JAMES PAUL WISNER: Producing Underoath & Dashboard, Building a Studio From Scratch, The Power of Mindset

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host Eyal Levi. This show is brought to you by URM Academy, the world's best education for rock and metal producers. You know us for nail the mix, but today I am here to tell you about Ultimate Drum Production, a brand new course that's going to completely transform the way you think about and record drums. You're going to be hearing a lot more about it in the coming weeks, but in the meantime, head over to ultimate drum production.com to learn more On this episode of the URM podcast, I've got a really great guest, Mr. James Paul Wisner. And what I really, really liked about this podcast is that we spent a lot more time talking about the mindset and the workflow and the type of determination that you need in order to go from nothing to something or from unknown to known or from dreaming to doing.

(00:00:52):

We talk about everything he did in the early days and how he leveraged that to have a really, really big career. And for those of you who don't understand how to stand out in your local markets or who don't know how you're going to get more work or let people know about how great you are, this is the episode for you. So without further ado, here goes James Paul Wisner is a multi gold record producer and mixer, as well as a multi-instrumentalist who's responsible for records that are considered the greatest in the respective genres from under oath, grind, shaking release, their only chasing safety dashboard, confessionals the places you have come to fear the most. Not to mention working with powerhouses such as Paramore, hence like houses. I see stars of many more. And kind of like me, James comes from a musical family having both parents in the industry. His mother is a successful singer, songwriter, vocal coach, and his dad is none other than Jimmy the Wiz Whiner, who's worked on over 100 records and has 36 Golden 20 new Platinum awards, which is nuts. So welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:01:54):

Thank you so much, man. Great to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:01:56):

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here. And I was actually just before getting on the podcast, I was dropping my dad off at the airport. He's flying to Korea right now. He's a symphony conductor. Oh wow. He's going to go, yeah, he is going to go do a month in South Korea, so I know what it's like to come from a musical family. And so I was wondering, okay, so you come from a high quality musical background. Did you begin learning recording at a young age or did you start with music and instruments?

Speaker 2 (00:02:31):

Well, about five years old. I started messing around with the piano and I had some lessons, but I was very quick with my ear, and so I kind of had my own train of progression with that. And my dad had a demo studio in his basement, and so it was really around 11 years old. My mother asked me to make some sort of recording, and around 11 years old is when I discovered The Beatles and they completely freaked me out and I listened to nothing but the Beatles for about two years, and I was

Speaker 1 (00:03:10):

So when you say discovered, do you mean that, did you find them on your own and did your parents introduce you to them?

Speaker 2 (00:03:18):

A friend of mine did, and we even had a little band and I was playing drums, but as I got into 'em, because they had such a big impact on me, I was also fascinated with the recording techniques. So one of the records in particular, Sergeant Peppers, they had two, four track machines, and my dad had a four track machine and a two track machine in his basement. And so what I did is I would do four tracks, and this is 11 years old, four tracks on the one machine and bounce it down to the two track and then go back to the other machine and add another two tracks. And so I did a couple of eight track recordings like that, and that was kind of my start into recording.

Speaker 1 (00:04:01):

And did he show you what to do, or did you just watch for a number of years and figured out yourself?

Speaker 2 (00:04:11):

I basically just figured it out myself because I was just really into it and I'd gone in with him to the studio a few times and I was just pretty fascinated with it. But it was really, like I say around 11 where it was a complete 180 and I just got very obsessed with the whole thing of music and then starting to record.

Speaker 1 (00:04:39):

Did you by any chance surprise them when you showed the, I mean, that's some big stuff for an 11-year-old to figure out how to bounce between multiple tape machines. That's pretty impressive stuff

Speaker 2 (00:04:55):

I did with my mom in particular. And yeah, it was just like the beginning. And then at a certain point I moved down to Florida because my folks had divorced and my dad was in New Jersey and that's where I was doing that. And

Speaker 3 (00:05:11):

Around

Speaker 2 (00:05:12):

12 years old, I came down to Florida and my mother is incredibly supportive and even built, took the garage and made a studio out of it. So in my high school years, I had this eight track reel to reel a task am and was starting to just develop basic recording with that and we would record these covers of Rush or Led Zeppelin, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (00:05:40):

That was actually kind of my next question. When I was growing up, I wasn't exactly pushed to go into music, but they certainly did not get in my way. And anytime that I showed promise for anything, they did support it. I mean, they were a little skeptical about a few things like electric guitar as opposed to classical music. But as I went along, they definitely helped it out a lot more than friends of mine who did not have musical parents, for instance. So I'm just wondering, did you feel an obligation to go into the music industry or were you encouraged to do whatever you wanted and it just so happened to be music?

Speaker 2 (00:06:26):

Yeah, my dad didn't really push me on anything, and he was very supportive, but it wasn't like a thing from either one of them. I mean, my mother was very supportive once I started getting into it though, they were totally cool with it. I think it's interesting though because you had very classical parents, and so then you took a very different direction in the type of music you went into.

Speaker 1 (00:06:54):

Well, it is kind of funny because I guess when I was 11 or 12 or 13, I wasn't allowed to listen to rock music. They didn't allow us to watch MTV or Listen to Rock or any of that. It was other than the Beatles. Other than The Beatles, it was all classical music.

Speaker 2 (00:07:16):

Interesting.

Speaker 1 (00:07:17):

And my grandmother actually went behind their backs and gave me the doors and gave me Led Zeppelin, gave me Black Sabbath, actually would buy me, bought me Nirvana records, kind of when my dad found out he wasn't happy, but he eventually went along with it and was cool.

Speaker 3 (00:07:39):

Right, okay.

Speaker 1 (00:07:40):

But my grandmother actually totally went behind their back and corrupted me.

Speaker 2 (00:07:45):

That's funny.

Speaker 1 (00:07:46):

It was kind of cool. Now thinking back on that, it seems kind of crazy.

Speaker 2 (00:07:51):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the one thing for me, I know my mother in particular wanted me to have the lessons and at a certain point, and I had the studio down in Florida and I said, I have to say that the lessons are actually getting in my way because I was so realizing that my ear was developing and then the whole technical side at the time was just very much getting in my way, and she wasn't happy about that. And I actually made her a deal. I said, listen, give me six months to see what I can do with the studio on my own. And then at that point, if you still feel that I should be taking lessons, unfortunately at the end of the six months, he had no problem. So

Speaker 1 (00:08:33):

That's kind of similar to how it was with guitar. They made me pick up classical guitar. They didn't know the difference between the styles of, they didn't know the difference between acoustic and a classical or that electric guitar players play with a pick, and it's essentially a completely different instrument. They just figured electric guitars make noise, but he's going to need to learn classical guitar or we're not going to buy him an electric guitar. So I had to prove it for six months, and then after that, they had to, because that was the deal. They got the guitar, but they insisted it wasn't going to happen any other way.

Speaker 2 (00:09:22):

Interesting. Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:09:23):

I'm actually kind of glad about it now. I'm glad that that kind education was imposed. I would've never chosen it,

Speaker 2 (00:09:33):

And

Speaker 1 (00:09:34):

It's stuff that definitely helped out over the years. But So you say that it took you about six months to get to a point where she was cool with what you were doing on a practical level?

Speaker 2 (00:09:47):

Yeah, I mean, at the point, I mean, I'm 15, 14, 15 years old, and so when I was showing her the results that I was getting by doing it on my own, it was enough for her to not press the point. So

Speaker 1 (00:10:04):

Awesome. That's really cool. Were you taking paying clients then, or working with your own band? What were you working on?

Speaker 2 (00:10:17):

Well, I had a writing partner of mine at the time, and I actually primarily played piano. I picked up guitar when I was about 15, but my writing wise was more piano based, and so I was recording originals with my writing partner, and then I had a band where we went out and played Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath and stuff like that. We'd go around to the clubs and very fortunately had a couple of really talented guys, particularly the drummer, a guy named Steve Murphy. And so yeah, we would record, there's a song by Rush called The Trees. We did a cover of that, but mostly it was actually just originals at the time. And so I tried to do these big elaborate originals with the eight track. And yeah, that's basically all I did go to school and then come back and do that.

Speaker 1 (00:11:13):

So I want to key in on the fact that you played piano first. I know that at least on a school level, and I actually agree with this, people think that piano is the best instrument for writing because it's laid out for it, as opposed to guitar where certain notes happen multiple times, you have to think about fingerings positions, all this stuff, notes don't sustain very long. There's a lot of things about guitar that make it not as, I guess, intuitive or as powerful or versatile of a writing instrument as just say a piano. Do you feel that way? And did you ever feel that way?

Speaker 2 (00:12:08):

I don't look at it like that. The way to me, they're two different instruments that, because I'll write songs both on piano and on guitar, so they both piano on one end. Yeah, it's all laid out. And so as far as being a little more melodic and just there's a certain flow at that. And then guitar has its own thing with the way the chords are. So I've never really looked at preferring one or the other. And so it's more just a matter of being different, but definitely with piano for me, in terms of a logical sense of the way that it's laid out and the way that I started. Yeah, I agree with you on that.

Speaker 1 (00:12:51):

This is coming from someone that sucks at piano, by the way. I never got good at piano. I got good at guitar and

Speaker 2 (00:12:58):

Okay. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:12:58):

I was encouraged to learn piano and never really did it too well, and I always regretted it because every really good writer I knew played piano to some degree.

Speaker 2 (00:13:11):

Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:13:14):

I dunno. If a 13-year-old came up to you now and said, I want to get good at songwriting, would you suggest a particular instrument or what would your suggestions be?

Speaker 2 (00:13:28):

I mean, it's interesting if you're saying rock or heavy music, I would say guitar. If it was an overall sense, I'd say piano if I'm looking at starting on one. And the thing for me is that each instrument kind of gives you a different type of inspiration. And even the difference between acoustic guitar or electric guitar, electric guitar, that is a certain feel. And I mean then we can get into depending on the amp tone and all that kind of stuff. So does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (00:13:57):

Absolutely. How many different instruments do you play?

