PER NILSSON: Crafting Guitar Solos, True Temperament Frets, and The Ethics of Auto-Tune

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, brought to you by Creative Live, the world's best online classroom for creative professionals with classes on songwriting, engineering, mixing and mastering. The Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast is also brought to you by Ernie Ball, the world's premier manufacturer of guitar strings, bass strings, and guitar accessories. And now your hosts, Joey Sturgis, Joel Wanasek, and Eyal Levi.

Speaker 2 (00:24):

Welcome to another episode of the Joey Sturgis Forum podcast. Today we have a really cool guy who plays guitar. It's guitar month. And is this another Swedish person?

Speaker 3 (00:36):

Yeah. What do you know? What a surprise. They're good at music.

Speaker 2 (00:39):

I like Swedish people.

Speaker 3 (00:41):

Yeah, man. You guys know what I think. I think there's something in the water.

Speaker 4 (00:46):

So we got what tips and tricks today

Speaker 3 (00:48):

With Mr. Perry Nelson, who in my opinion is like the Swedish, Jeff Loomis, one of the best lead guitar players to exist from the 2000 to current era. He's from the band Scar symmetry, and it's just ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:09):

So if we're talking about a crazy lead guitarist, there is a lot of discussion online, and I know you can comment on this, Joel. It's like a battle between noodling and wanky versus actual educated because my wife for 10 years, or educated content.

Speaker 4 (01:32):

Okay, well, here's the thing with Guitar Mind, my rant, because now you just open Pandora's fucking box. I'm a shredder. I was born and raised a shredder. As soon as I picked up a guitar, I wanted to be as technical as possible. A lot of people don't understand shred, and they're just like, oh, you're just jacking off and moving your fingers fast, and you're like, no, no, no, no, dude. It took years of 12 hours a day of concise, concerned effort to be able to play that fucking lick, but you wouldn't understand because you can't even fucking play faster than 10 BPM. So a lot of people just like the hammer on shred, but at the same time, anything, it's a style. Just like somebody who gets really good at blues guitar or somebody who gets really good at finger chicken picking country style guitar.

(02:17):

I mean, there's different genres of guitar and shred and technical stuff is one of them. And there's a lot of discipline and a lot of skill that goes into learning any of those genres. I mean, there's a lot of crossover. If you're good at one, you can probably pick up another one pretty quickly because a lot of the technique covers and traverses over, meaning if you know how to sweep, pick, you know how to sweep, pick if you know how to finger pick, how to finger pick is basically what I'm saying. And then it's just an issue of stylistically and creatively learning the genre. So a lot of people like to talk shit. It's guitar, and guitar is a very macho instrument. It's definitely like, oh, well fuck every guitar genre, but the one that I'm in, because jazz guys are sloppy, but shredders, they just jack off and they have no feel. And blues guys have no technique. You know what I mean? So there's crits of everything. So the point is there's a lot of amazing guitar out there and quit being dickheads guitar players.

Speaker 3 (03:09):

Yeah. Well, I feel like one of the most misunderstood things about shredding on guitar is the level of commitment required. I consider it.

Speaker 4 (03:21):

Oh my God. I could go, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:23):

Yeah. It's kind of like being an Olympic athlete on your instrument.

Speaker 4 (03:27):

I used to practice 12 hours a day, literally every fucking day to a metronome and just sit there and drill and drill and drill

Speaker 3 (03:34):

For

Speaker 4 (03:34):

Years. It's what it takes if you want to play that style.

Speaker 3 (03:37):

Yeah, I believe it because I kind of did the same thing for a little while as well. I feel like also in lots of ways, it's something that has been lost a bit in the current day. Now that seems counterintuitive. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (03:52):

The guitar player, now, let me echo that, are definitely not as good as they were when I was growing up. Did you hear guys like VE and Paul Gilbert and Jason Becker and Sean Lane, and these guys were doing their stuff live. VE recorded his first record in two days, and now it's all just punched him and cut together. And kids would be like, oh, that's sick. And I'm like, dude, he can't even fucking play it.

Speaker 2 (04:13):

No. Yeah. It takes so much talent and skill to actually be able to pull off the type of stuff that we're used to hearing. It took guys half of their whole fucking life to even get to that point, and now they just fake it. Yeah. Computers allow you to fake it and allow you to get there faster and look like a God and not actually be one.

Speaker 4 (04:36):

If you want to see a shrug guitar player, go watch Jason Becker at age 17. Go do his clinics and play like Renia or you know what I mean? And then go watch your favorite guitar hero on YouTube who is modern and listen to his cut and paste guitars and then smile and go watch Paul Gilbert in intense rock one or Sean Lane, or, I mean, there's some legit dudes now, like Rusty Cooley is fucking amazing.

Speaker 2 (04:58):

Well, it's going to be cool to bring on an actual good guitarist, somebody who is still capable of pulling off that kind of stuff and existing in the modern age, in the modern day in the limelight.

Speaker 4 (05:12):

Hey guys, get me all fired up.

Speaker 2 (05:14):

Let's bring him on. Let's talk to him. How do you say your name? And I'm sorry for asking because it's Swedes, it's Pat

Speaker 4 (05:23):

Par. Well, not too bad. I at least got the rolled r. I speak Russian, so it's probably not too far off.

