ERIK RON: From Bong Cleaner to Producer, a Secret Porn-Funded Studio, and Navigating Rock Royalty

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Bala Ga Guitars. Founded in 2014, Bala Ga guitar strives. To bring modern aesthetics and options to vintage inspired designs, go to bala ga guitars.com for more info. This episode of the podcast is also brought to you by Fishman inspired performance technology. Fishman is dedicated to helping musicians of all styles achieve the truest sound possible. Wherever and whenever they plug in. Go to fishman.com for more info. And now your host,

Speaker 2 (00:00:32):

Eyal Levi. Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. I am Eyal Levi, and with me is an engineer producer mixer that I think you should know about is Mr. Erik. Ron, thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (00:00:48):

I'm happy to be here. Hey guys. Erik Ron here on the Ones and Twos. I've always wanted to say that I don't entirely know what that means on the fives

Speaker 2 (00:00:58):

And the tens. It's like when they give you the traffic and the weather on the fives and the tens.

Speaker 3 (00:01:06):

Oh, yeah. Well, in LA that means you're not going anywhere because those are two freeways with heavy traffic. But I've got a keyboard in front of me with a one and a two, so that's what I literally mean.

Speaker 2 (00:01:17):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (00:01:18):

But I'm so to be here.

Speaker 2 (00:01:20):

Yeah. Now, and for those of you who don't know who he is, he's worked with bands like Atilla issues, like Moths of Flames, slaves, I Prevail List just goes on and on and on and on. Bless the fall. Micah Relocate. I could go on and on and on, but the list just keeps going and I'm not going to keep going.

Speaker 3 (00:01:45):

Basically, no

Speaker 2 (00:01:47):

One has time for that. You've worked with some bands, people I've worked with,

Speaker 3 (00:01:51):

Ive worked with a few.

Speaker 2 (00:01:51):

And I heard that you came up through NRG.

Speaker 3 (00:01:55):

I did. Actually. Probably no one over there remembers me except Jay, but that was,

Speaker 2 (00:02:01):

That's not true really, because Josh Newell, who I was hanging out with about a month ago when we were in LA for the Shuga Nail, the mix when you came to that dinner, that dinner, which had all the producer people there.

Speaker 3 (00:02:21):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:02:22):

He was like, Hey, that's Erik Ron. He used to be one of our interns.

Speaker 3 (00:02:25):

That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:02:26):

See, more than one person remembered.

Speaker 3 (00:02:29):

That's right. We've touched base about once every five years, and I'm hoping to remedy that and keep in touch with him. He's a wonderful human being.

Speaker 2 (00:02:37):

Oh yeah. The best.

Speaker 3 (00:02:38):

Yeah. And so my very first internship was at NRG, my Dream Studio. My end goal was be at NRG. And then within a month of starting my career, I interned there. I was like, this is it. I hit the big time. It's only up from here. And I painted a lot. And that was pretty much the extent of my internship is I was a professional free, I was a painter for coffin case when they owned that building down the street. So it wasn't quite as sexy as I hoped, but I got to do a couple things there that were really cool and memorable and heard some cool stories and walked in on a guy doing blow in the bathroom my first day. That was a new experience for me. I cleaned a bong. I was like 18 years old. My world was, I was ready for the big time. Where you from? I'm from San Francisco.

Speaker 2 (00:03:32):

Okay. So it's not like you came from Podunk?

Speaker 3 (00:03:35):

No, no. It wasn't too much of a culture change for me.

Speaker 2 (00:03:39):

Okay. It just happened to be that it was inside of NRG. It was an NRG bong.

Speaker 3 (00:03:44):

Yep. NRG bong. I mean, I didn't mess around with a lot of paraphernalia and to me it didn't sink in that studios are okay with drugs. It didn't quite hit me yet.

Speaker 2 (00:03:58):

Interesting. So did you get any work done there or was it mainly just doing the things that they needed you to do?

Speaker 3 (00:04:07):

If I'm being honest, I spent one day in the recording studio with this guy who was awesome. He's an engineer, his name is Dan Serta, and he was really nice to me and probably one of the more friendly engineers. And he came in and was like, Hey, come work on the session with me. And I think it was a downtime session or a friend thing. It wasn't anybody famous, but I pretended this was the highest thing that I could ever do, and I just tried to give it a hundred percent. And did it lead to anything? It certainly did not. Well, you still

Speaker 2 (00:04:42):

Got to give it a hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (00:04:44):

Absolutely. You never know.

Speaker 2 (00:04:45):

So what ever came of the NRG party then Internship party, what did that lead to? How long did you stay?

Speaker 3 (00:04:55):

Well, I was there for three months and I got the old, Hey, we could hire you, but there's six runners that have been here for three years and we're going to just get someone else that'll work for free. And I was like, well, okay, I get it. So my experience with it was really kind of seeing, it was really my first time around celebrities and that was kind of cool just walking by Avril Levine, just kind of learning how to pulled it all in. It was like, I wasn't starstruck, but it's like you got to get used to that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (00:05:30):

What did you want to say to her?

Speaker 3 (00:05:32):

Oh, I don't know. Marry me. Something along those lines. So beautiful. You're so beautiful. The things I wanted to say, I think would've kind of garnered a 500 foot radius C claws. So I think at that point I just walked past and smiled and giggled a little inside and moved on with my day and with meeting celebrities or bands I look up to, I've always taken the Barry Sanders approach, which is act like you've done it before and you're going to do it again. And so I've always taken That's good. Taken that vibe. And so no matter what, and it was kind of interesting because when I came up in the Bay Area music scene as a singer and as a band dude, there was a band that was just killing it. I'm going to take it back here. We're going back. We're going back to 2000. Go back. We're going back to 2003. And there

Speaker 2 (00:06:28):

I'm take a trip on the time machine,

Speaker 3 (00:06:29):

Right? It is. I can go further back if you want, but we can start it there. We'll take a pit stop

Speaker 2 (00:06:37):

At 2003.

Speaker 3 (00:06:38):

Perfect. So we're taking a short little time lapse here, and we've got 2003. We've got this band called Strata. Some of you might remember it, some of you won't. But they had a song on Madden and that was a big deal back in that time. And so they were friends of mine and they always liked my band and I loved theirs. And they were one of the first bands in that hard rock world to really get signed to wind up and start making it. And so when I was interning there, they actually were mixing with J Baumgartner. And so it was nice to have someone be like, Erik, oh my God. And it made me feel like, all right, I can be one of these people too. And so they guided me through. So they kind of gave me a little bit of like, Hey, this guy is cool. Fuck with him. So

Speaker 2 (00:07:32):

I think that it's really interesting. A lot of people will say that they meet somebody or they see somebody in real life and then they realize that dude can do it. I can do it too.

Speaker 3 (00:07:44):

Totally. And you realize how dumb we are and you're like, this is totally possible.

Speaker 2 (00:07:48):

Yeah. I mean, little inside secret about everybody at the top is that they're just figuring it out as much as anybody else. And the people at the top are idiots just like everybody else. They still don't know where the fuck their lives are going and

Speaker 3 (00:08:12):

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I always talk to people about is what's fascinating about this world in the music industry is that there really is no rule book. There's no school for it. It's a bunch of cowboys and Indians, and we're just gun slinging.

Speaker 2 (00:08:28):

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Speaker 3 (00:08:30):

And it's amazing that this kind of situation is here to, this didn't exist when I was coming up, when I was learning recording. I couldn't YouTube getting a cool guitar tone that didn't exist,

Speaker 2 (00:08:43):

Man. Well, the reason we do nail the mix and all that stuff is because we're trying to create something that didn't exist when we were trying to learn. Because when we were trying to learn, it was like the Arctic Tundra out there for information. It was rough stuff. So we're trying to give, and now there's a lot of bad information. So we're trying to be an oasis where if you want to learn how to do heavy music of all genres, we are the credible place for it. Like an oasis, an online oasis for learning how to do heavy stuff. And because it is like the Wild West, it does have 30 foot walls around it and turrets

Speaker 3 (00:09:28):

Turrets

Speaker 2 (00:09:28):

On the outside.

Speaker 3 (00:09:29):

It really is. And it's ups, it's got its downs, but really we're all uneducated and just trying to do the best we can always.

Speaker 2 (00:09:42):

Well, you never really know which way the ship is really going to sail. So you have to do your best to anticipate it, and you have to just do your best in all situations. You also don't know ever who is going to become something great.

Speaker 3 (00:10:01):

Yeah, absolutely. It's so much about timing. Luck in a little bit of skill.

Speaker 2 (00:10:07):

Yeah, for sure. So back in 2003, Jay Baumgartner, you saw him and were like, okay, I can do that.

Speaker 3 (00:10:16):

Absolutely. And he was always really nice, and he was very quiet, and I kind of expected the rockstar producer, which is kind of an ironic phrase now. It doesn't entirely exist, but I anticipated him being like this, I dunno, in my head, I anticipated P Diddy or something. I was like, this guy's going to be flashy, and he owns the rock world, and he was just quiet, went along his day, said hi to people, and moved on. And it was like, oh, you can be a real person and have an amazing studio with amazing accolades. And it was really cool to see that. You don't have to be,

Speaker 2 (00:10:58):

Do you remember that movie? Did you ever see The Doors by Oliver Stone?

Speaker 3 (00:11:02):

I didn't see that one.

Speaker 2 (00:11:03):

Oh, well there's a producer in there. He says Baby a lot to the musicians.

Speaker 3 (00:11:11):

Oh yeah. I actually say that a lot to my guys and girls.

Speaker 2 (00:11:16):

Awesome.

Speaker 3 (00:11:16):

So maybe I saw it in my sleep or in a past life, but that's awesome. It's like using the Tension baby. It's like all just lightening the mood and creating the vibe. I think I use Baby probably more than a lot of other producers. That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:11:34):

So fast forward a little, then what happens after 2003? Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:11:39):

Let's fast forward a little bit. So I got dumped from NRG, which I'll be forever salty about. Not too salty, but I'll always, it's still my dream to do a record at NRG and walk in and I know, and now it's attainable, but it'll always be, and my studio is actually a block away. I could probably throw something at it if I aim and if I put some muscle into it. But after that, I kind of licked my wounds a little bit and I moved back up to San Francisco and I went there for a girl, which as all of you know, is always the best choice. It is always,

Speaker 2 (00:12:21):

Definitely always, that always goes well,

Speaker 3 (00:12:23):

Always goes well. So I went up there and I interned at this studio in Mountain View California called Studio Haki. It doesn't exist now. I don't even think it existed then, but it was this Silicon Valley mogul that said, Hey, I want a studio. And so I saw it on Craigslist and I went in for a meeting and I was like, I'm your guy. No one else was trying to intern there. There's no music world over there. It was just me. And they're like, well, you're the only guy, so you're hired. I'm like, boom. So I went in and there were no clients. They just built a studio and went for the whole, if you build it, they will come mentality. And they didn't come because it was expensive as shit. I remember. And you can't have NRG prices in Mountain View California, but they had an amazing studio.

(00:13:14):

And so really I went every day. I had nothing else to do. I lived at home with my parents. I was 18, and I just started getting fast fasted Pro tools and you name it, I must've edited drums 500 times on the same song. I just practiced and I got better and better and quicker, and I wanted to be the fastest guy in the west. Since we're talking about cowboys and Indians, I just wanted to be quick and efficient. So it really, really helped me in that way. I feel like I was wasting time a little bit, but it was kind of like how Kobe just shoots for six hours a day. I edited drums six hours a day. That's what I did.

Speaker 2 (00:13:56):

That makes sense. I mean, look, it's a repetitive task, and what matters is how fast and accurate you are with it. If you're accurate and super fast, you will be employed.