Speaker 2 (00:14:02):

Well, let me see. I guess four or five. If I look at keyboards, guitar, I can play bass, I can play drums. I can think a drummer much better than I can play, so I can play very basic type of drums. But yeah, I'd say that's it.

Speaker 1 (00:14:17):

I find that with drums, I feel like the minimum requirement for a producer is to at least be able to think like one. Yeah, because then you make suggestions that are physically possible and grounded in reality as opposed to making suggestions that are more suited for an octopus or something.

Speaker 2 (00:14:38):

Drums are so important as far as laying down the groundwork of what you're putting all the production into. So I get into certain riffs, certain moments that the drums create before a section, another section, or if it cuts out. So yeah, it's basically it's that foundation.

Speaker 1 (00:15:01):

So back to piano and writing though, do you have a background in harmony? Do you know all the theory? And if so, does that translate into when you work with bands?

Speaker 2 (00:15:17):

Actually, no. And it is something now that I'm older that I would like to get an understanding from the technical side. But like I said before, I took as far as developing my ear and what sounds good. So it's basically my ear that I go on,

Speaker 1 (00:15:39):

And I think that's probably the most powerful way to do it anyways. I'm guessing that the answer's yes, but I need to confirm. I can tell you from my own experience, like I said earlier, there were certain styles of music that were not allowed at my house. Were you exposed to a wide variety of genres when you were a kid due to your parents? Or was there not much music at the house?

Speaker 2 (00:16:08):

There wasn't a whole lot of music at the house really. My father was kind of doing his thing, and like I say, sometimes I would go into the studio with him, but at home it wasn't like there was music always playing or anything like that. I mean,

(00:16:25):

I would look through his collection of records, but like I said before, when a friend of mine introduced me to The Beatles that had this hypnotic completely consuming impact on me, and then truthfully for two years straight, I just listened to nothing but the Beatles. There was just something about the energy in there, just something about there was a perfection to it, and I think it had something to do also with the times that they were creating and just had a big impact. And before then, there wasn't anything in particular really, other than me just kind of playing around with the piano and developing that.

Speaker 1 (00:17:10):

Do you still revisit the Beatles stuff?

Speaker 2 (00:17:13):

Yes, I do occasionally, and I'm more interested now because they're starting to remix the records. So Sergeant Peppers just got remixed and George Martin has been an influence of mine, the producer and his son, Giles Martin at Abbey Road. They've been going through this whole elaborate process to remix the original stuff. So lately I've been interested again in it.

Speaker 1 (00:17:41):

There was something on the anthologies that came out, the ones that came out, I don't know if there's more, but they came out in the early nineties where they did, I forget which track, but they did a remix of one of their heavier tracks with drums up, and I believe that it was Paul playing and he was bashing the drums, and I had never heard one of their songs with drums at a level where I would want to hear it a more modern recording.

Speaker 2 (00:18:10):

Right.

Speaker 1 (00:18:11):

And it just sounded crushing. It was amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:18:15):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:18:16):

I couldn't believe how good it sounded.

Speaker 2 (00:18:18):

That's the thing that you hear on the remix. Those engineers were so freaking good and they were getting really good tracks. And that was an article that I read that Giles Martin was saying that they were kind of expecting to maybe hear the tracks not sound so great, and they said the quality of them were pretty incredible.

Speaker 1 (00:18:40):

It's interesting, I kind of went on a Beatles kick a month ago for a night and just watched a bunch of live videos, and I do this once a year or something. Now I used to be obsessed with them, and in these live videos, they're actually really, really good technically for the era and what they were doing. And I was especially watching Ringo and he actually hit harder than I thought. He had it more together, I think he's given credit for or than I realized. And obviously the engineers then were amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:19:27):

Yeah, well, there's a cool YouTube video and it's all these great drummers that are talking about how amazing Ringo was and the feel that he had and that it was a very particular style and that what he did was not subtle for them. So yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:19:48):

No, he does all kinds of non-traditional things and very creative things. And it's funny, I'm not a huge Metallica fan, but I mean obviously the biggest metal band of all time and Lars is not considered a great drummer, especially when you can compare him to lots of the other drummers in metal bands. He's definitely technically not close to a lot of people who came after him or even parallel to him, but he has, if you really start breaking down his patterns and his beats and where he places fills, it's really non-traditional and it's really interesting. And I think that that's a big part of why their songs work for people, but he doesn't get any credit because he's not that tight live and he doesn't play fast double bass and he can't play to a click

Speaker 2 (00:20:48):

And

Speaker 1 (00:20:49):

All these things that you expect out of a good drummer he doesn't do, but his stuff's really creative.

Speaker 2 (00:20:59):

Yeah, yeah. The great bands will have a drummer that has a very particular style, and this album that's coming out at the end of the month for this band, the Dangerous Summer, the drummer, Ben Cato is an incredibly musical type of drummer. So the way that he's playing his parts, it was just a real pleasure to work with him because he did interesting things that really worked with the writing of the material, and it has a huge impact on the end result.

Speaker 1 (00:21:37):

So when you're, I guess, considering a production project, or don't know if you hunt them down or they come to you, but just say in the courting phase, is there anything in particular you look for in drummers? Does that ever help, I guess, identify that you want to work with a band?

Speaker 2 (00:22:00):

Yeah. Well, I like to first off talk to bands months before they come in and have a couple of meetings throughout the process. And one of the things as I've been doing this, you start realizing certain conversations that are wise to have with bands months before they come in. And even initially considering the band, it's like, can the drummer play to a click? And not just play to the click, but can he groove to it? Does he have experience with that? And then also to encourage him, Hey, practice playing to the click and get it to where you're not just trying to keep time, but that you're able to really flow with it. Is that answering the question? I may have missed a part.

Speaker 1 (00:22:46):

Yeah, it does. And I think that that's the mark of not just a good drummer, but a really good musician is one who understands how to groove with the click. Because lots of times what works for a part or a take is not playing right on it. It's slightly behind or slightly ahead.

Speaker 2 (00:23:10):

Absolutely depend on absolutely feeling

Speaker 1 (00:23:12):

You're going for. So yeah, that was actually a tough thing for me to learn how to do as a guitarist. I made friends with this bass player when I was at Berkeley who basically told me that I sucked. And the reason I sucked was because whenever I tried to play to a click or metronome, I was playing right on the beat and that it was just vanilla and I sucked. And what I had to do was start practice the exact same things I was practicing, but only have the metronome on two and four so that I mentally had to place the one and the three. And he just told me that that would work and that I would develop my pocket and somehow I'd be able to learn how to place things behind the beat from there. And it worked wonders. So anyone who wants to get better at this who's listening, try a very, very simple thing of putting your metronome on two and four, and it's harder than you think. And it works. It works wonders. At least it did for me.

Speaker 2 (00:24:18):

Yeah, that's a really good point. And that's a big deal because I'll notice that a lot of drummers tend to be a little bit ahead of the beat, and occasionally when I work with a drummer who's really got experience or understands those aspects, it's awesome because then we can say, Hey, okay, this part, just drag it a little bit. And yeah, it makes a big difference in everything.

Speaker 1 (00:24:45):

Do you ever say you really, really like the songs, but you do your homework on a band and maybe there's just one talented guy in the band or something like the singer, or what's your approach then, do you think about hiring a session guy or editing it or trying to get the drummer to get better? What's your initial instinct when you approach that situation?

Speaker 2 (00:25:14):

Yeah, there have been some drummers where I probably could have brought in somebody else. And I'm trying to think. I mean, it depends. If it's like a label thing, then it's definitely something to look at and address. But I haven't really found where a band that's signed, I'm having a problem so much with the drummer, unsigned demo type of stuff. I've had a couple of situations and I haven't really gone the route of bringing somebody in. I haven't had a situation where someone's so bad that I can't make it work. It may be something that I talk to the band about and say, listen, the drummer needs to, you should have somebody who can be a little more competent if it comes down to it. I've definitely had some situations where someone comes in and they don't quite know their parts, they don't have it down, which that's in one of my initial speeches too, is please, even though we're going to be changing parts or doing some stuff, go over your stuff and come in and because the band is expecting a lot from you as a producer.

(00:26:30):

So part of it I realize, is to let them know what I need from them so that we can expect a good result. Because if they're coming to me and wanting to just unload this thing of incompetence in certain areas, it ends up being very time wasting and not fair. And so I've realized that I have to lay that down. I had a situation recently where we started the drums and the drummer just didn't sound like he knew it, and I was like, Hey, what's going on? And I said, well, I'll tell you what, I've got other things going on. I'll keep working on those things. Why don't you go home and get this down? I need that from you. Otherwise, it is something I call spending twice as much time to get half the result. And it's like, yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:27:23):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:27:24):

And another phrase for me is I never want to be waiting to accidentally get it right. Listening to somebody be playing something and it's like, I hope he accidentally can play it. Right. And for me, I haven't really gone the route of getting studio musicians to replace stuff. I've kind of developed some techniques to work around musicians who aren't as good as honestly they should be. And then also there's sometimes where it's like if I'm finding that the player is very rough, I'm like, Hey man, who else in this band can play this part? And there's usually a guy, the guy who is the primary writer who sometimes can play better than their own guitar player. And I'm like, listen man, I need you to play it. Or I'll play it in the moment if it's a particular type of part.

Speaker 1 (00:28:18):

So it sounds like you're, and I want to go into more of your initial speeches, but it sounds like you are trying to impart a sense of partnership with the band rather than you're just a dude that they hired to do X. It sounds like you're approaching them from a standpoint of, we're in this together and I can't do my part without you doing yours. Help me out. You basically.

Speaker 2 (00:28:49):

Well, yeah. Different producers have different attitudes and sometimes it depends what the situation is, but mine is what I tell the band is I want things to come from them before I start a guy with ideas all day long. I'll come in and in my own experience in different situations, I've done certain projects and then I go, I was a little heavy handed. I never want the band to walk away from what we did and then have them be like, who is this being that I just came in and just made my mark and bulldozed my way through it.