Speaker 5 (05:32):

I think it's closest to a pair of something like pear.

Speaker 2 (05:36):

Like the fruit? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 (05:38):

Not the fruit, a pair of things.

Speaker 2 (05:43):

It's hard. Okay. Two.

Speaker 5 (05:44):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:45):

Well, thanks for coming on the show and talking with us. We're talking about guitars this month, and I think you are pretty knowledgeable on the subject, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 3 (05:56):

I've been listening to your playing for years and years, and I know that you record yourself, plus you balance that with being really good at guitar. So we just wanted to talk to you about your playing and how you developed it, how you get ready for the studio.

Speaker 5 (06:15):

Sure.

Speaker 3 (06:15):

So just out of curiosity, how long have you been playing?

Speaker 5 (06:20):

I've been playing for, I started playing 31 years ago.

Speaker 3 (06:24):

Wow. So you've been at it a little while.

Speaker 5 (06:26):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:28):

Jesus. That's

Speaker 5 (06:29):

Awesome.

Speaker 3 (06:29):

How many hours a day do you practice now as opposed to when you were first really getting into it?

Speaker 5 (06:37):

When I was in my late teens, when I practiced the most, I could practice all day long, more or less. I started playing the first thing I did in the morning. I played through the entire day. I mean, I even practiced when I ate, ate breakfast. I ate with one hand and did the exercises with the other hand. So I was really, really into it. But nowadays, for long periods of time, I barely play.

Speaker 3 (07:01):

What do you define as long periods of time?

Speaker 5 (07:03):

Weeks or a month?

Speaker 3 (07:04):

Wow.

Speaker 5 (07:05):

Depends. I mean, I play every now and then, but it's not like I play guitar for hours a day.

Speaker 3 (07:12):

Do you feel like there comes a point where you've played an instrument long enough to where you don't need to practice as much as you used to?

Speaker 5 (07:20):

Yeah, in a way, I guess. I mean, I don't have to keep practicing scales or the things that are knowledge doesn't disappear, but it's more like the motor skills get a little bit rusty if I don't play for a while, but it comes back pretty fast. And one reason why I don't play that much nowadays is because I had a period of, well, a little bit over four years when I didn't play guitar at all because I injured myself from practicing.

Speaker 3 (07:49):

Wow. I've done that too, Joel, didn't you do that too?

Speaker 4 (07:52):

Yes. Well, I got a combination of editing drums, so I have carpal tunnel in my right wrist, and after years of shredding guitar on my left side, I have a little bit of tendonitis. So as soon as I start firing up the sweep arpeggios and speed picking, my left arm starts burning. So I have to take it easy now. And I also don't have time because I literally live in the studio and have no time for anything else. So I really don't get to play guitar too much anymore. And it's unfortunate because when I was a kid, that was all I did. Oh,

Speaker 3 (08:21):

Same here. Actually, I feel like when I was maybe 19 or 20, I changed my focus from playing guitar to writing music, and it was because I hurt myself practicing too much, and I felt like I was physically limited. I couldn't achieve the technical level I wanted to because anytime I would start to get close, my injury would flare up. So one day I was just like, this is dumb. I'm going to be one of those guys that keeps on trying for something that's not physically possible because of this injury. What else can I do with music that will get a good result and decided to focus on writing? Because I think writing and playing are two completely different skills, which I'm sure that you guys will agree with on that. Absolutely,

Speaker 2 (09:11):

Yes. Are you still actively playing in a band right now or with any groups or anything?

Speaker 5 (09:20):

Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm active with Scar Symmetry, which is my main band, and also I'm in a band called Kapa. It's a progressive rock band. I do a lot of guest solos for bands. And

Speaker 3 (09:32):

So when you're working on a guest solo, how long does it normally take you to come up with one?

Speaker 5 (09:37):

I don't know, an hour or two?

Speaker 3 (09:38):

That's it. Damn.

Speaker 5 (09:40):

Yeah, it depends a little bit on what the solo part is. I did a solo for S Grossman from used to play with Obscura,

Speaker 3 (09:48):

The

Speaker 5 (09:49):

Drummer for his solo album. And that solo part was so weird because it was five completely different genres of music. So it was like 32 bars of something like Jazz Fusion.

Speaker 2 (10:00):

That's awesome.

Speaker 5 (10:01):

And another next part was something else, and that took quite a bit of thinking to get my head around.

Speaker 3 (10:08):

So when you have to tie together a bunch of different styles like that, is there any process you use for analyzing the music or for wrapping your head around it?

Speaker 5 (10:20):

The most important thing in a scenario like that is to make the transitions in between the different parts to make them sound smooth. So to help the music to not switch style in my playing when the background changes. So try to make it, it sounds like the solo is the same piece of music, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (10:40):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I actually think that that's one of the hardest things to do when writing a solo that and ending it. Well, yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:49):

Yeah, I agree. Para, before you came on, we were kind of talking a little bit about guitar players now, how a lot of league guitar is recorded, and I'm an old school shredder, and I've been playing 20 years, not 32, but I remember the eighties and the great guitar players like Paul Gilbert and Sean Lane and Jason Becker, and a lot of those solos were recorded without a lot of punchin. I mean, you can hear it. And now all these guitar players sit down and record their notes like midi, like I'll use Dragon Force as an example. It doesn't even sound human. It's kind of a shame because when I was learning how to play guitar, I actually had to learn how to play guitar. And now with digital editing, you can make crazy solos and not be able to play them. So how do you go about recording your guitar solos when you're recording them?

