LASSE LAMMERT: Creating His Signature Plugin, Why He Avoids Templates, Navigating Mix Revisions

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

Welcome to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast, and now your host, Eyal Levi. Welcome to the URM podcast. Thank you so much for being here. It's crazy to think that we are now on our seventh year. Don't ask me how that all just flew by, but it did. Man, time moves fast and it's only because of you, the listeners, if you'd like us to stick around another seven years and there's a few simple things you can do that would really, really help us out, I would endlessly appreciate if you would, number one, share our episodes with your friends. Number two, post our episodes on your Facebook and Instagram and tag me at al Levi URM audio and at URM Academy and of course our guest. And number three, leave us reviews and five star reviews wherever you can. We especially love iTunes reviews. Once again, thank you for all the years and years of loyalty.

(00:01:01):

I just want you to know that we will never charge you for this podcast and I will always work as hard as possible to improve the episodes in every single way. All we ask in return is a share a post and tag us. Oh, and one last thing. Do you have a question you would like me to answer on an episode? I don't mean for a guest, I mean for me, it can be about anything. Email it to [email protected]. That's EYAL at m dot A-C-D-E-M-Y. There's no.com on that. It's exactly the way I spelled it and use the subject line Answer me Eyal. Alright, let's get on with it. Hello everybody. Welcome to the URM podcast. My guest today is Lasi la me, who actually has been on before. I recommend checking out his prior episode. It's very interesting and he was a great guest and he talks about some stuff that really nobody else has ever talked about. So I suggest you go back in time all the way back to episode number 68 and check it out. But first, listen to this. If you don't know who Lasse is, you should just know he's a world-class musician, engineer and producer who has worked with bands such as Alestorm, Abigail Williams, and many, many more. And I think that he's one of the, I guess I would call him leading heavy guitar tone experts in the world. Here goes enjoy Lasse Lammert, welcome back to the URM podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02:32):

Hey, thanks for having me. It's good to be back.

Speaker 1 (00:02:34):

Last time you were on, I believe was 2016

Speaker 2 (00:02:38):

Ages ago

Speaker 1 (00:02:39):

Or 17 and a lot's happened since then.

Speaker 2 (00:02:42):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:02:42):

So I figured we may as well catch up. You've done a lot of stuff since then. One thing I wanted to ask you about, not as a plug for your plugin, but more because I know you as a tone hunter, that's kind of how I've always known you, is a person that creates tones from scratch every time, basically goes fucking insane to get the best tone

Speaker 2 (00:03:06):

Possible literally.

Speaker 1 (00:03:07):

Yeah, yeah, I know. And you get amazing tones and so did making a guitar plugin kind break your brain at all or was there a logical reason for it?

Speaker 2 (00:03:21):

Both really. There was a logical reason for it and it broke my brain. The process. We had, the tone hub thing, which I have presets for and I'm still using that all the time, but those presets and tone hub are kind of like Kemper. So you get the full chain recorded and people can use it and it's mix ready and it's great. You can tweak it after the fact. You've got a virtual mic position modeling kind of thing, and you can move the mic and tweak the knobs on the amp and the amp inside tone hub is modeled after the actual amp from the preset too. So if I've got a 51 50 preset, for example, on the Trace amp, that's the core amp and tone hub is modeled after the 51 50 as well, and then it caps us the entire chain like a camper would. But unlike the camper with a camper, you've got the treble mid and base, the tone knobs, they're just at some certain spot and you can fine tweak them.

Speaker 1 (00:04:16):

Yeah, they just stop working

Speaker 2 (00:04:19):

And it's really not like the actual lamp, is it?

Speaker 1 (00:04:20):

No, I don't think it was intended to be, but yeah, I think the Kemper, I look at it like a snapshot of a tone and then if you start moving the parameters too much, sometimes you could get something cool, but if you think that the knobs are going to react the way that the knobs on the amp do, you're just wrong. All you have is one point in time, one guitar going through one set of knobs, set a certain way through certain cabin mic, that situation. That's it.

Speaker 2 (00:04:50):

Exactly. And with tone hop with the Tracer Amp, it's a bit closer to the actual lamb, so the tone knobs react kind of like the amp would, but it's still a bit of an approximation. Obviously it just capture the entire chain very much like a keer profile and that's inside the box then, and then you can tweak the stuff. But with the tonality, that's entirely different. I really wanted to have what I have in the studio. I wanted to have that in the box and build everything from scratch. I mean, obviously there are presets that people can use, but I wanted my amps and my cabinets and my mics as a raw base material that I can then use to sculpt tones from or anyone else really. And we went into ridiculous detail with the modeling. I sent the amps to Italy and they took them apart and measured them on component level, like every single resistor and every single capacitor was measured and then recreated in the digital domain.

(00:05:53):

And so that's spot on my amps with all the little kinks and all the little unique things that the might have. For example, the Drift board is essentially the first production model before a production model. Really when Marek from Driftwood created the amp, he sent me some prototypes and we sent them back and forth and I kind of helped voicing it and which we did a little bit. And the drift, what I have is the first final model and back then, for example, the supplier for the output transformers was still a bit different. So mine is tiny bit different from most other driftwoods and that's also captured in the plugin, so that's amazing. And then we went into ridiculous detail again with the cabinet modeling or capturing of IRS actually. And what we did there is I didn't want, usually you've got a couple of IRS and then the in between positions, so just approximations, just well, any queue making it a bit darker when you go towards the edge or something or it's between two captured irs, you get a blended sound and I wanted pretty much every position to be the actual position, and so we took our, I captured 9,600 IRSs for the plugin, ridiculous amount of harass and that would never have been possible with a manual mic placement obviously.

(00:07:17):

So we use the mount, I guess everyone knows by now what it is,

Speaker 1 (00:07:20):

The robot mic mount.

Speaker 2 (00:07:22):

You put a mic on it and it's controlled via software. The wizard behind the STL plugins, Federico, he programmed a software just for this purpose. You put it into the center position, a reference position, and then you can assign the furthest position and most left and most right position you put into the software the amount of captures you want per distance essentially. So you've got the closed position, for example, closest to the grid cloth from the very left to the very right and you can, well if you want, do a thousand different IRS there and same for the angles and same for the steps back from the mic and this software and this method they already used for mub, which was like the, I don't want to say predecessor because that's not true, but my tonality plugin is based on the MUB architecture rather than the other older tonality stuff. So we used the same software, but I was so anal again that I think in the 2, 3, 4, whatever amount of weeks it took me to capture those irs, I had him change the software like seven times and make little adjustments and little tweaks and I thought he was going to hate me, but it turns out he kind of appreciated me being so meticulous about it. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:08:42):

I think that people who have a high standard for things appreciate working with other people who have a high standard for things as well.