Speaker 1 (00:29:34):

And that's actually something that bands will get bitter about even if they're successful.

Speaker 2 (00:29:41):

Oh, sure. Right.

Speaker 1 (00:29:43):

I've talked to bands in person or read it interviews even after maybe they released the biggest album of their career and sometimes they feel like it was more the producer's album, they won't go back even if it had the most sales.

Speaker 2 (00:30:02):

Interesting. Yeah, that's kind of always been for me, what motivates me is wanting to get together with a group of talented guys and bring out what their potential is. And so I want to facilitate that and point that in the right direction, but I want it to come from them. And ideally, I want to work with people who are bringing something and then we can play ball from there. And that's the intention that I have.

Speaker 1 (00:30:38):

So one thing that I always encourage people who want to learn production, want to make it their careers, is to do as much work before you even get the band in your studio. Do as much homework as you can on the band and develop a dialogue with them and figure out what the problems are and try to get them solved in advance in months and months in advance. Not like two weeks. If you find out that the drummer doesn't hit very hard and you need that, well, he better start working on it a few months out so that he doesn't lose steam in the studio after half a song, for instance.

Speaker 2 (00:31:29):

Absolutely. To me, those conversations that are months ahead are extremely important. Another thing for me is having the band sit down and talk about what they're trying to do. What kind of music are they making? I've had a particular thing when I was doing the under oath, they're only chasing safety, and we started background vocals and we were doing all these different types of layered background vocals. And the next day a couple of the guys were like, we don't want to do that. Some of the guys loved it, they were all into it. And then a couple other guys were like, this is making it too poppy. And it was right then where I was like, I'll tell you what, that's fine, but why don't you guys just get on the same page and then we can, because I hate re-tracking.

(00:32:25):

You get into that situation where somebody in the band was like, oh, I didn't know we were going in this direction, or some kind of thing like that. And so I learned pretty early on, I was like, listen guys, make sure you're all on the same page. Get your communication. And also as a band, what are the bands that you're listening to that really are doing it for you? And it's nice for me to just get a sense of that so I can get a sense of where to point my creativity with things so I'm not giving them ideas or going somewhere that they're not really looking for.

Speaker 1 (00:33:01):

So on the topic of inner band communication, that's a very interesting one because let's be real, they're not always the best communicators and it's so important. If you notice that they might have a communication problem, would you step in and try to help them with that?

Speaker 2 (00:33:21):

If I see there's a problem? Yeah, because it gets in the way of the process. It gets in the way of the result we're going for. Fortunately, it's never been any, I haven't had any too many instances of it being that kind of problem. I had one band that I had to say, listen, we got to really get our communication. Everyone was just arguing, and then they would argue about the way to resolve the problem, and it was just wasting a lot of time.

Speaker 1 (00:33:55):

That reminds me of my band. One of the reasons that there were multiple reasons for why we didn't continue, but these problems actually in a band level start way early before we were signed or anything, we had these communication issues and didn't take them seriously. And over time, as the stakes got higher and higher, these issues became more and more of a thing. And communication is everything in my business now. My two partners in it are very strong-minded people, and I'm a very strong-minded person. We're three alphas working together and it's working great. And because we talk everything out, everything, and we are not afraid to piss each other off,

Speaker 2 (00:34:59):

We're

Speaker 1 (00:34:59):

Not afraid. We're not afraid to shoot each other down. And we all understand that it's for the same purpose at the end of the day, but I've never had that kind of communication in a situation before, and I've also never had anything work out this way before. So to me, communication is the single most important thing you can do to ensure a project success.

Speaker 2 (00:35:22):

A band is if you've got four or five guys, it's that thing where in a way, it's like a marriage. It's a lot about communication. So I find it, yeah, one of the things too, because it's having the space to disagree about stuff, and one of the things I talked to the bands about is because sometimes the band comes in and it's like, alright, we're going to make this awesome thing, and with that mental expectation that everything's just going to go smoothly. But if one thing I've definitely learned is that sometimes it's the tension and the not going smoothly. It's the breakdowns that are needed to get to the end result. So a big thing for me is getting clear on what we're committed to and when you're committed to something, then it's also allowing the space. If we have some bad moments, sometimes the singer, and it's with singers a lot, there's a lot of psychological stuff. Sometimes things don't go well, you're having an off day, and then the guys can get really bummed and it's kind of a thing where it's like, look, this is part of what's going on and we're going to have our ups and downs, but we're committed to something, so let's just keep going and we'll get there. And that way it isn't seen as this major problem that we're going through this so that we can end up with the best thing we can.

Speaker 1 (00:36:54):

And so when you talk to bands up front, are these some of the things that you talk about when you first approach a band? You said that you give 'em a speech basically, or you cover certain topics.

Speaker 2 (00:37:09):

Well, this is if we're working together, and it's that first conversation of just introducing and getting to know each other a little bit, and I get a sense of what are they trying to do? Where are they at? If it's a second or third album, what are the things I'll find out? Things like with other people that they worked with, what did you like and what did you not like as far as working with another producer? And so that's kind of the point where I'm talking about the process in general, getting clear on our commitment. And part of that thing is letting them know that it may not always be this wonderful thing. We may get a little depressed or feel like, oh man, we can't find this, or however, it's usually never anything major, but that just to give room for that and then everything will be fine.

Speaker 1 (00:38:03):

It's interesting what you say about being committed to something because I just want to echo what you're saying, but when you all share the same goal, I do know that you share the same goal then for some reason when you don't have such a good day or something doesn't go as well as planned in the process of getting there, since you're all on the same page about where you're trying to go, you're not going to have the problem of four people having four different outcomes in their head and four completely different ways of how we're going to fix this problem that are incompatible with each other. It's a lot more of a team effort that way, and for some reason it's just a lot easier to weather the tough times.

Speaker 2 (00:39:05):

Absolutely. And I am sure, I can't imagine in the business that you guys have been building, which is amazing what you guys have been doing, and that you have to have that shared commitment. It gives it, you're basically creating as a group, the context, the bubble that everything is sitting in. And that way it's not such a big deal if there is a disagreement or something. No one is just looking at that minute detail and making it more than what it is. It's really that everyone's committed to something. And another thing that I tell the bands too is that we're trying to make something great. We're trying to make something that is the best that we can do. So there's a really good chance that some moments are going to come up and be confronting. If we're pushing each other, I'm pushing them. I want to see what they're made out of when we're doing stuff, I want to see how far we can take it and still feel authentic to them. So it's just allowing that space because we're reaching for something

Speaker 1 (00:40:13):

That makes me think of a scenario just if anyone's listening and you don't really understand what we're saying, tell me if this is a scenario that kind of encompasses what you're talking about. So let's just say that the shared vision of a record is to have it sound very organic, but powerful, say like a Mastodon record or something. And in order to do that, you're going to need the drummer to actually play the songs really well and really hard. And there's kind of room to, there's no room in to say, okay, we'll just edit that, or

(00:40:54):

We'll just replace that or whatever. It has to be what it has to be. And so if the drummer has a bad day, he is generally awesome, but his feet just don't work that day or something. You're not going to have everybody, one person saying, dude, we can just program this song. Fuck it. Let's just program this song. And one person being like, dude, you can just edit or whatever, everyone, if you all have the shared vision, this is going to be an organic but powerful record, then you just have to try it again the next day.

Speaker 2 (00:41:26):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:41:26):

And hope that the drummer, yeah, there's not going to be that all those differing ideas that basically go with a different vision.

Speaker 2 (00:41:36):

Absolutely. And I think that is the role part of the, the producer is to keep your eye on the vision, because sometimes people are getting into details and it's veering off if you're the guy who is keeping that vision in mind and supporting the guys to do what's needed. So in that scenario, it's like, yeah, just come back tomorrow. If it's not quite happening, then that's what we need to do.

Speaker 1 (00:42:06):

So let's go back in time a little bit, and on the topic of vision, I'm thinking back to what we were originally talking about of you songwriting and recording when you were a teenager, at what point did you start to, I guess, realize that you needed to have a vision for a project, or at what point did you start to develop your own vision?

Speaker 2 (00:42:30):

Yeah. Well, I had the studio when I was a teenager, and I had the classic scenario of my folks getting divorced, and then basically I was out on my own. And so I kind of went from a comfortable existence and being able to have some means and have the studio to live in with two other friends of mine in a trailer. So it was kind of a wake up call. And so I drifted for a bit and I was about How old were you when that happened? I was 18, it was right after I graduated high school. And the summer I became 18, everything fell apart.

Speaker 1 (00:43:10):

But you already had years of, I guess training,

Speaker 2 (00:43:13):

Basic, basic training, making music of making some records. And so a few years went by and I was just in survival mode. And so for me, it was kind of, and I kind of had this thing, somehow something was just going to happen and everything would be great. And after a few years I'm like, well, nothing's happening. And I kind of had a personal moment, a spiritual type of life moment where it's like, Hey, man, I knew I had ability, but it was the reality of you ain't that special. No one's going to come and do this. You need to move. And I guess the big realization for me at the time was, if you don't do anything different, 10 years are going to pass and you'll be in the exact same place. And something about that realization was a combination of scaring the hell out of me and making me realize, man, this is it.

(00:44:09):

Let's start doing something. And so I'd realized that trying to be an artist, I really didn't have it for the commitment to that. And I thought, what do I really want to do? And the thing for me was I loved recording and I wanted to be in that. And so that's where I just started, and I was delivering pizza at the time, and I just started taking some money and putting it aside. And then I had an opportunity, and it was kind of like a serendipitous sign from God for me where a guy, I'd done recording as an artist at a studio in Miami, a place called Studio Center, and they had an SSL in the A room, and then they had a MIDI programming tracking B room. And he said, I'm letting people train for the B room, and whoever figures stuff out first I'm going to start giving work to. And at that moment, I was like, well, I'm going to be the guy

Speaker 1 (00:45:09):

That's

Speaker 2 (00:45:09):

Going to get this work. And I basically just got very single-minded and I thought, I'm going to make this happen. I was delivering pizza like 50 hours a week and then going to this place like 50 hours a week and got.