Speaker 3 (00:14:09):

And I think the biggest thing I can say to anyone who's up and coming and wants to be into engineering is make sure that attention to detail is your number one thing. Because if you did it extremely fast, you're like, here we go, man. And I see mistakes. I see it right away. I'll let you have it. Because attention to detail is way more important to me than speed.

Speaker 2 (00:14:32):

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (00:14:32):

And you'd be surprised. And sometimes I'll get sessions where I just scratch my head and some of them are even from big guys, and I just going like, this can't be real. This can't be a thing. And it is. And so I've just tried to make sure that my stuff doesn't have that.

Speaker 2 (00:14:49):

It is always kind of shocking when you get a session from a big guy and it's like, wow, who the hell edited that?

Speaker 3 (00:14:58):

And I get it. There's a kind of thing where you don't really expect anyone to see it. And so it's like cleaning your room and you put a couple things under the rug and you miss a few spots and you're like, no one's ever going to look. And then someone comes in with a big light and shines it over and you see everything and you're like, oh man. So I understand that aspect of it, but I try to avoid it at all costs

Speaker 2 (00:15:24):

Nowadays. Do you edit your own drums?

Speaker 3 (00:15:26):

I do not.

Speaker 2 (00:15:28):

You must have someone pretty trustworthy working for you.

Speaker 3 (00:15:31):

Yes. I have a guy who's been with me for years and I taught them everything I know, and he's very detail oriented and quick, and his name is Adrian Alvarado for anyone that wants to check him out. And he's my right hand man. And I really tried to build a team of people that I can trust and that want to be here and get it done for me and really just help the process move quicker. Adrian, Adrian, hashtag hero. Adrian hashtag hero. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:16:03):

Yeah. Okay. So

(00:16:05):

Basic, I think that this is interesting, and I want to point this out to those of you who are listening who have heard about my history of when I would practice guitar 12 hours a day and not leave my apartment for three weeks at a time when I was trying to get good and how I have always told you guys to approach your dog like an instrument, meaning learn it like you would an instrument. And here you have Erik Ron saying that he must have edited the same drums 500 times because a basketball player, he looks up to practice for X amount of time. So that's kind of how you got to look at these things. You got to practice them enough until you literally are a virtuoso of your da, because I'm telling you, the guys who get the gigs are fucking flying fast.

(00:17:01):

The first time that I met one of these assistant engineer types was when I went to England to work with Colin Richardson, and he had a dude named Matt Hyde running Pro Tools. And the guy was just like, the guy must have been, if my RPMs were 2,400, he was at 15,000 or something. He was moving so fucking fast in Pro Tools, I could not handle it. I couldn't handle how fucking fast he was moving. And then I went to a few other studios and I saw that these pro assistant engineer, ProTool operator guys were just editing drums in four minutes. A song. It's like, whoa, it takes me three hours. What am I doing wrong? And then I practiced for a long time. So I think listeners pay close attention to what Erik Erik said, practice your asses off, take

Speaker 3 (00:17:51):

Drugs. Oh yeah, that too. That too. I've always tried to take the mentality and as integrated as it is now, I really feel like practicing your craft as an engineer over a producer has to come first. You need to know the fundamentals. And when I was coming up, my goal, because when I was coming up, there was actually different roles. You could be a producer and not know how to use the computer. So I was like a transport guy, and I'll get into that later, but I always wanted to be an extension of the producer's mind. I wanted to be able to do the thing he was going to say before he even said it, and I'll get into that more. But it's definitely putting yourself in that situation where you don't know you're slow until you see someone else flying through it and you're like, shit, I am slow. I need to, and it's not a race, but at the same time, you're going to get those gigs because of the quality work you do in an efficient amount of time.

Speaker 2 (00:18:56):

It is interesting that you might think you're fast until you see someone else. I feel like local bands suffer from this too, when a local band thinks that they're the hot shit and that they're going to get signed. I'm sure you've worked with some local bands who just don't have a good take on reality, and then they get to somehow open up for behemoth or something and they sold enough tickets and something happens and they get to play on the same stage as behemoth, and then it's like, sad trombone, you suck. You see how the big boys do it.

(00:19:41):

It's really easy when you're not. I guess the moral of the story is that if you're not out there seeing what people are doing, if you're not being shown where the bar is for expectation, if you're just locked in your room and not interacting or seeking information, then you might trick yourself into thinking that you're doing just fine when the world has laed you many times over and with mouse speed. That's certainly, that's certainly one of those things. You might think you're fasted Pro tools and then you somehow get to teleport into Dan Corn's room. Well, no, he doesn't use pro tools. So you get to teleport into the Chicos, the Chicos studio, and then you see what fast on Pro Tools really means.

Speaker 3 (00:20:36):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:20:37):

Yeah, it's crazy. You can't use yourself as a gauge, I guess.

Speaker 3 (00:20:43):

No, no, not at all. Not at all. And I think even kind of moving along to where I was talking about with that story is there weren't really any bands that could even afford the studio if I wanted to record these bands. And I wasn't even charging. I just wanted to get 'em in and show what I could do and try to really get better at my craft. I knew that I had a long way to go. I never, at a certain point, especially back then, was like, I'm ready for the big time. It was like baby steps for me.

Speaker 2 (00:21:18):

I think that that's smart. I think more people should take a baby steps mentality actually.

Speaker 3 (00:21:27):

Absolutely. I think it's important to have your long-term goal and knowing your short steps to get there, because you can't skip the line. The only way you can really skip the line is if you are in a very, very big famous band and all of a sudden you want to record bands. I'm seeing a lot of this lately, and people just record. They'll record with you. They just want to kind of smell the back of your head while you're working. And that's a way to do it.

Speaker 2 (00:21:56):

I can think of one, but I'm not going to name them.

Speaker 3 (00:21:58):

Yeah, there's a ton. And it's not a knock on them because a lot of people get enamored by the studio. I've seen it in bands that I've produced developing bands. I could tell the people who are paying extra attention to every click that I'm making, and some of them even just quit their band and want to just record bands after, because why do I have to tour when I can just do this and be creative all the time? Let's do this. So I'll see it and I'll spot it right away. Hey, that was me.

Speaker 2 (00:22:29):

That was me. I toured for a long time and got the opportunity to go full time with Jason Soff and Mark Lewis at Audio Hammer and that goodbye touring career.

Speaker 3 (00:22:45):

And that's the move you have to take. And I did the band thing for a while, and to me, that was my dream and engineering was my backup plan, which is not a very smart backup plan. Same here. But God damnit, I wasn't going to fail at one of 'em, and I knew it just wasn't an option for

Speaker 2 (00:23:05):

Me. Seems like it worked out just fine. So let's talk about this scenario. So you respond to an ad, and these multimillionaires built a studio basically out on a whim, and it basically just kind of turned into your training grounds because no clients were really going to come in there at those prices. So you had this awesome place decked out to just use as your studio gym.

Speaker 3 (00:23:39):

Yeah, it's exactly what it was. I got the test out gear that I couldn't afford with microphones that I couldn't afford state-of-the-art equipment. I mean, it even had this control surface that had 128 channels. What are you going to do with 128 faders? At the time, it was probably like $120,000 mouse. The guy

Speaker 2 (00:24:02):

Was, was it like an icon or something?

Speaker 3 (00:24:04):

It was before Icon. It was, I want to say a control. Oh man, I wish I remembered the name. It might've been the control. No way before that. Oh man. I'll have to look it up. But it was whatever the icon was for 2001 or 2002 Pro remote, I don't even remember. I should know better.

Speaker 2 (00:24:26):

Yeah, it

Speaker 3 (00:24:26):

Doesn't matter. But it was a long time ago. Anyway, it was useless. I never used it at all. I mean, it had the monitor section on it, that was about it. But it had the nicest Gen X you could buy. It had surround sound. I don't think we ever used it. It even had tape machines, which I never plugged in. It just sat there. I mean, I want to know where all the money came from and if I could get some of that. And I actually, about three months into it, I found where the money came from because the building, the office was attached to the studio, and I went into, we needed something, and I went in and I found out the hard way what it was, it was a Japanese porn company. Yes. I don't remember what it was called, but I walked in and saw something horrendous on the screen, and I was shocked.

(00:25:16):

This was dirty money. And I loved every second of it. And I think that's actually when I kind of started to ask for more participation in stuff. Maybe they'll put me in on a session. I don't know what it was to be honest. I still after my own heart, but I was 18. I was just stoked that this actually existed. I didn't know. You never know who makes this kind of stuff. So I started to kind of, once I knew where the money came from, I was like, all right, I don't feel bad asking if I can record a band here. Nothing's happening. And then eventually with it, there was just no room for growth. It was like, all right, I think I've cataloged snare samples or something from CDs enough. It was a bunch of busy work. I got to record a few things that I was, I think proud of. I haven't listened to it, but I also, that's where I learned my first boner moment, which was unplugging a hard drive while transferring. And you're all going to go through this. You're not going to think about it, but it was the first time I lost a session. It was gone. So I paid out of my own pocket to rerecord this whole thing, because I was a dengu man. We

Speaker 2 (00:26:35):

All go through those. Mine happened when I had both my hard drives, and this was before the days of cloud backups and everything.

Speaker 3 (00:26:46):

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26:47):

I had both my drives backing up and sinking up when my place got struck by lightning. Holy shit. Well, yeah, yeah. Holy shit is right. And it wiped both of them. Oh my God. Dude, it was so bad. I lost two albums on it. Luckily, one of the bands was sitting there with me

Speaker 3 (00:27:09):

And

Speaker 2 (00:27:09):

Saw what happened. And so I recorded them for free from the start. They were really cool. I mean, they saw the explosion. Literally, a giant spark came out of my computer, and it was so bad, dude. I lost a lot of gear. So they were so cool about it. This other band thought, I just made it up and ditched me.

Speaker 3 (00:27:38):

At least you have a good excuse. I don't have that excuse. Well, I mean, it's

Speaker 2 (00:27:44):

A good excuse if they believe you, but it's also one of those things where it's like, my dog ain't my homework, kind of thing. It's like my studio got struck by lightning and I lost your record. It's like, yeah, right. You just lost our record.

Speaker 3 (00:28:00):

Well, if they don't believe you, I think they got bigger issues. That's quite an excuse to make up.

Speaker 2 (00:28:05):

Yeah. I mean, I've never really, that's the only time I've ever lost somebody's records. But yeah, so we all do it. It happens. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:28:15):

And so once that kind of ran its course, and then I'm going to give you guys a huge curve ball surprise here. That girl I moved up to the Bay Area for She De Me, Chelsea Clinton, something like that.

Speaker 2 (00:28:30):

Oh, was it Chelsea Clinton? I thought that was going to be the big curve ball,

Speaker 3 (00:28:36):

Not quite, but she dumped you. She dumped me, and I went, what am I doing with my life? And what a, yeah. So water's wet, right? When you move for a girl, you lose your ambition that you're not the same person. I see it time and time again in bands. That's a whole nother thing we can get into. But ultimately now, so is it okay with you if I even go further back than 2003? Because it's part of the story.

Speaker 2 (00:29:01):

Let's step back into the hot tub time machine, dude.

Speaker 3 (00:29:04):

All right. So some of you probably weren't even born yet. I'm not even that old. But I started young. So when I was 13 or so, a band changed my life forever. And that band was called Incubus because I grew up, my influences were hip hop and rock, and there was new metal, but this was the first time rock to me was cool. And it had this urban feel to it, but it wasn't new metal. And I was a huge new metal fan, but this was in the maturing process of my ears and what I like to hear. And Brandon Boyd just did it for me and Lyric and everything. And it just really put me in a situation that I felt changed everything for me. And so I wanted to show my gratitude, and I was always a little bit of a computer nerd as well. I was always kind of nerdy. So I made a website. It was called incubus online.com. Please reach out to me. If any of you ever went to this website, please. I would love to hear who actually witnessed this website, because it actually started to get really big, and it was getting three or 4 million hits a month, which at the time was very, very big. I even had help. That's still big. I don't even know now. Yeah, I guess so was

Speaker 2 (00:30:22):

It's still big dude,

Speaker 3 (00:30:23):

Three

Speaker 2 (00:30:23):

Or 4 million hits a month. That's good.

