Brian Slagel: Founding Metal Blade, Discovering Metallica, and The Business of Metal

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Line six. Line six is a musical instruments manufacturing company that specializes in Guitar, amp, and affects modeling and makes guitars, amps, effects, pedals and multi effects. We introduced the world's first digital modeling amp and we're behind the groundbreaking pod multi effect, which revolutionized the industry with an easy way to record guitar with great tone. Line six will always take dramatic leaps so you can reach new heights with your music. And now your host, Eyal

Speaker 2 (00:34):

Levi. Alright, welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi and with me is a very special guest, someone who I've known for a few years and have looked up to for many more years. Basically, I'd say one of the godfathers or kingpins of metal as we know it, person who, which without, I don't know if those of us who love Metal or make a living in metal would even have this life that we know. It's Mr. Brian Slagel from Metal Blade Records. And I know that most of you already know who he is, and if you don't, you probably should. And I know you've heard of bands like Metallica, bands like Slayer, you've probably heard of bands like Cannibal Corpse or As I Laid Dying or Between The Buried and Me or Black Dahlia Murder. The List just goes on. And over the years, the bands that he's either directly helped launch or indirectly helped promote or been a supporting cast member of, for instance, who hasn't heard of Lime of God.

(01:48):

I just found out that Brian was also instrumental in helping that come about another huge band. So this guy basically has helped shape Metal as we know it, and he just put out a book called For the Sake of Heaviness, which I read very quickly actually. It's a very easy read, but one thing I will say about it that besides it being an interesting history of this genre, we know and love, it also has a lot in common with other biographies and autobiographies. I've read about people done great things and there's some themes on that I'd like to explore. But first, I just want to thank you for coming on and for taking the time to talk to me.

Speaker 3 (02:37):

Yeah, man. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (02:39):

Yeah, I actually really enjoyed the book. Like I was saying a second ago, it was cool to read about the history from someone who was there, and it was also cool to find out about all the things you were involved with that I had no idea about the promotional side of Metal Blade and how you guys kept it going even during the lean years is just a very cool book all around and I recommend anyone in our audience to pick it up. There's a few things I wanted to touch on in there that I guess hit home for me.

(03:21):

The first theme was about perseverance. And you said that before you even knew that you wanted to start a label, you would go to 250 shows a year and that you were basically living, breathing what existed of metal back in those days, but that you had no goals of starting Metal Blade or anything like that. You were just in it because you loved it. Could you talk a little bit more about what drove you in the early days when you didn't have some sort of an end goal in mind or you weren't making money, you were still living at your mom's. How did you keep yourself on track?

Speaker 3 (04:07):

Well, yeah, that's a good question. Look, I was just a huge fan of metal and I couldn't play any instruments, so being in a band was not an option for me, and I loved it so much. And like I say, I went to tons of concerts and I was just obsessed with the whole thing and I just was trying to do anything I could to help promote the music I love. So I started the first ever US fans and the new Heavy Metal Review and then started working at a record store, bringing in tons of imports, started helping the local radio station program, their metal show started booking shows around la and then when I realized that there was some sort of a scene in LA with bands like Motley Crew and Rat and Steeler and Bitch and Everything, I was so influenced and heavily motivated by the New Wave British Heavy Metal and they're kind of do it yourself attitude that that's when I got the idea to put together a compilation album of local LA heavy metal bands.

(04:58):

And again, doing none of this thinking that I'm going to have a career doing this or anything. All I really cared about was I love this music, I want other people to hear it. Sos I work at a record store is a blast because people would drive in and I'd say, Hey, you like Metal? Have you heard Iron Maiden? And they'd go, no. And I'd play, oh my God, this is great. Or have you heard accept or Merciful Fade or whatever it was. And people would just drive up and say, Hey, what do you have that's new, that's cool. So that was really fun. And it was kind of the same thing with doing the first compilation record was just putting it out there and having people hear the music and realize what was going on in la. And again, I was never thinking of starting a label or anything like that, and I was just doing it for the love of the music. We were all doing it for that back then, if you'd have told any of us starting in 82 or 83 Slayer, Metallica, Motley crew, anybody that was in LA at that time, that this would go on to be such a huge thing and that we'd still be talking about all this stuff 35 years later, we all would've said, you're completely nuts. We were just all music fans who loved what we were doing and were just lucky enough to be in LA at a cool time.

Speaker 2 (06:02):

That's a pretty strong love. I mean, how many years was it between when you first discovered it and say when you were making enough money to move out of your mom's house?

Speaker 3 (06:13):

I was quite a long time. I spent three years actually in mom's back of my mom's house in a garage that was not air conditioned by the way, which is,

Speaker 2 (06:21):

Oh my god,

Speaker 3 (06:21):

Really fun in Woodland Hills when it's 108 degrees in the summer. But I just didn't care. I was living this really insanely fun life because I was involved in this music that I truly loved and I was one man band. I did everything from the type setting to the artwork to producing the records, to making sure they got to distributors, the manufacturing, everything was just all me for those three years. And I think back at that, and it was seven days a week, probably 18, 19 hours a day. And I look back, I must've been insane, but I didn't care at the time. It wasn't like this is a job or this is work. It's like this is just really a lot of fun and you kind of just have blinders on from everything else because there's so many cool things happening, working with so many great bands and starting to see this scene flourish. And it took three years until we finally decided, well, I guess it's big enough now where I need an assistant and a real office now. So it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (07:18):

But isn't that what you find? I mean your version of it was doing it all yourself for three years. A band's version is being in the van for a few years. A producer's version is maybe starting in a bedroom or in their mom's basement for a few years. We all kind of have to do it in some way. We all kind of have to go through that stage in order to get to the next level. And I think that the one thing that I've noticed among people who I know who have stuck it out and who have done something really, really great with their lives or something really cool is that in those first few years, what drove them was love for what they were doing.