Speaker 1 (00:45:26):

And you were 18?

Speaker 2 (00:45:28):

No, at this point, I'm in my early twenties, I'd say about

Speaker 1 (00:45:31):

23.

Speaker 2 (00:45:32):

I let a few years pass by and just being in survival mode. And

Speaker 1 (00:45:39):

So that sense of the clock ticking was starting. Clock was starting to get a little louder,

Speaker 2 (00:45:44):

Very much. And I was thinking about who I was at that point, and if I was really trying to meet somebody and want to have a family and things like that, I'm like, I'm not really where and who I want to be to bring somebody into my life to do this. And so that whole thing was like, dude, I knew I had talent, but I knew I had to make stuff happen. And so that's how it started where I was working at this other studio. And until I got enough money to slowly piece by piece, build up my own little studio and then start just doing it myself,

Speaker 1 (00:46:30):

It's pretty amazing what can happen when you feel that sense of urgency. And at the same time, that realization that the universe is not going to hand you anything. And if it does, it is an accident basically. I mean, luck happens. It does, but you definitely shouldn't count on it. And also you can encourage luck by focusing on what outcome you want.

Speaker 2 (00:47:03):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:47:04):

Focusing hard.

Speaker 2 (00:47:04):

Yeah. Well, that was a big thing for me, and maybe this starts getting into the metaphysical side, but I basically at that moment was like, I'm going to make this happen. I didn't give myself an option to do anything else.

Speaker 3 (00:47:21):

Fact,

Speaker 2 (00:47:22):

At the time, delivering pizza was the only thing I could stand to make money. There was no way that I was going to be in some type of nine to five type of thing. And once I just started having that single-minded intention and I did whatever, I mean, I did visualization. I made sure that negative stuff wasn't having any kind of impact on me. I didn't have time for it. I basically was like, I don't have time for my own negative crap. Let's keep my eye on what I'm trying to do here. And then I noticed out of that, and I think I found that to be the way things seem to work, that if you have that kind of intention, then certain things start happening. I definitely had some serendipitous events happen after I'd been doing it for a couple of years, and they really led me to a direction that I wanted to go in.

Speaker 1 (00:48:18):

The thing about allowing negative thoughts to take up too much mental real estate, I don't know if it's a metaphysical thing or not, and we'll never know, but I do think that whatever you focus on intently, you're going to somehow create a situation that's kind of like it so much in the same way that a really insecure guy in a relationship with a girl, I'm sure you've met this guy that always thinks his girl is cheating on him and brings it up constantly and talks about it to all his friends, and turns himself by focusing on this too much, he stops doing the things that made the relationship work in the first place, and in essence becomes a different person to his significant other. And sometimes she does end up cheating on him, but not because he predicted it, but because he kind of became a whiny loser.

Speaker 2 (00:49:35):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:49:40):

You can really sabotage yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:49:42):

Yeah, because if I took one moment, particularly in those early days, well, I remember I had set up my gear and I basically was doing stuff out of my second floor apartment, and I had set up the studio and I put in so much time to wanting to build this studio up that once I set it up, I looked at it and I had this incredibly fearful realization, what the hell am I going to do with this stuff? I had nobody at the time I had just built, and now it's real, all of a sudden was like, and that was like, okay, well let's start this. And it's not only that if you are, I've kind of noticed I don't want to make too much out of it, but sometimes when you're really trying to stretch outside of yourself and you're dealing with other people, sometimes other people are not being so supportive and you're kind of dealing with outside circumstances and you just got to blow that off. You cannot, for me to get into the drama of it or to be right about it, no time for that. It's like, what are you doing? What's next? If there's failure, great, let's just keep going. And that ends up being what I found what it takes. Otherwise, you've got a lot of stuff that can waste your time. The only positive thing you're getting is something to be right about, but it's not forwarding anything in your life. You're not creating the life that you're trying to create.

Speaker 1 (00:51:12):

So you're human though. You're definitely human. And part of being human, I think is having doubts.

Speaker 2 (00:51:23):

And

Speaker 1 (00:51:23):

So I think that what separates, there's lots of things that separate someone who's made it work from someone who hasn't. But I think one of them is not that they never have negative thoughts, but it's that they know what to do with them. And so I'm wondering, what did you do besides the understanding that you don't have time for that

Speaker 2 (00:51:48):

Right

Speaker 1 (00:51:50):

In the moment

Speaker 2 (00:51:51):

With it? Oh, yeah. No, no. I mean, there is a lot of pain, and it's only something for me now. Well, really over the last couple of years where I suffered through a lot of stuff, but fortunately had enough of a sense of knowing that what was important was to keep my eye on my commitment and my goal. And so for me, yeah, I definitely had moments, I mean, for me, particularly in that time period, dealing with the computers and trying to record on computers and all kinds of the never ending onslaught of technical issues of trying to just jump

Speaker 1 (00:52:39):

Like we just had with

Speaker 2 (00:52:40):

Ion. Right? Right. Well, that's part of the thing, but it was brutal. I would have stuff that would just, it was brutal. And I would be calling tech support guys and they'd be like, oh, we haven't heard of that. Keep us updated on that, Jim. Let us know how that problem goes. And I'm like, thanks a lot. Yeah, you have your pain. And I'll admit I had some breakdowns because you're trying to create something and some things don't go at all the way that you want it to, and it can knock you down. And the thing is to just get back up and just keep going. So that was the thing is just not stopping really,

Speaker 1 (00:53:20):

Man, back in the early two thousands, that's also when I got my computer rig, when I first started recording, and I do remember the technical problems, and I do remember being on with tech support, and I do remember discovering problems for them.

Speaker 3 (00:53:41):

And I

Speaker 1 (00:53:41):

Also remember how it affected people who were in the same situation as me, and there are some people who did quit over it or who

Speaker 3 (00:53:51):

Would

Speaker 1 (00:53:52):

Stall projects for six months or more over stuff like that. Whereas for me, it was like, I am going to just take this pain and keep trying. And eventually I got a computer that worked and figured it out. It took a couple years, but I know people who never even got past that because I mean it, it was really frustrating, really frustrating back then to try to work. Sometimes all you want to do, getting to work, doing the work is hard enough, but it was hard to even get started because of the technical problems.

Speaker 2 (00:54:34):

And it was also just coming into being switching over from these A recorders that were recording on VHS tape and then all of a sudden you're able to start doing audio tracks in the computer. It was that thing of like, okay, we just got to keep going here and find the thing that works and not give up.

Speaker 1 (00:55:02):

So you wandered for about five years until you got that job. And when you got that job in Miami, I'm assuming that that's the studio you were just talking about, the one in the apartment, that's the one you were building on the side?

Speaker 2 (00:55:21):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55:22):

Okay. How long did it take between when you first got that paying gig in Miami to when the studio that you were building on your own was capable of even having a client that could pay you and you could do the work?

Speaker 2 (00:55:38):

Yeah, I would say it was over about a three year period.

Speaker 1 (00:55:42):

Okay. Sounds about right. I mean, I'm trying to get timeframes on this because I think it's really important for people coming up to understand that this shit takes time, it takes years, and a lot of the years are not necessarily spent getting good. I mean, obviously you do have to do that part, but that's almost assumed if you're going to be trying to record people professionally or do anything professionally, but specifically in the creative fields, your skills are assumed whether or not you can deal with that other bullshit. What's going to really make the difference? So three years till you could take clients, and what kind of clients were you getting at first?

Speaker 2 (00:56:28):

Well, I was taking whatever I could. My thing at that point was really segueing out of delivering pizza into doing that. What I did, and this was the thing of just you kind of make it up at the time was just making it up, was they had a local music magazine, very local music magazine called Rag Magazine, and I was down in Plantation, which is by Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And so I put out these ads and I knew that was a bit lower than what my competition was doing, and I would do that. I had the ads, and then I was going to open mic nights in Miami and I had a little portable CD Walkman type of thing, and I'd hear someone good and I'd say, Hey, this is the kind of stuff I'm doing. And just little by little just started getting any type of client for me at the time, 15 bucks an hour, learning and doing what I loved and just slowly building things up was the only way that I could see to start it off.

Speaker 1 (00:57:43):

It's amazing how ads worked back then. When I first started my studio, I placed a classified ad in the local music magazine and it worked. I advertised three songs, free a hundred bucks a song after that, and my phone started ringing immediately.

Speaker 2 (00:58:09):

That's a great, the three songs free. That's awesome. That was good.

Speaker 1 (00:58:13):

It worked. It definitely worked. I was just thinking, these people don't know who I am. There are people that are better than me in town. I'm 24, 25 years old, I think, and I need a lot of people to come through so that I can have, so I can get good at recording other people. I just need some fast turnaround with this, and maybe it'll turn into some paying clients. I'm sure that there's going to be a few of them who want to do 10 songs, but they'll be happy to only pay for seven. And I'm sure that there will be some people who take me up on three, and if I do a good job, we'll come back and it worked, worked from that point on, I could make a living with it. I mean, not a great living, but I could pay for rent and stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:59:09):

Yeah, no, that's awesome. Because you put yourself in the game, and this is where I find that if you're in that kind of commitment and doing what it takes and you're in the process like that, that tends to lead to other opportunities that will build in that direction that you're going in. So

Speaker 1 (00:59:32):

You just have to figure out how to insert yourself. And obviously an ad will not really work now, so it's totally different now, but there are things that work now.

Speaker 2 (00:59:43):

Exactly. That's the thing

Speaker 1 (00:59:45):

Worked then.