Speaker 3 (00:30:27):

I believe it was even featured in Rolling Stone Magazine in a little blurp and even the Incubus team. So I got an email from Steve Rennie's team who was Incubus, his manager at the time,

Speaker 2 (00:30:41):

Redmond.

Speaker 3 (00:30:42):

And it wasn't him though. It was a guy named Adam. And he said, Hey, we hate our official site. It takes way too long to get things updated and whatever. He's like, can we give you news and info to post? And in return, you can have backstage passes whenever we come to la. And I was like, oh, shit. I made it the movie almost famous in my head. It was about to be like that. I'm almost famous. And so my dad took me to the first few shows, which is embarrassing, but you do what you got to do. And I had, well, how old were you? I was 14 maybe. Well,

Speaker 2 (00:31:20):

Of course your dad took you.

Speaker 3 (00:31:22):

Yeah, I was 14. Something around that, and I got to hang with them a little bit.

Speaker 2 (00:31:27):

So you did this at 14?

Speaker 3 (00:31:30):

Yeah. I always had a little bit of an entrepreneurial stance on life, because I grew up

(00:31:37):

In a very middle class family, but my mom was convinced we were poor. Always, always, always. And so she was the kind of mom, and I love her to death for it. I'm forever grateful. She was the kind of person that would take me to Toys R Us, but we wouldn't buy anything. And then I'd have to be the guy, why are we even here? And she's like, at least I took you. And so I was always like, I had the mentality that if I wanted something, I was going to get it. I was going to take it. And so I started nannying at age 12. Ironically, I was nannying for a vocal coach and their kid. So that comes down the line later in a story too. But it got to the point, the website was getting big, and I was actually making about $800 a month in advertising revenue as a kid.

(00:32:26):

And so it was pretty amazing. I was really happy. And I had a guy in la I needed help with the website, so I met this guy online. His name was Marty. He's probably going to hear this. And so shout out to Marty. And we just remained friends. And he was 10 years older than me, and he came up once to San Francisco. I can only imagine what my mom was thinking when we went to an Incubus show. And this guy 10 years older than me, he is like, Hey, I'm here to pick up your son. She didn't even flinch. She was like, cool, take him. Now that I think about it, it could have been real dangerous.

(00:33:02):

And so I met him, and we just kept in touch and we became good friends. And so when I told him I wanted to move to la, I ended up moving in with him. And so when I moved up to the Bay, when I moved back to the Bay, I talked to Marty. I was like, I got to get back down to la. What am I doing with my life? And Marty ended up going to recording schools, or he went to music business school at Musicians Institute, which is where I went. And he knew some people. He's like, I can get you into this studio. Come on down. And I just had a wild hair at my ass. I left. I just took off. I didn't care. I just wanted to get down there. And so I got introduced from Marty to a few guys.

Speaker 2 (00:33:50):

Wait, so did you run away from home?

Speaker 3 (00:33:52):

I didn't run away. I said, I'm going back to LA the quickest I can go. And my parents are all about it. They've always been.

Speaker 2 (00:34:01):

How old were you at this point?

Speaker 3 (00:34:02):

Oh, at this point, I was 18. Oh, okay. So time went by. Yeah. Yeah. So four years had passed, and it got to the point I even got an offer to, someone wanted to buy the website off me for quite a bit of money, and then it ended up falling through last second. But someone did end up buying the website off of me. It wasn't for very much money, it was just time to move on. But I remained close with everyone. The website might still exist. I haven't been to it in 10 years. I'm looking right now. Check it out if it's on there

Speaker 2 (00:34:37):

In Cuba,

Speaker 3 (00:34:38):

Online.

Speaker 2 (00:34:39):

Online,

Speaker 3 (00:34:40):

Does it exist? Is it there anymore?

Speaker 2 (00:34:43):

Does

Speaker 3 (00:34:43):

It redirect to CNN? What does it do?

Speaker 2 (00:34:45):

The ultimate source for everything in Cubas.

Speaker 3 (00:34:48):

Oh, yes. That is

Speaker 2 (00:34:50):

Awesome. Home art history members, concert discs, facts. That is awesome. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (00:34:55):

Still there. Yeah. So I'm fast forwarding a little bit. And so I met with some people that Marty introduced me to, and they said, Hey, we need an assistant engineer. Why don't you come down? I was like, say no more. I'll be here next week. Maybe two weeks later. I moved. This was September, 2005. I'll never forget this time in my life. It was wild. It was 2005. September I moved down and I get situated, and I'm living with Marty in Woodland Hills, California. And a few days I get situated. I call the studio and I say, Hey, I'm here. I'm ready. Let me know when you want me to come in. And he goes, Hey, man, we're closing. And I said, you're what? He goes, yeah, we're going to shut down. And I said, wait, you're kidding me, right? You knew I was moving down here for this. He goes, yeah, sorry, man. And that was one of the last times I ever talked to him.

Speaker 2 (00:36:01):

Just like, surprise. We're closing after you moved.

Speaker 3 (00:36:05):

Yep. Yep. So that was one of my real big welcome to LA Moments. Everything can change in a blink of an eye. So just be ready. Yeah. I say, yeah, but I was pretty optimistic about it. I'm like, you know what? I'm a songwriter. I'm in a band.

Speaker 2 (00:36:26):

Real quick. When you first heard that, what was your initial feeling? How did you react?

Speaker 3 (00:36:32):

I ate an entire package of Oreos.

Speaker 2 (00:36:34):

Okay. Did you have that sinking feeling in your stomach?

Speaker 3 (00:36:38):

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. I really was devastated. My roommate walked in. I was on the couch eating Oreos, and he is like, did you eat the whole thing? And I said, I blacked out. I can't stop. And I was pretty desolate for a second. And how

Speaker 2 (00:36:55):

Long did it take for you to snap out of it? And

Speaker 3 (00:36:59):

About 48 hours. So I went directly to That's an

Speaker 2 (00:37:03):

Acceptable amount of time.

Speaker 3 (00:37:04):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, well, I can't pay my rent currently, so let's get to work. And so I got a job at Best Buy in Home Theater, and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to write songs. I'm going to work on my craft. I'm going to wait it out and see what happens. So I was there for about two weeks, and I got a call from someone I met through Marty, and he said, Hey, I need some drums edited. Can you come in? And I was like, I'll be there as soon as you need me. So I got off of work, I went there, and I was the most confident at drum editing. I told you I did it about 600 times at this point. So I was ready, put me in, I'll nail this thing. And so I go in and the artist's name was after Midnight Project, and they were signed to an indie label. And it was at a different studio, Woodland Hills, and it was a privately owned studio that had SSL boards, the works. It was the big time for me. It was the first real thing I did. Were you wearing your Best Buy uniform when you showed up? I was not. I should have though.

Speaker 2 (00:38:14):

Bummer.

Speaker 3 (00:38:14):

Oh, well, I should have. And the artist was so nice to me. His name was Jason Egan. He's actually a really big songwriter right now, but the band was called After Midnight Project, and he was with me the whole time. Couldn't have been nicer to me. And while that was happening, there was a huge falling out in the other room. I heard some yelling. There was just some commotion. I couldn't tell what was happening. And the producer, which I barely knew, I barely met him, he storms in and he's just like, Hey, you. And he points at me, he goes, you know how to record? And I was like, yeah. He's like, come on in. And I was like, oh, okay. And I came in and I did some recording, and I kind of looked around. It was a very high pressure situation. And he's like, all right, you know how to mix. I'm like, yeah, of course. And I do a little mixing, and he is like, all right, cool. You want to work here? And I was just like, yeah. He's like, all right, you're in. Let's do this. And it was the strangest thing for me because I started out with it was talk about at the right place at the right time.

Speaker 2 (00:39:24):

What happened? Did someone just get fired right then and there? I

Speaker 3 (00:39:27):

Think there was just a falling out with the engineer. I don't actually know. It happened. I don't care. It changed everything for me. So thank you to that fight. And it was very, very high pressure. I was not prepared, but I just took the opportunity and no one told me that I fucked it up or didn't know what I was doing. I didn't necessarily feel confident. But definitely when I was first starting out, I was overcompensating. I probably was a lot more arrogant than I should have been, but I had to prove, and I didn't want anyone to know my age. I didn't want anyone to, I think I was 19 at this point. And so I just kind of acted like I've done it before and I'm going to do it again. I am going to keep going back to Barry Sanders, even though I'm a Cleveland Browns fan, but whatever. Barry Sanders is my favorite football player of all time.

Speaker 2 (00:40:21):

So how did you go about handling the stress or the adrenaline and just keeping a cool head?

Speaker 3 (00:40:29):

Stress didn't exist for me then. There was nothing stressful about that. I wasn't at that point, nothing stressed. I think the only thing that stressed me out was trying to get paid from these label situations when in 2000, I mean, not a whole lot has changed, but in 2005, it was like you build a label and hopefully in 90 days you see something. And it was like when you're just starting, when you're paycheck to paycheck, that shit does not work.

Speaker 2 (00:40:56):

Okay. So basically it sounds to me like you had already done all this stuff before through your little, let's just say through your training level Exactly. At that other studio. And so were you just kind of in the mindset of just doing what you do?

Speaker 3 (00:41:15):

Exactly. That's all I wanted to do is just show people that I knew what I was doing and wait for someone to tell me otherwise. And I guess no one really did. And so I got the confidence and I felt trained from recording school on a board. It wasn't too much. Time went by. I knew how to work a 4K, an SSL 4K for anyone who doesn't know what A 4K is, it's a console, it's analog. It's not a plugin. I know they make one now, but

Speaker 2 (00:41:48):

A real thing

Speaker 3 (00:41:48):

And heat radiates off of it, a lot of it. And so I felt fairly confident. I probably shouldn't have, but I really felt comfortable with that board. If it was a new board, I probably would've been screwed. And there was some growing pains along the way, but such is life.

Speaker 2 (00:42:09):

Such is life. So they were confident in you, and did you end up finishing that record?

Speaker 3 (00:42:16):

I did. I ended up being the engineer on the whole record, and then I ended up being the chief engineer. I say the word chief to make it sound more important, but I was the only engineer at this studio, which had two rooms in it, and it was privately owned. It was in a guy's house, but there were hundreds of thousands of dollars put into it. And so really my job from there was to be an assistant engineer or an engineer to a producer as really anyone rented the studio out. And so that was time that I'm forever grateful for because it gave me the ability to work with different producers under different pressure situations. I think one of the first gigs I ever had from that was a producer named John Fields, and he was famous for doing, he did the second Jimmy Eat World record.

Speaker 4 (00:43:09):

Oh, nice.

Speaker 3 (00:43:10):

He did, I think a bunch of the early Switchfoot stuff, and he was working with Clay Aiken at the time. So my first real famous guy I met was Clay Aiken. He was, for anyone who doesn't know, he was an AmErikan Idol, either winner or a high up contestant. But he had his moment in the sun.

Speaker 2 (00:43:27):

I mean, that was a big name. That was a really big name.

Speaker 3 (00:43:30):

And so

Speaker 2 (00:43:31):

I remember him,

Speaker 3 (00:43:32):

That one, I didn't do any engineering, but I was in the room and I was helping set up John Fields who was really nice to me. And he ended up actually recording there a bunch. And so we spent a little bit of time together, but he was also an engineer, so I didn't do a whole lot. That was mainly just Mike setups passing, assisting. Exactly. I was assisting, and I didn't mind it at all because I was really still learning. And I learned some culture. My first favorite vocal signal chain came from working with him. He was all about API into a stressor, and I used that for years. That was my

Speaker 2 (00:44:06):

Dude, API into a stressor, SM seven B into an API into a distress, can't go wrong. And then sometimes an 1176 after that stressor and got some magic.