Speaker 5 (11:38):

Well, I don't edit stuff together note by note, that's for sure. But I do a lot of punchin and actually I write my solo at the same time when I record it, and usually the way I do it is I play the track over and over and I jam to it while recording, and if I end up playing something nice, I will stop the recording and see if I can use it. If it's played good enough, I'll keep it. If not, I'll try to play it one more time, but play it better. And usually I just keep phrase or something, and when I have something recorded, I start building from that. If I have an intro for the solo, the first lick, then I'll try to come up with the next lick. And a lot of it is just like it's improvised, even though I improvise like short bits and then edit stuff together.

Speaker 4 (12:28):

Yeah, that's awesome. I do it exactly the same way when writing solos. I like to take a section of music and loop it, then maybe get the first part and like you said, put it together and then go on to the next. And then after you have everything recorded, you try to make a smooth, cohesive solo that transitions and feels and a performance out of it. And it's very challenging, I think to record a solo and write it, especially when it's very technical.

Speaker 3 (12:57):

I think it's challenging, but I think that there's a huge payoff to writing and performing it at the same time, because that's when the idea is the most fresh. It'll never be as fresh as when you first wrote it. There's a lot of magic in lead guitar that I feel needs to be captured just like with vocals. It needs to be captured in order for the solo to truly capture the listener. So I think there's a huge benefit to practicing and getting good enough at guitar to where you can do that in the first place. I also think that something about solos that get worked on over a long period of time, sometimes they tend to lose their cohesion because if you work on say one part for one week and then the next part for another week and then don't think about it for a few weeks, then work on another part, there's a high likelihood that the parts will not fit together musically.

Speaker 5 (13:59):

I've

Speaker 3 (13:59):

Experienced this many, many times, so the best guitar players I've recorded tend to write the stuff right there on the spot.

Speaker 4 (14:06):

Yeah, definitely. I'll echo that.

Speaker 3 (14:08):

Do you need to warm up?

Speaker 5 (14:09):

No, I usually don't warm up that much if it's before a show or something. I play for a bit just to loosen up, but when I'm in the studio, I just start playing.

Speaker 3 (14:20):

One of the best musicians I ever met actually is a drummer who went to the same school I went to and dropped out. He's way older than me. He's like my dad's age. He started playing for Aretha Franklin actually, and then quit the music industry and started a grocery store. That's why I've never heard of him, but fucking amazing drummer, and he always said about practicing that he did enough practicing as a kid to where now all he has to do is visualize, so it no longer needs to practice. Now he can just visualize it and create it. I think it takes a really long time to get to that point anyways.

Speaker 5 (15:00):

But that's basically often what I do because when I had those four years, when I didn't play guitar at all, I still thought about music and anytime I heard a song on the radio, I sort of envisioned myself playing a solo on top of the music. I always have melodies and rhythms and stuff going on in my head for some reason. I don't know why

Speaker 2 (15:20):

We're all cursed with that.

Speaker 5 (15:22):

Yeah,

Speaker 4 (15:23):

I think that's a great point for guitar players, because I use myself as an example, I probably haven't gotten because I haven't played very much or practice, I probably haven't gotten technically any better, if not worse, because I'm rusty, but you never really lose your chops. But I've definitely in my lapse of guitar due to studio recording and running businesses, I've definitely gotten much better creatively on guitar and much better at songwriting because I'm always immersed in those different elements. So when I do pick up a guitar, it's much easier for me to write a solo in a different genre than I could have maybe 10 years ago when I practiced all day. But my exposure to different things was more limited because all I did is run scales and make sure that things were coming out cleanly and quickly.

Speaker 3 (16:09):

That's something huge. I don't want to get redundant here, but I think that's one of the best things you can possibly do to develop your lead guitar playing or your writing skills is develop the mental game. I've seen it over and over again. For instance, one of my roommates when I was back in school was one of the most talented people I've ever met, one of the best musicians I've ever met, and he never practiced ever. I would ask him, how do you possibly learn music so fast? He could learn stuff on the spot, perform it on the spot, record it on the spot. It's like, how do you do this? What is going on? Are you sneaking in practice when we're not looking or something? I said, no, all I have to do is think about it. If you actually try to hear it and then envision yourself playing it while you're hearing it, it's as good as practicing it in real life. So I took that lesson and I went and I talked to some classical soloists that I knew through my dad who would have to learn a 45 minute Beethoven piece and play it in front of a crowd of 3000 people in an orchestra, and they would say the same thing. The way that you really know that a piece is, if you can imagine yourself playing it from start to finish and not fuck up.

Speaker 2 (17:34):

Yes. Yeah. I guess in order to be able to imagine every single part being played, then you have to know exactly how the part goes and how to play it. And so if you get to a point in the imagination of where you're like, I'm not sure what's being played here, then of course that's where you're going to fuck up.

Speaker 3 (17:51):

But it doesn't seem that simple in real life. It's one of those super simple things about mastering an instrument that I think almost anybody can do, but they don't do it because it's easy to get caught up in the actual physical act of playing and hearing yourself and getting tripped up by your own insecurities on the instrument. But if you can actually close your eyes and see yourself playing everything and hear it in your head and feel it, you'll do a better job.