Speaker 2 (00:59:46):

Yes, it worked then and now. Yeah, I suppose it would be a different story. I think it's really whoever's looking at doing this that they just have the attitude of, I'll find what it is that works because it's got to be out there. It is out there, and it's just a matter of being willing to find it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):

There will always be the tactic that works, and I don't want to get into what tactics work now too much. What if someone listens to this in three years? I want this to be relevant. The tactics will change. There might be completely different sites where people find producers and who even knows, but the strategy remains the same, which is that you have to figure out how to insert yourself in the game. It kind of doesn't matter what kind of money you make at first, what matters is that you're getting into the game and it is becoming a regular part of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):

Absolutely. And here's the thing that I noticed as I was starting to do stuff, and I really also noticed this later where it was like when I look at what I did from a more objective stand place, there was a bit of how did I even do that? Because there's so many reasons always for why things could be bad. There's plenty of reasons that your mind will come up with for why it's not realistic or whatever downside of things are. And I remember in particular that I'd been doing it for a while, and I was already doing more of the indie type of bands, and a guy came over who had been trying to work his way up through a studio in Miami, and I remember I was still doing stuff out of my second floor apartment, and he was looking around and he's like, how did you do this? And he started telling me how hard it was for the way that he was going about it. And it let me know that having that single-mindedness and not consciously not dwelling on any of these potential reasons of not to is really the only way that you can do it, because there's always a reason for why you can't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):

So it was a dude who wanted to do the same thing and

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):

Didn't understand how you managed to do it. He was looking around and he was looking at all the stuff that I had already done, and I'll never forget it because he had this disbelief. He was just like, how are you doing this? Because he had his whole drama story of how tough it was. And it wasn't that I didn't believe him, but it was just that thing of, in any situation, there's going to be a bad reason. If you look hard enough, you'll find a crappy reason for why it's going to be so hard. But I just never, I knew early on to not dwell on that. And what I found out of that is that good things, it seemed to be that good things would come out of that kind of attitude.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):

It's so easy to find reasons why something won't work, and I find that that's the attitude that most people have about things that I guess seem, I don't know, ambitious or unrealistic because they don't know anyone who did it or for whatever reasons. So man, that's one thing that I've done and I still do actively, is I ignore those people and I try to cut them out of my life as much as possible, realized that I'm sensitive to that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):

Yes. So I,

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):

Yeah, I can't let them send me into any sort of a tailspin, so I just don't banish it for my life.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of what I would call managing your personal space to be responsible for the environment that you're creating so that you can try to create something, because it takes a bit, particularly if you're an entrepreneur, you're not in some company that the structure is already there. You're basically making up the whole thing. And so you've got to manage that space. So yeah, if you've got somebody where, even if it's subtle or however, if it's kind of a downer where they're coming from, you got to take a look at not whether what they're saying is true, but if it's having an impact on you to do what you got to do to keep things positive.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):

Well, also it might be completely innocent on their part. Too true. They just don't get it. You, you have your own vision, and definitely through communication like we were talking about earlier, you can make sure that you're on the same page with people, but at first especially, and when you're talking about people that are not your business partners who are just people in your life to expect them to share your vision is kind of naive and also just disrespectful and not that smart. How could they have your vision? You, it's just expecting the impossible almost. So I just learned to kind of not even share it with people unless it was already something or it was somebody who I already knew was an entrepreneur and got it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):

Yeah, I think you're making a really good point because if you're trying to get approval or expecting people to be in a certain place before you've really come through with any results, it's not a realistic thing to expect them to be anywhere. So there is that part also to me where that you're not taking anything personally. People are just doing what they're doing, and it may be a reflection like because you're really trying to reach for something and whether they're conscious of it or not, that they're not taking on that attitude. So it is just not something that they can relate to. But then I noticed too, if you're having results, people respond to that. It's kind of good not to be sharing with people. I think it's a really good point that you're bringing up.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):

At least be very careful about it, especially when you're in the infancy of an idea because the last thing you need is for you to start believing that it's impossible. Then you're going to make that true.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):

This goes for bands too. You

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):

Can't Oh yeah. The egg

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):

Can't listen to the naysayers. So about this guy, just out of curiosity, so when he couldn't believe how you did it, did he ever assume that someone just gave it to you or that it was luck or something?

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):

I don't remember the exact answer that I gave him. I mean, he asked me at the time, and I know I gave him some sort of answer about it. It was something I will never forget because of just how it was kind of an affirmation of what, at least at that point that I had created for myself. I'm pretty sure I answered him. I don't remember the answer though.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):

Well, I was just curious because this used to happen to me a lot back when I built my first studio and the band got signed and good things were happening. A lot of people's response was not, he worked his ass off, or he personally handed out 25,000 CDs that he printed in his house on a CD burner, which eventually led to connections that they didn't say that they said his dad gave it to him or something, because then they don't have to hold themselves accountable for the work that they're not doing. Then it's just like he was lucky his dad gave it to him. So when I don't have results, I just don't have a dad who will give it to me. And it's like, no, man, you're just not doing the work, but you don't want to admit that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):

Yeah. Yes. And we were certainly in an age where when you look at YouTube comments on anything, it kind of goes into how much non-truth, and to me, the whole thing of opinions and interpretations, and to me, that's not really where the action is. I personally don't even care so much about my own opinion and I'm more interested in results. And so you find people who kind of talk about the story of something or their opinion about it and it will have little or no truth to it, and how can anyone know really without really talking to you just as how can I know anything about anyone else unless I really talk to them about what's happening for them.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):

Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that's one of the things to cut out if you're really trying to create something, the question is, is how much is it really doing to get to where you need to be? And it's that difference between talking about something and then really getting down to here's what I'm committed to and these are the steps and doing them.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):

Yeah, that's great advice. I agree with everything that you just said. If you're like most producers, you're dialing a drum sounds the old fashioned way by trial and error, swapping out drums, heads and mics until you finally find something that works oftentimes for several exhausting and tedious days. Sound familiar? Right? I know. I have spent up to a week getting drum sounds in the past before I knew some of this stuff. So guess what? It doesn't have to be so painful. Ultimate drum production is our brand new course that teaches you the scientific method for dialing in the perfect drum sound on the very first try. Exactly the first try, not the hundredth try. It explains in extreme detail the sonic character of every single component of drum sound with exhaustive profiles of every kind of drumhead shell, material bearing edge and hoop, as well as ridiculously detailed tutorials on mic selection, placement and room choice editing and mixing. And we understand drum tone at such a fundamental insanely deep level is having a set of tone legos that you can use to easily build the sound you hear in your head. You don't need to guess and check, you just assemble the building blocks. However you want to find out more and get access to exclusive pre-order pricing, head over to ultimate drum production.com/and we'll see you in class.

(01:11:09):

Okay, so back to your story. So it's three years later, you built this place, people are wowed that you could even do it in the first place. When did it start to pick up into, I guess, getting closer to working with, I guess bands that broke your career, for

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):

Instance? Yeah. Well, at first I started and I was just doing whatever I could just using the studio and just making money at an hourly rate. And then one day I met the drummer, he was running the drum shop at a music store and he was in a band called The Vacant Andes and they were looking for somebody to record their stuff. And so we ended up working together and a guy had just joined the band and that was Chris Carava of later on to be further seam forever in dashboard confessional.

(01:12:10):

So we started like that and we had done a few things together. And then I also at the same time, so I did well, I worked with them and then I worked through them. I started working with other local bands and I did a split EP and one of the bands was Further Seems Forever, and that was on a very small label and it was a guy Chad Johnson, and he had a very small label called Take Hold Records out of, I think it was Alabama. And through that, then he called me and he said, oh, I love the work that you're doing and I've got some other bands. And so then Chad went on to Tooth and Nail, and these are the series of events to me that started to happen to lead me to those opportunities. So when Chad joined Tooth and Nail and they picked up further seams forever, and that was my first real bigger gig. I'd actually with Chad, had done a couple of the under Oath records because Under Oath was another band that he had. And so I'd done a couple albums with them and then they signed a tooth and nail as well.

(01:13:26):

Then Chris came to me and he said, Hey, I'm doing this side project of acoustic stuff and we did four songs and then that led to doing a full acoustic album called Swiss Army Romance, and that's where things started really taking off for him. And then the further seems forever record, and that's kind of the time where all this momentum started happening with the bands that I was recording.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):

So how many years is this after you I guess decided you wanted to do this?

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):

Well shoot, this is about a good five years into it where I'd say about five years. I then worked with the vacant Andes and now we're getting into the year 2000. 2001 I think is when the moon is down further seems forever came out. And so it was like five going into six years. That's when the momentum really started to go.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):

Okay. That's not a trivial amount of time at all.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):

It was a very slow build.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):

Yeah. Were you already by that point making a full living and good living? Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):

Yeah. I had gotten out of I'd say three years before that, at least three years, three to four years before that that I was able to stop delivering pizza and just generated enough money on my own to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):

Okay. Yeah. So even after becoming pro, it still took years?

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):

Once again, I just wanted to emphasize for people that shit takes time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):

A long time usually. So can we talk, now that we've got into lots of the stuff that you're known for, I actually have some recording questions about some of this stuff. We actually have some people who submitted questions for you.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):

So I want to ask you a few of these and then I want to get back to talking about more of your story.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):

Alright. This is guy's real name, by the way. Miami Dolphin is asking, sorry if this is a bit long-winded, by the way, this is his real name. I've seen his driver's license.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):

Oh really?

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):

Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):

I know. Okay, so he says, sorry if this is a bit long-winded. About 10 years ago you mix and produce one of my favorite songs from therefore tomorrow called When Used to Be Used to It. After listening to that entire album, I realized I wanted to be not just a mixer but a producer. Can you go over anything you remember from the tracking of that album or the production of a little Faster? Side note, the intricate of the second verse intricacies of the second verse of Remember when is still something I go for I reference all the time, whether it be for climactic buildups or song structure.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):

Interesting. I kind of remember the song, but not Totally and There for Tomorrow, which the guys are great. And that's, is it Chris Camarata who's now drumming for dashboard, I'm sorry if I got the last name wrong. And then Micah, who's a singer who's an incredibly talented dude, that record actually we started off, we did an EP before that as a demo and things went real well with those guys and they ended up getting signed and I think it was Hopeless Records. And then we had this record a little faster and that was a cool experience because actually four of the songs David Beith did the pre-production on and then he also mixed those songs. But I did the tracking on the question though. I'm sorry, what was the particular of the

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):

Question? Well, he actually just was wondering if you can go over anything you remember from the tracking or of the album or just of the production of A little Faster?