Speaker 3 (00:44:21):

Exactly. And so he kind of taught me how to get the bite from a vocal. And there's no better chain for getting bite than an API into a distress. It's just screams, just transient and constants. Everything cuts through. And so yes, it does. That was it for me. That was my chain until I adapt it a little bit. And I actually still have, I'm staring at it while we're talking, going like, huh, maybe I should go back to that. And the distressor is a very easy compressor for anyone that wants to spend a grand on an easy to use compressor. You guys should get a distressor. You really can't mess it up a great,

Speaker 2 (00:45:04):

It's a compressor that I'd say that if you're at a point where you're like, okay, I want to start buying some outboard. You've got your monitors, your room, your computer, all that is good, and you really want some outboard in your life, start with a stressor.

Speaker 3 (00:45:22):

This is my opinion. Couldn't agree more, couldn't agree more.

(00:45:24):

And then from that point, there was just different genres, different. So it really put me in some situations that influenced me in my career. Now I ended up working for DJ Quick, which is this legendary West Coast producer. So I got to work on tracks with Nate Dogg and Chingy and Exhibit and all. I was getting credible. I was working on some real shit, and I was getting really stoked. And at the same time, I kept my job at Best Buy only on Sundays because I was so prepared for all of this to end. I was still a little bit in shock. This was only maybe six months into my career at this point of actually making money doing music that. So Sundays, I worked for way less money, doing way harder work at Best Buy. And it all came to a screeching halt when I was selling TVs on a Sunday.

(00:46:23):

And John Fields walks in, which is the producer that I was kind of working for at the time, and he saw you at Best Buy. He saw me at Best Buy, and he goes, and I was like, oh shit. I'm in my fucking blue outfit and my khakis. And he's just like, Erik. And I'm like, Hey, John. He's like, what are you doing here? And I'm like, I don't know. Do you want a tv? And he goes, yeah, actually I do. And I go in the back to look for something and I call the studio manager and I go, oh, Kurt, his name is Kurt Cuomo. And I said, Kurt John is here. And he goes, you got to get out of there, dude. And I was like, I got to get out of there. I was like, you got to promise me this is all going to work out. And he said to me, and I'll never forget, he said, Erik, this is all going to work out. And I quit that day, and that was the last time I had a real job. That's a great story.

Speaker 2 (00:47:20):

Van, did you feel, I don't know, slightly ashamed to be seen in the uniform by your studio colleagues?

Speaker 3 (00:47:29):

I did, because I didn't want to insult him. He was paying me just fine. And so I just didn't want him to feel like that. And it was a little embarrassing. Not that that job is embarrassing at all. It's just about, I didn't want anyone to know my age. I didn't want anyone to know that I wasn't making a lot of money. There's just a certain, there's a way you have to kind of show your perception is important

(00:47:56):

Of how you look and seem and feel. And if it seems like you're struggling, somehow your ideas aren't going to be as good. And I ran into that a little bit further along when people found out my age, I was doing this record, I was the maid engineer for this Australian idol. His name is Shannon Noel. He's actually really, really famous in Australia. Australians will say nosy. They call him nosy. He's actually kind of like a internet meme now. But he's an incredible singer. And there was a time where they asked me to go get some beer. And it is just like I couldn't do it. I had to. And normally when that would happen, I would tell the studio owner, he'd go get it, bring him back to me. He was a big, big champion of mine, big supporter. So he was down to do that kind of stuff for me. But he was out of town. And so I had to be like, guys, I can't get this.

Speaker 2 (00:48:48):

Wait, so this all happened before you were even 21? This

Speaker 3 (00:48:52):

All happened before I was even 21. Okay. And I had to explain to him that I couldn't, I wasn't of age. And after that, the producer looked at me completely differently. Any confidence I had, he immediately flipped that into arrogance and would kind of snap at me. And maybe he was a little threatened. I don't know. I kind of lost touch with him. I won't even say his name, but he trusted my ear. He trusted me on even vocal comp takes. And all of a sudden it was like, are you sure about that? Are you sure about that? And I was like, ah, fuck. This sucks. But it comes with the territory.

Speaker 2 (00:49:31):

Yeah. I can see why you were wanting to hide your age. Yeah. Wow. I've never heard of that happening.

Speaker 3 (00:49:38):

Really?

Speaker 2 (00:49:39):

Yeah. Well, I've never heard of one of those types of situations. I've just never heard of it. But I can totally see how it would happen because I mean, it's hard to take a 20-year-old seriously sometimes.

Speaker 3 (00:49:55):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:49:58):

As an equal in the decision making level of a project. It's just hard.

Speaker 3 (00:50:07):

It's

Speaker 2 (00:50:07):

Hard to do.

Speaker 3 (00:50:07):

Especially when the producer is a guy in his forties that did a Bon Jovi record before this one and is going, are you sure? And he's listening to me until he wasn't anymore. Well, unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (00:50:23):

Now he looks at you like a kid.

Speaker 3 (00:50:25):

Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:50:25):

Exactly.

Speaker 3 (00:50:27):

It wasn't a peer anymore.

Speaker 2 (00:50:28):

Yeah. I mean, I feel bad for you at the same time. It's like I get it from his end, but it is not that I don't think it's cool, but

Speaker 3 (00:50:41):

I totally get it. And that was my mentality is I understand. I didn't think he was wrong. I didn't think I was wrong. But it was definitely a lesson that some things you have to keep close to your chest and you kind of have to figure out along your path what that is. Every situation is different.

Speaker 2 (00:51:02):

Like my third nipple.

Speaker 3 (00:51:04):

Exactly. If it ever got out, I don't know exactly. I don't know. I cry myself to sleep every single night, but there's only a few people I tell that to. Shit. I just did it on a podcast Anyway. I cry myself to sleep every night. It happens. It happens.

Speaker 2 (00:51:20):

And I tried to tattoo a triangle between my nipples

Speaker 4 (00:51:25):

So

Speaker 2 (00:51:25):

That I could at least do something great with the third one. But now everyone knows

Speaker 3 (00:51:30):

That sounds

Speaker 2 (00:51:31):

Very illuminati of you. That's right. Confirmed. Alright, so what happened next? Suddenly the dream gig is not so much the dream gig, so

Speaker 3 (00:51:44):

Not so much the dream gig, but then I stumbled into my first real moment of what is the word of validation? It was my first real validating moment was I started working, someone came into the studio and he was an r and b producer, and I love r and b. I'm absolutely head over heels in love with r and b. It's a passion of mine. It's what I listen to for fun. It's what I try to infuse into rock music. We'll also, clearly, we'll get into that at the end of this journey, but we came in and I was working on some really cool artists, and that's when I got the call that Brandy's coming in. And Brandy is easily one of my top five favorite artists of all time. And so that's when I had my first, oh shit, you got to bring it.

(00:52:36):

So she comes in and she's wonderful. She's sweet and nice, and she's a veteran. She's been doing it since she was a kid. And so it was going to be interesting because I was maybe a year into this, maybe two years, somewhere in between. And the producer had full trust in me. He thought I was real quick. And so I think he knew my age at this point. And we go through the takes and she goes quick, she wants to go fast. She wants to blow through it. She was going faster than the computer would even allow this point. And so for me, it was sink or swim. And so I did it and I moved probably the fastest I ever moved on Pro Tools. And she was doing her takes and doing her harmony. She liked to do everything at once. And we were just blowing through.

(00:53:31):

I literally felt like, I think I was sweating. I was moving so quick and I was nervous. And her bodyguards are right behind me. If I felt like if I looked at her the wrong way, someone's going to backhand me. It was. But there was also partying going on, and I think there was Hennessy in the picture at some point. I didn't drink, I was just focused. And she comes in and she says, Hey, can I, Erik, Erik, right? And I'm like, yeah. She goes, can I call you E? I'm like, of course. And she's like, yo, I just got to say that I was at P Diddy studio earlier and you're like one of the fastest dudes I've ever worked with. My mouth just went to the floor and the producer behind me is jumping up and down, I'm not going to say the N word, but he was saying, he was jumping going, my, you guys can fill in the blank. And he's like jumping around. I felt like King of the world. This was a brand new experience for me. There was nothing like this. And I'm just sitting here going like, Brandy, you're the top for me. This, you just made

Speaker 2 (00:54:37):

My life complete.

Speaker 3 (00:54:40):

And you know how there's some things I was saying, you have to hold close to your chest. This is it. This was one of those things I knew I shouldn't say. So I was like, your voice is amazing. You're making it very easy for me. And I just kind of did that counter gratitude. And she's like, yo, E, I got to introduce you to my brother, Ray JI want you to do his album. Not like I knew who Ray J was. Everyone knows this was pre-ex tape, by the way. And isn't that weird that I have to preface that something is pre-ex tape? What kind of world are we in?

Speaker 2 (00:55:11):

It helps, man. It helps. Its adds context.

Speaker 3 (00:55:16):

So I was e, that was it forever. That changed everything for me because it went from hoping I knew what I was doing to someone real telling me I knew what I was doing and there was no better feeling. And then after that, it kind of went to some awesome gigs, some just overall just kind of moving around in the same studio, just different producers. And I even got to work on the Guns N Roses album for two and a half months. Nice. Let me clear that up though. I didn't actually do anything because Axel didn't show up for longer than 15 minutes one time. Once. So what did you do on the Guns

Speaker 2 (00:56:00):

And Roses album?

Speaker 3 (00:56:01):

The producer downloaded a lot of porn on Limewire really. After a certain point I left. So let's back up. I didn't actually do anything on the Guns N Roses record, but I was hired to be an assistant engineer on a Guns N Roses record. I'll tell some, just take it for what it is. I didn't actually do anything, anything but the coolest moment because nothing was happening. Nothing was happening. But during this time is when I was the engineer on an Edgar Winter record. I don't know if any of you know who that is, but he had I do that song, come on and Take a Free Ride. He had that and he had some other big songs. He had, I think it was the first number one instrumental, this song called Frankenstein. Look it up. He's a legend. His brother's Johnny Winter, who's a legendary guitarist. And so he did a record and I was the engineer and the studio owner was the producer. And so I got to work on that record during this Guns N Roses process. Fast forward about a month or two in, and I'm told that slash wants to come in and play some guitar.

(00:57:13):

I'm like, oh, here we go. This is slash this is 2007 at this point. And I've got slash

Speaker 2 (00:57:20):

Is my hero,

Speaker 3 (00:57:21):

And I've got Guns and Roses in one room and slash in the other. And you better believe they cannot know about each other. So we're freaking out at the studio going like, holy shit, how do we do that? How do we pull this off? What if Axle shows up? Are we creating Rock World War iii? What the hell is about to happen? So at this point, it's really, really interesting. It's fascinating. I'm scared. I'm excited because slash is slash So he comes in. Oh, so the Guitar Tech comes in earlier and beats me up a little bit with the tones. He's happy with the tones he brought in his own gear, like the classic Les Paul, he uses his Marshall and everything, and we dial the tones up and I'm scared he's going to be like, yo, you're fucking fired. What are you doing? But he was like, cool, he'll like this.

(00:58:11):

So I'm like, all right, cool. And so I'm running Pro Tools and the producer's there and some other people are there, and we're just kind getting in the mode. But every once in a while I'm going to run to the other room and I go, everyone okay here, you guys, good actual's coming. You got to tell, please give me half hour notice of actual's coming. And I didn't say why. And so I go back. He didn't end up showing up that night. So that was fine. And actually during that moment, there are two things that were really, really interesting during the slash session besides him shredding and me being a little bit star struck is he goes to light up a cigarette rat. And I tell him he can't in the studio just because of the gear. And I've heard of him kind of being a dick sometimes in the studio. And he looks at me, he looks away, he looks at me and he goes, okay. And he goes outside. And I was like, holy shit. I just told slash that you could not smoke in here. What the fuck's wrong with me? I should have let him do it.