Speaker 2 (18:26):

I kind of wanted to talk about recording guitar because I had an interesting thought, and this doesn't really come from any of our viewer questions, at least I don't think it does. But I would imagine that someone who doesn't totally understand guitar, especially when it comes to lead guitar, they probably would have a little bit of problem recording it and properly producing it. So I guess the question is, what is it that you can do if you're someone who doesn't quite understand solo guitar and intricate parts, what is it that someone can do to record that and to properly produce it? Because I'm thinking you might hear something that a lead guitar player plays, and it might be this amazing thing to your ears, but if you don't really understand what's actually going on in the piece, there could be several issues with it. There could be several parts that don't make sense, transitions that are weird, notes that aren't in the key, things like that. I wonder if there's any advice we could give to people who are lost when it comes to doing that.

Speaker 3 (19:31):

Well, if you don't understand the instrument, like say a non guitar player or someone who's not very good at guitar, is there any advice you would give them on being able to achieve stuff that's far beyond their level?

Speaker 2 (19:49):

If you are in the scenario, like let's say you're in the studio today and you're recording this crazy solo that you wrote, but the producer has no clue what you're doing, he doesn't understand the part, he's not a guitar player. What would you want him to do to put you in the flow state of being able to accomplish the part you want to get the part perfectly performed and you want to get it done? What can that person do for you to make it easier to get it to happen?

Speaker 5 (20:17):

He could go and put on a cup of coffee for me and move away from the producer's share.

Speaker 3 (20:27):

I was just thinking the same thing. It was probably just get out of the way. Well,

Speaker 4 (20:31):

Let me approach this from a different angle. As a producer, I think it's important to learn the fundamentals of every instrument. I don't play drums, but I can write drums and I understand them, and I know what all the techniques are called. So if you don't know how to play guitar, especially league guitar, it's probably worth it to look up some basic instructional videos. You don't need to play the instrument, you just need to watch somebody do it, right? For example, what is sweep picking? How to sweep, pick what is alternate picking, how to alternate, pick what's palm muting fret tapping, and just watch a few people perform those techniques. Get it in your ear what it sounds like by listening to a master of the instrument and then listen to some really bad people attempt it and then compare the differences, and then you'll at least have a basic understanding.

Speaker 3 (21:17):

Yeah, we want to check out a really great instructional video. Actually, Paris got one

Speaker 5 (21:21):

That

Speaker 3 (21:22):

You sent me, which is phenomenal.

Speaker 5 (21:24):

Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (21:25):

I actually agree with what Joel said, the league guitar player in my band, who's one of the best guitar players as well in the genre.

Speaker 5 (21:36):

Yeah, I love Amil,

Speaker 3 (21:37):

Dude. He's so good. It's scary how good he is, but one of the things that he always told me that he did was go on YouTube and look up his favorite guitar players and pay attention to how they hold the guitar and what they're physically doing when they create a certain kind of part. If you want to sound like Zach Wild when you're doing vibrato, then take a look at how Zach Wild actually holds the guitar when he's getting that. Sorry, when he's getting that wild vibrato, it's not, yeah, no pun intended. It's not coming from sitting down properly with the guitar. It's coming because of the way that he anchors his leg on the monitor, the way that he holds the guitar up to give himself as much leverage as possible on the instrument. So by actually analyzing how some of these great guys produce their techniques or their tones, you'll skip a lot of the fucking around in the practice room to try to get to a result. You'll save yourself a lot of time. I know that Amel plays a lot of guitar, but he hates practicing. That's one of the ways he got around having to figure everything out from the start.

Speaker 2 (23:01):

One of the things that we talk about on this show a lot is how the guitar itself as an instrument is usually and still largely a terrible design because they don't stay in tune, they warp, et cetera, et cetera. I'm just curious, you do have a signature guitar, right?

Speaker 5 (23:23):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:23):

That you just built with Strandberg?

Speaker 5 (23:25):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:26):

So I'm curious, was there any specific design elements or anything that you went over when you approached the build?

Speaker 5 (23:34):

Yeah, I wanted the true temperament fretboard, which you might have heard of.

Speaker 2 (23:38):

Yeah, yeah. So let's say someone who's never heard of a true temperament fretboard, explain that to them.

Speaker 5 (23:43):

It's a way to compensate for some of the flaws in the guitar design. I guess what the flaw is that the positioning of the frets on a fretboard is like a theoretical construction. You split Octa in 12 notes and then you put the frets accordingly, but that doesn't work because you have to compensate for the thickness of the strings and the action of the strings, and if the strings are wound or plain. So true temperament is a way to compensate for that, which makes the frets all squiggly wiggly.

Speaker 3 (24:16):

I remember seeing when Steve came out with his years ago and just thinking that it was insane. Is it hard to get comfortable playing on the true temperament frets?

Speaker 5 (24:29):

I mean, it looks kind of mind boggling at first, but when I started playing, as long as I don't look at the fret board, I can't even feel that it's there. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (24:39):

I guess you don't really feel the frets when you're playing a normal guitar. You're just focused on the string and the position.