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):

Yeah, I mean I think it might've been the only time where David Beth had, they'd gone up and spent some time with him on four of the tracks and then the guys came in and we did the whole record. I mean, I'm trying to think anything particular, there was nothing really that I did necessarily differently. I do love that record. I mean I thought the songs on it were great. I do know too because at the time I mixed that on the SSL and my chops were okay, but not great. And David Beith is David Beith, and so I was trying to listen to the stuff he had done and trying not to at least embarrass myself.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):

Was that your first time being on the same project as someone that's basically, I guess a total total. I dunno. I consider him an A-list for rock and this stuff. Yeah. Is that your first time working with someone of that level

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):

As far as somebody who was doing pre-production on some of the songs and we talked back and forth a few times. So yeah, that particular experience. And like I say, when I was mixing, because I was trying to do some stuff more on the SSL and had found a studio where I could do work out of and we'd arranged a good rate. And like I say, I was just trying to make sure that I did a decent enough job not for it to be to sound so A and B between the two mixes.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):

Was that scary or stressful or fun or all of the above?

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):

Well, it was a bit stressful. I mean, it was different too. It was a different experience because there's something to me about the working relationship you have with a band. I find that all the environment of what album it is for the band has a big impact in that. If there's some success, the attitude of the band changes. And so the dynamics change with each record and having David in the mix. And David has a very different style than mine. So it was interesting for me that they went and worked with him and then coming back and it didn't end up being a problem. I loved what we did and there wasn't any problem per se, but it was a different thing with them going and working with somebody with a much different way of doing things and then them coming back and then us doing the rest of the record.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):

Man, that reminds me of when I used to work under pretty awesome producer. There was a band that I was his assistant engineer, and I remember this one band had gone to another producer who was also a really good writer and in a band they wanted to emulate and they produced or wrote or had very, very developed pre-pro versions of six of the 12 songs with that guy. And what he did was basically 180 from what we would do. And so it was very interesting trying to get that to work with the rest of the record and not pissing him off and not ruining what he did.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):

Interesting. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):

Yeah, we had to rerecord everything.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):

Oh wow, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):

Yeah. So kind keeping it in the spirit of what that guy wanted, but he is a great producer in his own, it was kind of weird. It was kind of weird. I remember that being the main thing that it was kind of a weird thing to try but ended up being positive because got better as a result.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):

Yeah, I know David very much knows what he's going after, and so I was kind of bracing myself to see if I didn't know what he thought of the work that I had done or that be listening to stuff I was doing and was not going to be happy about it. And very fortunately, everything went well.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):

I mean, I'm sure he would've told you if he wasn't cool with

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):

It. Oh, I knew that. Yeah, there was something he wasn't and that's kind of like, oh, I hope we'll see how this goes. But it was actually very cool and it was great to listen to what he would do with the band. I mean, I learned the big thing that I learned from David because he did mix a few things that I tracked and it's to be simpler than to not have, you don't need a thousand things going on all the time. And that's been one of the things that sometimes can be a struggle with a band that they want so many parts and then in the mix they want to hear everything. And definitely with David to only have a couple things featured and push other things back so that your brain can tune in on, that's obviously worked where the listener can tune in on those things and not be distracted by 20 other parts going on.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):

And it's interesting what a band can sometimes imagine is possible in their heads about a mix. They have an idea in their heads of, and I've done this too when I was a band member, when I wanted to have raging fast death metal with a ton of synths and orchestra and multilayered vocals, and our producer was just like, dude, you're going to have to pick or you have to rearrange this because this is not all going to, you're not going to be able to hear this all. Something has to give. And

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):

Exactly, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):

It was hard to get me to understand it back then actually. So I know from a musician standpoint that's a tough pill to swallow. How have you gotten musicians to understand that?

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):

Yes, that's a great thing and very much, well, I tell them what my job is, which is that I'm looking at the song and what's going to have the biggest impact emotionally to the listener. So my job is actually to look at the song as a whole and not look at everyone's part and that I understand that their parts can be precious to them, but at the same time, if you're coming to me, one of the big things I'm going to tell you is that not everything, it's not going to always be about listen to my cool part that I'm doing if it doesn't work emotionally for what's needed in that section or maybe to pick our moments. And so that's the thing I'm kind of saying that I'm the guy looking at the whole song and that it's not about the individual parts, and that usually sets a good tone. I've had a couple moments. I had one particular with a bass player where literally when he started tracking his parts, I'd say about 10% of his notes were root notes. And I stopped and I'm like, dude,

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):

That's it. 10%.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):

Yeah. I mean one out of every five chords would actually land on the chord. And for some reason in this scenario, we were doing the bass after some of the guitars were laid down about a minute into it. And it's amazing how much a bass can change a song if someone's not playing the root notes. I stopped and I am like, dude, what are you doing? And he goes, I don't like root notes. And I immediately stopped the session and I was like, okay, guys, we got to have a meeting here because this is ruining it to me. And the other guys agreed. I don't think the guy was in the band that much longer.

Speaker 1 (01:26:11):

Well, that's a major issue right there, because like you said, it's a amazing how quickly bass can ruin a song if they're not playing the roots or not playing the right thing. It can create a whole different chord. Oh, totally. Yeah. If they're playing a different note than the root or it can create a different harmonic motion, it can cause a lot of havoc if it's not designed to work that way. And if the guy's not into his role as a bass player, it's almost like that relationship can't continue.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, particularly if the guys are wanting to reach a certain type of audience that things start getting simpler. And I ask them, I say, listen, do you want your fans to be 10 musicians coming to check you guys out at your gig? Or do you want a big crowd who's really that more fan-based type of thing? Or do you want to be a musician's band? So that's one of the things about really finding out what the guys are looking to do. I have no problem with making a musician's record, but let's all know that before we start.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):

Absolutely. And I did have a question for you, and I think you already answered it, but the question is just that basically a lot of the bands that you work with have very high energy music, both crystal clear recordings. I was wondering how do you go about achieving that level of clarity without making the song album sound sterile? And it sounds like you just answered it by taking out non-essential things.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):

Yeah, this is what I learned a lot from George Martin, the Beatles producer, where it's about how all these different parts work together. So I'm very aware and sensitive to the rhythms that each of the parts are doing. It's not just the drums creating rhythm, but there's all types of avenues of layering of different types of rhythm with the guitar part, with the keyboard part, with the bass part, and particularly how are all those parts relating and grooving with the phrasing of the vocal? And that's a big thing for me is what's happening with the phrasing of the vocal and making sure these parts are creating this hole because otherwise you get that wall of shit, it just sounds like an undefinable wall of crap

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):

As opposed to being a fine tuned machine where everything works together,

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):

Where it really has that tastefully done orchestrated sound and when we get it right and when the mix is right, it's just freaking awesome. And yeah, there's a lot of great guys who do some great work like that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):

So speaking of vocals, since you just said that, it's all based on that, can you talk a little bit about your approach to tracking vocals?

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):

Well, one of the things, and I prepare the vocalist for how I like to do things, and that is that I'll tell 'em that when we come in and when I do track, there'll be a couple takes where I want them to just do the song the way they're feeling it, but then I'll do other takes that have a certain approach to it. So I may say, you know what, on this take be more emotional than you think you need to be. And I start finding that spot where it's overdone. I actually want to hear too far. And I tell them, listen, the worst that it's going to be is it's going to sound stupid. And we don't, I make sure the band, sometimes the band is in the room and they're laughing and I'm like, listen guys, this is about let's be supportive. I need the singer to put his guts on the table. And so I kind of find out emotionally the kind of range, because sometimes a lot of times when I hear the demo I'm like, okay, this is sounding cool, but I could hear where the singer could really communicate more effectively. So there's the over emotional takes and then over emotional takes. And then enunciation is a big thing that I find to do. A couple takes. A lot of singers, they're not always pronouncing their words as good. And to me, annunciation, regardless of the volume, it conveys power and authority.

(01:30:37):

And one of the things I'm looking for from a vocal take is for them to just be owning the song that is the thing that people are listening for. And you want to have somebody where a guy like Anthony Green where you listen to him and you're like, Jesus, this guy's,

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):

He's so good,

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):

So freaking good, and it's because his ass is on the table and the emotions there. And I'm not so much with guys like that where the annunciation is always the thing. I kind of feel that out as well. But I get a couple of takes where they're over enunciating, and the thing for me then is to, it depends who the singer is. More often than not, I like to then put the pieces together and create something. And that's one of, to me, if I had a real strong point for me that I find I'm good at is putting the different vocal pieces together to create a really good emotional vocal. Now, a couple guys like Jason Lancaster Go radio who just is really gifted and it's just like, dude, just do three takes beginning to end and let me see what I got. And when a guy like that, some singers is like when they get in the right space, they're on fire and they can just go in and just kick it out. So I feel it out with each singer

Speaker 1 (01:32:01):

Sometimes in that case, obviously just get out of the way.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):

And so it sounds like the artistic emotional side is number one. Does the technical gear side of it matter to you as much or is that equally as important? Where is that for you? On the hierarchy?

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):

It's equally as important because if the recording has a clarity and an openness to it, to me that increases the vibration of the music itself. Because music to me, part of it is that it's vibration and we respond emotionally to vibration if it's clear. And there isn't this unheard layer of dirt and fuzz going on if you've got bad clocking digital clock. Oh

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):

Man.

Speaker 2 (01:32:56):

And it brings me back to where the album was amazing, but for me it kind of showed what not great clocking sounded like it was the first periphery record where he was really doing it. And I may be wrong on this, but it just had a little bit of a fuzziness to it. The record's amazing, and it certainly didn't stop anything, but as far as what I'm shooting for. And then of course later as they kept going, the quality of course went up significantly. But my early days, particularly when that would be the struggle to hear stuff and kind of be sad about what I'm hearing in my head. And fortunately these days, I like the level of clarity. So it's very important both of them are.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):

So just for all the engineers out there now, everyone's going to be curious, what is your ideal vocal chain, or do you have an ideal vocal chain or a go-to?