(00:59:15):

And then he cut, but he didn't mind. He didn't mind. It could have gone bad. Who knows? I'll never know. And then also while we're tracking, we run out of hard drive space. And so I go into panic mode and I clear some stuff in between takes. I don't even know how I did it looking back on it, but I switched some partitioning really fast and no one even really knew what happened. And I just feel like I saved a day, but no one knew. And that's a lot of making records too, is saving the day with knowing what really no one knows or appreciates it. So there's little victories that you got to take internally. And for me, this was one of 'em was making sure that there was no downtime creating some hard drive space in between slash soloing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):

And what was it like just as from a fanboy perspective, getting to work with him?

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):

Well, it was amazing because you really, and he's just, he's his own beast. And so it was really cool. We did 30 takes, I think of him just soloing. There was no direction. It was like, just do you, you're slash So it was really cool getting to comp the stuff together and help create, create the melodies of it by just taking the best of him with the producer and Edgar of course, and really crafting that solo into something and it's really cool. And so it was a special moment. I was really honored to be part of it. And it was definitely an experience. I'll never forget,

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):

His tone is just, I don't know, second to none. So identifiable

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):

Absolutely as him. And it's all vintage gear. There's nothing new. At least when I record him, he could have updated it now, but it's like a 59 Les Paul, I think, and a sixties and a Marshall Cat. It's like, it's the stuff that a lot of you'll never get to understand until you go and rent this gear in LA or something. It is hard to explain the difference until you're in front of it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):

Yeah, for sure. Wow, so that's a milestone.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):

Absolutely. I've ever heard one that was a milestone for me. And then I just kind of kept going until I got a call to interview and audition to work for John Feldman.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):

Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):

Yes. And so this was late 2008 at this point. And at this point I felt very confident with my engineering abilities. And I went in and I already was kind of told he auditioned like 30 dudes at this point and I felt ready. And so I came by the studio and I talked to the engineer who was leaving. He gave me some really cool advice and a few tips on how to get through it. He was really friendly. We're still friends to this day. Shout out to Kyle Morman if he ever hears this. Well,

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):

I've heard that the Feldman process is grueling.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):

That you better be ready.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):

You better be ready for a 24 7, 365 adventure.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):

Yep, absolutely. That's exactly what it is. It's bootcamp. No matter how prepared I was, it's bootcamp. And so I went in, I met with John for a few minutes. He's like, cool, show me what you got. Edit this entire song, add some production, just do your thing to it. And so I spend about four hours and I make sure it's perfect and I leave and I don't hear anything for a week. So I'm like, well, guess he didn't like it. And so I get a text from him or a call, I can't remember which one, and he goes, Hey, when are you going to come in and do that and audition? And I was like, I did. We met. He was like, oh, we did shit. Want to come in and do it again? I was like, okay. So I actually got to do it twice. He never even heard the first one. So I got to take what I did and make

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):

It. I bet you that was part of the test.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):

Yeah, I don't even know. I don't think so. I think he just didn't even know I was there. And so I did it a second time, which probably helped me. And about a week later he called me while I was at a show and he said, I'd love to offer you the gig. Come in, let's talk. And it was kind of a bootcamp from there. And so that was a big milestone for me. I really, really respected John's energy and obviously goes without saying the records he did. And what's funny is my favorite album that he did, the one that made me a fan of his is a record that never even really came out. It was a band called City Sleeps. And it leaked two years before it actually ended up coming out. And somehow on the Innerwebs, I got my hands on it and it was the coolest thing I ever heard. To this day, I still think it's the coolest thing he ever did. It was like Prague, but catchy and it was unbelievably good.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):

And tell us a little bit about what it was working for him, because we've had Zach Sini on here and he told us, I want to hear it from a different perspective.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):

Working for, I was fast. I was fast at Pro Tools at this point, not according to John, I was slow. And this is, at this point, I'm four years into making music for a living. So I felt pretty experienced. I've been through some stuff. I had some records under my belt. I felt good and I felt ready. And I came in and the other engineer, because at that time he had two engineers and he came down and he said, Hey, John told me to come down and help you with some shortcuts. He thinks you're slow. And I'm just like, ah, okay. And he goes, Hey, here's the shortcuts. I'm like, yeah, I know all these. I know every, I got it. And he is like, okay, cool. See you. And just kind of left. And at that point, that's when it was like, alright, time to be faster.

(01:05:25):

So I was like lightning fast and extremely detail oriented. And working for John is very interesting. What it teaches you is a lot of self pride because if you had 78 things you were supposed to do and 77 of 'em are nailed and one thing wasn't done, the only thing it was going to let you know is that the one thing wasn't done. And so at first you're just like, well, I fucking suck. I'm not even really sure why he has me here. But it actually teaches you to just lick your own wounds and know that you know what? This is good. I don't care what anybody says, this is good. And that's a really valuable lesson moving up because there's so many times, especially with touring musicians and things where you'll send a song that you're so proud of and you won't hear back. And then you start to get this crippling self doubt. Do they hate it? Do they this? I don't do that shit. It's like if you like something, you're going to tell me. If not, I'm just going to assume I'm proud of what I did. I can hang my head on it. I can hang my hat on it. Sorry. So it's like,

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):

And there's also people who don't say anything when they're happy. They only say something when something needs to be fixed.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):

Exactly. And so I try to do that with my guys. I try to take some of those lessons and apply it to my bands and apply 'em. People who work for me or intern for me is I try to, at least if something's awesome, I really try to let 'em know that they killed it. And that's something I learned from that experience. And it's not like he did anything wrong. It's his way I was working for him. And what kind of tasks did he have you do? I mean, it was everything from production to editing to, it was a lot of editing and sometimes you'd come up with parts and it was putting me in a driver's seat with artists that wouldn't have given a shit about me otherwise. So I'll be forever grateful for that opportunity. I see.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):

And did you get any time off?

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):

No,

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):

It was every single day, right?

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):

12 hours a day, seven days a week. So it was 84 hours. And that's not a joke. It was like that's what you were expected to do. Other engineers before me actually said that I had it easy. Some people were there 15 hours a day, 18 hours a day. They'd laugh at me and be like, oh man, you got it easy. You don't even have to go do runs. You don't have to go to Pinkberry. Oh, you got it easy, dude. I'm just like, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):

Oh yeah, I heard that he sometimes would have the assistants go pick up, go pick up his son from soccer practice or

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):

Go

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):

Pick up pink berry for everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):

And when you work for him, you're just part of the family. You're babysitting sometimes if you have no work to do, you're babysitting. It was like that. And keep in mind, this is from late 2008 to 2010.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):

And

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):

So his kids were very young and this kids are adorable. Mean, the whole family's amazing. And so it's not a bad situation.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):

It's not a bad thing to get to hang out with this kid sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):

And actually seems like that would be a nice break from audio of his family school.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):

It was. And this is when his house was in Bel Air. And so his house was amazing on the hill and there was a pool it, it had a good view, it had good vibes. And so it really kind of taught me about where you can go too and how to interact with industry people. And I took all the information and I soaked it in a sponge. And every meeting I overheard or everything, I just soaked it in. And it's people I keep in touch with to this day.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):

So first of all, I'm blown away by your history. I didn't realize how deep and rich of a history you have and how multifaceted it is. And I think that a lot of people don't know. I think you were totally right when you said that we're going to talk about stuff that people didn't know you did.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):

And I'm only scratching the surface. This is a condensed story. Well, it would be an oh biography for the record. And all my clients know this. All I want is to be a producer with an English accent because everything is so much more intense.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):

Man, I got to tell you that whenever we have someone with a British accent on nail the mix, it just seems so much more correct, whatever they're saying. It could be wrong, but it's not a British accent.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):

Yeah. If you asked me like, Erik, what's your favorite guitar? And I'll say, I got this guitar I got in 2004 and I did a custom color on it and it's my favorite. It's like, oh, cool. I'm like, this guitar from 2004, it's custom. You're like, oh my god, this guy's got a story. Yeah, that's not the best example. I have better examples, but we're yellowing. It's a podcast

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):

Dude. But still, the British accent goes a long way.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):

It really does. And so I am a true spokesperson of working your way up. And I have so many stories and I learned so many things from people not only of what to do but what not to do. I think I learned more about what not to do than what to do.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):

Well, let's talk a little bit, let's take a break from your history and talk a little bit about what not to do.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):

Oh man. Do I got to do that? I don't want to put people on blast. I if they hear this thing, I'm like, yo, why'd you say that, bro? Well,

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):

No naming names.

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):

Oh,

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):

Cool.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):

Just one big mistake that you think an upcoming engineer should avoid. No naming names.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):

I think it has to do with the interaction with your artist. And I think if you have to make sure to create a vibe that's comfortable, and I've seen situations where the artist is miserable and the producer just doesn't really care. And I've seen that. I've seen just ways to make a vibe better or worse. And so anyone that's really recorded with me knows that the environment I create is a place where you can let it all out. I'm not just a producer, I'm a therapist and I know everything about you when you leave. I think people are probably nervous. I'll tell all their secrets, but I know everyone's secrets. If you want some dirt on someone, hit up your boy. I mean, I won't say it ever because I'm trustworthy, but that's something

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):

Client patient confidentiality.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):

And I know people's sexual fetishes versus what they really feel about the people that they live and work with and all that stuff. And I get to take it in and I'm going to use it as leverage to really screw people over later. Just kidding, just kidding. Don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):

So boy, it's interesting that I said, okay, so what's one thing that people shouldn't do? And the first thing you went to is involving client relations. And that's interesting because we always tell people, both here on the podcast and on nail the mix that your engineering skills should be assumed. It should be assumed that you're good if you're going for it, especially in a city like LA or Nashville or whatever. It should be assumed that you're good at audio. But in addition to that, you really need to know how to read a room and how to talk to people and how to get along with people and make friends and understand when to shut up, when to speak, and how to read between the lines. You really have to have good social skills. You

Speaker 3 (01:13:59):

Really do. And you can be that kind of quiet, awkward producer. And that totally works for some people. I know quite a few that are very successful and they're great people. They're just not very social and they don't really leave. They don't really like to get out. And I've always kind of tried to be the guy that's at all these parties and at these social events. I wanted to just meet people. When I left John Feldman's, when I left that situation, no one gave a fuck about me. I thought maybe I could kind of pick up and take it. And no one cared. Everyone has their four producers they work with. No one gave a shit on my skills. It was like, well, these are our guys. And so for me it was about creating relationships with the labels, meeting everyone I could, just listening to them. I didn't have anything to talk about, so I just listened. And that's advice I give. If you open up your personality to be someone that people can confide in, you're going to get a lot farther along. And so when I was starting out, I just listened to people and people would tell me things that I shouldn't have known. Even now, people would tell me things that I really don't want to know, but it's just something that I've put out in the universe that you can and should do with me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):

That makes sense. So alright, you left John Feldman and like you said, nobody gave a shit.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):

No one gave a shit. They're like, oh, cool. You worked on some awesome records. Awesome. We'll see what happens. And so my mentality was, well, no one's going to give me a shot, so I got to find a band and blow him up. That's the only way that people are going to care. And so what I did was I worked with a lot of developing acts that really just wanted to work with some real guys. And well, where, first

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):

Of all, where did

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):

You work with them? Oh, I scoured. Oh, let me tell you guys about Shitbox Studios. 1.0 AKA me building a studio in a rehearsal room that my band used to practice in. And so it was carpeted around the whole thing. So at least it was a place I could make noise 24 hours. I could track real drums, real guitars, and I could do that whole thing. And so my mentality was get 'em to not pay attention to the room, just focus on the quality of work, just do the major label work you've been doing the last two years on these development bands. And so I wanted to, wanted to work with the used. So I took a band and I made 'em sound like the used because I can't work with the used, but I'm going to do my best to create something. It was taking a bad band and making 'em good, and then taking a good band and making 'em great and making a great band and helping them be amazing. And so that's always the mentality was like, I'm going to create the product I want even though it's not with an artist that necessarily is there right away. But that's okay because I started to make a name for myself in the development world. So if there was something I liked about the band, I wanted to work on it and I wanted to see what I could do with it and then I could shop it around it. Anyone who gave a shit, I was that guy.