Speaker 2 (00:08:50):

Yeah, I guess

Speaker 1 (00:08:51):

As long as their feedback is reasonable,

Speaker 2 (00:08:54):

It can get quite annoying I guess. But yeah, well in the end, we're all at the same goal. It has to be perfect. I didn't want to release it if it's not perfect, I captured four of my cabinets, two speakers each because every speaker sounds different even in the same cabinet and I've got my favorite speakers for different stuff, so I wanted to capture those all. So that's eight speakers and then I use my favorite mics for those speakers, so five mics, eight speakers, well that then turned out to be 9,600 IRS just to capture all the positions, all the angles, all the distances and everything. That's how it turned out. Then just my cabinets, my mics and my amps, and I was absolutely stoked. The first time I got the plugin I got to try it out. The beta version, the first one they sent me, it was literally like I just had a remote user interface for my actual amp in the other room, so it felt and sounded like it.

Speaker 1 (00:09:46):

Did you ever expect there to be a day where that would happen? No,

Speaker 2 (00:09:49):

Absolutely not. It's really, I'm blown away.

Speaker 1 (00:09:52):

I know the thing that's interesting to me, it's interesting to me how many people I know that are amp purists who in the past year or two changed their mind because the technology has just gotten better.

Speaker 2 (00:10:04):

Yeah, exactly. I think there's still a place for amps and caps and marks and there always will be and it's a great thing and I still love micing amps, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 (00:10:10):

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (00:10:11):

I think it's very much like with vinyl for example, today, usually vinyl doesn't sound better than high quality digital. You've got limited bandwidth, you've got less dynamic range. Still people enjoy listening to vinyl and say, it sounds better, but what really is better about wine? As you actually take the thing in your hand and you put it on another thing and you sit down and you listen through it,

Speaker 1 (00:10:33):

There's a psychological component to it.

Speaker 2 (00:10:36):

Yes. And I think that just makes you listen in a different way compared to having a Spotify playlist with 2000 songs and just skipping one after the other so you listen differently. And I think that's the same thing with hardware and with amps, you just use them in a different way I guess because you have this heavy amp in front of you and you just turn knobs and things happen and there's some sort of feedback you get from that. I think. And same is true for hardware and mixing compressors and cue and stuff, and often I think I can't hear a difference Sometimes it's very obvious. It really depends on the plugin and the hardware and everything. But again, I think the most important difference is actually being able to grab the knobs and just performing mixing really rather than well, programming, mixing.

Speaker 1 (00:11:21):

I also think that physical gear breaks and degrades. You have to maintain it and there's no guarantees that tomorrow it's going to sound the way that it did today and by capturing it the way that you did, at the very least, if nothing else, you've committed that gear to history basically in that condition.

Speaker 2 (00:11:42):

And I'm really quite happy and proud that we got to work with the official, this is the only the first and will remain the only official Driftwood plugin. Driftwood worked with us together with that on that. And so to have that officially, that's the only Driftwood thing. That's amazing. And same with the hot mod. I've been using the old Sano hot mod for ages. That's a little, well the old marshals have 3 12, 5 7 tubes and each tube's got two gain stages in there essentially. So what this Sano hot mat does is you take one of those dual triodes out and put tube, it's a different tube with three gain stages in and there's another a little bit where that's like the circuitry and everything, so you essentially get a mod marshal without modding it. So you just take one tube out, put the other tube in and slow down.

(00:12:34):

They used to build it in I guess in the nineties and they discontinued it and I always loved it and bought a couple of used whenever I could find them and they're getting really pricey, like 400 bucks or something. And now company called Legendary Tone makes them again, so that's a reissue by legendary tone and it's the official reissue and it's also called Hot Mod and they've tweaked it again and they switched for a bit more or less gain a bit more or less base. David, the guy who built them sent me a couple and I tried them and I loved them and they replaced my old Soldana ones actually. So when we modeled my 81, it is an 81 822 0 3. I wanted that hot mod in there, so I contacted Dave from Legendary Tones if we can use it and make it official, and luckily he agreed. So this is an official legendary tones hot Mod V two inside the Marshall now that can be switched in and out. It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:13:30):

Do you feel like having this now has changed your efficiency, your workflow at all when you're actually working?

Speaker 2 (00:13:38):

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:13:39):

Does it make the tone hunt easier?

Speaker 2 (00:13:41):

Well, not necessarily. It gives me more options. I still have all the amps and caps and mics and I'm still micing

Speaker 1 (00:13:47):

Options can be a problem.

Speaker 2 (00:13:48):

Yeah, definitely. But it definitely makes the recording process easier because it interrupts creativity less. If you've got the musicians sitting here and recording a rhythm guitar and then it comes to the lead part and it thinks, oh damn, I want to retry that solo again or whatever, I can just switch to the other sound without interrupting the flow and he just retracts it and then we are back to the rhythm sound. And with hardware amps, I don't really like to do that. You never get the same sound again if you move mics and stuff. Plus it takes a ton of time. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:14:17):

It's over forever. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:14:19):

That's why I like amping. You could still kind of do it if you had a camper tone or whatever and then you amped later, but now I'm so close to the final sound or it even is the final sound if I'm using the plugin, which I'm often doing now, actually the band often gets used to it, they love it during tracking and then they say, well, let's just keep it. Alright,

Speaker 1 (00:14:38):

So you feel like you're close to the final tone if not the final tone during tracking. That's something that always weirded me out about the way that I learned metal production was to sit there for days and get a guitar tone days, sometimes 10 days knowing full well that you're going to reamp later.

Speaker 2 (00:14:57):

I love amping a love of having the options and it's a good thing and it saved a couple of sessions for everyone I guess. But that's exactly the thing.

Speaker 1 (00:15:07):

What's the point of that? There's

Speaker 2 (00:15:08):

Something to be said for the connection between guitarist and the tone or the gear. Especially for stuff like Palm Mutes and Pinch harmonics, you play differently.

Speaker 1 (00:15:17):

You

Speaker 2 (00:15:17):

Get the immediate feedback from the amp or even from the software, from the camper, whatever, but from the sound you're playing, you

Speaker 1 (00:15:22):

Play into the tone. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (00:15:24):

It's a give and take in a instant feedback thing you get. So I definitely try to get the perfect tone during recording and then keep it if possible. Often it's not possible for several reasons, but then at least I've got a tone and the mode of distortion and everything that is so extremely close to why I want to be anyway, so that the interaction between guitarist and tone is still kind of working. So it's not like guitarist trying to do massive and then he's playing through Clean Amp and just as bling and sounds garbage,

(00:15:59):

But it really depends on the way I'm tracking. For example, what I like to do is when we're double tracking or quad tracking, I usually use two amps or caps or whatever, two different tones like most people do. Often it's easier to not let the guitars play the entire song one side and then the other side, but one sees zoned in on that riff or just the chorus or the verse or whatever, and you place it perfectly, it makes sense to just do the double as well. So I just have to have him play it over and over and over again until I've got all the takes I need and then obviously it's all been checked with the same tone, so I've got to Reem two of those or I want to reem two of those to get different tones for example. Often that gives a better result than having him play the entire song or her and then change the amp and then play the entire song again and it's going to be different then

Speaker 1 (00:16:47):

Unless you're looking for variation. I think that there's some production styles where they want that difference on the two sides. I think that unless that's a specific artistic thing that you want, you're going to get way better results doing it. Like you just said, part by part section by section.

Speaker 2 (00:17:06):

Exactly. So I'm trying to get best of both worlds. I try to get the main sound, like my core sound perfect record all guitars with that and then just reamp the doubles to wait look with the different sound. So that's kind of what I like to do.