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):

Well, one of the things that made a nice difference, I did a lot of research and it's not cheap, but when I was studying some of the mixers, the bigger mixers out there as far as what are the pieces of gear that they're using to get a really phenomenal sound, I started realizing how important your digital clock is. And so at a certain point, and I'd say this was in 2010, I just went for it at a really good gig and I was like, screw it. I'm just going to go for this. And I ended up getting the antelope audio, I got the Trinity clock with the atomic clock. Oh, man,

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):

That's the good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):

It is. It makes a difference. And for me, my attitude, one of the things I am into, in fact I've been doing this over the last few nights, is I've been building up my collection of high resolution audio stuff that's at 24 bit 96 K or 24 bit 1 92, or even something called DSD. And I'll listen to some of these audio file recordings where everything was about getting the best recording possible.

Speaker 3 (01:35:12):

And

Speaker 2 (01:35:12):

To me, it's been of tremendous value to hear what the cutting edge of audio recording sounds like because it definitely puts it in perspective when you're hearing an MP three of something that wasn't recorded with that same kind of detail.

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):

It's very easy to forget how good it can be if you're just used to YouTube for instance. That's one of the main ways people consume music and just, this is obviously nowhere near 24 bit 96 K, but if you put on a service like title for instance, because they do, I think they the highest quality streaming out of any of the big services, man, if you put up a title in hi fi mode versus YouTube, the difference is major, major. And it affects the music in, it's not subtle how it affects the music and the feel. And especially once you start to have more layered music, this starts to make a much more of a difference and down to how much the rhythms of other layers actually punch through, how much you can actually

Speaker 2 (01:36:30):

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):

It's not subtle.

Speaker 2 (01:36:34):

No. To me, there's been certain points where when I do make an upgrade in something to hear the impact, to me a big element because I record out of my home. And one of the things that the big studios have is that their electricity is clean. And so having some things, I have a dedicated line, and recently I picked up and it was a bit of a risk. The other thing is you take a little bit of a risk of getting certain pieces of gear and to see, it's like, okay, either I'll have to just sell this thing and take some sort of loss, or it's going to make a difference, and I upgraded my power conditioner and I couldn't believe how much of a difference. It's like it takes away a layer of dirt that you didn't even know was there. And it translates into, instead of mixing to compensate for things, you've got more room, the frequency range is more usable, so you can go in different directions that maybe before you'd end up having to filter notch, filter out certain frequencies. But now because the sound is cleaner, it's more usable. So on one end, you take what you have and you do it, but you do yourself a disservice if you have a love for music to not know what the higher end sounds like and to reach for that at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:38:02):

So it shouldn't stop you if you can't afford it, but be aware of it and go in that direction,

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):

At least know, because I promise you, and it's interesting because I find a lot of people, and even some people are very passionate about not caring or even this conversation of, well, since it's going to end up like this anyway, how much of a difference is it making? And it's like all the difference in the world. I mean, particularly if you listen to some of the nineties before Pro Tools was such a big part of things like Eric Valentine, who's one of my idols, who is so deeply committed to genius, genius, genius. And so his first record when I was mixing, there was a band called The Academy is, and I was mixing on this SSL, and I just threw myself into mixing on that board, and I was using his first record with Third Eye Blind as a reference, which was a thoroughly frustrating experience.

Speaker 1 (01:39:08):

I can imagine it would make you kind of sad at times.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):

Yes, yes. Because I was turning knobs and I'm like, why am I not able to get what this man is getting? But it was such a great learning, but when you listen to that record that is just that analog through a console sound, and I listened to it just a few months ago with a band, I was like, oh, let me put this on. And it was just like, oh my God, this is what, yeah, you just hear all analog compression and you hear what it sounds like, and it's like, yeah, it's good to know what that does sound like.

Speaker 1 (01:39:48):

But thinking back earlier in our conversation, talking about how negativity can derail you, I also think, and stop me if you disagree with me, but I do think that there's a certain point where sometimes people can distract themselves with gear and not focus on the music or think that they can't get better unless they get a certain piece of gear. And I think that's not a positive thing.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):

No, yes, that's, and I've confronted that myself in my career where it's like, okay, take what you have, because I'm always $50,000 away from where I'd like to be gear wise. So there's almost a, yeah, there. There's a thing that part of managing myself is coming to a point. It's like, okay, if I want something, I'll get it when I get it, and I can't turn it into something or let it limit me. And it helps to take what you have and push yourself as far as you can make what you have work that's wild about doing this is it's also now with the computer and all the plugins and how do I combine these things? There's an infinite way of coming to a sound. And so you have all these great talented producers who are taking their own way of putting these things together and coming up with their own side. There's such a huge creative element in that regard. And that's something that, particularly these days that I'm becoming much more interested listening to what some of these other guys are doing, and they're getting such a great sound. And how are they using their plugins and gear, which is what's amazing about the mix site.

Speaker 1 (01:41:43):

Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):

Yeah, the period of time that we're in that you have access in this tutorial type of way to learn from people who've been doing it. I didn't have that at all,

Speaker 1 (01:41:56):

Nor

Speaker 2 (01:41:56):

Did I, right. And on one end there was that avenue of I could have been an assistant or gone that route, but what at the time, my path was going in a completely homegrown way and I just had to just keep trying stuff until it worked, and I would've loved to have had access to the kind of information that you guys and what's out there on YouTube, and there's just all these different avenues now to learn. Well,

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):

And let's see real lots, there's not as many opportunities now for people to be an assistant, not there were. So I feel like there's that much more need for something now. The mix though, I would've killed for it in the early two thousands. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:42:42):

Absolutely. And yeah, it is wild how things change and what worked yesterday absolutely doesn't work today, but at the same time, it's then just figuring it out.

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):

So I guess in terms of gear, is there a microphone you favor over others or whatever? Or is that stuff down to the particular session?

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):

Yeah, I've had periods where I've had access to a bunch of microphones. I've kind of distilled things down. And so my main vocal mic is this Neuman M1 49 that I've had for a long time. And I find that to get, if I combine it with the right colored type of 1176 type of compression, it just combines, it makes a really big clear sound while also having some character. And then I have another mic if it's a very kind of piercing type of vocalist because the 1 49 doesn't respond well to being very nasally. And so I have another microphone for that, and I found that to work out pretty good

Speaker 1 (01:43:56):

Most of the time.

Speaker 2 (01:43:57):

Yes, I actually have never really, because definitely if it's something that's just like, okay, this isn't working, I can call some people up or however, but it just has been that I haven't needed to, I've been real pleased with the results.

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):

So more on the topic of tracking. Can you talk a little bit about a typical session for tracking drums with you? Do you have a preferred kit to track with or a preferred room? Do you have a preferred method for going about it?

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):

One of the things for me is I have a, I'll talk to the band, I'll see what they have. I have a house kit. There's some people I know that I can get other stuff and we'll just talk about what we're shooting for, but it's not really an elaborate thing. I know I was listening, you had Ramesh on who's awesome and listening to the kind of detail, and I guess a lot of times for me, the budget isn't really there to be that elaborate. And I've definitely had, there's definitely projects here and there that there's room for that, but we kind of go and I kind of have that drum getting the drum sound day and we talk about what we're shooting for and we'll have the stuff and we'll try a few things. It's not quite as elaborate as what he was going for, but

Speaker 1 (01:45:18):

What he does elaborate, I mean, rues is great, but elaborate doesn't always mean better. Sometimes. This is definitely not about esh and just need to clarify this, but sometimes I know I've gotten to mix sessions that come in where it was like 32 microphones on the drums, everything you can think of, and the drums were so out of tune that the rooms sucked. Everything sucked because you could hear just out of tune shitty drums and everything, and it didn't matter that it was elaborate. And I've gotten sessions from people that are 16 and sound amazing or eight sometimes and sound amazing. So I don't think it has to be elaborate to be great.

Speaker 2 (01:46:21):

Yeah. Well, I found what works, and that's part of the thing in my process is part of it is an efficiency thing. And to look at the question of what actually is going to get me the result, sometimes it ends up being different if you're looking at it just like what do we have to do to get there and get there efficiently as well? So I'll tend to just try. I always stay open to trying whatever works. I have a certain way

(01:46:55):

Of doing it. I've got my house, the main living room, and it's on a drum stage, and then there's a high A-frame ceiling, and then I'm using these A SC tube traps. That's a big thing that makes the house work is using these tube traps. And I have a pretty big collection of those, and there's room to move those around to use more or less of those to create a certain vibe if I'm looking for a more roomy vibe or a more up close kit sound. And so that's part of, as well as the mic positioning. Of course.

Speaker 1 (01:47:29):

Yeah. That's what I find is one of the most important things about, especially a home drum room, which I had for four years. I had a really nice one in Sanford, Florida, but still even, so I found that the most important thing was to have options to be able to change the acoustics of the room that made all the difference in the world. Even for example, even if the room sounded great and roomy, there's sometimes where the average tempos on an album are like two 40 and there's tons of double face, and you don't want a ton of room coming through everything. You want it to sound smaller. So I find that that's been, for me, one of the most effective tools to have is portable acoustic treatment for a drum room.

Speaker 2 (01:48:28):

The tube traps have been a huge part of me being able to dial in the kind of sound that I'm looking for. And it is changeable because the tube traps also one side absorbs, but then if you flip it, it diffuses. And so that kind of makes it a cool thing to be able to change around and play with.

Speaker 1 (01:48:48):

So actually, I've got a question here, another question from a listener. This is from Mike Anderson, and he says, James is a phenomenal engineer and producer. I've worked with him on two occasions now, and his questions are, he's got a few. So first one is, how does James place vocals so clear and powerful in a mix while still maintaining the original tonality of the singer?