(01:17:18):

Facebook was kind of newer. It was still MySpace at this time. It was late 2009, early 2010, and I was finding bands on MySpace that I thought sounded cool. This was the last of the MySpace days, guys. You guys don't know how good we had it. We could find bands fucking easy. It was going through thousands of bands via top 30 twos and top eights and whatever it was. I would just go through the list until people wanted to record with me and I was charging next to nothing and I just wanted to create something big. I just wanted to be busy. I would've rather been busy than waiting for what I felt like my quality of work was worth. It was like start, it was like building blocks. Start with the band, do the best you can do with 'em and then show anyone who's willing to listen.

(01:18:10):

Yep. Eventually I did that for about a year and I was even starting to work with some bands from that weren't from California and people were flying in and flying in from France and all kinds of cool stuff. It was just like getting out there. And eventually I stumbled on a band that I really wanted to work with called I The Mighty. And that's the first time that I was like, guys, I want to do a production deal. They didn't have the money to record with me for what I wanted to charge, but I believed in, there was something about it. I felt like I could benefit, they could benefit from working with me. And so I did a production deal that was like, Hey guys, I'm going to hustle this. I'm going to help shop it. I'm going to do whatever, and if it gets signed, you just got to do your record with me.

(01:19:04):

And that's really the first time I did that. And then within a very short amount of time, they signed the Equal Vision Records. It was like, holy shit, here we go. Here's the big time I'm ready. Let's go. Here comes these $150,000 budgets, let's go. I was still a little bit delusional, and then I got the budget and I thought there was some zeros missing. I was not ready for this. And even though I thought I made it, it was two steps forward. And then I think I could have charged, I think I would've made more money just charging a regular, but that's not what it was about. It was about visibility, exposure and just showing people what I could do and helping this band.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):

I got to tell you, man, that back when I was doing this full time, I think that there were time periods where my biggest budgets came from unsigned bands.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):

Totally, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:06):

So

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):

Guys listening, don't think that there's anything wrong with doing locals sometimes if you get the right ones, you'll get paid better than on a label project.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):

Absolutely. This is true. And while I was getting, that was my first foot into the Erik Ron, the producer, not someone's engineer, this was the first time I was like, all right, this is your baby. And so I gave it everything I had and the band's been wonderful. I ended up doing their first EP and their first full length under Equal Vision. It helped create a relationship with Equal Vision that kind of ended up with me writing, with Set It Off. And now I'm fast forwarding to about late 2011, early 2012. And so this is the first time they started kind of doing songwriting for sign bands because every band that I was doing local stuff with, and I call it development because really that's what it is. It is like if you say money gig or local band, you're kind of a dick. I call it development. Fair enough. Because that's essentially your goal, is your developing something that is small in hopes to make it bigger. So let's call it

Speaker 4 (01:21:25):

Development.

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):

So I was writing with a lot of these developing acts, and I really felt strong about it, and a lot of people really liked what I was bringing to the table. And so it kind of got to the point where I was doing that with sign bands and I remember set it off as one of the first ones that they already picked their producer and everything. And so they're in la, they just want to do some songwriting. And so Equal Vision linked us together, and one of the songs we did ended up being one of their bigger singles. And it was really a good first step for me into like, okay, I want to be everything. I want to help write songs, I want to help craft it. I want to help shape it. I want to just make the product as big as it can be. And

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):

Let's talk about how those ended up going for you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):

Which ones

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):

Any of these development deals?

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):

Well, so the first production deal I ever did ended up being successful. It ended up being very beneficial and the band is well on their way, and we still keep in touch to this day. And the second one I did did not go so well. It was a band called Modern AmErikan Theater. It was like a minus, the bear meets Paramore. And I was like, this is going to be so sick. And it came out well, but the band just couldn't keep it together. They broke up. And I have a few of those stories going up to that. And so we had one big victory in the beginning and then a few losses, and it's just part of the territory. And then it started getting to a point where I helped develop an act, actually two acts in a row. My next two ended up signing with major labels, and I won't name 'em, but I actually ended up getting fucked out of both of those albums. One had ironclad paperwork and one didn't. And it was my next kind of steps forward and a few steps back, which is like there's always someone who has someone else's best interest in mind. Yes,

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):

For sure.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):

And so I could get into the negative aspects of building and growing, but no one wants to hear that. You guys don't want to hear that shit. You guys want to hear the positive stuff, and both exist. But I think the positive stuff is what needs to keep you driven and

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):

Well, with the negative stuff, what's good to hear are the lessons you learned. For instance, have ironclad paperwork,

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):

Ironclad paperwork, and even if that doesn't work, it's about a relationship with your artists knowing that guys I know because everyone says, oh, Erik, we would never do what such and such did to you. And then I go, okay, let's see about that. Sure enough, the same thing happens. And they go, well, I don't know what you want me to do. My hands are tied. And you go, okay, just remember that time. You're like, I'd never do that to you, and here it goes. And so really you have to take things into perspective and really establish your relationship also knowing that an artist is going to do what's best for them, so you have to do what's best for you. But I like to do what's best for the artists too. And I learned the hard way how you can get burned, but I never wanted to let it affect my relationships with artists. And

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):

That's really, really smart because you never know what's going to come up down the road.

Speaker 3 (01:25:01):

Exactly. And it's nice to know, it's some of these artists where they're like, we made a huge mistake. We should have done it with you, blah, blah, blah. And it's really nice to hear, but at the end of the day, this is a business, the bigger the label, the tougher the interests become, and people's mortgages are on the line and the pressure gets bigger and you have to, I'm a producer that has a big chip on my shoulder, as many victories as I've had, I've had losses too. And I try to take it with me as long as it doesn't knock me over, and I have this chip on my shoulder and I had this edge about me and this passion. And I really try not to let anyone fuck with that because it's just life gets in the way. It

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):

Certainly does. And I really, really admire your mentality of trying to stick to the positive and keeping relationships good despite business getting in the way of that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):

Absolutely. And I can't take soul credit for that too. I have an amazing team. I have two managers by the name of Daniel Rubin and Seth Cummings, and I can really confide in them when I have a case of the fuck its, and I'm like, you know what? Let's burn this bridge. And they're just like, no, no, Erik, come on. As I feel I am an emotional person. I am. You're

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):

Still human.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):

I'm a songwriter. I'm an artist. Sometimes I want to say some things I regret. And my mentality has always been lead by example. And so I've always, I don't start beef with anyone on the internet. I keep my nose clean and I just try to maintain my relationships. But every once in a while you get tested. And I really have to thank Daniel and Seth for helping me stick to the plan.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):

Yeah, yeah. Don't give in to those base instincts to just fly off the handle and fuck it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):

And I never really look at YouTube columns, but every once in a while I'll catch one that's like, this song's good mix sucks. And I'm just like, oh, okay. Oh, what do I do? I never respond. I walk away. But I think any producer that's listening to been like, oh man, I kind of wanted to let that guy have it. And some people do. I do know a few producers who just can't let it go. It's hard,

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):

Man, because I don't know, there's a certain way that these comments sting because they're not right in front of you, so you can't, I think it's the feeling of powerlessness to do anything about it when they're so off the mark. So I totally understand. And some of them are just downright savage. Yeah, they are. I mean, yeah, they're hurtful. I think it's best to try not to read those.

Speaker 3 (01:27:54):

Yeah, I

Speaker 2 (01:27:56):

Think it's best.

Speaker 3 (01:27:57):

I've got one guy, I'm pretty sure it's the same guy, but I feel like everything that's ever been put out under my name is a comet that says vocals are too loud. And it just makes me laugh. And one time I thought to myself, you know what? Maybe the vocals are too loud. And then I kind of woke up went, fuck that. All my training, everything I've been through, that's my number one priority is the vocals. So if you are probably not a singer, and that's it. And I get that, and I joke about it with some people like, oh yeah, this mix is going to be vocal down because that guy on YouTube says, my vocals are too loud

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):

That guy on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):

And so that's the least of my concerns though, is everyone's entitled to their opinion. Music is so subjective, and so there really is no correct way to do it. There's some incorrect ways to do things, but it's so subjective.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):

But still, there's a reason for why some celebrities will say that they never, ever read their own Twitters or look at comments on YouTube or whatever because they want to have a good day. Absolutely. And they're just people too with feelings, and they'll get their feelings hurt and it'll ruin their day

Speaker 3 (01:29:15):

For sure. But you know what? There's some really good stories too. For instance, there's a band that came in with me in 2013 right after I built my studio in North Hollywood here. So I graduated from Ship Box one into Ship Box two, then I built a real studio, and that's where I am currently doing this wonderful podcast in And you're in Shitbox too? No, no. This is just Gray Area Studios. Now, this is not Shitbox. And really what, there was a band that came in and let's call it a development gig, let's call it that. But I liked the singer's voice, and as soon as they came in and we started Pre-Pro and I heard the singer sing in front of my mic chain in front of my speakers, the hair stood up on my arms. And I went, guys, everyone come in. And I sat 'em down and I said, we have a lot more than just doing a few songs here.

(01:30:16):

We have to delve into this more. And so I ended up developing it. I ended up helping 'em get their manager, which is actually also my manager. And because their favorite bands were I The Mighty and Hans Houses, who he both managed and I both worked. It was just like this perfect storm. And the band ended up, they're called Too Close to Touch. They're actually in the studio with me now. That's the record I'm currently working on. And so it's a really nice story to help get something signed and help create a bidding war. And I rehearsed 'em and I made them cry because the rehearsal was so fucking bad. And I made them come into the studio and fix it, and I wouldn't let 'em leave until they learned their parts. And it was like, they call me dad. And I really do feel like that with them is I've been a part of all their records and helping write the songs at them and shaping the sound. And that's really one of the most special parts of what I like to do, which is really feeling like a team member, not just a guy who does a record. And we don't keep in touch. We become family. When you come to la, if you don't come here and party with me, we got a fucking problem that close.

(01:31:29):

And so I like to keep, and my studio is called Gray Area Studios, and I like to keep in touch with everyone and my bands tour together, and I really try to create a culture that's more than just the daily job that you have. And sometimes the downside is if there is some kind of difference, they're falling out. It sucks. You lose a family member. But that's the risk that I'm personally willing to take because I'm so passionate about what I do and the art that I want to help create and put into this world that to me, it's worth it. And I did the same thing with a few bands, including one that I'm really, really proud of called Seiler, which is really a record that a lot of people talk to me about. And it's really been kind of a genre defining album because we wanted to combine urban and hard rock into this kind of Drake meet Slipknot thing. And it's not quite slipknot, but those are the extreme. And it's not quite Drake. It's the extremes we want it to go. And so that's really been the mentality for me. It's not just making a record, but making a product that nine months down the road, we call each other and we're like, I still get chills to this day.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):

So let's talk a little bit about how you actually go about creating this family vibe at your studio. Sure.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):

It usually involves whiskey. And teasing my dog and teasing my dog by making him drink all the whiskey. Just kidding. Oh, I would never do that. I would never do that. But I think as soon as they come in, it's funny, the band I'm in with right now, too close to touch, they like to remind me about the first time they met me in person is I said, well, let's get this out of the way. And I went down on my knees and I yelled into one of the band members', crotches. I yelled their name, I call it a dick yell. And this actually started from Lou, the singer of Palisades. He did it to me once, and we just called it the Dick Yell after that. And that's the first thing thing where you dick yell. Yeah, you never go B yell. It's there somewhere.