Speaker 1 (00:17:19):

Yep, makes sense. Well, I mean even if you have evert tune, the way that they will play it 10 minutes later is going to be a little bit different because when somebody is tracking a riff and then doing takes and then getting into it or maybe playing it to a click over and over and over and over and really finding the pocket of that riff. If they have to then wait until they're done with the entire song to come back, they're going to have to find that pocket all over again and there's no telling if they're going to find it the way that they did, even if it's a little bit different, it's not the same.

Speaker 2 (00:17:54):

Exactly. And there's other advantages. For example, I'm just mixing a band, I'm not sure I can tell you this, but they've got a ton of tracks, a ton of drafts singing, a ton of orchestration, a ton of everything really. It's just dunno, 200 plus tracks of orchestra and metal and so I have to start somewhere with a mix and I don't want to say lead guitars aren't important, but obviously the rhythm guitars are much more important for the overall sound. They fill up so much space just the frequency wise. So when I start mixing before I've got a basic sound going with that many tracks with orchestras and everything, it doesn't make sense for me to reamp the lead guitars already. For me, it's much easier to have the core going with drum space, rhythm guitars, orchestra and Vocus and whatever is in there and then find a lead guitar that works.

(00:18:44):

So what I usually do in order to get that core mix great is I use the plugin for the leads first, then I can still go back all the time and just tweak bit more heights, bit more lows, bit more distortions, mids only or whatever, and that makes it easier for me to get the basic elements rocking and vibing first and the lead guitars are still always changing possibly, well we have to make room sometimes or they have to fit in another space now that I've brought all the strings in or whatever. So that's where the plugin is really, really useful.

Speaker 1 (00:19:15):

I mean lead guitars just aren't a core element as important as they are, they just aren't

Speaker 2 (00:19:20):

Lead guitars. Don't like to hear that, but it's true, especially solos.

Speaker 1 (00:19:24):

I was about to say sorry, lead guitar players

Speaker 2 (00:19:26):

And it's not because I'm guitarists, but rhythm guitars are just, I mean look at a rhythm guitar track on an analyzer and it's really, it's a massive chunk of frequency. It's just eating up so much space. So rhythm guitars combined with bass kick snare, that really makes the sound of the record for me.

Speaker 1 (00:19:43):

Also think about not just how much of the frequency spectrum it takes up, but look at it on, if you measure it against time, the amount of time that you're hearing rhythm guitar compared to a lead guitar is vastly disproportionate. I mean rhythm you're hearing maybe 90% of the time.

Speaker 2 (00:20:00):

Yeah, usually at least. I guess that's why I usually like to have the rhythm guitars perfect when I start mixing and then just mix around all that and just bring everything together and remain or keep some options open for the lead guitars to fit them in. That's why I just use this plugin and I'm so happy with the possibilities really there to carve out space and then find another space for the lead guitars. And if I wouldn't have had that option, if I just had amped already, I would've painted myself in a corner. I would've either have had to reamp again everything or adjust the entire mix around that because the lead guitars disappeared or there were too prominent or whatever. It's just much easier this way.

Speaker 1 (00:20:37):

Yeah, there's some guesswork involved with amping.

Speaker 2 (00:20:40):

Yeah, especially if you've got such an insane amount of tracks and stuff that needs to work together.

Speaker 1 (00:20:46):

At least when I was doing it, the amping was never in time with the music, so it's not like you could play it and listen to it. I don't know if you fixed that with yours

Speaker 2 (00:20:56):

While you're amping not, there's still a little bit of leg.

Speaker 1 (00:20:58):

That's what I'm saying. So there's guesswork involved. You have to imagine that it's going to work, hope that it's going to work.

Speaker 2 (00:21:06):

I usually just take a section of the song like chorus or verse or something and then Reem ball the guitars and check it out and compare amps and stuff. But yeah, that's the difficult thing really, if the band's sitting next to you while you're amping, which they often like to do because they like playing with amps and this is like a kid's toy land here, they like to try all the amps and then they sit back and listen to not just the guitars but the guitars very loud in the mix and it's not quite in time and every other minute someone jumps up, oh, this is not in time and oh, this sounds bad, it doesn't fit the whatever, kick drums. So this whole process can be quite tedious really, and that kind of takes some of that away.

Speaker 1 (00:21:50):

Well, yeah, I mean being able to do things instantaneously is amazing.

Speaker 2 (00:21:54):

You hear the difference immediately, just save it as another preset or whatever and just flick through them and just see what works best in the mix so much quicker.

Speaker 1 (00:22:02):

Interesting that you say this because you don't strike me as one of those preset type of guys.

Speaker 2 (00:22:06):

Oh yeah, no, I meant I created preset for this very project then and then I created a second or a third just so I can switch between them really quick and compare them.

Speaker 1 (00:22:14):

Oh, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (00:22:15):

I've never really start from a preset or from a template which I should do because it saves a ton of time and I know people like to do it and they're very well, it's very effective and it works for them. It doesn't work for me really

Speaker 1 (00:22:26):

Well. I think that there's different types of templates, first of all, and different types of presets. So I think that there's this idea on the internet when people say templates that they think that someone pull, opens up a session where everything is pre dialed everything and they just put the tracks in and voila, it's a mix. Most of the people I know who are badass and use templates, that's not the kind of templates they use. Every mixer, I don't care who it is, does lots of the same things every single time, whether it's routing or the way they set up their tracks or they have some go-to EQs that they just know they like that they're going to try that first on lots of different things. Most mixers I know who are pretty great have a lot of things like that figured out that they just do the same every time. There's a lot of things that they don't do the same every time, but there's some basic setup that's just the same every time. Same as if you're starting a writing session or you're starting a guitar tracking session, you're going to need, well if you're using amps, you're going to need the amp and the DI or multiple mics and the di. So you just pull up a template that has that already and you don't need to set the groups and just hit the red button and record.

Speaker 2 (00:23:44):

For me, that's vocal effects. I think I've got my go-to vocal effects that I usually start with a couple of delays and reverbs and stuff that's always changing, but I kind of used the one I used last as a template and load those in. I tried that with routing, but it just, I felt that I didn't feel like I have the freedom to just do what's best for the mix for that because figured out that with this one mix, for example, I had routed everything into everything I had side chain this from that and side chained that from this and that went into a group track and into sub mix and into buses. So a couple of snare tracks for example, bust into snare, bus bust into drums and parallel drums and that side chain to whatever for the entire thing. It was very, very complex.

Speaker 1 (00:24:30):

That's extreme.

Speaker 2 (00:24:32):

And then the next mix, I had everything go straight to the stereo output, not a single group, not a single bus, and it was totally different music and it worked, but I like to have the freedom to just do something entirely different. So that's why I'm not liking templates for routing and for track setup and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:24:52):

But still you did identify something that you kind of start. So I think that's why I was saying there's different types out there and I do think that it's different for everybody and what's most important is that people find what works best for them. Whatever allows the mixer to do their best work should be the thing that they do. So if templates fuck 'em up, don't use them. If they make you work better use 'em. But I think, I don't know a single person though who doesn't have at least one thing that they kind of have a way that they start almost every time. So you just said vocal effects, there you go.