Speaker 3 (08:01):

Yeah, totally. And you have to really, really love what you're doing. Yeah, same thing. Bands go their first tour, they're going to go out there in a van or a car, sleep on people's floors, but they don't care because doing what they love to do. And I'm not so sure that that mentality is still around today. I think that's a bit of an issue with why you don't see a lot more bands getting bigger as time goes on because it's really a lot of people in this day and age, everything's instant gratification and having thing happen so fast. It's like you still have to pay your dues, but when we were all paying our dues, we didn't really think we were paying dues. We're just like, we love what we're doing and we really don't care what the situation is. We all pretty much came from nothing anyway, so it wasn't such a big deal to have that struggle.

Speaker 2 (08:44):

So you touched on something interesting, which is that you're finding it hard to find bands that will pay their dues. What do you think paying your dues means for a band in this day and age? Is it the same as it was like say when my band was trying to get signed in 2005? Or do you think that it's a different thing now?

Speaker 3 (09:05):

I think the problem is we will come across a really good band and we'll put out a record and there'll be some sort of buzz on it, and then they might go out on a tour and realize it's difficult. It's not easy. I think a lot of bands now kind of think, well, all I have to do is perform a band, put out a record, and all of a sudden everything's going to be great. And it's not that way. It takes a long, long period of time. Or you develop a band for a couple of records and they go on a couple of tours and they kind get to the point where they're just ready to make that next step. And well, I don't know. My girlfriend wants me to stay home more. My mom says I should go get a real job or all these excuses or really, touring is really hard.

(09:47):

I never saw any of this back in the early eighties and we just didn't care. We'll do it no matter what. That was our singular motive and we were so in love with it. And a lot of times these days you see that, I mean really in the last 10 years we've seen maybe one band break through and that's ghost and nobody else has really done it. A lot of bands have kind of gotten to that point and they haven't really done it or they've gone the radio route, which is a whole separate thing. But yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (10:16):

What do you think sets Ghost apart?

Speaker 3 (10:18):

Well, I mean they're doing something really different musically. It's very much har to the old school Boiser Cult that's sort of late seventies, early eighties vibe. And then they've also got this amazing imagery and stage show. And again, they love what they're doing. The main guy who's been doing this from day one is this is his passion and he's got stuff going outside of the music, but this is his passion. He'll do whatever he needs to do to make it successful. And again, you don't see that as much now as I would like to see it, I guess.

Speaker 2 (10:52):

So I guess when you do finally come across it, it must be like holy shit breath of fresh air,

Speaker 3 (10:58):

But you still never know how these things are going to turn out. But it's super happy that they're at the level they're at now, and they're definitely one of these bands that look like in the next couple of years will really break through hopefully.

Speaker 2 (11:11):

Well, speaking of not knowing how things will turn out, there's another theme that I found in your book, which I find has a lot in common with other autobiographies and biographies I've read, which is the way that you handled either rejection or losing partnerships seems like you handled them in very, very positive ways. And one thing that I've noticed is people who do great things know how to take rejection. They learn how to take it or they learn how to take splitting off from a former partner and how to spin it into something good or not get crushed by it. And you talk in the book about how eventually some of your bands left you and went to major labels, which I'm sure was not an easy thing to deal with, but you're still friends with these guys 30 years later and it's still a very positive thing and you still went on to do more and more great things with the label, whereas I know people who they get fired from a band and they never recover or they get fired off a record as a producer and they just can't take it, and that's it marks them forever.

(12:33):

But you talked a lot about losing these bands that you helped build a career for and then you just kept on going and even stayed cool with them. Can you talk about that a little? Was that easy for you? Did you just do it naturally or was that a skill you had to develop?

Speaker 3 (12:52):

I would definitely say it was a skill I had to develop. Look, I made a million mistakes starting out on this thing. I was a young kid, I had no background in business or anything. So you make a lot of mistakes, but also bands leaving. I mean, look, metal Blade was a tiny little label in the eighties and it was fun for me to see bands go on and be successful. Harvard Saint was the first band that we signed and did an EP with and they got signed to Chrysalis. I was happy for them. This is great. I mean, I can't compete with Chrysalis, so we didn't mind losing most of those bands, especially the ones that went on and had some success. It's kind of a bummer when they leave and it's not as successful and they end up coming back. But I never looked at it like somebody stealing the band or anything.

(13:33):

It's like, look, I want them to be successful. So if that means that they have to go onto a major label, because at that point the major labels could offer them way more than I could offer, it may complete sense. And I was just happy that the scene was getting better. And again, ultimately my bottom line is I'm in this because I love the music and if I can help bands get to that next level, however that is, then that makes me happy. And certainly there's situations over the years where you lose a band or something happens where you're certainly at the time not very happy about it, but at some point these things happen and you have to move on from it. If you just dwell on all that sort of stuff, you're just going to dwell on negativity and it doesn't make any sense, especially as long, if the bands go on to have some success or go to a situation where you think they can have success, then that's ultimately my bottom line.