Speaker 5 (24:46):

Yeah, exactly. Even when you do vibrato and you bend, you can't really tell that there's a difference. That's

Speaker 2 (24:54):

What I was going to ask. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (24:56):

If you look at the true temperament fretboard, the biggest difference is at the first fret in between the G and the B strings, you can see that there's a big dent there, but the rest of the frets aren't that crooked, and at the first fre, you rarely do a lot of big bends unless you're Steve.

Speaker 2 (25:13):

On a scale of one to 10, 10 being most effective, how effective is a true temperament fret system? I mean, is it big improvement or what?

Speaker 5 (25:22):

I think it's a huge improvement. I mean, it still also comes down to how hard you hit the strings with your pick, the touch you have with

Speaker 2 (25:30):

The pressure left

Speaker 5 (25:31):

Hand. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:32):

Yeah.

Speaker 5 (25:32):

So it's not going to be like 100%, but it's very, very close. Have

Speaker 3 (25:36):

You ever tried an evert tune bridge?

Speaker 5 (25:38):

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:38):

What do you think of those?

Speaker 5 (25:39):

It's also a cool invention, I think, and if you get true temperament and evert tune, then basically you have a keyboard. It's like a guitar synthesizer. It's

Speaker 2 (25:50):

Awesome. Well, maybe it's not awesome. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (25:53):

Well, how can you possibly play out a tune if you have both of those things without detuning the guitar? Physically, I've heard I'm not that experienced with evert tune. I've just heard that you do have to pay a price with your tone for using an evert tune. Like I've heard that they hurt the sustain a little bit. They definitely hurt the tone a little. Have you experienced that?

Speaker 5 (26:18):

No, I haven't messed around with it that much.

Speaker 3 (26:21):

I've only heard that a couple times.

Speaker 5 (26:23):

Okay. I don't own a guitar with une.

Speaker 3 (26:25):

Does the true temperament fretboard mess with the tone at all, or do you think it's neutral tone wise?

Speaker 5 (26:31):

I think it's neutral. Some people claim that you can get a little bit more sustained from playing chords or whatever. From sympathetic

Speaker 3 (26:39):

Sympathetic vibrations.

Speaker 5 (26:41):

Yeah, exactly. I think it sounds more or less exactly as a regular fretboard, just more in tune.

Speaker 3 (26:48):

Okay. Do you play scalped frets?

Speaker 5 (26:50):

No. I got to Steve Guitars, the Gems, and they have the upper four or five frets are scalloped, but up there, the distance in between the fret is so small that you can't really tell that it's scalloped.

Speaker 3 (27:03):

Joel, have you ever played a scallop?

Speaker 4 (27:05):

Yeah, I had, I've been as RG five 70 where I had them scallop out the very top notes just so I could get under the string because there wasn't, it was a bolt on neck and not like a through neck design, but it had a huge back, so I had to reach my hand over and down instead of being able to slide my hand up to comfortably get into those frets, so I scalloped them so I could get at that awkward angle, my finger under the string to do the high fret bends. It was a 24 fret guitar, so that was the only time I really did that. I mean, I've played some of the inve model guitars and it's definitely a different feel if you're not used to it, but I definitely, there was a value for the guitar that I had because it was very hard to access those frets. The guitar played beautifully, but then they had this stupid neck design that didn't allow you to actually get up there and do the crazy stuff you want to do.

Speaker 3 (27:58):

Man, I can't handle scallop frets.

Speaker 4 (28:00):

They're different.

Speaker 3 (28:01):

I just don't understand how you can play chords on them very well.

Speaker 4 (28:04):

They rule for vibrato. Well, if you have a scallop fret board, you're probably a league guitar player and you don't have time to play chords.

Speaker 3 (28:12):

I actually have played on inves guitars, and I can't do it every single fret scalloped. I just don't understand how you can play so lightly and maintain accuracy while not pulling things out of tune. It kind of blows my mind. You

Speaker 4 (28:31):

Might need a heavier string gauge or I don't know. I haven't had enough experience on them to really know them intimately. I always just liked my IBE as guitars, and that's what I stuck with most of the time.

Speaker 3 (28:44):

So PA question for you, since obviously if you went through the trouble of getting a true temperament fret, board intonation is a big deal to you. Is there anything else that you do with your hands or any tuning tricks that you use for making sure that your leads are in perfect tune?

Speaker 5 (29:05):

I've used auto tune a few times in the studio, but nothing playing wise except for not playing way too hard or having too much pressure with my left hand.

Speaker 3 (29:15):

And do you play on a floating bridge?

Speaker 5 (29:17):

No, it's a fixed bridge on my strandberg, but we are going to do a version of it with a floating bridge as well. So my older guitars, they are with floating bridges like my gems and the guitars that I played previously, and

Speaker 3 (29:29):

Man, those are so hard to keep in tune.

Speaker 5 (29:31):

Yeah, it's terrible.

Speaker 3 (29:34):

So let's talk about auto tune and guitars for a second. I feel like some people hate that idea, but I feel like it's like any other technique. Sometimes it's necessary because maybe your guitar is in tune, but the rest of the music isn't in tune,

Speaker 4 (29:54):

Or you have a great take and you miss a bend and you don't want to lose the take and the band is just slightly flat or you overshot it. Yeah, and that's where I use it sometimes.