(01:33:37):

Sorry. Sorry. In advance, everyone. And it was breaking the ice, and I think we had a shot immediately after, and it was like, let's get to work. And automatically all their nerves just kind of loosened up. And I recommend every producer to have a studio dog. Not every dog's meant to be in the studio, but I'll tell you, it's a very good icebreaker to kind of two strangers coming in, supposed to create this next big thing. It's a pretty uncomfortable situation if you're not used to it. It's kind of like having a bunch of first dates, but you have to have a child right away.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Speaker 3 (01:34:17):

And so you pet a furry dog, you have a little shot. That's kind of how my first dates go too. So including with the Dick Yell, including I yell into Dicks, into the Lady Dicks,

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):

I concur about the studio dog. I have one. And the bands love her.

Speaker 3 (01:34:40):

It really softens up even the toughest assholes, except one label prick that came in recently who shushed my dog away. I kind wanted to crack a frying pan over his head. But you know what? He'll get his one day,

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):

Man, you know what? People who don't like dogs weird me out.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):

You can be a cat person, but if you specifically don't like dogs, and I got to say it's maybe happened twice in the hundreds and hundreds of people that have been into the studio, most people melt as soon as they see my dog. It's usually what's like this sound.

Speaker 2 (01:35:18):

But the ones who actually don't like them, it's like, what is wrong with you? How do you not like them?

Speaker 3 (01:35:26):

Yeah, I totally agree. And so it starts with that, and then we get down to the nitty gritty and we get down to what my vision is versus your vision. And we hope to match our visions. That's the goal, right? It is like, Hey, I know you guys do this sound, kind of what I hear. Is it going a little bit like this? And then someone's like, I mean, typically if we're making an album or something, we've already kind of had this conversation. If they're like, no, no, I wouldn't do that at all, then what are we doing here? So it's kind of a combination of breaking the ice and just starting to line up the vision. I think you have to know where you want to go.

Speaker 2 (01:36:10):

Absolutely. And then over time, how do you keep the vibe consistent? Once you're in the guts of making an album, there's always the tendency to maybe have everything become routine or for things to get stressful or any number of things. Definitely. How do you keep it family vibe and cool the whole way?

Speaker 3 (01:36:34):

Well, I think it's important to create an environment where you can be open and honest and also really get their trust, because if they don't trust your opinion, it's doomed to fail.

Speaker 2 (01:36:46):

And how do you suggest doing that?

Speaker 3 (01:36:49):

Boy, that honestly is a little bit more instinctual than I can pinpoint into something. Maybe it's my tone of voice. Maybe it's the passion I have when I say it, but it's like I give an opinion and people have been pretty keen to it, and it doesn't always happen, but I think it's about giving some advice that someone wants to hear and that someone is in a position to hear. I co-wrote with a band just, and I blame management, but they just weren't ready to write with anyone. It was like the singer was actually offended that I even had an idea. He was just like, what are you doing? I write the lyrics. I'm just like, well, you're here to co-write. And they're just like, well, I got it. It's fine. It was like, oh, okay. What? We had a big way. And what's funny is him and I have actually written a lot of songs since they just didn't know what to expect. And he's a dear friend of mine. The band is called The Color Morale, and it's so funny. The next record, he spent so much time apologizing about it. I'm like, dude, it's totally fine. Oh, the Color Morale. I know that kid from the internet. Yeah, Garrett.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):

Yeah. And he's a dear friend of mine, and so I don't want anyone to perceive that as trash talking. It's just a situation where he wasn't prepared, and I think they just weren't ready to do that. And that happens. But I learned from that to try to have that conversation early. Like, Hey guys, this is what to expect, otherwise you're not ready, and let's do it another time. Or let's not do it at all. But we ended up writing four songs together on their next record, and I love those guys. And I think setting up the chance to actually be heard is very important.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):

I completely agree. So how does this lead to bands like Attila and stuff? How does this all lead to the Erik Ron that people now know about?

Speaker 3 (01:38:53):

So working with the signed bands, it was really about the relationships I had with other bands, touring with bands, and talking about their experiences, because I've heard there's been a bunch of horror stories. And not Attila specifically at all, just in general, I think I hear a lot about bad recording experiences, and I take every one of those conversations and I learn something from, and I try to not do that the most I can. So when I worked with Atila, it was, and for the record, I said, no till at first, because I'm a melody guy, and if there's no singing, I don't really know where I fit in. And I just didn't feel like I was the best guy for this album. And then it was funny, I was working with Tyler Carter at the time who couldn't be more opposite. We were working on some r and b stuff, and I was like, Hey, you know what?

(01:39:53):

I just kind of got offered. And I said, no, it was the util record. And he literally turned to me and said, why you should totally do that. And I was like, what? I just didn't expect that from him. And he was like, dude, they're the best dudes. You're going to love it. Just do it. And they got me thinking like, oh, fuck, did I just make a mistake? And so I talked to my management about it. They're like, no, you should totally do it. At least have a conversation. And so I got on the phone with Franz, and it totally made sense for where they wanted to go to have me involved in it. And so I was like, you know what? Let's fucking do this. I'm ready. I'm ready. And so that's where they were really, really excited by the Seiler stuff that I did. And so that's kind of what got, and Jayden, the singer of Seiler, he filled in for Atilla on a tour because Franz was having a kid. And so that had to have helped. And so it's really, once you start working with bands, it's really word of mouth. I don't advertise. I don't sponsor posts. I don't put out ads. You can't really even find much about me on the internet. All I put is what I've done because that's really all that matters.

Speaker 2 (01:41:09):

I kind of agree once you're at a certain point, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):

And so I think doing the Icy Stars and the Attilas and the issues is really just about someone really, really just backing you and being like, dude, you guys got to try Erik. This guy knows what's happening.

Speaker 2 (01:41:27):

And this is 15 years in the making too.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):

Totally. This is not an overnight thing. I've heard a few people say like, man, I just keep hearing this guy. He came out of nowhere, and I'm just laughing like, bro, look, if this is nowhere, I don't really want to know.

Speaker 2 (01:41:44):

Well, it's funny because I only heard about you in the past year, and I didn't know anything about you. I just knew that you were doing these bands and was like, okay, so I guess Erik, Ron is the new kid on the scene, but I didn't know your history and I didn't realize until now just how deep your history goes. So it lends a lot more credibility to what you're doing, and you're not just the new kid on the scene. This is long time in the making. You worked your way step by step to what you're doing right now.

Speaker 3 (01:42:24):

I did. And you know what? I did it one piece of gear at a time, one album. I'm really bad at everything in life, except this is the only thing that makes sense to me. I can't paint, I can't hang a TV on a wall. I can't do many things that I wish I could do. But the one thing that makes sense to me is music. And even just the music business. I think another thing that separates me a little bit from other producers is I know the marketing side. I know the legal terms. I know there's a lot of producers who probably can't even tell you what a mechanical royalty is. And I just tried to just be educated because I had a lawyer early on who was actually Incubus, his lawyer, and he just flat out would be like, you're an idiot. Why do you even think that?

(01:43:17):

He just made me feel so dumb. So shout out to Todd Cooper for making me feel like I need to get educated, because then I did. And I feel like that really helps me because I create a product that I actually, I know what happens to it. I know the channels. I know the people it goes through. I actually know what it takes to get it there. And so that's the part I'm the most proud of too. It's not just making it, it's about how you can help after if there's any role for you. Well, I mean

Speaker 2 (01:43:48):

The industry that you work in

Speaker 3 (01:43:50):

Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:43:51):

Not just your job in it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:53):

Exactly. And I'm lucky enough, I take a meeting with Kevin Lyman, who's the owner of Warp Tour. I take a meeting with him every year and I get to tell him about bands that I worked on, bands that I'm really excited about, and I feel like it's a rare relationship that I really cherish. And it's just something, and it's just good to know what's happening out there because I can help map things. And I don't sit back and wait for bands to hit me up If I want something, I go out and I check it out. And my management day back before things kind of were really working in my favor. It was like we had spreadsheets of bands that I wanted to approach and reach out to. I couldn't tell you how many times I reached out wanting to do an issues record. I really felt like that was the one album when that first record came out, it was like, I'm meant to be involved in this. It's r and b, it's pop, it's Rock, it's back of the Beat. I feel like I can really help do something with this. And I got a lot of unanswered emails about it first. And then when it actually came to happen, it was really, really special to me. And now we're dear friends and I hope we get to work on more issues material together. I mean, that would be amazing. And if it doesn't, I'm super proud of what we did. How long,

Speaker 2 (01:45:13):

Just out of curiosity, how long did you try and get rejected for?

Speaker 3 (01:45:17):

I've been rejected on a lot of records that I reached out for, but issues, I mean, it was probably a year, a year and a half process of just putting it out there with Rise, putting it out there with management. I wanted to work with the band, so I worked with another artist that the manager had because I just wanted to be in the circle. And so it's really about taking it step by step and wanting to be in front of the artists that I really were passionate about. I want to do music I love. If you don't do music you love, you shouldn't do it. I completely

Speaker 2 (01:45:57):

Agree. And I think it's one thing I want to take a second to define the difference between being persistent and being an annoying punisher.

Speaker 3 (01:46:08):

Oh, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:46:09):

Well, because I've also done the same things where I've remained persistent on certain things and been turned down, pin turned down, no, now's not a good time. Not a good time until finally it came through and it was great. But I've seen a lot of other people screw it up by being over persistent and basically losing any chance of getting the gig ever. So I feel like

Speaker 3 (01:46:39):

There's a fine line. Totally. There's definitely that line. Sometimes you're not the one that draws it. I think it's someone else who makes up their mind, whether you're a punisher or you're just persistent. I won't mention the band, but I've been wanting to work with them since they were fairly small and they went very big very quickly. And I don't think the manager likes me very much. I think that they consider me a punisher, where other moments, it's just persistent and waiting it out and just trying to show people that you're doing stuff. And now I think it'd be pretty hard for them not to notice. But you never know. There's people I really want to work with that have no idea I exist. And actually, because I have a publishing deal, for those who dunno what a publishing deal is, is that I'm a songwriter and I write songs to go on albums and there's someone who helps administer that and set it up. And that's what a publishing deal is. And so I also want to delve into writing pop music. And no matter what I do in the rock world, pop doesn't give a shit. They don't care if you sold 200,000 records. That sounds amazing. But if they don't know who the artist is, they don't care. They don't know what emotionless and white is. They don't care.

(01:47:56):

And so it's like I'm speaking a different language, and so well, it's a different world. It's a totally different world. And so all I can do is hope to get in the room and change people's minds. And so I like to be persistent about that. I'm here, let's do some work. You could say you won't regret it, but eventually you got to sit back and let someone make up their mind.

Speaker 2 (01:48:17):

Yeah, I completely agree.

Speaker 3 (01:48:18):

But I think early on, I would consider myself incredibly persistent, borderline punishing. And I'm sure there was someone who's listening to this who would be like, oh yeah, I remember those days where I wanted to just get my name out there and you got to do it. And you just try to put yourself in the other person's shoes to know if you're going a little too far.

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):

Yeah. I guess that one thing I would do was I would allow enough space, enough time in between communications so that it wouldn't appear like I was freaking out or something.

Speaker 3 (01:48:58):

Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:48:59):

Or so I would at least allow 10 days, for instance.