Speaker 2 (14:27):

It's interesting, the CEO of a company that I've done a lot of work with called Creative Live. It's an online education company and the CEO is a very, very inspiring type of dude. And one of his lines that I stole is Don't Hate Congratulate, which is kind of similar to what you're saying here, which is it doesn't matter that they left as long as they were going on to do something that grew their careers and grew the scene.

Speaker 3 (14:59):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that again, that's especially starting out with all of these bands and people in the beginning, we all just were fans and we were happy when somebody had success because it means success for all of us. And I think it's still the case today. If a metal band, however they become hugely successful, that's great for all of us. That means that all of us are going to benefit from that. So I'm always happy, even bands that aren't on our label are successful. I'm friends with a lot of bands that we never even worked with, but I'm huge fans of theirs and they're nice guys. And so a band like Cody and Camia, for example, I've been friends with them forever. I love them as a band. We've never worked with them at all, but it's great that they've had the success that they've had or the Mighty, mighty Bosstones or there's a lot of those bands where I'm just a big fan of theirs and I became friends with them and happy they had success or Gaira or Masu or whoever it ended up may being. And I'm just happy as a fan that all these bands have more success. I mean, look, my favorite band in the world's Iron Maiden, I don't work with them, but I'm happy for their success. It's the way it should be. It's all for the betterment of the overall music.

Speaker 2 (16:06):

Absolutely. And I guess at the time when it is happening and it does feel uncomfortable, do you have any tips for people who may have just gotten kicked out of a band or lost a client or whatever to just keep going and keep trucking along and not get too wrapped up in it?

Speaker 3 (16:25):

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple things. I'm going to number one, look at the bigger picture of what are your goals? If your goals, if you're a band member and your goals are being a successful band, then continue to go and find that, but also realize what happened in that situation. Why am I not working with that band? Why did I get kicked out of that band and learn from that? Because clearly if there's that situation, it means that either somebody had a much better, was going to give somebody a much better deal than before, which if that's the case, then that's fine and just work up towards that. Just for example, we lost all those bands in the eighties and at some point we realized, okay, as much as we are happy, these bands are having success, kind of sick of losing 'em, and we feel that we could provide them a good place to be if we had major distribution.

(17:11):

So that's when we partnered with Warner Brothers and then a little bit later as it is now partnered with Sony, so we can kind of give a band The best of both worlds are really independent, familiar family style label that you can be on and also have the benefits of having the major distribution. So we kind of learn from why were the bands leaving? They were leaving, we were a smaller label without major distribution. Well, how do you get to that? So I think it's just all about the end goal and the bigger picture. If you look at that and keep the goal in your mind and any path to any goal, I guess you can equate it to climbing a mountain. If you're going to climb a mountain, it's not going to be easy, and there's going to be missteps and there's going to be things that are going to happen, but you just keep looking at the top going, well, that's where I need to be. How do I get there? And if you keep at it, you'll eventually get there.

Speaker 2 (18:00):

That actually segues perfectly to the third theme I found in your book, which was pivoting. And what I mean by that is with your mounted analogy, probably if you chart a course from the bottom to the top, even if you chart a course that's a straight line, you're going to have to deviate multiple times on your way to that peak. And you successfully did that multiple times. For instance, starting Death Records, which I didn't even know about until I didn't even realize what that was until I read the book, but that was your imprint for bands that didn't want metal associated with their name, which is really, really smart, or starting the promotional wing of metal blade to help bands that weren't assigned to you guys, but still allowed you guys to work with them. Those are excellent pivots to keep you in the game and keep you doing the things you want to do without, maybe it's not exactly the 100% goal as you originally saw it, but it kept you moving forward. It kept the momentum and kept things evolving. Could you talk a little bit about that? Is that something that you set out to do? Was it a natural thing for you to pivot that intelligently?

Speaker 3 (19:29):

It definitely wasn't. We didn't really set out to do that, but you're presented with situations and you go, okay, well, how can we make this situation work? And that's kind of a bigger thing just in business, you're going to always have situations and it's like, okay, well how can we make this work? For example, back when I saw DI Open for Slayer, this really amazing punk band, I love them. They were great guys. I wanted to work with them. We just would love to work with you, but we can't be on a metal label because in 19 84, 85 punk band, if they were on a metal label, everybody would say, what is this? This is ridiculous. We couldn't do that. So I said, well, how about if we did a subsidiary label that didn't have metal in there and we wouldn't have the metal blade logo on it at all?

(20:11):

Could we do it that way? And they said, sure. So that's when we started Death Records and we signed D-R-I-C-O-C, Dr, no, the Mentors, cryptic Slaughter, a whole bunch of really cool bands that were all these punk bands that we would never be able to work with except for the fact we had this subsidiary label and once we signed DRI, that was the first domino. It kind of fell because other bands would go like, oh, wow, DRI signed with them. Well, okay, cool. Then COC goes, sure, that's cool that you have DRI because they're friends and I first found out about DRI through Slayer because they loved them and they actually had them open a couple shows in la, which I was like, are you sure you want a punk band open? Yes, we want them. I'm like, all right. And it worked. The metal kids loved it.