Speaker 2 (00:25:32):

Yeah, vocal effects is for me. So

Speaker 1 (00:25:34):

There's your template, vocal effects, routing.

Speaker 2 (00:25:36):

Yeah, true. Yeah, right. I think for me it's often I get on a CLA kick and then I am like a sponge and I try to find every little bit of information I can get on what's CLA doing, how is he doing it or on his knee or whoever. And so then the next mix of the next two or three, I mix like him. I don't want to say I'm getting the same sound or anything at all, but I'm using the same routing, the same kind of parallel tracks or whatever, the same kind of tricks they're doing. Same with, for example, when I watch a native mix kind of thing and there's one of these guys doing all the buses and AEs and everything, I try that on the next project and get it mixed on. So on the project after that I might be on that CLA kick for example. And the weird thing is that I'm not trying to mimic the sound, obviously I'm just trying the routing the way of working. There's something for me I can use. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:26:29):

That's how it's meant to be consumed by the way.

Speaker 2 (00:26:31):

That's what everyone should do I think is just use it in your project and what works for you might stick and you might use it again and modify it and make it yours. And what I noticed during those experiments or mix the CLA way mix, the sneak way, mix the borin way, whatever I still end up with, I don't want to say my signature sound, but people say my signature sound, they still say it sounds like a less lemon mix and I'm like still you. Yeah, but I did everything different. I purposely don't use the same plugins, I don't use the same s different mics, but if I get a new plugin, my goal is to use that plugin on the next mix pretty much exclusively or as much as I can get away with anyway, it still ends up sounding, I don't want to say the same, but it still ends up sounding like me. I'm not sure yet if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I guess it's just your ears don't change

Speaker 1 (00:27:20):

The way that somebody hears music. Nobody else can ever really understand that. We can understand how people approach solving problems or how they process things, how they work on things, but we will never be able to understand how they're actually hearing and interpreting and feeling music. We're never going to be able to understand what they're hearing in their head, what their actual big picture for the mix is any of that, their artistic vision for it. There's no way on earth you could ever understand that and there's no way on earth you could ever have a perspective on audio besides your own. So no matter what tools you use, it's still going to be through your perspective no matter what

Speaker 2 (00:28:06):

And your taste doesn't change or at least not that quickly.

Speaker 1 (00:28:10):

Not quickly.

Speaker 2 (00:28:10):

So you're still trying to get to the same kind of thing, the same tones you like. I'm not saying I'm trying to put my thing on or over the band's idea. I'm obviously trying to get the band sound and that's part of why I'm not using templates because I want to approach everything from scratch. I want to give the band their sound and do what's best for their song rather than doing something I've done before just because it worked there. But in the end you are the one turning your knobs and if something sounds too dull for you, you crank the treble and if you like, well trebbly sounds you're probably going to do that more often than not. So you're still tweaking with your taste and you're still end up somewhere in the same kind of ballpark

Speaker 1 (00:28:56):

Actually developing your tastes and your hearing takes a long time. I equate it to getting good at an instrument or building muscles at the gym, that type of thing where over time and consistency you will see results, but in the short term, you're not going to see results from one month to the next generally definitely not from one day to the next.

Speaker 2 (00:29:20):

Plus it's much harder to see I think because with building muscles, you actually, you've got your body composition measurements or yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:29:26):

You have some metrics.

Speaker 2 (00:29:28):

Same. Even if you learn an instrument, you can play something that you weren't able to play before

Speaker 1 (00:29:34):

And

Speaker 2 (00:29:34):

With mixing rather with hearing in general, it's so hard to quantify that. Really early nineties, my brother had a CD player and he said, well see sounds so much better than cassette. I had my old cassette tapes because I was fucking 80 years old or 10 or whatever. So I said I didn't hear a difference and I really did not hear a difference between the stupid cassette tape and the pristine selling cd. Now I obviously hear a clear difference, but that's an example that I sometimes like to remind myself of because so often you're supposed to mix for the band and the band wants to communicate their ideas and their vision about the sound, but it's still your duty to hear all those little details because you can't expect them to do that developed this year as a mixer that they might not have. Maybe they just say, well, it's not dirty enough and they can't even put their finger on what they mean by that, which

Speaker 1 (00:30:33):

Is okay, yeah,

Speaker 2 (00:30:34):

That's perfectly fine. That's my job to kind interpret that and do the right thing. But net I think comes from not having that developed yearly. They just know, okay, this is not working for me and they can't say why.

Speaker 1 (00:30:46):

Yeah. What's funny is talking about this topic of people not being able to identify technically what it is that they're hearing. The most important thing though is they are able to identify whether they like it or not, and as an engineer or a producer mixer, that should be your biggest indicator of everything. Do they like it or do they not like it? It doesn't matter if they understand what they're hearing or not, they understand if they like it or they dislike it. I remember on the internet for a while, there were lots of people in groups and forums talking shit about musicians not understanding what they were doing, like having suggestions but not understanding the proper technical terms for them, make it sound like it's in space and then the joke would be like, well then it would be silent. That's not what they meant.

(00:31:37):

But what I think is funny about that is you shouldn't get mad at the musician for that. They're asking you to do your job. Your job is to interpret that and use your technical skills to make it sound a certain way. Their job is to write the music and play the music and be the band. If they were the engineer, they'd be engineering it too. So getting mad about that is stupid because it's part of the job description I think to figure out how to interpret what it is that people mean by that you're supposed to have a more developed ear and you're supposed to have more developed tastes and you're supposed to be a musical interpreter

Speaker 2 (00:32:18):

And it's important to get your ego in check as well when it comes to that because in the end it's their music and they ask you to produce it or record it or mix it or whatever, and it's your job to give them their music on CD later or whatever medium. And obviously you're an artist too as a mix engineer or producer, so you've got your stamp on it and obviously should take pride in that and put your own taste into that, why they come to you. But in the end it's their art. So it's very difficult I think to, and I see that myself sometimes you feel like when you get the mixed revisions, the revision lists, you feel like, okay, you're destroying the mix.

(00:33:07):

You have to tell yourself it's still their music, so they have to walk out happy with it later. So it's your duty to give them what they want, but obviously try to not ruin the mix. If you think, okay, if you do that, and usually it's this louder, that louder, that louder, that louder thing, it ruins everything. So you could either just do that, make it louder, they said it should be louder and you ruin the mix and no one is happy, still not going to like it because louder is not going to solve it. Or what we talked about earlier is it's your job to figure out why do they want it to be louder? Does it really have to be louder or is it a problem in the arrangement? For example, everything is playing the same thing in the same or similar range and that's why you can't hear it. Do you have to clean up there? So it's your job to find out what to do to make them happy, even if it's not exactly what they say you should do. They say

Speaker 1 (00:33:59):

When they tell you what to do, they're not really telling you what to do, they're telling you why they don't like it, and it's important to know the difference between them telling you why they don't like something. So they're saying that needs to be louder. What they're saying is, I don't like how I'm hearing this right now.