Speaker 5 (30:04):

Exactly. And also with my non true temperament guitars, it can really bother me when the intonation is off. That's basically why I've used autotune on the occasional part, don't think's a big deal. It's not like I played out of tune. It's just like nudging things a little bit into the right direction. It's not different from taking out 4K from the symbols because they were a little bit too harsh or something. It's not changing the performance. It's different if you have vocals that there's a guy who can't really sing and you put all the tune on it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (30:43):

Yeah. I equate it to doing another take. It's like punching in on a drum part or it's there as a tool. Again, the classic situation as you're doing a solo, you have an awesome take on an improvised part that's really inspired, but you have one or two bends that are a little bit out of tune and you just tune up the di and reamp it and there you go. You have the solo that you want.

Speaker 3 (31:07):

I feel like also, and we've talked about this before, the standards of what's acceptable to the listening audience have changed In the 1970s, you could have lead guitar solos where a guy is bending out of tune and there's no way to really fix it and it's okay. But nowadays, basically the listening public has evolved to the point where I don't think you can get away with out of tune bends and really not turn off your audience.

Speaker 4 (31:41):

I should show you some of my guitar player hate email from back in the day when I used to run and sing guitar.com. I have so many emails like, dude, your bend is out of tune on this solo. You suck. You should quit. Fuck you.

Speaker 3 (31:56):

That people were sending you that.

Speaker 4 (31:58):

Yeah, you miss one bend and you put a recording online and then you get 50 emails about it that are very angry. I mean, guitar players are an interesting breed. I don't get where the anger comes from. Probably lack of sex and interaction with women because you're too busy practicing.

Speaker 3 (32:16):

Well, I think that as far as guitar goes, hitting super out of tune bends is one of the most offensive noises you can make, but I don't understand where the hate comes from.

Speaker 4 (32:27):

They weren't super out of tune Bens, they were just slightly, you do a real performance and you are just a little flat on one or two or you know what I mean? It's just whatever. People are just bastards.

Speaker 3 (32:40):

I definitely hate auto tune guitar, but I also feel like there's, at least in my ears, there's a certain amount of it that is kind of acceptable, but I'm a little older than some people. But for instance, one of the sounds that I like that a lot of people don't like, and I've had arguments with people about this is when you have quaded guitars for instance, sometimes I like the coring between different takes. As long as it doesn't sound out of tune, so long as it's still tastefully in tune, it doesn't bother me very much.

Speaker 2 (33:15):

It all depends on the goal.

Speaker 3 (33:16):

Yeah, exactly. Well, if it sounds like that cool classic rock sound, then it doesn't bother me. But for a modern metal production, I don't think you can really get away with that kind of stuff. And we've been discussing guitars are not perfect. Instruments and guitar players are not perfect machines, so sometimes you need to use autotune to fix stuff. When you guys are auto tuning guitars or melodi them, are there any settings that you go to? I guess

Speaker 5 (33:46):

It depends on what's been playing. If it's a fast run, you have to have fast settings and if it's a slow band, I mean if you even can use autotune for a slow band, you have to have the settings really slow because if you can pick up that you're using autotune on a guitar, that's not cool. It's very annoying.

Speaker 4 (34:06):

Yeah, definitely. I prefer graphical block-based grid tuners versus lines. I'll give you an example, like stock very audio and cubase or meloy versus autotune for tuning guitars because you can take the whole bend for example, and move the block up and center the part that you want to be in tune without having to draw the line and then draw the bend in to connect the bend part of the line. That is say undershot on a flat bend, it's less drawing and to my ear it usually sounds better. So I like the block type tuners instead of the more fixed. I know Joey's like you love the for tuning vocals like the lines because a line is more in tune than a block. But for guitars, I think a block is really good for tuning bends.

Speaker 2 (34:50):

Yeah, I mean I just try to have as much control over the pitch as possible, so I prefer it to be pretty loose in terms of I don't like the blocks because they limit you to what your potential adjustments are. So I prefer to have it to where I can just freely correct the pitch and change it. But for guitars, you have to understand the instrument and what's happening. You're pushing down on the string, which is creating a sine wave, and it doesn't really fluctuate much unless you start moving the string around. Because of that, it's going to cause you to do certain pitch correction changes. You're going to need to make straight lines and stuff, but if you do it too straight, then it'll start to sound like a keyboard because then the keyboard can switch from one note to another digitally as fast as possible, whereas a guitar needs to actually do it. The guitar player moves his hand, so there's a movement to the note changes.

Speaker 3 (35:51):

That brings up a question that I've got pair. How important is it to you that the solos that you record can actually be played live standing up? Do you think about that when you're recording solos? I mean, I know you do a bunch of guest solos, so you'll never play these live. So does it matter to you if it's realistic or do you think about that at all?

Speaker 5 (36:15):

Well, once I'm on stage it becomes very important, but when I actually record, I don't think about it too much because usually when I start recording, when I start getting a vision of how I want it to sound, I don't care too much about whether I'm going to be able to play it every night on a long tour. I just want to produce the sound and the melodies that I hear. I've gotten into a lot of trouble sometimes.

Speaker 3 (36:41):

One of my favorite musicians, Mike Patton, I remember reading an interview with him about Mr. Bungle a long time ago. I know that some people may not know who they are, but they're one of the weirdest, craziest live bands ever. But he was asked whether they worry about being able to play their stuff live, and he always said that priority one is make a great record and once you make a great record, then figure out how to play it live.