(20:53):

It wasn't what I thought it might be. So there's a situation where we wanted to work with some bands and we couldn't do it the way we wanted to do it, so we kind of created a scenario where it would work. And same thing was going on in the whole grunge movement in the nineties where, I mean, I love that movement. I think that it needed to come in and kick whatever. I mean, metal was kind of a joke at that point. It was hair bands, and so many people were involved in this scene at that point that knew nothing about the music, and half of the bands didn't even plan their records anymore, and it was a joke of itself, so it needed to go back underground, and the grunge thing kind of wiped that off the planet. But from my perspective, it's like all those bands, Alison Chains, faith No More Sound Garden, these bands were all metal bands.

(21:40):

They just looked differently and they had a different vibe about them, but it still was heavy guitar based stuff, and I loved all those bands, and we tried to sign by the Love Bone really early on, which was the big first big band out of Seattle. Two of the guys Stone and Jeff ended up forming Pearl Jam with, and they were really amazing with this phenomenal elite singer who unfortunately overdosed on heroin, and that kind of obviously derailed them. But we started working with that band. We tried to sign them to, we were working with Capital Records at the time, and they didn't really work out, but when they put out their first EP and then their first album, because we had such a good relationship with them, we said, let us help you with this because we can go to college radio, we can go to these underground magazines and get you pressed and get you played on all these and that'll help you.

(22:26):

So against once we did that, then when these other records started coming out, people said, oh, you guys work with Mother Love Bone? That's cool. I said, yeah, we can do the same thing for you. And in the fifth No Morris situation, we were at Warner Brothers, and when we did that deal, a couple components of that deal was one, we could raid their catalog, which we did, and two was we will act as your underground marketing arm. And one of the first records that came out that we wanted to work on was The Real Thing by Faith No More. We just came out on slash and nobody really knew much about it, but I thought the record was amazing. I said, let us work it, and we did all the marketing promotion for the first six months on that record before it really started to take off. So it was just, again, we wanted to work with these bands, certainly couldn't sign them to our label or they're already signed, but here's an avenue that we can work with them and help them and still be involved in what we love.

Speaker 2 (23:18):

I think that everybody listening should internalize that and see how they can apply that to their own production careers. The majority of the listeners of this podcaster, aspiring producers and some pros as well. But I think that in this day and age, you really need to think about how you can still stay in the game with what you do, even if it's not the a hundred percent original stated goal, because you get to do cool things, and I didn't know that you had anything to do with The Real Thing until I read the book, and that was one of my formative records, so thank you.

Speaker 3 (24:03):

Amazing, amazing record.

Speaker 2 (24:05):

Yeah, yeah, for real. That's one of the records that definitely changed my life because I wasn't allowed to listen to Heavy Music when I was a kid, and that song made it through onto Normal People Radio Epic. It was my first taste of something heavier. I was just instantly drawn to it and wanted it to come back on the radio. I taped it off the radio. That was my introduction to Heavy Music. That song basically started this weird path. Thank you for that.

Speaker 3 (24:53):

No worries, man. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (24:54):

I have a few questions from our listeners for you. This one is from Luis James Flores and he's wondering, hi, Brian is an aspiring producer. I know that it's very important to have a good relationship with record labels. What would you say are the best things a producer can do to keep the labels happy?

Speaker 3 (25:12):

Well, I mean the obvious things like when you're making a record come in on budget and those sort of things are very helpful, but I think if you're a fan of the music, that's really, I mean, at least for us, I mean, look, it's the same way for all the metal labels. We're all fans of the music, and we love working with producers that are fans of the music as well. So I think really, if you're a fan, just let's meet you as a person. Let's talk about music. Let's hang out because it's a people business ultimately. We like working with people. We so feel free to make contacts, talk to the label people about music, bands you like, stuff you like, and then there's a personal thing there, and then it's like, oh, by the way, I also do production work. And it's like, oh, cool, awesome. I know that guy. He's really cool. That happens a lot. A couple of guys who I've become really close friends with a guy like Jay Rustin or that could go on with a bunch of people, but we love working with people like that. We know them, the staff is comfortable with them. They do really great work, and it's kind of a perfect relationship.

Speaker 2 (26:15):

Jay is an incredible producer mixer, by the way. That guy is just top of the line and a great dude too.

Speaker 3 (26:22):

Yeah, he's on fire.

Speaker 2 (26:24):

Yeah, for real. I have a similar question here from Eric Burt is saying, from a production standpoint, what makes a record stand out for you? Are there certain sonic characteristics that a producer can pay attention to when mixing a band who plans to shop themselves to Metal Blade, for instance?

Speaker 3 (26:44):

Well, I think a couple things. I think the first and foremost, you have to have the band sound like the band so that when you listen to it, you feel like, okay, I'm hearing what the band sounds like. I think it's really difficult now because there's so many bells and whistles and you can make things sound really cool and slick and nice, and I kind of miss, especially on demo stuff, sometimes miss hearing the band itself, because when I hear it sometimes you're like, it's really good. It sounds good, but it's almost too polished, it's too perfect. It just doesn't feel like this is really what the band's essence is. And then you hear something else, it's a little more, I mean, raw might be the bad example, but it's just a little less produced, a little more raw. It's like, okay, this sounds like a real band and that makes me really happy.

(27:29):

And it's the same thing with really making a record. I think the constant struggle with making a record from day one until now is, especially if you have a band that's a really great live band, is how do we get that energy and sound of the band live in the studio? So when people listen to the record, they feel that, and that's the trickiest thing as a producer and engineer is getting those sounds on tape and getting those performances on tape that sound really good and sound like the band. So when you go see 'em live, it's like, oh man, this sounds a lot like the record. This is cool,

Speaker 2 (28:02):

That raw vibe. That's actually what I really like about the Goat Horror Records, for instance, is that they don't sound overproduced. They don't sound like slick computerized creations. They just sound like a nasty band, a badass.