Speaker 2 (00:34:16):

Yeah, son, you have to figure out why is that? Is it the arrangement or is the frequencies clashing? And so you untangle that whole thing, tweak it, and then they said, now it's louder. I love it. What they meant is more audible, but yeah, they said louder, but still it's your job to make them happy in the end. And I think that's very difficult sometimes to not be well, almost offended by revisions. You spend so much time on the music then that you kind of think it's your own baby and it kind is to a degree, but you're an artist too, and you put your stamp on it and you made it your own at least a little bit, but in the end you have to give it back to them and have to make them happy. And that's quite a difficult compromise sometimes.

Speaker 1 (00:35:00):

Well, it's unnatural, right? It's unnatural to just be cool with mix revisions. I think every single mixer I've ever known has at some point in their career gotten annoyed or pissed or furious about mixed notes. But the thing is that it's typically earlier in their careers and then they learn to deal with it and then they learn, they make themselves grow up. Basically. It's the most natural thing in the world to get the mixed notes back and be like, fuck you, you're wrong. I think that that's the most natural thing. You have to force yourself to grow up a little bit and chill out and think of the bigger picture. I think after you've done it for a while and you've been through that enough, there could come a point where mixed revisions no longer piss you off, but I think that it's the natural state for most people when they're first experiencing that to have a reaction to it

Speaker 2 (00:36:03):

And it's fine to disagree and it's fine to tell them. So I think, but well, if I disagree with a mixed revision, I tell them why I think that's wrong while I tell them, making this louder won't solve it. You just end up making that louder, that louder, that louder. There's stuff clashing, mute the lead guitars. You don't need the lead guitars in this bit. There's already fucking heard of Gerdy, so I try to explain to them why I think it's a bad idea to do that, but in the end it's their call. It's not like I'm not going to say, no, I'm not doing that. Fuck you. I was working with a band that, yeah, the previous album was mixed by a very famous producer and mixed engineer and so he sent the first mix back and half the tracks were missing. I said, well, the tracks. Yeah, the Shauna shed, I just muted them. That's it, deal with it. Alright. Or another band again working with a famous producer this time, not from that Scandinavian country but from the other one. They got the song back and all the triplets and the drums came out as dotted notes then. So he just changed the rhythm for everything. I said, well, I like it this way, deal with it. Well that's not our song, but yeah, fuck

Speaker 1 (00:37:15):

It. It's a fine line because there are some cases where the mixer made the right call by muting some things where they just said, fuck it, I'm going to take this risk. I believe that this stuff shouldn't be here. I'm trying to help the band. And then the band liked it and agreed, but then there's other times where it backfires miserably. So it's a fine line.

Speaker 2 (00:37:41):

You should at least try to explain why you think it's better.

Speaker 1 (00:37:45):

At least give them two versions

Speaker 2 (00:37:46):

And if they disagree, they say No, this is our thing we wanted in there. You have to do it. You have to keep it in there I think because it's their music.

Speaker 1 (00:37:54):

I agree. I think that bands respect it if you have an opinion, but that doesn't mean they have to agree with you. And I think that there's always a place for you to be able to make your suggestions where if you get an arrangement with a ton of extra things in them in the arrangement that cloud the mix that are pointless and you send them one mix with one without, and you say, look, I think this is better, it's just clearer, it's better for this and this and this reason, and they say, sorry, we just don't agree with you. That's it, that's life.

Speaker 2 (00:38:29):

Yeah, I think the problem is that they know what's in there and they want to hear it. So they reference to whatever city they love and they say, this is perfect, but with this city, with ours, now I know there's this little flute line there or this little high head dly thing and I can't hear it. This is not perfect. What they don't see is that this perfect city that they're referencing to all the time has got the same thing. The JAMA of that perfect city also complained that he can't hear this one ride hit in the middle of the chorus or that, dunno whatever, like leak guitar has got a weird sounding pinchon or whatever the thing is, all the ingredients, you bring the ingredients as an artist, so what's in there and you want to hear it all and what you're referencing all to is you just hear the result. You don't know the ingredients. So it's a very unfair comparison really. And that's sometimes something that's quite difficult to explain to the band that well, this is better even if you don't hear the little flute line because it's fucking with the vocals and the vocals are very important there.

Speaker 1 (00:39:35):

Hey everybody, if you're enjoying this podcast then you should know that it's brought to you by URM Academy, URM Academy's mission is to create the next generation of audio professionals by giving them the inspiration and information to hone their craft and build a career doing what they love. You've probably heard me talk about Nail the mix before, and if you're a member, you already know how amazing it is. The beginning of the month Nail the mix members, get the raw multitracks to a new song by artists like Lama God Angels and Airwaves, knock Loose Opeth Shuga, bring me the Horizon. Gaira asking Alexandria Machine Head and Papa Roach among many, many others over 60 at this point. Then at the end of the month, the producer who mixed it comes on and does a live streaming walkthrough of exactly how they mix the song on the album and takes your questions live on air.

(00:40:27):

And these are guys like TLA Will Putney, Jen Borin, Dan Lancaster to Matson, Andrew Wade, and many, many more. You'll also get access to Mix Lab, which is our collection of dozens of bite-sized mixing tutorials that cover all the basics as well as Portfolio Builder, which is a library of pro quality multi-tracks cleared for use in your portfolio. So your career will never again be held back by the quality of your source material. And for those of you who really want to step up their game, we have another membership tier called URM Enhance, which includes everything I already told you about and access to our massive library of fast tracks, which are deep, super detailed courses on intermediate and advanced topics like gain, staging, mastering low end and so forth. It's over 500 hours of content. And man, let me tell you, this stuff is just insanely detailed.

(00:41:21):

Enhanced members also get access to one-on-ones, which are basically office hour sessions with us and Mix Rescue, which is where we open up one of your mixes and fix it up and talk you through exactly what we're doing at every step. So if any of that sounds interesting to you, if you're ready to level up your mixing skills in your audio career, head over to URM Academy to find out more. You bring up a very good point about referencing other people's music. Usually the argument producers make when a band will reference somebody else's music is they'll say something like, you're comparing this to a $200,000 recording that took six months and you have a week. It's unrealistic. But I've never thought that that's a good comparison to use because then you make the band think well. So it's financial reasons. I don't think that that's a good approach.

(00:42:14):

I think what you just said though is the best approach is that you actually don't know what went into this. You weren't there. You actually don't know how the band feels about it. You don't know if this is what they wanted, what they didn't want, if they feel about it the way you feel about yours, you have no idea. You just hear it as an outsider and you're never going to be able to hear your own music. As an outsider though, that is a hard thing for people to understand. It's the idea that if you're in a band, you're never going to be able to see your own band play live. You're never going to know what you actually sound like to an audience member.

Speaker 2 (00:42:49):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is even more a problem or more the case rather with the younger unexperienced or inexperienced bands, the more inexperienced they are, the less they have this bit of professional distance to the album they're producing or recording. And I think a band that's been around the block and told a lot and released a lot of album albums have learned how that works and that there's only so much space on the sonic canvas and you can't have a house and a boat and a set of clouds and the tree and a dark and everything massive in the middle of the picture. It just doesn't work. It goes away a bit with the more experienced the bands are. It's still there sometimes, but it kind of goes away because with a very inexperienced young band, especially the first time in the studio, it's so exciting for 'em for us.