Speaker 3 (01:49:02):

Totally. And honestly, I have some advice for bands too, because what happens is a lot of bands hit me up on Facebook Messenger, which is not the most ideal way to do it. And they'll just kind of say, Hey, how much? And I'm like, hello, how much for what they're like this or that? And I go, okay, well, the proper channel is why don't email my manager at this. We'll get it going, see if it works out. And they'll email him and kind of say, Hey, we want to work with Erik how much? And they'll be like, well, what's your project? What are you doing? And then they don't respond after that. It's like people don't really have a game plan after the initial contact. And so if there's bands who are looking to record with producers you admire, or whoever it may be, have a plan.

(01:49:51):

Let people know what you're doing and don't email 'em every three days. Because some people also follow up with me every three days. And it's like sometimes you got to find the balance between taking a hint and being persistent. And so, trust me, it happens to me too. And there's someone I want to work with. There was a girl, actually, this is a pretty funny story. There's a girl who does YouTube covers of bands that I've produced and songs I've written, and her voice is so amazing. It's incredible. I've hit her up, I dunno, 20 times over the last six years, and she just doesn't want to work with me. She just doesn't want to. I even offered a flyer out here, work on some stuff, and she just gives me the cold shoulder. And I'm just like, are you kidding? Has she ever responded? Yeah, she has responded. And a very, leave me the fuck alone. I'm good. And it blows my mind, but it is what it is. You can't take it personal or you could bury your head in the sand and not recover. But it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:50:57):

She's just not feeling the Ron.

Speaker 3 (01:50:59):

She is not interested in doing originals with me. Oh, best of luck to her. I got no bad blood. I am still waiting for the date. She goes, you know what? Let's fucking try it. And I'm like, nah, not interested anymore. Just kidding. I try not to be too spiteful with stuff like that. It does happen where you get turned down and they come back and you're like, huh, I'm going to enjoy this one.

Speaker 2 (01:51:22):

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely experienced that too. So Erik, we have some questions from our audience for you.

Speaker 3 (01:51:30):

Oh, awesome. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:51:32):

Here's the first one from Ashley Maciel, which is how do you approach writing music with bands? Set it off. They're one of my favorite bands, but I try to write a song like Their Style without heavy guitar riffs and all that, and I fail miserably. Ha.

Speaker 3 (01:51:51):

Well, I bet you it's not as bad as you think it is. You're probably being your own worst critic. But I mean, I think a song in general, for me, it's always about the vocal melody first. A lot of times I can't tell you how many songs I've written in my shower just from kind of thinking of a melody. And I'll have to run out and do a voice memo and come back in and my entire floor is soaked and I might've slipped and cracked my head open. I don't know, maybe that's the secret to it is cracking. Nope, please don't do that. But I think it's about the melody first, and then you kind of weigh the production, write a song that has no guitar in it, but we'll do it on acoustic first because if it doesn't live naked and bear on its own strong, you're just kind of polishing a turd. And so I think with writing stuff that isn't necessarily heavy, it really shouldn't be that big of a difference. I think you just have to find the elements that wrap around your melody the best.

Speaker 2 (01:52:53):

Alright, here's one from Erik Flam Flop Howell, which is, what are some tips for fitting electronic and hip hop elements into heavy songs like Slar and issues?

Speaker 3 (01:53:05):

I think the balance is because those hip hop samples are just, they sound so crisp and clear and hot and pumpy. It's just really, sometimes you have to take away a little bit of the low end on those. So your rock stuff doesn't sound pussy. And it's definitely something that can happen if you're not careful. And so I try to make the electronics quieter first and I'll loop. So when I'm mixing, I'll loop half of a rock section into half of an electronic or programmed part until the transition seems very natural and you can't tell. And so I think it's the transitions that can be the most ear popping or like, oh, because my biggest problem with kind of music that was out in 2010, 2011 when EDM and dubstep was into the fold of hard rock and metal core was that it felt like it was one or the other.

(01:54:09):

Insert Insert part here. Insert part here. And I've always wanted to try to make them hybrid and integrated and seamless. And so even on the slaves record that's about to drop, I can't say when, but it's very much like a trap record meets r and b with some guitars on it. And I wanted it to not feel like one or the other. That's how the silo record feels to me, is that we wanted to do it at the same time and not insert dance part for eight seconds. To me, I was never a fan of that

Speaker 2 (01:54:44):

To where it is all part of the DNA of the sound.

Speaker 3 (01:54:48):

Exactly. So that there's, even if there's everything programmed, there's at least one ambient real guitar in there that goes with it, because not everyone. So that way, everyone on stage just not sitting there with their thumbs up their asses, everyone's doing something, it feels integrated. Even that one real guitar makes the other parts feel less out of nowhere. Good

Speaker 2 (01:55:09):

Answer. So Colton, David Hunters asking, how did you approach recording a band like this Wildlife that's all acoustic? Did you record? Oh, that one was fun. Cool. He said, did you record the guitars differently considering they're meant to be a focal point in the mix.

Speaker 3 (01:55:26):

Well, acoustic wise, I did record it different than I normally do. I very rarely get to do acoustics now, but I have a lot of experience with it over the years of stuff I've done with all the stuff I kind of mentioned earlier. So it's not foreign to me. I was very, very accustomed to it and I wanted to involve, because I have a big live room and I wanted to actually involve that in the sound. So instead of putting the acoustic in the iso booth or in the vocal booth, I had 'em out in the room and I put some gobos around and I tried to make it so where there's a one distant mic and one close mic and one over the shoulder. And so we blended some things together to kind of create a sound that wasn't just, it had a little bit of space to it, which is what I like about it is it has a little breathing room, not to mention, and I got to give a lot of credit to Anthony and Kevin, but they know how to play their acoustics.

(01:56:19):

Acoustic is the hardest instrument to record. I did an unplugged, a re-imagined with Han like houses, and we had a miserable time recording the acoustics. You can ask Al, it's like all this buzzing and I'm very anal about guitar acoustic buzzing. I think it sounds terrible. And we just hated each other. If you're not really used to it, and I don't mean play once in a while, Kevin from this wildlife is a pro at playing acoustic. That shit didn't buzz. He knew because that's what he does, that's his instrument. And so that was a big help. And then everything else was pretty straightforward. I mean, it really was just about peeling it back and I have a lot of experience with recording some more peeled back stuff. It just kind of involved getting back into the swing of it. Alright.

Speaker 2 (01:57:08):

Rodney Aden Ball was wondering how was it working with the guys from Young Guns? I've seen that they go about doing their own pre-pro and I believe the guitarist is doing all the heavy lifting with that side. Does it help having a band coming in that's prepared and make things move even more smoothly? What advice can you give other bands wanting to do their own pre-production before entering the studio?

Speaker 3 (01:57:34):

Well, working with Young Guns was awesome. They're great dudes. We actually started one of the songs from Scratch, so there wasn't any pre-pro in, and then the other song we did together that made the record, we did three songs and two of them made the record. And one of them, John, who's the guitarist, had this kind of sim thing and this guitar thing, but nothing really in between. And so it was really just about taking the foundation and building off of it. And so we created, we did most of the song here, but there was a song start, which is nice. I don't always do that. Typically when I co-write with a band is we start from scratch. And so my advice for bands that kind of do have their prepro is just be open to changing it. Because a lot of times if you spend half a day programming this part and then I shit on it, I'm like, I don't think it's very good. I think we could beat it. You're going to be resentful of me. So you have to go in. I think you should still do it because it really can benefit your vision of what you wanted the song to be. But I would just recommend to be very open-minded and not feeling like, oh, we have to use it. I spent all this time on it. It's really about our visions matching as opposed to who put in what groundwork first.

Speaker 2 (01:58:58):

I see. All right. Here is one from Nar Magnusson. He's actually got two, which is do you feel that you have a consistent approach to writing or does it change depending on who you're writing with? And I'll ask you his second question later.

Speaker 3 (01:59:15):

Sure. I think the formula is very similar, which is actually get to know what your artist sounds like. I feel like that's something that people tell me all the time is that they just didn't even really know what the artist sounded like or they had a preconceived notion is I try to study the band before we even start. So I already know the vocal range that the singer's in because there's nothing worse. I see this all the time, especially with female fronted acts, is that a female range is so different than a male range. And so if you have this cool melody idea and it's in a dude's range and then you want them to sing it, you're just wasting time because it's so different. It's like when it's uncomfortable as a male singer, it's probably comfortable for a female voice or some high pitched singers.

(02:00:07):

And so I recommend really listening to their previous material, knowing how you want to do it different, maybe what your spin would be to it. And then seeing the right range and the right tuning. Just be educated bands really, really appreciate when you actually know what tuning they play in or what the singer's key is. Or I think some producers will just be like, I think it just sound like this, and you just play it and it's like, well, I don't really care what you wanted. And I try not to approach that. I try to be a member of the project.

Speaker 2 (02:00:42):

So Nar Magnusson is wondering also, what are your favorite ways to deal with writer's? Block

Speaker 3 (02:00:49):

Alcohol? No. Writer's block is an interesting thing for anyone because it can just be you don't have an idea at the time or you just don't feel like it's good enough and you question yourself. But for me, as I try to create an atmosphere that feels creative, that's why I painted my walls this gray color in my studio and I have these lights and I have candles lit right now just for this podcast. I want it to feel comfortable. I have a candle, a break glass in case of emergency candle, and it's my favorite candle on the planet, and they stopped making it a few years ago. So I only have one of these left, and so I'll light it for 10 minutes and it makes me inspired. It really channels something for me. And it's an interesting job because you're required to be creative all the time. I don't get to be like, guys, this is a co-write, but I got nothing. My bad. You got to give it to 'em and they're depending on you. And so I try to put it out there that writer's block just isn't an option.

Speaker 2 (02:02:04):

Fair enough. And here's one from Sean and it's got a few, so I'm going to just answer. I'm just going to ask you the one that I feel like we haven't already covered, which is what's the worst case scenario you've been handed and how did you salvage it?

Speaker 3 (02:02:26):

How do we narrow that in to something more specific? What's the worst case scenario? How did I take lemons and make lemonade?

Speaker 2 (02:02:36):

Yeah,

Speaker 3 (02:02:39):

That's a really hard question. That's the hardest question I think I've ever had in anything. Let me wrap my head around it. I mean, I could give a few examples. I mean, there's situations where there was a plan set and the plan changes a little bit. And you have to try to do the best without being resentful and without being angry at the artist. And I think that can be a very tough thing is taking something that's happening and not making it personal. And it is personal to me. It's like, you didn't like what I did? That means you don't like me. That means that I'm not good at anything and the wall's closing. But then I take my 10 minutes of bitching and whining and I man up and I say, how can I make the most of this situation? And so it's like, I think one of the toughest things for me personally is when I lose a mixing gig for a record I produced, because I take great pride in finishing something I started, and sometimes there's a record that I can't listen to because I think the mix is so fucking bad that I think it ruined my vision.

(02:03:51):

And I have to deal with that. And I'll never say what it is because it's not, at the end of the day, the artist has to really love it, and that doesn't necessarily line up with what you had planned for it. And sometimes there's victories, sometimes you lose something and they want yours back, and then you're like, yeah. And that's right. And it just happens and you just have to kind of take it day by day and case by case. And you hope that the loyalty you've shown gets returned back to you.

Speaker 2 (02:04:23):

I completely agree. Well, Erik, it's been awesome having you on the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I can't believe that it's been

Speaker 3 (02:04:34):

This, I mean, it flew by. I feel like we just had a cup of coffee.

Speaker 2 (02:04:37):

Yeah, man. And I'm sure that we could do a part two and talk for a couple hours then as well.

Speaker 3 (02:04:43):

Well, I'm happy to. I had a lot of fun and I'm honored to be asked to do this. And anyone listening, please feel free to hit me up and ask questions. I'm happy to talk about my life and my story. And the good news is I feel like I'm just beginning. I'm in it for a while until the caffeine kills me eventually. But I'm here. Well, thanks for being here. Alright, thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:05:05):

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