Speaker 3 (28:19):

Yeah, it sounds like them. Sammy's got a really interesting guitar tone and you hear it as soon as you put it on. It's like, oh, it sounds like Goor. And that's ultimately, I think a bigger, broader picture and problem these days is so many bands just sound the same. I was hanging out with, spent a couple nights with the Slayer guys and went to dinner with Carrie the night before one of the shows and we're kind of talking as we often do, like wear are all these new bands. He'll get into a couple bands and something won't happen. And he said the same thing. It's like everything just sounds so much the same. You put on a record and you're not sure who it is. It's so rare that if you put on Panera, you know who it's you put on Metallica and who it's put on sl, you know who it's, those bands have their own sounds, and I think it's becoming more difficult for bands to cultivate their own sound, but that's a really tough thing to do, and that's another big quandary we have, again, with production and engineering where it's so easy to make everything sound really good, which we want it to sound good, but it also has to have some uniqueness to it too.

Speaker 2 (29:19):

There are some bands, I think you hear Miss Sugar, you know who they are, you hear Go Jera, you know who they are, ETH

(29:28):

Ghosts, you know those bands. So they are out there, but I know exactly what you're saying and I think that it's because also in part because of the home recording revolution where it's so easy to record yourself or to become recorded, and I realized that my company has helped to spread this, and I do think that part of the reason that you're hearing things sound the same is because the barrier to entry for recording is lower than ever. And so you're not, lots of the bands aren't getting to producers that will take the time to give them their own sound to explore that lots of dudes are recording themselves or going to guys that aren't that skilled. And I think that that's part of the problem. I don't think that's going away though. I don't think that there's going to suddenly be less people recording themselves, kind of like with downloading or I know that we're moving to streaming, but I don't think that the trend is going to suddenly reverse itself and CDs are going to come back or something. I think people are going to need to learn how to make it work for them.

Speaker 3 (30:56):

I agree.

Speaker 2 (30:57):

It's tough though. Here's a question from Maximilian Scheffler, which is what do you think are the benefits of being signed to a record label as opposed to releasing stuff on your own in this day and age?

Speaker 3 (31:10):

Well, really what we've become as record labels is the traditional record label is obviously not the same way. It used to be we'd sign a band and you'd provide them with everything and do all this different work, and it's a lot different now because a band could conceivably record something and put it out there on their own. So what we've kind of morphed into and us and certainly all the other independent labels have done, is we really almost are like a service company where when you sign with a label, you get the traditional record deal and all that sort of stuff, but you get a massive team of people. They're going to help promote your record, and we've taken a lot of time to really cultivate our social media and a lot of these things to really help benefit the band. And we have more Twitter followers, Facebook likes, Instagram, all this sort of stuff than a lot of the other labels.

(31:58):

We've been doing this for a long time. We have a whole team of people that do this as now do all the other labels. So when you sign on to a label, you're getting however many 25, 30 people that work for the label are going to be involved in helping your band get to the next level. And then you accentuate that out to the distributors and all the other partners we work with, and you have a team of a couple hundred people, they're going to help push your brand up as big as it can be. And I mean it sounds kind of corporate, but what we do now is we're brand builders and we feel that the bigger the brand of the band is, the more concert tickets, t-shirts, whatever, you're going to music everything. You're going to make more of it because you have this massive team of people, and I've talked to bands that have done crowdfunding campaigns and stuff, and I said, how do you like it?

(32:45):

It's like, well, it was great and we made great money, but now all of a sudden I'm manufacturing albums, I'm putting them in mailers, I'm mailing them out. I'm having to call radio people. I'm having to hire all these other people to do marketing promotion For me. It's a lot of work. And I go, well, yeah, would you do it again? I don't think so because it's not easy to do, especially if you get up to a certain level. You even look at Prince and famously these other people try to do it on their own Radiohead and they eventually go, we need to go back to the label. They're just so many other services that are provided by that, that you really have to have that team behind you if you're going to have any success.

Speaker 2 (33:20):

Well, it's like if you get big enough or you are big enough to where you're doing it all yourself basically. It's not like the guys in the band if you're big enough can actually do it all themselves. So they'll have to outsource and hire a bunch of independent contractors to do all the stuff a label would do. Then at that point, why not just be on a label?

Speaker 3 (33:44):

Yeah, metallic is doing it that way. Now where they have their own label, but they have a massive team of people that they hired and support and their management company does. It takes because they're so huge, they can kind of do it and make it work, but it's really difficult. Or you're just partnering with a label and saying, okay, well we need all these services, so just do all these services and we'll pay you for it. So it's either way, but you can only do that at a really super high level. I think. Otherwise my feeling is you're a band, you need to concentrate on your music and your live show and doing all the things you need to do. You don't need to be talking to all these other various people down the road and really this day and age, you need a team of people working together to get you to be successful. I look at it like a car. If you have four wheels on a car all moving in the same direction, that car's going to go fast. So if you can find a label, a management company, an agent, a lawyer in a band, all on the same page, all with the same goals, that car is going to move really fast. If you have any one of those elements not there, then it's like having a flat tire. You're not going to go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (34:49):

I remember, and this is kind of funny, when my band was no longer on Roadrunner, we were searching for a label back in 2009, and I went to the metal blade office and I sat down in Leigh's office, and that's exactly why he told me you guys wouldn't sign us. He was like, we like the band and obviously we can provide the tire with the label tire, but we got no good management and no good agent, your car won't run. You need all four tires.