(00:43:41):

And we often forget that we work in a studio every fucking day and it's often boring and it's very normal. And for them it is the first time in the studio and they took time off their work or school or whatever and took a lot of money in their hands and come here and then they're told, well, you can't play your own guitar because it sounds shit. Also, he's playing your bass tracks because he's better at it and we only need one rhythm guitar. Guitar is playing it, for example, whatever. By the way, you kick suck, we're going to replace them. And obviously that's very frustrating and especially for a young man, they think they're going to sound like machine head and then the producer tells them, well, half of your stuff is shit. Maybe in less direct words, but essentially that's what happens. Yeah, so that's very frustrating for 'em, obviously.

(00:44:41):

And on your third or fourth album, you kind of know that the drill, you kind of know that, well, if I want machine head tied rhythm guitars, I have to use it or I have to do it like machine head are do in it and it's one guitarist playing the rhythm guitars period. I want the bass to lock in with the guitars it does on that Nevermore record, do it like that on that recording. And I'm not saying there aren't quite often actually times where you don't have to do that or where you're going for a different kind of sound, but it's so difficult if you reference to something and then insist that you're not using the same methods. I want to sound the drums to sound like Fear factory, but no samples, no triggers. It happens all the time, but yeah. Well, alright then.

Speaker 1 (00:45:32):

Yeah. Okay. So I think that there's a big difference between getting a mixed revision and getting a note. That might be the wrong technical suggestion, but it's still an indicator that they don't like the direction it's going or they don't like it. I think that's very different than a band having completely unrealistic expectations at the same time that you do have to learn to interpret what someone is looking for. If what they want is just not possible the way that they want to do things. It's also your job to let them know. It's a tough conversation though because not very many people who aren't very experienced are really going to believe you when you say, when you tell them those things that you have to do it a different way that you got to do it this way. I think that it's a small number of people who will have that first studio experience and basically get told that half their stuff is shit and that they have to do things a certain way and who will say, okay, we're new here, tell us how to do it. Every

Speaker 2 (00:46:38):

Time I'm doing that I feel bad. This is a Simpsons episode where this Willy guy just, and then they do this slowmo thing where they say, well this is exactly the moment his heart breaks and he's going. And that's kind of what happens too and I hate doing that, but they pay me money and for them, especially if it's a young man or just students or whatever, it's a lot of money. It can be a lot of money and they want a good result for it. And my job is to give them the best possible results. So I tell them about the methods we have to use to get there and if that means hurting some feelings in the process, sometimes that might be necessary and in the end they walk out happy. It's much better than them spending a lot of money walking out with something they hate. Then you are the asshole and they're unhappy. So

Speaker 1 (00:47:32):

Yeah, the worst thing is when people start saying about a band or a producer, he's a really nice guy or they're really nice guys, immediately they think the band or the producer sucks and the last thing you want is for them to be like, what did you think of the recording? What did you think of your experience there? Well, he's a really nice guy because you know that they say that, so yeah, so you didn't offend anybody and you let them get their way with everything, but they're not happy with how it came out. They think you suck.

Speaker 2 (00:48:04):

Yeah, exactly. And the feedback I often get and I'm very happy about is when a band leaves the studio and says the song is better now than it was before or I'm a better musician now and I know what to work on and

(00:48:16):

I'm much better now than I was before just because they dunno, you pointed out things to them like the way they palm you this weird or inconsistent and all this little nagging you do during the recording that they usually never heard just in the rehearsal space, massive volume, never double tracking themselves and so they never really heard those little inconsistencies in the palm meetings and how one is ringing out longer than the other and the next one has got little buzz on it. And so during the process of recording all those little tiny things you point out all the time if you do it and if you convey and communicate that properly and they take it to heart and work on it and they work out saying, I learned something and I'm better now and this made the song better, that's my job done then or part of the job anyway.

Speaker 1 (00:49:06):

How often have you experienced it where somebody comes to the studio and you really have to coach the shit out of 'em, but they're just not quite ready, you're able to make it work, but it's a rough experience for them and then they come back a year or two later and they're way better. They took the lessons from that experience as a wake up call and got serious about their instrument and come back and are actually better.

Speaker 2 (00:49:34):

That happens very often with lead guitarists that come here and the first thing they do is just sweep across the fretboard and just play crazy leads and crazy solos and then it's time to track rhythm guitars. And you're like, well, you suck kind of at rhythm guitars. And those people have put so much work their guitar playing and learned and practiced so much to get all those lead chops down that it's very frustrating, yet motivating for them to see. That's a whole nother word of guitar that I'm just inadequate, yet

Speaker 1 (00:50:11):

I can see that happening because they are already work really hard, so they already have the work ethic. They already are serious about their instrument. They just neglected something important.

Speaker 2 (00:50:22):

And I guess it happens with very inexperienced young guys too. It's just the difficult thing there is once I start working, I totally forget about how much they're paying me. So it doesn't matter if it's the biggest brand in the world with a massive budget or some local band without a budget at all. So if I take the job and I'm doing it, it's always 100%. So I always have the same goal to make it the best possible. And if it's the local band and it's the first thing and they've just been playing guitar for half a year or drums or whatever, I still have the same goal and the same drive to make it perfect. It's just more work and it might be a bit less satisfying in the end because I might not get there, but I still want to give everything and get the best possible result. Obviously

Speaker 1 (00:51:17):

It's very rare for me to have experienced a situation where someone came in not ready and then came back ready a year or two later. It's happened a few times, but most of my experience is someone comes in not up for the challenge and then isn't in music two years later.

Speaker 2 (00:51:36):

Yeah, yeah. I guess that's more often the case.

Speaker 1 (00:51:39):

That's more often what I've seen. Every once in a while though, I will get people or have gotten people where it almost traumatized them a little bit, how unprepared they were, they thought they were prepared. I'm not talking about the type that's super lazy who just fucks around and then comes to the studio and sucks. I'm talking about the type that thinks they're ready for the studio, comes to the studio and they're not ready and it's a shock to their system. They totally thought they were. I've seen that type basically, like I said, get traumatized enough to really put in a lot of work, but it's super rare. It's

Speaker 2 (00:52:14):

The ideal, but I don't think it's happening often either because if they think they're ready, it's not easy to admit that they aren't. It's much easier to say the producer sucked or the engineer sucked and that's why it sounds shit.

Speaker 1 (00:52:27):

Yeah, that's why I never listened to a band when they say they had a bad experience with a producer, unless it's multiple bands saying the same thing, or I know the producer and I know that what they're saying is accurate because I've been around them or something.

Speaker 2 (00:52:44):

The same is true the other way around for bands, that guy's complicated, that guy's a diva and well, let's see how it works in the studio. And maybe he's a diva, but maybe he's not. It's just as life persona and he's the kindest, sweetest guy in the studio. Then

Speaker 1 (00:52:58):

How do you go about establishing a rapport with bands when you first meet them? How do you get comfortable around them or get them comfortable around you?