Speaker 4 (37:10):

I think that's a good technique too for just general musicianship if you want to get better. This is something I used to preach a lot when I was teaching guitar often in the studio, when you're writing a solo, you want to challenge yourself, at least I always did. I guess that's part of being a shredder in the shredder mentality. It's like an Olympic sport, as we were saying earlier, is you always want to try playing things that are really cool in your head, but you may not be able to quite execute. So you pull it off in the studio, you write it, you edit it, and then you practice it and you learn it, and that's really a great way to get better at the craft and just art of playing whatever instrument you're doing is to literally play something out of your ability, record it, and then force yourself to have to learn how to play it because you're going to be on stage in say, two or three months, and if you can't, you're going to look like an idiot.

Speaker 3 (37:58):

There's a fine line though, I think. Oh,

Speaker 4 (38:00):

Definitely. It has to be realistic or else Dragon force.

Speaker 3 (38:03):

Yeah. I remember John Petru saying that he always liked to try to write solos that were maybe 15% above his physical ability so that he would actually have to get better in order to be able to play 'em live, but it wasn't so far beyond his ability that it would be impossible.

Speaker 4 (38:24):

Yeah, that's the fatal tragedy. Solo debacle. There was a huge thing where John Perri and some videos was constantly missing one of the sweeps, and it was a great controversy for months in the guitar forums, and I am just sitting here reading this stuff. I'm like, guys, none of you could play it, so why are you hating on one of the best guitar players ever? It's so ridiculous. So what if maybe the lights are hot? Maybe he stepped on his cable weird and he missed the sweep. It's not easy to play.

Speaker 3 (38:52):

Oh, so it's just one video where he missed a sweep?

Speaker 4 (38:55):

Yeah. It happened a couple times and this was when YouTube was starting. There was some lick in the solo and fatal tragedy that's kind of like a technical sweep where it's like multi-position where you slide up, if I remember correctly. I mean that this is years ago, and he had had a couple of rough goes that were captured on video and it started circulating in the guitar forums and oh my God, it was like world wari. I mean, that's just how guitar players are. It's a wiener fest. I'm better than you.

Speaker 3 (39:26):

It's also the nature of video, kind of the luck of the draw, because say you take a guitar player like that over the course of a 30 day tour, and I guarantee you that 20 of the shows, they're going to play it pretty good. Five of the shows, they're going to play it amazing, and then five of the shows they're going to play it terrible. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (39:46):

Maybe he didn't sleep the night before. He's sick. Or like I said, he stepped on his cable and lost his balance, or he is under a hot light or he is just having an off night. You know what I mean? There's a million factors that can cause you to whiff something on stage.

Speaker 3 (39:59):

One of the best examples of how this stuff can get taken way out of context is the betcha can't play this video series by Guitar World because I don't know if you guys have noticed, but some of those videos are terrible.

Speaker 4 (40:13):

Oh my God.

Speaker 3 (40:14):

And they're by guitar players that are not terrible. You get guys that are really, really great and then you watch their, you can't play this, and you would think that they're total beginners and it doesn't make sense because you've heard them on recordings, you've seen them live and they're really good, or you play in a band with them or whatever. They're great guitar players and you see this video and it's like, what happened? And you realize that if you get five takes of a solo, one of them is going to suck. And if that's the one that goes up on YouTube, that's what everybody knows you by and it doesn't matter how good the takes are that nobody ever heard

Speaker 4 (40:52):

20,000 negative comments, later dislikes and 10 pages of hate mail, and that's what happens.

Speaker 3 (40:59):

I try not to judge too harshly based on what I see online, but still, you know that thing about John Pictures, you not being able to play those sweeps in that one spot. I know a few producers whose opinion on recording solos is whether it's realistic or not, it's not their problem.

Speaker 2 (41:18):

That's how I feel about it. True. It's like I can't be worrying about that whole thing and also worry about how it sounds and also worry about the editing, and you hired me to make it sound good. So that's what I'm focused on. That's what I'm trying to do.

Speaker 4 (41:34):

Yeah. The producer doesn't have a guitar ego,

Speaker 2 (41:37):

The pride and the ego and all the drama that goes on with that and behind that is impossible to deal with on top of the production and the mixing and the sound and the sonics and the character. So

Speaker 3 (41:50):

I've had some guitar players who want to make it so realistic that they will insist on playing through their pedal board and playing through all the pedal changes, which I haven't really allowed unless it's a whammy pedal or something like that. But I've had arguments with guitar players about that and it's like, look, look, it's not going to work. You're going to mess up and it's going to sound terrible and it's not my problem if you can't play it live. Go practice.

Speaker 2 (42:26):

Well, speaking of that, I was curious, do you prefer to record yourself or do you like to have someone else record you when you're playing guitar?

Speaker 5 (42:35):

I absolutely prefer to record myself, especially if it's stuff that is already written like rhythm guitars and stuff like that. I don't mind having someone else produce or be the engineer, but when I'm creating stuff, when I'm writing my solos, I really like to be in full control myself.

Speaker 2 (42:55):

That's awesome. That allows you to be more creative and properly get your ideas out faster, doesn't it?