Speaker 3 (35:21):

At least he was honest. Oh yeah, I

Speaker 2 (35:23):

Totally appreciated that. Dude. It has never bothered me ever. When someone gives it to me straight, I always appreciate that, always have. I mean, same kind of like what we were talking about earlier. If one thing's not going to work out, it's good to analyze why in a very, I don't want to say cold, but in an emotionless way, realize why you're in the situation you're in, and then do something to fix it or figure something else out. And I really did appreciate him taking the time to tell me that he didn't have to do that. He could have given me a California no, for anyone not listening, I mean for anyone who doesn't know what the California no is, that's when someone says, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool, and then just never gets back to you. There

Speaker 3 (36:16):

You go.

Speaker 2 (36:17):

Yeah. He didn't have to take the time to say, look, your band's cool, but you got no future because of this and this, and so we're not going to sign you. That was great actually. That helped solidify that I was going to move to Florida and do the production thing for a few years, which was the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing now, which is the best thing that could have ever happened to me. So I always appreciated him rejecting me to my face and giving me that analogy, which I think is one of the best analogies I've ever heard for a band being successful or not, because I can't tell you how many times I've seen bands come through the studio or whatever, who they've got really cool music or a label cares about them, but their managers a shithead or their agent's a shithead and it just doesn't work. Or they've got a cool manager and the band is cool, but it's a shitty label and nothing happens. So you're absolutely right. They all have to be in alignment, in harmony in order for the vehicle to run.

Speaker 3 (37:26):

Yep.

Speaker 2 (37:28):

Here's one from Jeff Gaston, which is curious as to where the Google Dolls signing in the early punk rock years into their beginnings as college alternative rock band fit into the Metal Blade brand. I don't remember any other punk rock bands in your catalog. Also, how did the legal battle between Metal Blade and the Google Dolls affect future contracts between your label and artists?

Speaker 3 (37:51):

Well, yeah. Well, obviously we did. We had Google Dolls were another band that was on Death records as well. So we had D-R-I-C-O-C and all the bands I mentioned before, and the Google dolls were, so Mike F who mentioned earlier has a connection and he grew up in Buffalo. He has a really good connection there that brought us both Cannibal Corps and the Go Good Dolls. He brought the Go Good Dolls to one of our a and r guys, William Howell, the first record they put out, and William thought it was really cool. He came to me and said, Hey, I really like to band from Buffalo. They got a cool vibe. What do you think? And I listened to the record. I said, this is really cool. It was kind of a cool punk rock vibe, a little melodic, but they were just really fun and we saw them live and they were incredibly fun and amazing lives.

(38:31):

So we ended up signing them just because we thought, this is a really cool band, like what they're doing, it's super punk rock. And back then when they first started, it was no ballads, all punk rock. Robbie, the bass player sang half the songs. Johnny sang the Other Half, and there's this really just cool, fun punk rock band that we really liked. And then as time went on, they got bigger and bigger and we always felt that they were going to be really big. The vibe was just there and it was eventually going to happen. Then when we partnered with Warner Brothers, we were both working to really make this thing happen, and on the big breakout record, a boy named Go, it's kind of funny, I talk about this in the book as well, where Johnny had this song name that he had just written.

(39:14):

It's an acoustic song, and he kind of wrote it just at the very last minute, and they recorded when they're making the record and he said, Hey, listen to this. I'm not sure if I should put this on the record or not. What do you think? And I go, oh, I mean, it's a good song. Why not put it on the record? It's a great song, can't Hurt. So we put that on the record and then one day, Kevin Weatherly, who was the program director of Kroc in la, which at the time was the radio station in la, he just out of the blue one night decided he was going to play name on the radio station to see what the reaction was. He played it and it went through the roof and the bat exploded from there and then kind of went into their, I guess adult rock or whatever you want to call where they're at now.

(39:51):

So they kind of took a little bit of a turn, but if you go back to those early records we did, it's really just a cool punk rock, cool fun punk rock band that went in that direction. And anything happens when a band gets super successful, everything has to change, and that's kind of the road that happened with the Google Dolls where they got super successful, so they wanted to renegotiate all the contracts, which absolutely happens, and all that stuff got sorted out and everybody's happy in the end and didn't really change our agreements or anything. We didn't change the agreement because the agreement was not a good agreement. It's just, well, what's a band gets to that point? Things change. We do that all the time and we continue to do that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (40:33):

It's interesting that you say that. One thing that I think a lot of baby bands don't understand is that if you become successful, your initial deal will probably get renegotiated, and lots of times you do have to accept a deal that wouldn't be as good as a deal that say a huge band will get, because label is assuming a majority of the risk in the situation. There's no way to know what's going to happen with your band and label has to invest a ton of money to help get you off the ground.

Speaker 3 (41:11):

Well, it's just like if you're starting a job and you're a young kid and you have no experience and you go into a job, you're going to start at an entry level salary doing an entry level st. And then as you get successful over the years, you go up, you make more, you make more and more and more. Same thing with bands too, is you get on the entry level contract that most bands get when they first start out, and then as it gets bigger and bigger, you renegotiate it and you get more money and better deal points. That's just the way it's always been. Like I said, it's no different than working a job and moving up the ladder that way.