Speaker 2 (00:53:09):

Same way I did with girls. I'm not really doing anything. I've always been rather shy and I always let the girl walk up to me, talk to me, and then I just improvise and I'm good at improvising. And the same with a band. I've never done this very in your face kind of promoting myself going to a band I'm a producer one, are you going to record your next record? And who's going to do it? It's me. I've never done that. I just can't do that. So I just sit around and sometimes people walk up to me and talk to me and then I answer them, but that's actually a difficult thing too. So often I've heard that I'm very arrogant and that's exactly where that comes from. So I'm just sitting backstage, some festival working or whatever and I just don't like to annoy people.

Speaker 1 (00:53:54):

So you're being quiet because you don't want to be rude, but they think you're being arrogant.

Speaker 2 (00:54:00):

Exactly. So I'm arrogant now. Exactly. So it happens all the time. So he is just sitting there arrogant and he's just not talking to anyone.

Speaker 1 (00:54:07):

I think in the US we call that resting bitch face.

Speaker 2 (00:54:10):

That's my, yeah. Describes quite well I think.

Speaker 1 (00:54:14):

So you've had situations where you didn't even talk to somebody, but they decided you were arrogant just because you were being quiet.

Speaker 2 (00:54:21):

Yeah, all the time. Especially backstage

Speaker 1 (00:54:24):

Happened to me too.

Speaker 2 (00:54:25):

Yeah, really just don't want to be rude. Sometimes it's weird, sometimes you don't even know. People know you. So you see some dude backstage that dunno, that's in some band or something and you just don't want to be that guy like, Hey, and what are you doing and how are you doing? And so I just don't say anything and sometimes they walk up to me and it turns out they know me already and know who I am and I'm like, why? I just don't want to assume that I'm interesting enough for them to interrupt the meal, for example, if it's backstage or whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:55:00):

I think that that's good backstage etiquette to stay out of people's way. That's what I learned at least.

Speaker 2 (00:55:05):

Yeah, still it happens all the time that you just talk to people because there with a band or people and things ease up later and you're having a drink or whatever and just people talk and I'm not shy in that way that I then sit around and don't talk. I like to talk to people and I like to communicate and everything. I just don't like to walk up to people and promote myself. So I've never done that.

Speaker 1 (00:55:28):

When people say that networking is very important, which I do think it is, I mean you need to have a strong network of friends and contacts in order to have a career in music. Things won't happen without that. You won't get backstage without that. You won't be in the situation where you'll even be able to have someone come up to talk to you if you haven't built some sort of a network. However, where people get it wrong is that networking and building that doesn't have to involve annoying the shit out of people and walking up to everybody and selling yourself. So that's where a lot of people get it wrong. I think that the way that it's done is just by hanging out with people and letting relationships develop organically and being patient.

Speaker 2 (00:56:16):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (00:56:17):

Being very, very patient.

Speaker 2 (00:56:18):

That's exactly what I was just going to say. Just have them develop organically and it takes time, but it's much more rewarding really and much more lasting too. Those relationships that just develop over time, they still exist in two years after COVID on the next nm. So you might not have seen the guy for three years, but he's still going to say, Hey, wow, good to see you again and talk about S or whatever. It is different in Europe compared to USA when it comes to marketing in general. This very bold in your face telemarketer kind of thing just doesn't work at all here. I'm not sure it works for everyone in the USS a, I'm not saying that, but I'd see it much more from over there to this the best you have to have this and as soon as someone tells me this is the best and you have to work with me and fuck no, I'm not interested. And I think that's very European, especially very German German way. If you try to sell your services, I'm not interested. If I want something I am asking around, I'm looking, I'm getting recommendations, but if you come to me, I assume you're not really good because else you wouldn't have to come to me. You would just be there and wait until I come to you. And that's kind of how it works. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (00:57:33):

I mean that's kind of what I've always understood too about if you want to get signed, the best way to do it is to build your band up to the point where labels hear about you and then approach you if you're approaching labels. I mean there's some exceptions of course, but if you're approaching labels by and large they're going to ignore you by and large, same as you're approaching managers by and large they're going to ignore you. Now obviously there's a difference between say a huge band fires their manager and everyone in the industry knows that this band is now on the market and they're approaching managers. That's a different scenario than an unknown band approaching managers when you're ready. This is something that the adults always used to tell me when I was an impatient kid that when you're ready these things will present themselves.

(00:58:28):

And I always thought to myself, that's bullshit. You're just saying that. How can they just present themselves? I don't believe in that kind of shit. I don't believe in fate and that kind of stuff. I don't believe everything happens for a reason or any of that stuff. I don't think that stuff is just going to present itself magically because the universe is a nice place and it wants me to succeed. But what they meant was when you're ready, meaning you've built something that's attractive to those kinds of people where those types of people will find it valuable. There's a way in this industry that word gets around. If you actually build something worthy of their attention, they will find out about it. If it's not worthy of their attention, they're not going to end of the story.

Speaker 2 (00:59:15):

And obviously you have to deliver and do good work and everything, but that's a given. Yeah, like you said, it just develops organically and you end up in a place that you might be shocked about. It just makes Dave Ellison's new band

Speaker 1 (00:59:28):

Pretty fucking cool.

Speaker 2 (00:59:30):

This is amazing. The way things like that happen is organically really. It's not like you contact Dave Elon or something. So it just worked with another band and Mike Heller just happened to be the drummer in that band. Mike Heller's drummer for Fear Factory, Raven Malignancy and everything.

Speaker 1 (00:59:47):

I've known that guy for a long time.

Speaker 2 (00:59:49):

He's a great guy. So he's quite happy with my work then. And then he had another couple of projects that he was never so happy with the drum mixers on the other stuff he did or other mixers did for him and he loved what I did. So he just wanted me to mix essentially every project he was involved with. And that happened then to be a lot of very, very cool projects with very cool people. And then all of a sudden Dave Elon's playing bass on that project and he insists on me mixing it. So I do a test mix, Dave Elson stoked. I mix the record and that's just one example. There's so many stuff like that where if you would've told me that 10 or 20 years ago, 20 years ago, it was vacuum festival in front of the stage being like, wow, there was just superstars.

(01:00:34):

And you sit and talk with the same guys and you realize that it happens organically, it just develops. And I don't think you would get to the place if you're promoting yourself too aggressively. They see through it and the much better way is to just make it happen one step after the other and convince with quality and not only with quality. I think equally important is be a person that's fun to be around or that is fun to work with because especially in the studio where you work three weeks on a project recording or longer or whatever, if you're not fun to be around, it doesn't matter if you've got the best snare sound in the world, the band's not going to like working with you again.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):

Yeah. I'm not trying to say that you have to make them happy or bend and twist and pretend you're someone you're not if they're going to see through it. But there's normal interaction with people, even if it's people that you considered to be superstars or that actually are superstars. If they work with you, they see you as an equal. And if you treat them like this godlike superstar all the time, I don't think they expect you to deliver quality work. You probably aren't. If you're still always doing the ward thing, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):

They're going to agree with you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):

Yeah. How can they trust you that you are actually professional delivering good work. So if that means telling someone like Dave Elon 16 bit in Garageman isn't going to cut it well so be it. Because what he wants to hear, he wants the best quality. And if that means, I tell him it's just an example now anyone will work but I'll tell him this is wrong or this is try this or there's a bum note or whatever and you have to forget or ignore the fact that this is superstar that you used to admire for the last fucking 30 years at that moment it's not at that moment or she is just a musician you're working with.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):