Speaker 2 (01:49:15):

Interesting As far as, Mike's a great guy and he's very talented. Yeah, it's interesting in mixing over the past year and a half is where I've really gotten into mixing other people's stuff a lot more. And so that's been a learning process of getting in different tracks, and I'm sure you went through the same thing. And so it's an interesting thing to get vocals recorded at different quality levels. And what do you do? So the first thing, so there's definitely a chain of plugins, and one of the things is filtering out what isn't needed. So filtering out that low end, finding the real critical usable frequency range and getting rid of the rest of it. And I tend to do that first to get out any of the, if there's a certain weird low mid sound or however, just to kind of clean it up. And then I use a few different compressor plugins that'll have a different character. And then sometimes using a multi-band mixed in there. And then also usually during the chorus is to mix in a little bit of a distortion, finding that kind of parallel distortion. Is that answering it?

Speaker 1 (01:50:32):

I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:50:33):

Okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (01:50:35):

He has a couple other ones, and I think they're pretty good questions. Here's another round. How does he approach James? How do you approach mixed production notes when mixing songs that you didn't produce?

Speaker 2 (01:50:48):

Yeah, yeah. Different guys will have different things about it. I'll look over the notes, and this is something I've had to kind of feel out as I'm doing it because production notes are cool, but then I find if I'm trying to adhere to them while I'm doing my thing, it gets in the way of me doing my thing, which is part of what they're coming to me for. So I'll look at the notes in general, but then I also kind of do my thing. There's a a very much of a feel type of person with this stuff, and so I'll kind of try to honor both. And so I'll do my thing with it and then look over the notes again and make sure that they're somewhat, and sometimes it's interesting because words are a funny thing when someone's describing something to you. If someone says, definitely when someone says, I want the chorus to soar, it's like, okay, for me, I'm looking of course, obviously the chorus to have an impact, but it's left to interpretation and it kind of comes down to it a certain point where if I do my thing and I kind of look over the notes, if it's still not quite doing it, then it's a matter of getting technical. It's like, well, what to you translates technically to that emotion that you're looking for? And then we'll get into the mix changes from there

Speaker 1 (01:52:12):

To have it work out. I believe that our second podcast episode, second or third, I don't remember, was called Musical Translator. And it's all about how a producer or a mixer job, when you break it all down, that's kind of what the job is, is to take these ideas from the musicians and learn how to translate them into something, into what's supposed to come out of the speakers and what they actually mean. That's one of the main things you got to know how to do.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):

And it's a process. I mean, sometimes I've nailed it right away, and then sometimes my interpretation of what they're saying is initially different than how they're hearing it. And so we work on that.

Speaker 1 (01:53:01):

And I'm sure that sometimes if it's different, sometimes it could be better in their opinion, sometimes not.

Speaker 2 (01:53:09):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:53:10):

You got to just figure it out. So Ruben Sanchez is asking, how do you produce a band like ISC Stars in terms of arrangements and digital instruments? Do you first start with a song only with guitar, bass and drums and then add digital instruments and maybe remove some guitars or bass in some parts?

Speaker 2 (01:53:30):

It depends on the situation because, well, it's a little more often these days than it used to be, but sometimes the bands are doing pretty elaborate demos and sometimes there's a lot of cool stuff in there that could be used or at least be a good starting point. If I'm seeing that there's someone in particular who's good with recording on their own and they've got some elements in there, then I have them make me stems of the audio files and I'll import 'em in and we can still adjust the tempo a little bit. But it's just a starting point. And I'm not sure if I'm totally getting to the question, but I use that as a starting point. And then we're doing the drums into that. Once I sit with it and kind of look at the structure of the song and if there's something major to look at, then we address that as far as hopefully any major holes in the songs have been already dealt with. I have the band send me stuff so that preferably when they come in, we've looked at, I look for their demos to get to a certain point where it's like, okay, I can take it from here kind of thing.

(01:54:35):

If there's something majorly wrong, the whole song just sounds like one big verse. And when the chorus comes in, I don't even know when the chorus is coming in kind of thing. We address that before they come in because

Speaker 3 (01:54:47):

That

Speaker 2 (01:54:47):

Time before they come in is the most valuable and stress-free for them. It's not really great to come in and be like, okay, you got to do some major rewriting. That is not the way that I prefer to work. So when they do come in with this stuff, that major changes have been made, and then as we're doing, I may make some edits to how the structure is going to be and we talk about stuff and take some notes, and then I usually start off with the drums and then bass and rhythm guitars and so on.

Speaker 1 (01:55:16):

Tell me if your experience matches this, but in my experience, and obviously there's some exceptions, but in general, when it's a band that wants a lot of digital instruments and they are like a heavier band or a rock band, and they have that element in their sound, usually there's a guy in the band who does that, and even if he plays guitar, he also programs the shit and will generally have it for you. I mean, sometimes bands expect their producer to just come up with all of it, but most bands who have this stuff, it's part of their sound and they come up with it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:03):

What's interesting, man, is my experience has actually been where that's not the case.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):

This is exactly what I wanted to hear your opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:56:15):

And so a great example, well, it was interesting with hands like Houses. I did the last two records with them. And so the record unimagined, they had a guy, the keyword player, he had a very interesting style to the way he did stuff. And what we did on that record is we combined things. So usually because I get into the programming, if I think it's needed or if they're looking for that, then I'm usually adding those kind of elements. And with him and I on that record, we combine things, but then the next record, he wasn't in the band anymore, and that changed the dynamic of things. And so on that record, I actually really dove down into all the sounds that were out there so that I wasn't repeating things and kind of becoming stale on stuff. And so I did a lot of, most of the programming on their last record.

Speaker 1 (01:57:16):

You just made me think of a bunch of scenarios where what I said earlier, maybe I was talking out of my ass because I just started thinking, you got me thinking about various records where the band wanted that either the guy sucked at making sounds, the one who wanted all the keyboard parts or whatever, the synth parts. Really everything he gave me sounded like a Cassio.

Speaker 3 (01:57:45):

Oh, no. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:57:47):

Or it's just stuff that they wanted. And I either had to come up with it myself or find or contact someone that I knew that was way better than me at programming and get them involved. And that's actually happened quite a bit. So I kind of take back what I said before.

Speaker 2 (01:58:06):

Yeah, I have found the situation where usually I'm doing some programming and I know in a really cool band called Separations, I hope I'm saying his name right, Corey Breneman.

Speaker 1 (01:58:18):

Yeah. Well, I know Corey.

Speaker 2 (01:58:20):

Yeah. So we had three different guys doing stuff. Corey did his thing, he did some awesome stuff. I did my thing, and then one of the guys in the band was adding stuff. And then the challenge was, what are we keeping? What are we not keeping so that it's not just an onslaught of stuff, but then a band that I'm recently, I'm about to mix a really cool band called Never Tell. The Guy had a lot of the programming that he did, and it was such a cool particular style, and I was like, man, I want to leave most of this stuff. This stuff is killer. So I really like it when there's somebody in there and they do their own thing. It's nice to have somebody having their own thing, and then I can kind of compliment that or whatever may be needed.

Speaker 1 (01:59:08):

So for producers coming up or people who want to be producers and mixers, do you suggest that they get a good handle on programming in order to be able to actually do this? And I'm just wondering because there, man, there's some guys I know. I dunno if you know Zach Sini or not. He worked for Feldman for years, I think now he's on his own. Oh,

Speaker 2 (01:59:32):

Okay. Yeah, yeah. I know Zach.

Speaker 1 (01:59:33):

He is a programming master, and there are some guys I know who do make rock records or metal records who also, they're fucking amazing at programming, and it is part of one of the reasons for why they have so much work.

Speaker 2 (01:59:52):

It has been a very valuable tool for me and to stay on top of it because man, it's always evolving. And to me, the whole plugin synthesizer world, that literally stuff comes out that creates genres of music because the interesting sounds that it makes, and that was a thing for me when working, particularly with Hands Like Houses on the last record where when I really started looking what was out there, I was like, you know what? I'm going to invest in some of these awesome new type of sounds. It had a big impact on the sound, and I knew it was cool that it was just coming out just as we were doing this record, because it would a matter of time before a lot of other guys were using these killer type of sounds. So as far as, yeah, it would be valuable to answer your question, absolutely. For better or worse, I think it does make an impact. And if not to hook up with people and have it be part of your team as soon as possible.

Speaker 1 (02:01:02):

That's a big thing that I did because I was never great at it. So I would work with this guy named Eric Gunther, who has been on the podcast, and he joined one of the bands I had him work for called The Contortionist. And basically when bands wanted really good programming and they could pay a little, I would just get him involved. Anything he would do is better than anything I would do, and I definitely think people should learn, but if it's just not their thing or whatever, definitely find someone who can do it. And I have one final question for you because we've actually been on for quite a while and it's been a great episode. This is awesome. Yeah. The last question for Mike Anderson, which is kind of the same question that I like to finish these off with, but his is specifically for vocal production. But what's the biggest piece of advice you could give to producers who aspire to excel in vocal production?

Speaker 2 (02:02:08):

Listen to other guys. Listen to the guys who are the thing that's motivating you in the first place, where study, sit down with something and not get into the details of why is this working. When you hear a record and you're just blown away by the vocal production on one end helps to have that inspired sense of things. And I like to let that drive me, but it's balanced also with having a technical understanding of what is making something work. Why are people responding so strongly to something and with vocal production, what is it about what's happening on a technical end?

Speaker 1 (02:02:51):

Well, James, thank you so much for coming on and weathering the Skype Armageddon and being so open with your answers and being cool to be on for so long. Normally, I mean, this is going to be like two hour plus episode.

Speaker 2 (02:03:10):

Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. A pleasure. A real pleasure. And thank you so much, man.

Speaker 1 (02:03:17):

Yeah, it's been great. I would love to have you on in the future. I'm sure that we could talk for another two and a half hours.

Speaker 2 (02:03:23):

Hell yeah, man. That would be fantastic. Great.

Speaker 1 (02:03:25):

Well, have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 2 (02:03:27):

You too, man. You take care, bud.

Speaker 1 (02:03:28):

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