Speaker 2 (41:43):

Yeah, man. I don't know if this annoys you, but annoys me when I hear people telling small bands to not take deals from reputable labels for reasons like that and advise them to go for major band type of deal points. I don't know if you've encountered this, but I've definitely seen it on my end at the studio with bands that are in the process of getting signed or just reading articles online from people advising bands or have you ever seen that? Have you guys lost any bands who you were trying to sign who just wanted way too much for their level?

Speaker 3 (42:34):

Yeah, all the time. I mean, not as much now as we probably used to see it back, certainly the eighties, and we've seen that before. And the problem with that is that nine times out of 10, those bands don't ever become successful because you've already set the bar so high that if your first record comes down, it doesn't do really well, which a lot of times, first records don't, especially this day and age, all of a sudden you owe the label a lot of money and the manager's not making any money and nobody's really making any money. So you don't really have a chance. You might not even have a chance to make a second record. And if you do, it's probably going to be significantly less than what you did on the first one, and you're already setting yourself up to be in a bad position where just a lot easier to go in.

(43:13):

And again, if you've got the right team behind you, everybody wants this to be successful and everybody wants the bands to make money and have fair deals down the road, but you have to do your due diligence with the labels, whatever label you're talking to, look what a band say about the label. Do bands have been on it before? Have they ever had issues? That sort of thing, and then going in where things are at. But all of us metal labels we're the same thing. If you are going to sign to a deal, you start to sell records, it's going to be a lot better. And then you're in the control position. I tell all the bands all the time, we work for you. You don't work for us, you don't work for your managers, you don't work for the lawyers, lawyers, managers, merchandising companies, labels. We work for you. So you're in a better position if you start selling records to be able to work out a better deal for the labels because all of us want the bands to be happy. The last thing you want to have is an unhappy band, the label, it's not good for anybody. So we want it to be happy. Like I said, just like if you were working at a company and you start doing well, you should be compensated and the employer wants to compensate you doing a good job.

Speaker 2 (44:19):

It's interesting, the whole thing about the industry working for the bands, and I know that's true, but I can tell you that at the time when I first had my first manager and first deal, people would say that to me, but I was too afraid to put that to use that card. I didn't even know how we could use that card because I didn't know anything about how things worked. So that's a tough card for a new band to really understand if their manager says, you should do this, or label says you should do that, it's hard to be like, actually no, you work for me. And I say no or something.

Speaker 3 (45:09):

It's tough. I would totally say though, that we've had situations with bands where either the manager or us will say like, Hey, what do you guys think about doing this? And they'll come back and say, no, that's not really us. And it's like, all right, well, I mean, it's ultimately their decision. So we do see that sometimes. And a lot of the bands that really have a conviction about what they want to do, we will tell you that. I mean, it doesn't have to be like you work for me sort of thing, but I think a lot of bands feel that they are working for everybody else when it's really like, we're working for you. We want to make you happy, so we want you to be successful and do what you want to do. And sometimes it is also just obviously being a band is one thing, and it is a music business, so you do have to have business. And I always tell bands, just get at least one guy in the band to read some business books or law books or something just so you have some sort of knowledge. Unfortunately, if you got to leave it in everybody else's hands, that's a recipe for disaster if there ever was one.

Speaker 2 (46:09):

The perfect example in my opinion of someone who really has their shit together business wise is a Brian from Black Dahlia, one of the most professional and business-minded dudes I've met so far that's in a band,

Speaker 3 (46:31):

And that's ultimately why they're successful. You've got a guy in the band that's controlling, I mean Metallica with Lars, the Rolling Stones with Mick Jagger. I mean every major band, there's one guy in the band that's running the business show, and that's how it eventually all works because ultimately it's all about your band itself.

Speaker 2 (46:52):

Can you think of a single band, and I don't mean that you need to name 'em or whatever, but can you think of a band that you've worked with where there isn't the one guy like a successful band? Can you think of one that doesn't have the one guy in it who has the business vision and skills?

Speaker 3 (47:09):

Nope, not a

Speaker 2 (47:10):

One. Yeah, I'm trying to think if I've known any bands where there isn't one guy or even two who have that on lock and I can't think of any.

Speaker 3 (47:21):

Yeah, I can't think of any either. I mean, successful bands, I don't really know that you can be a successful band without having one or two guys, and you don't want too many of them. I've seen that happen where you get two or three guys in a band that all want control of the business thing, and that ends up kind of being a disaster. Then there's eventually becomes a power struggle and somebody gets kicked out of the band.

Speaker 2 (47:45):

Well, yeah, you definitely don't want the other extreme as well.

Speaker 3 (47:49):

Yeah, so it's a careful balance there.

Speaker 2 (47:54):

Yeah, I think Brian has done it perfectly over the years. When I recorded the drums on one of their records and I went to his house for the week in Detroit, I was blown away by just how tight that operation is. And I would always mention them as an example to tiny bands that would come to the studio and who wanted to do big things, and we're talking about getting buses, and I was like, are you sure you want a bus? If you look at a band like Black Dahlia who could be in a bus, most of the time they ride in vans because they want to own homes, so you need to choose, do you want a bus or do you want to own a home? And I was just to this day blown away by how he makes that work. It's a testament to what you're saying, I think. Yep, absolutely agree a hundred percent. So last question, this one's from Casey Cauley and he is asking, when wanting to eventually work in the music industry, approximately, how do you think I should divide my time working on say, charisma, networking versus real skills? I find I have to put in a lot of work to be social.