It's funny you say that. I just landed for one of the companies, the biggest thing I've ever landed. For us, it's major and it came through a contact that I've had for 15 years where we've worked on some stuff and then not worked on some stuff and had a few failed ideas and then this happened and I watched said person that we're going to work with earlier work related to what we're going to do with them and it's all terrible going back through their whole history. It's all terrible and I mean this person's amazing, but specifically what we do, educational stuff, it's all terrible. The worst. My thoughts are that whoever was working with him was afraid of him, was afraid to say that's not good enough or afraid. They were afraid of his persona. They were probably worshiping him and didn't do the job. For me, one of the most important things is it doesn't matter who you're working with, if they're working with you, especially if they are at a higher level, they got to that higher level by having higher standards. So for some reason, whatever reason that may be, they believe that you fit into that idea of theirs of higher standards. So quit worshiping them and deliver those higher standards.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):

Exactly. Especially in that field that you are good in. If you're a recording engineer and you just know about interfaces and ADEs and what microphone to use for his home recordings or violin, that's why they work with you. They don't know that they're just the best violin player or the best singer or whatever, but they still dunno what Mike to use and it's your fucking job to get the best possible results. So tell them, sorry, but you set it up wrong again, it's clipping again. You have to do it again. So you're going to think you annoy them and you maybe do because you just, or she just thought they delivered the best possible take and then they have to do it again because it's fucking clipping. But yeah, it's clipping. So fucking do it again. Tell them and make them do it again and they're going to be happy in the end because it's not going to sound like shit. And if you just said, oh, this is best thing I've ever heard because you admire them and it sounds like shit later, well you're not going to get another job from them.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):

The unhappiness that you save in that moment of being scared to say something is going to come back tenfold later when they're pissed off with the result. If they're happy with the result, they're going to forget that you annoyed them to redo that thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):

Nobody thinks about that stuff. It has to be a really bad experience. Say that the result is really good on a record, it comes out great and there was some stress making it. There always is. Most of that shit gets forgotten. It has to be really, really bad. If the result is good, the stress has to be amazingly bad for that to be an issue in the future. I mean sometimes you hear about bands that went to a producer, the record went platinum or multi-platinum and then they refused to go back because they thought that working with that producer was psychological torture and they don't care how successful it is, they're never going to go back ever again. But it's got to be on that level. I think if you're successful, I don't just mean record sales successful artistically too with the record, you deliver what they want unless it's like torture to work with you, they'll probably forget that and go back to you probably. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):

Don't make it torture to work with you, but

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):

Don't make it torture to work with you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):

But it's easy to not be a total cunt and just be anal, be meticulous about things, they appreciate it and make them do it again and again and again if necessary.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):

Well those types that I've heard about who are psychological torture artists, I've talked to a few of them on the podcast, they are fucking assholes. I am not going to say who on here, but when I spoke to them on the podcast, I was like, oh, okay. I believe the bands now. I couldn't imagine being locked up with you for a month or two. That would be horrible. But it's really only three or four people that you hear that about

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):

And it's usually ego that gets in the way then

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):

And usually not that many people put out platinum records. There's not that many producers capable of creating platinum records. And then out of the ones who do, it's very few who are not really cool people because how do you get to that level without being cool with people. So one last thing I want to talk about is your synesthesia. I know we talked about it last time for people who are not familiar, basically it's a condition where you see sounds as colors. I don't want to retread what we spoke about, but it's such an interesting condition that considering that it's been a few years, I'm just wondering if it has changed at all or you've developed new workflows as a result of it or it's just kind of stayed the same or what?

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):

I haven't really thought about it that much to be honest, because when I grew up it was always very normal for me. That first day was green, dark green. And I thought it was the same for everyone really. And not necessarily green, but for me it was very self-explanatory that everyone had colors for the weekdays. I was quite, I don't want to say old, but older when actually learned that it's not the case and it's not normal and other people don't see thirsty as green or even any color. That's the same with music. For me, it's just so normal for me that I don't really think about it. So I'm not doing it consciously at all, most of the time anyway. It's very much the same when you have an entry result for a mix of challenge you want to go through, it's just a different kind of put in that into words or thoughts, you know where you want to go with that.

(01:08:35):

And for me, that's in colors. So I know this is kind of like a dark blue purplish mix or I wanted a bit more brown grayish, which for me would kind of mean more like grainy sound a bit drier. And so just could easily be used as synonyms. So instead of saying make the guitars a bit drier and a bit grainier, a bit less saturated, I could just say make them less dark blue purple and a bit more gray sounding. So it's not for me anyway, it's not so special. I've been doing it all the time like that and that hasn't really changed at all, but I'm just not thinking about it much.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):

It's just how you think. Still think it's really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):

It's really weird. Maybe

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):

This was popular on the internet for four days last year. I don't even know it was an actual study or not. You know how things are on the internet these days. Somebody will say something and then it'll get on the news and

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):

Everyone's an expert.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):

Yeah, everyone's an expert or somebody will give an opinion and the news will push the opinion as though it's like a fact and nobody knows anything. So I'm going to say that this got popular on the internet for four days. It sounded like it was a study, and I'm just saying this to protect myself from people who will be like, it wasn't a study, it was just some article. The idea though that some people don't make images in their mind when they have thoughts that there are people who don't see anything when they're thinking things and this blew people's minds. Psychopath.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):

Psychopath.

(01:10:13):

Yeah, I know might be possible. It might be true, but I just can't imagine one of things. I can't imagine it either of things. You can't imagine it. How do you convey how you hear music? Same thing. It is my red, my strawberry, the same red as your red, or what you call red maybe is the same as I see green, that kind of thought, I can't look into your head and you can't look into mine. So it's very, very difficult I think to imagine how that would be. Because even if you want to imagine that even just to the process of imagining that

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):

You're imagining something

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):

Involves those fucking pictures that they don't have. So you're already using tools and methods that they don't have. So it's just a different language. You can't do it. It's like thinking about the fourth or fifth dimension. It's weird though. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):

I feel like they're lying. It

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):

Must be.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):

I just can't understand it. I can understand synesthesia.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):

How do you read a book?

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):

Yeah, exactly. How do you read a book? And they were explaining that it was something about how they do have thoughts but they just don't see things. I don't understand how you read a book or how do you even daydream? I don't get it. But apparently they're fully functional people. I think they're lying. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):

Probably lying. Alright, well LA thank you very much for taking the time. It's been a pleasure catching up with you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):

It's been my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):

And yeah, good luck with the plugin and everything else. Fucking

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):

Fantastic. Always fun talking to you. Likewise.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):

Alright then another URM podcast episode in the bag. Please remember to share our episodes with your friends as well as post them to your Facebook and Instagram or any social media you use. Please tag me at al Levi URM audio at URM Academy and of course tag our guest as well. I mean, they really do appreciate it. In addition, do you have any questions for me about anything? Email them to [email protected]. That's EYAL at M dot aca, DEMY. And use the subject line answer me Al. Alright then. Till next time, happy mixing. You've been listening to the Unstoppable Recording Machine Podcast. To ask us questions, make suggestions and interact, visit URM Academy and press the podcast link today.