Speaker 2 (09:15):

Something that musicians say a lot, professional musicians, and when I say professional musicians, I define it more along the lines of guys that gig in wedding bands or bar mitzvah bands and do sessions all the time, not metal musicians, even though metal musicians are obviously professionals, just I am speaking strictly on the school definition, but I know that what they're taught to do is to perform exactly the same regardless of who's in front of them. So as far as this podcast goes, we would be having it the same whether there's two of you or 5,000 of you, it doesn't matter. We'll still try to make it great. And reason I'm bringing this up is because I know a lot of guys who and girls now who will sometimes get a lower budget project or a band they're not that stoked on and be like, this one's just for paying the bills. This one's just for just getting you through. This one's not that important. My message to everyone is to basically kill that line of thought. And everybody, welcome Billy Decker.

Speaker 5 (10:27):

Hello. Hi, my name's Joey Sturgis. Welcome to NAM 2019.

Speaker 2 (10:32):

If you don't know Billy, he's got 15 number ones country mixer, but he also works with lots of up and coming bands. He works with bands of all levels. So I just want to go back to the first question. Yes, sir. The first question was whether you're working with someone that's gone 10 times platinum or just doing a demo, do you approach it differently at all? Do you do anything different?

Speaker 5 (10:59):

I think the thing that's probably kept me in business for as long as I've been doing it is everybody gets 110%. It doesn't matter if I'm doing a demo with you or her record right there, you're both going to get the same treatment, the same sounds, the same customer service. The only difference is you're going to pay me 200 bucks a song, she's going to pay me 2,500. So that's it. But it's the same across the board.

Speaker 2 (11:24):

And I'm sure that lots of the smaller bands you've worked with have come back multiple times over the years and then become the bigger bands or artists you work with because of that.

Speaker 5 (11:36):

Yes, and I'll be honest with you, every record I've ever done, I've gotten by doing a demo for them or even a shootout, a blind shootout where I just put my money where my mouth is and say, I will mix this. It happens a lot in Nashville where they'll give two songs to two different mixers and then they'll both work for free or both get paid and the record label or the artist or producer will choose which one they like the best and that's who gets the record. And I will always step up and do that for free if necessary. Because be quite honest with you, machine, I never lose. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. You like the challenge

Speaker 4 (12:16):

Though, don't you?

Speaker 5 (12:17):

I do, I do. It's exciting.

Speaker 2 (12:20):

Thank you. That's what I thought you were going to say. As far as customer service goes, could you talk a little bit about that? Because you're actually really great at it. The reason I'm bringing that up is because most producers suck at it just to put it blindly. Most of us don't like using email, don't like communicating with people, don't getting involved with that whole aspect of life. But it's absolutely crucial and you're a perfect example of it. You get back to me right away every time you don't make me wait. I imagine it's exactly the same with your clients. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 5 (12:58):

I learned a really good producer in Nashville once told me, don't ever let an email go past 24 hours and don't ever let a phone call go past 12. So say it's 10 in the morning, by the end of the day, I will always call whoever has called me that day back. A lot of times if you don't, you might miss a gig. You know what I mean? As far as customer service goes, I tell everybody I'm the McDonald's of mixing and I'm really no different than say you're driving through getting a burger. The lady at the checkout or the guy at the checkout counter is like, Hey, do you want pickles and ketchup on that burger? The only difference between them and me is I'm going to say, oh, you want something mixed? Would you like reverb and delay on that mix? It's the same thing. It's all customer service.

(13:54):

Arguably, once you figure out how to mix, you get to a certain level, everybody's good. I've got peers in Nashville that could probably mix circles around me, but you know what? Maybe they didn't call somebody back. I'm big on smell and scent. So when you walk into my studio, I burn nog choa nonstop. I've actually had people say, you know what? You're not the best mixer in the world, Decker, but you got the best snacks and your room smells good, so I'm going to come back. So it's all people. It's all people. I mean, you've got to be good. You've got to know what you're doing. But I guarantee you, probably five of you out there can smoke me in a blind shootout mix. You know what, but my room smells better and I got better snacks. So there you go. It is all about people treat people the way you want to be treated and they will come back and back and back. I'm working on steel half his clientele as we speak right now. It's not working because his room smells good too.

Speaker 4 (14:52):

I want to say I relate to that and I think that's awesome, and I'm trying to be like that. But I mean, I want to run something by you. What about all the, I definitely think there's a thing, and if you ever reaching out to producers, just know this. I definitely think there's a certain number of producers that maybe they're not going to say this out loud, but sort of ultimately think, oh, maybe if I don't get back so soon, maybe if I do this I may look important. Do you concur? Do you feel, I mean, I feel that, yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:31):

So you mean purposely not

Speaker 4 (15:34):

Say purposely or just they're not going to have these good business ethics rule sets that Billy has, which I think are great, but I think there's maybe they're older guys, maybe they're of other genres, whatever. I think there's a sec of music industry people, a r people booking agents, record producers that fall into this, have this thought, no, by me, I've got these credits. And by me not getting back, I am like a dog. I'm setting my A type presence personality. I'm not getting back. I mean, that's good for discussion too, not that I'm promoting to do that.

Speaker 3 (16:11):

Right? So what I would say about that is any kind of preconceived little strategy formula, weird thing that is just kind of stupid.