Speaker 3 (49:12):

Yeah, I mean, like I mentioned before, it is a people business, so there is those relationships out there. I mean, I don't know. It's hard to quantify what percentage you should work on in any of these things. I think the bottom line I tell anybody that wants to get into the music industry, whether it's in a band or in any of their categories, the number one most important thing, you have to really love the music. If you really, really love the music and that's your goal for being in the industry, then you're going to be successful. So that's the number one most important thing. And then all these other skills will come in. I mean, clearly if your goal is to be your recording engineer, producer, the core of that is you do need to have the skills to be able to work all the equipment and stuff.

(49:58):

But once you have that done, then the networking thing is very, very important. It is a people business, and we like to work with people we like, and you could be the best recording engine in the world, but if you're operating in a vacuum where nobody knows that you exist, then that's going to be very difficult. So there is a bit of give and take there. I mean, I spend an exorbitant amount of my time hanging out with the bands and going to functions and meeting people because just the other night I was at Slayer in LA and I was hanging out at the Forum club in between bands, talking to a bunch of people. I was talking to this one guy, and we came up with this really interesting idea about doing some really cool stuff that he's kind of been wanting to do.

(50:40):

And I said, I'm completely on board. And just out of that five minute long conversation at a show, something really cool, very well may happen out of that. So there is a lot of that stuff. I find it you tend to do a lot more business that way than just emailing or social mediaing or any of that stuff, which all is important of course. But ultimately being, even in this day and age where it's all digital and social, it's really easy not to have that human touch. Nobody talks on the phone anymore, which is fine. I kind of text me. I'd rather text them talk on the phone anyway. Yeah, totally. But seeing somebody face to face, sometimes you come up with interesting ideas. So that element is pretty important as well.

Speaker 2 (51:24):

Well, I think it also needs to be said that metal kind of being a counterculture has typically appealed to kids that don't have the best social skills and aren't necessarily the popular kids in school or whatever. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. That's kind of almost accepted that you just have to make a little bit of effort, but there's a lot of leeway Granted, I've noticed for people who aren't necessarily your traditional life of the party, I met lots of guys that are socially awkward who do great in the scene.

Speaker 3 (52:02):

Oh, totally. But we're all the same way. I mean, I was not Mr. Popular in high school or anything. I hated high school. I never went. But when you get into this world, it's a huge metal family, and we're all a little off. We're all those kind of people so welcomed. It's like, wow, these people are all like me. So I tell that to people, like you said, that are a little shy or socially awkward or whatever. I mean, we're all that way. So it's not like you're walking into a room where people have expectations. It's kind of like we know how that is. We've, we've all been there, so we're all kind of on the same level when it comes to that.

Speaker 2 (52:39):

Yeah. So just don't be a shithead and be good at what you do basically.

Speaker 3 (52:43):

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (52:45):

If you want to break it down, just don't be a shithead.

Speaker 3 (52:48):

There you go.

Speaker 2 (52:49):

Well, Brian, thank you so much for coming on, taking the time to talk to me. Once again, I really enjoyed the book. It's for the sake of heaviness. Anyone who I think just wants to get a good history of the scene that we're a part of, and also get some good insights on what it takes to build something great and actually stick it out through the years. It's a great book for that, and it's an easy read. I listen to books now. I don't read that often, but I read this in one night, and that to me is perfect length. So yeah, I highly recommend it.

Speaker 3 (53:29):

Yeah, thanks for that. I tried to, a couple people have said, how come you didn't make the book any longer? I go, look, it's a book about a record label. That's

Speaker 2 (53:36):

Perfect.

Speaker 3 (53:36):

It's not the most exciting thing. So I wanted people to be able to read it in a sitting or a flight or whatever. So thanks for that. I appreciate that. That was one of the reasons why I wanted to make it an easy read, which is cool.

Speaker 2 (53:47):

Dude, an easy read is everything these days, because for real, I do consume lots of books, but most of them are audio because I'm either driving from driving eight hours or flying somewhere or whatever, and reading just, I can't read while I drive

Speaker 3 (54:06):

Or

Speaker 2 (54:06):

Whatever.

Speaker 3 (54:07):

Of course.

Speaker 2 (54:08):

And I don't like to do it on flights. I just like to sit back and listen to stuff. So things have to be an easy read for me to actually get through them.

Speaker 3 (54:19):

Cool.

Speaker 2 (54:19):

Well,

Speaker 3 (54:20):

There will be an audio, oh, sorry. There will be an audio book, but it doesn't come out until sometime next year. I guess. That's the way these things go. That's what the publishers telling me.

Speaker 2 (54:28):

Oh, okay. Well get that as well. Cool. So thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 (54:32):

Thank you so much. The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is brought to you by Line six. Line six is a musical instruments manufacturing company that specializes in Guitar, amp, and affects modeling and makes guitars, amps, effects, pedals and multi effects. We introduced the world's first digital modeling amp, and we're behind the groundbreaking pod multi effect, which revolutionized the industry with an easy way to record guitar with great tone. Line six will always take dramatic leaps so you can reach new heights with your music. Go to www.linesix.com to find out more about line six. To get in touch with the URM podcast, visit urm.com/podcast and subscribe today.