Speaker 5 (43:01):

And I like to press the record button myself and decide myself when I'm going to do something like do another take or, so

Speaker 3 (43:09):

I want to bring up a comparison because we just spoke to Kurt Ballou, producer and guitar player from Converge, who I would say is about as polar opposite to how you play as possible. He started recording for the same types of reasons, which is when someone else would try to record him. They wouldn't understand what he was trying to do or wouldn't be thinking fast enough or be on the same page, so he just learned how to do it himself so that he could have the freedom to actually express himself the way he needed to on the instrument. I got to say though, that for me personally, I prefer somebody else recording me, but that depends on how good they are. For instance, if you have a brilliant dude like Jason Soff punching you in, then I'm cool with it because I know that his musical brain is faster than my musical brain, so he's going to be on top of everything I'm trying to do. But if I'm recording with someone, if someone's punching me in that's slower than me, musically, I can't handle it. I go crazy. I've had it both ways. I think that the key is that if the engineer producer is really good at music and can understand what you're doing, it's actually kind of freeing to have somebody else punch you in because all you have to focus on is playing. I feel like sometimes I to focus on editing myself or recording myself, it makes me play worse.

Speaker 5 (44:43):

For me. It's also a matter of if you're working with a producer and then he's on the clock.

Speaker 3 (44:49):

True.

Speaker 5 (44:50):

Basically you're in the studio for eight hours and you're recording solos, and then I have to just keep pouring out solos. But if I record at my own place and I can do it whenever I want, I can record when I'm in my best mood,

Speaker 2 (45:07):

And that will change the outcome of the performances and the parts, and ultimately it can produce better results.

Speaker 5 (45:15):

So that's also very important for me.

Speaker 4 (45:17):

Yeah, yeah. I always liked recording by myself. The guitar, I feel like the guitar is just a very intimate thing and writing solos, and I hate listening to somebody else's opinion when I'm writing it. So in the Zone, I don't want to sit there and have my singer come in and be like, dude, that sounded good, and you dip shit. I missed 20 notes. That sounded like, shit, get out of here. So it was always very difficult for me to record solos with people in the room. I just want to be in the zone, lock the door, and then emerge with a great solo that I'm proud of and not have to listen to anything and then have people listen to it and be like, alright, dude, you suck. Or, yeah, this is okay.

Speaker 3 (45:53):

I think just you need to have a really great producer if you're going to have someone else do it. If you're already good at recording and you're good at guitar, the only way that it can work out favorably is if the guy recording you is really, really good. Agreed. You know what I mean? I totally understand where you guys are coming from, and I agree. The only thing that I'll say is if you were working with the Genius or something, there could be benefit in that as well. It just depends, but I feel like that's another thing that we should touch on real quick. I think that lead guitar is probably the closest thing to vocals that you can do in music besides vocals, same types of frequency ranges, same role in the music. It's basically like a song within a song and it takes over the lead.

(46:46):

And so with that, it's ultra expressive and you can't just approach it the way that you would approach recording drums or recording rhythms where it's like clock in, clock out. You do need to work with the mood of the lead guitar player. And I've noticed many, many times that trying to record leads with an uninspired guitar player doesn't really work out. Sometimes they need to take a shower, take a shit, or come back the next day, get high, drink a beer, whatever it is, go running whatever it is they need to do. I think it's super important to try to be in tune with that kind of stuff when you're recording a guitar player, just like with a vocalist,

Speaker 5 (47:28):

And sometimes you're looking for the same things as like when you record vocals, sometimes you get an ending of a phrase, you get a little bit of vibrato or something that just makes the whole part much better. And it's the same thing with guitar, just the small details that it's really expressive. It's

Speaker 3 (47:44):

Something that may be on rhythm guitars you would redo as well. I think that there's a lot more nuance in lead guitar. Your brain needs to be in the mood to actually perceive those little nuances and make the right decisions. Whereas like I was saying, with rhythm guitars, a lot of those little things will make it sound worse. If you're quoting guitars or doubling them might make shit sound sloppy. So, whereas Rhythm guitar is a very yes no right, wrong binary type recording process, I feel with lead guitar there's a lot more art to it, and so therefore your mood needs to be that much more in the right spot. Definitely.

Speaker 4 (48:28):

Well, alright guys, I think that we are about out of time for tips and tricks today.

Speaker 3 (48:33):

P, thank you for coming on, man.

Speaker 5 (48:34):

Thanks

Speaker 4 (48:35):

For having me. This

Speaker 5 (48:36):

Was really a lot of fun.

Speaker 3 (48:37):

Yeah, love talking guitar and love your playing and thank you for sending me that video. It's phenomenal. Is there anything that you want to promote or say or push or,

Speaker 5 (48:50):

I would like to say Trevor, one that you have to check out this band called Doth because they were

Speaker 3 (48:56):

Awesome. Yeah, they were awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 5 (49:00):

And they need to put out another album

Speaker 3 (49:02):

One day.

Speaker 5 (49:03):

Well thanks so much for coming

Speaker 4 (49:04):

On.

Speaker 3 (49:05):

Thanks man. Yeah, thanks P.

Speaker 5 (49:06):

Take care guys. Talk

Speaker 3 (49:07):

To you soon. Bye. Alright,

Speaker 1 (49:08):

Take

Speaker 3 (49:08):

It easy, dude.

Speaker 1 (49:09):

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