Speaker 4 (16:24):

Definitely

Speaker 3 (16:24):

Because you're working with people and if you're trying to dance around them and create these weird perceptions and things like that, people can see right through that. And if they can't, they're also, if they can't, then they're going to formulate some kind of weird idea of who you are. And

Speaker 4 (16:43):

What about someone trying to reach one of these business people, producer people, and this is what they get. Should they stop? Should they try to keep at it? Should they take it personally? Someone else? What's going to happen? The big problem with not everyone gets Billy Decker. No,

Speaker 2 (16:58):

But the problem with playing those games is that if a producer plays those games, someone else who doesn't play those games will take the gig. What'll happen, and all those guys that you're talking about who have that attitude who are typically older, they are going to get phased out by people who are hungrier and younger and who can do the same amount of work. That's my opinion. They're going to die. Basically,

Speaker 3 (17:23):

Something that changed my outlook in this regard is I heard Mark Cuban say something about, they're going to take your lunch, they're going to eat your lunch, whatever. What that means is every time you take one step backward or you create one layer or one barrier in front of you, there's somebody else that's knocking that down in front of them. And so you can end up in a scenario where you literally get in your own way, like we were talking earlier about the artists you get in your own way because you're trying to make yourself seem important or whatever it is that you're doing. Or maybe you're like, oh, I won't respond to his text message immediately because I want him to think that I'm busy or none of that is going to matter. The most important thing is, like Billy said, reply to every email in the first 24 hours and call back everyone in the first 12 hours. That's what somebody wants. Think about yourself as a consumer and what do you want from the places that you do business with. You want instant communication. You want instant feedback. You want to know that you're actually talking to a person and you don't want a fully automated, there's people doing these automated sequences and all this stuff.

Speaker 2 (18:41):

I can give you an example from URM. There was a time period where our average response time on customer service, we've got a lot of subscribers here who I'm sure have submitted support tickets at some point in time. There was a point in time where we said, between 12 and 48 hours as you're going to get a response between 12 and 48 hours. And then one day we're like, this is bullshit. That is way too long. We want our average to be one hour. And when we changed it to one hour and we actually held people to that standard, less people started leaving. It was amazing. You can look at the graph, there's spreadsheets month after month after month of us changing that to one hour from 12 to 48. It was a massive, massive difference. And the same applies with what they're saying is if you don't get back, this is, especially for those of you who got producers who suck at this, which is I think all of us at some point sucked at it. Get good at it. Just get good at it, basically. I think

Speaker 3 (19:52):

You should take it as seriously as the record making process. Communication is the biggest barrier for so many businesses and literally for so many creative collaborations, I'll give you producer, collaborating with an artist, you need to have a good line of communication. So it's the same thing in the customer support part of it,

Speaker 4 (20:16):

Did I bring it up from not my way of being, but growing up in this industry and trying to reach out on the other side and being taught that with all these important people I'm not going to get and how can I deal with that? And it's hard to not make it emotional at times. So it's like the conclusion is even taking business out side, whether it's you're looking at it religiously or not, just do try to do unto others as you want done unto yourself. And I follow that. I've followed that my whole life with people, all person to person, people type interactions.

Speaker 2 (20:57):

Well, if you were a musician reaching out to machine to produce your record, you'd want to probably hear back pretty quickly. You'd love that, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (21:07):

Yeah. The flip side would be so stoked if I heard back quick, I'd feel important.

Speaker 2 (21:13):

Yeah, exactly. And I can tell you guys that in all my experience working with music industry people, the ones that get back somehow, they end up being my friends and we end up doing the most deals together. Strange, right? It's like magic. Who would've thought? So what else? It sounds like you wanted to say something.

Speaker 5 (21:35):

Yeah, just to sum up the last five minutes of the conversation, just don't be a dick. I will say it quietly so we don't get in trouble.

Speaker 4 (21:47):

What were you about to say? I was whispering. Don't be a dick. I like saying that word, Dick.

Speaker 2 (21:53):

We all do

Speaker 4 (21:54):

Publicly.

Speaker 5 (21:55):

Dick, dick, dick, dick, Dick, Dick, dick, Dick.

Speaker 2 (21:57):

All right, so since we're at that point in that conversation, we're going to call this one done. But I want to thank three guests. Joey Stir. Well, not guest, co-host, partner. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you Machine, the producer and Billy Decker, our podcast, if you enjoyed this conversation, thank you. If you enjoyed this conversation, just go to M Academy and click podcast. And we have 210 and more than that actually, think about 220 episodes of this kind of stuff with these kinds of people and myself. And

Speaker 5 (22:35):

Last but not least, thank you to our fine host, Mr. Ail Levy, everybody. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (22:44):

See you guys later. The Unstoppable Recording Machine podcast is brought to you by Airball Audio. For nearly a decade, airball Audio has been helping musicians and recording studios improve their recordings by offering high quality outboard recording equipment in doit Yourself pit form. Check out the full line of compressors, mic pre amplifiers and doit yourself [email protected]. Airball audio, do it yourself without compromise. This episode of the podcast is also brought to you by Cher, legendary microphones, cutting edge wireless systems, premium earphones and headphones. Cher, the most trusted audio brand worldwide. For more information, go to sure to ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit press the podcast link today.